2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: irishd on July 20, 2020, 03:21:59 AM
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In their efforts to slow gun sales and make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain, register and use legally purchased firearms, is the Honolulu Police Department violating state law HRS 0134-0003 by preventing / stalling the registration process as is required within 5 days? and under what authority were they given to
circumvent this law? I'm sure they will use the "Covid-19" as a reason, but that still isn't justification to prevent persons who have legally obtained a firearm from doing what is mandated by law. Thoughts on this matter....?
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the City and State have been using this pandemic to create their own rules for what ever reasons. Not only with our rights but they've been targeting businesses i.e. legal vacation rentals.
Most people don't care and are glad to follow rules; thus we have a govt. that is not afraid of the people. They will continue to strip our rights away
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the City and State have been using this pandemic to create their own rules for what ever reasons. Not only with our rights but they've been targeting businesses i.e. legal vacation rentals.
Most people don't care and are glad to follow rules; thus we have a govt. that is not afraid of the people. They will continue to strip our rights away
"Most people don't care and are glad to follow rules; thus we have a govt. that is not afraid of the people. They will continue to strip our rights away"
My rights were granted to me by a higher power, in my case, I call him God.
I do not violate any Constitutional Federal, State, or county law.
The biggest threat to my health, safety, and welfare is the governments
we created or support. Government and their agents are a necessary
evil, but they are still evil.
This Mantra has served me well for almost 65 years.
I only follow their "rules" when forced to at "gunpoint".
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the City and State have been using this pandemic to create their own rules for what ever reasons. Not only with our rights but they've been targeting businesses i.e. legal vacation rentals.
Most people don't care and are glad to follow rules; thus we have a govt. that is not afraid of the people. They will continue to strip our rights away
And once government gets a taste of this power they will never give it back. Can you imagine how long it would take for the US Supreme Court to over rule these unconstitutional laws? And that’s assuming that the Supreme Court justices will rule by the constitution. This country is done.
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The registration period "has been suspended" by Ige's 8th Emergency Proclamation. But there is the caveat in that it is entirely at the sole discretion of the Chief. Which is legal fuck you speak for "if you good little slaves, we no bother you. You make a stink we come take'um and trow you in da kine place maybe tree-fo days"
Sections 134-3(a) and (b), HRS, registration, mandatory, exceptions, to
the extent necessary such that the chiefs of police of the counties, in their sole
discretion, may suspend the deadline whereby a person must register a firearm
within five days after arrival in the State of the person or firearm, whichever
arrives later, and the deadline whereby a person acquiring a firearm pursuant to
section 134-2, HRS, must register the firearm within five days of acquisition.
Page 19
https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2005088-ATG_Eighth-Supplementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-distribution-signed.pdf
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it also created a power/authority for non-LE citizens to setup checkpoints
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V. Suspension of Laws
The following laws are suspended, as allowed by federal law, pursuant to section 127A-13(a)(3), HRS, in order for county and state agencies to engage in emergency management functions as defined in section 127A-2, HRS:
...
Sections 134-3(a) and (b), HRS, registration, mandatory, exceptions, to the extent necessary such that the chiefs of police of the counties, in their sole discretion, may suspend the deadline whereby a person must register a firearm within five days after arrival in the State of the person or firearm, whichever arrives later, and the deadline whereby a person acquiring a firearm pursuant to section 134-2, HRS, must register the firearm within five days of acquisition.“
Do we even need to register firearms purchased during the emergency proclamation if the law is suspended, as allowed by federal law ?
8)
What does suspended mean?
Law is not in effect during period of proclamation?
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If someone went to a free state and bought a long gun manufactured before 1994, which is when the HI long gun reg went into effect (IIRC), from a private party who never reg it, how would anyone know if said person did not already own it prior to 1994 and therefore was not required to reg said firearm? Of course all you young guys born after 1975 cannot use that excuse as you would have to be at least 18 years old in 1993. This whole reg system is ineffective and punishes only the law abiding citizens like us.
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If someone went to a free state and bought a long gun manufactured before 1994, which is when the HI long gun reg went into effect (IIRC), from a private party who never reg it, how would anyone know if said person did not already own it prior to 1994 and therefore was not required to reg said firearm? Of course all you young guys born after 1975 cannot use that excuse as you would have to be at least 18 years old in 1993. This whole reg system is ineffective and punishes only the law abiding citizens like us.
1968 was the first time federal law set down an age limit for buying guns from an FFL: 18 for long guns and 21 for handguns. There was no age minimum for owning or possessing a firearm, so private transfers to minors was still legal.
"In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act doubled down on the inconsistencies in gun purchasing age limits. This law said that you had to be 18 to possess or buy a handgun, while still leaving in effect the 1968 law’s stipulation that licensed dealers could only sell handguns to persons 21 and over." This is why there's a weird inconsistency in the laws, as some pointed out in Hawaii's law, too, before it was recently changed. When buying a handgun from an FFL, you had to be 21 per the 1968 gun laws. But, you could buy at a gun show or from a friend at age 18 per the 1994 law. HI's law focused on permits for age 21, and registrations for age 18. Totally inconsistent until changed.
Still, the 1994 law did not set a minimum age for buying or owning a long gun. That's federal law, and since Hawaii seems to have copied federal law for the most part through at least the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994, I would have to guess the same existed at that time.
If anyone here remembers specifically when the age limits for long guns were created in HI law, or has done the research, it would answer the question.
If our laws aligned with federal, then long guns acquired prior to 1994 can be grandfathered with regards to registration regardless of how old you were before then. If a handgun, same thing if it was acquired in a private transaction.
Big "if". :geekdanc:
https://www.history.com/news/gun-age-limits-history
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Yeah, and I foolishly sold my 20 gauge, 22LR, 270 WIN, 30-06, 7MM MAUSER, 7MM REM MAG and 30-30 WIN all purchased in the 1960s, after I graduated from high school in '68 and moved to Oahu. I owned all those guns while still in high school. I have regretted it for decades, ever since 1994.
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In their efforts to slow gun sales and make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain, register and use legally purchased firearms, is the Honolulu Police Department violating state law HRS 0134-0003 by preventing / stalling the registration process as is required within 5 days? and under what authority were they given to
circumvent this law? I'm sure they will use the "Covid-19" as a reason, but that still isn't justification to prevent persons who have legally obtained a firearm from doing what is mandated by law. Thoughts on this matter....?
Laws cannot be written so as to fully accommodate every situation that may arise. Situations arise where business cannot be done as normal and you have to improvise.
Quite frankly if they give us this extra time to register our firearms I am not going to complain. They aren't targeting anyone for failure to register firearms.
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Laws cannot be written so as to fully accommodate every situation that may arise. Situations arise where business cannot be done as normal and you have to improvise.
Quite frankly if they give us this extra time to register our firearms I am not going to complain. They aren't targeting anyone for failure to register firearms.
Wrong.
Instead of creating a bottleneck (HPD gun permit & registration process) that can prevent the legal acquisition of firearms in cases such as the pandemic shutdown, those laws can be rewritten to allow background checks at the point of sale and completely eliminate gun registration.
It's not hard to write laws that accommodate every situation. Just don't write draconian laws that serve no legitimate purpose.
Super easy -- barely an inconvenience. :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
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Laws cannot be written so as to fully accommodate every situation that may arise. Situations arise where business cannot be done as normal and you have to improvise.
Quite frankly if they give us this extra time to register our firearms I am not going to complain. They aren't targeting anyone for failure to register firearms.
The state should not be in the “business” of gun sales. Your thoughts on the topic are the reason hawaiis gun laws are the way they are. I can’t even sign up for an appointment for a permit to acquire.
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The state should not be in the “business” of gun sales. Your thoughts on the topic are the reason hawaiis gun laws are the way they are. I can’t even sign up for an appointment for a permit to acquire.
There are two economies in the world.
I'd explore the other one, where you don't
pay the GET or fill out forms.
You will have legally acquired, but
they won't allow you to register.
Then the time is on their nickle
not yours.
A law that can not be followed cannot
be prosecuted, just yet in America.
Think outside the box.
Think outside of Hawaii.
Big world out there.
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Wrong.
Instead of creating a bottleneck (HPD gun permit & registration process) that can prevent the legal acquisition of firearms in cases such as the pandemic shutdown, those laws can be rewritten to allow background checks at the point of sale and completely eliminate gun registration.
It's not hard to write laws that accommodate every situation. Just don't write draconian laws that serve no legitimate purpose.
Super easy -- barely an inconvenience. :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
Ok, lets write section 134 so that each and every law in it will encompass anything and everything that could ever happen. Police station burns down, aliens attack, a pandemic happens, a tsunami happens, etc etc.
They are doing what they can based on what the situation is giving them. They could pack people in a line like usual but then they would be violating covid19 orders. Is it perfect? No, of course not, they had to rush it into place but all things considering I think the system is actually quite decent. The reservation system is nice so you don't have to stand in line for 2 hours and they are giving us extra leeway in registering our firearms. Usually people complain when government makes it harder to register firearms but you are complaining that they made it easier.
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The state should not be in the “business” of gun sales. Your thoughts on the topic are the reason hawaiis gun laws are the way they are. I can’t even sign up for an appointment for a permit to acquire.
The state isn't in the business of gun sales unless I missed something. Did I miss HPD's last gun sale?
Why can't you sign up for an appointment for a permit to acquire?
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The state isn't in the business of gun sales unless I missed something. Did I miss HPD's last gun sale?
Why can't you sign up for an appointment for a permit to acquire?
I cannot purchase a firearm without the state saying I can, I consider that to be a part of the business.
Go on the website and try to make an appointment for permit to acquire you’ll see what I mean.
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Ok, lets write section 134 so that each and every law in it will encompass anything and everything that could ever happen. Police station burns down, aliens attack, a pandemic happens, a tsunami happens, etc etc.
They are doing what they can based on what the situation is giving them. They could pack people in a line like usual but then they would be violating covid19 orders. Is it perfect? No, of course not, they had to rush it into place but all things considering I think the system is actually quite decent. The reservation system is nice so you don't have to stand in line for 2 hours and they are giving us extra leeway in registering our firearms. Usually people complain when government makes it harder to register firearms but you are complaining that they made it easier.
Why are you so immature? You offered nothing more than a tantrum.
Go take a time-out. Maybe you'll think of something more productive to offer.
The "situation" given to them? Did you MISS the press conference where the POLICE DEPARTMENT is pushing for even more gun control laws?
"Given to them". LOL!! Right!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Ok, lets write section 134 so that each and every law in it will encompass anything and everything that could ever happen. Police station burns down, aliens attack, a pandemic happens, a tsunami happens, etc etc.
They are doing what they can based on what the situation is giving them. They could pack people in a line like usual but then they would be violating covid19 orders. Is it perfect? No, of course not, they had to rush it into place but all things considering I think the system is actually quite decent. The reservation system is nice so you don't have to stand in line for 2 hours and they are giving us extra leeway in registering our firearms. Usually people complain when government makes it harder to register firearms but you are complaining that they made it easier.
Easier? LOL!
Is it really "easier" when you have to wait 3 months to get an appoint to APPLY for a permit and 2 week wait while the firearm sits in the FFL's safe and your credit card or bank account has already been debited the purchase price?
Easier for the Cops -- not for the gun buyer. I'd rather waste 3 hours in line and get my permit 2 weeks after paying for the gun than have to wait 3 months to apply plus wait another 2 weeks. You do know you have to pay for the gun before applying for a handgun permit, right?
Critical thinking. :wacko:
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Easier? LOL!
Is it really "easier" when you have to wait 3 months to get an appoint to APPLY for a permit and 2 week wait while the firearm sits in the FFL's safe and your credit card or bank account has already been debited the purchase price?
Easier for the Cops -- not for the gun buyer. I'd rather waste 3 hours in line and get my permit 2 weeks after paying for the gun than have to wait 3 months to apply plus wait another 2 weeks. You do know you have to pay for the gun before applying for a handgun permit, right?
Critical thinking. :wacko:
Easier when you are supposed to register within 5 days and they give you 3 months. :thumbsup:
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Why are you so immature? You offered nothing more than a tantrum.
Go take a time-out. Maybe you'll think of something more productive to offer.
The "situation" given to them? Did you MISS the press conference where the POLICE DEPARTMENT is pushing for even more gun control laws?
"Given to them". LOL!! Right!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
One word:
NUANCE
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Ok, lets write section 134 so that each and every law in it will encompass anything and everything that could ever happen. Police station burns down, aliens attack, a pandemic happens, a tsunami happens, etc etc.
They are doing what they can based on what the situation is giving them. They could pack people in a line like usual but then they would be violating covid19 orders. Is it perfect? No, of course not, they had to rush it into place but all things considering I think the system is actually quite decent. The reservation system is nice so you don't have to stand in line for 2 hours and they are giving us extra leeway in registering our firearms. Usually people complain when government makes it harder to register firearms but you are complaining that they made it easier.
You are the absolute worst.
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You are the absolute worst.
He's just repeating his boss' the Police Chief's sentiments.
If HPD really wanted to make it easier, they would eliminate the 2 week wait if you already had to wait that long for an appointment. The 2 weeks is supposed to be a "cooling off" period, not extra time to do a background check. They could easily finish that in 3 days or less. Does anyone really believe waiting 2 weeks BEFORE applying for a permit is going to "cool you down" any less than having to wait 2 week AFTER applying?
Yeah. They really want to make the process easier for buyers. :wacko: :rofl: :rofl:
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You are the absolute worst.
I’ve been saying that for years! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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You are the absolute worst.
Sorry I don't live in a fairy tale land powered by idealism. I would like a better system as much as the next guy but I know its not that simple for the department to satisfy both the gun law chapter and the cover orders in a way that will satisfy all.
Hence nuance.
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Sorry I don't live in a fairy tale land powered by idealism. I would like a better system as much as the next guy but I know its not that simple for the department to satisfy both the gun law chapter and the cover orders in a way that will satisfy all.
Hence nuance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f36w3GPoGz0
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Sorry I don't live in a fairy tale land powered by idealism. I would like a better system as much as the next guy but I know its not that simple for the department to satisfy both the gun law chapter and the cover orders in a way that will satisfy all.
Hence nuance.
Really? I can think of one if they want to make everyone wait. Why don't they just do what California, Hawaii's big communist brother does and allow the FFLs to do the BG checks. Still have to wait 10 days (and up to 30 now in COVID). CA makes everyone who want to exercise their right do the BG, obtain a Firearms Safety Certificate and take a test in safe handling. And while I object to all of those things, at least their system is still functioning. And according to the vendors on the site, when purchases/transfers are made, they fax all the info right to HPD so it should not be any problem with communication. The NICS system is fairly instant (that would be the instant part of the NICS acronym). The decision to oppress us lies solely at the feet of the legislature and the chief.
Hawaii is broke dick. They don't give a shit about our rights. They just want to control us.
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He's just repeating his boss' the Police Chief's sentiments.
If HPD really wanted to make it easier, they would eliminate the 2 week wait if you already had to wait that long for an appointment. The 2 weeks is supposed to be a "cooling off" period, not extra time to do a background check. They could easily finish that in 3 days or less. Does anyone really believe waiting 2 weeks BEFORE applying for a permit is going to "cool you down" any less than having to wait 2 week AFTER applying?
Yeah. They really want to make the process easier for buyers. :wacko: :rofl: :rofl:
One way to disprove this "cooling off period" BS is to look at how many people opt out of acquiring a firearm after waiting 2 weeks. I'd bet that number is non existent
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One way to disprove this "cooling off period" BS is to look at how many people opt out of acquiring a firearm after waiting 2 weeks. I'd bet that number is non existent
Not sure that's true.
If the buyer already paid for the gun, they are stuck buying it -- perhaps to turn around a resell it if they have "cooled off?"
Most FFLs have an "all firearm sales are final" policy unless you are denied your permit. They can't legally transfer the gun to you without the permit.
Just thinking out loud -- on a keyboard. :geekdanc:
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Thinking about this further....
Maybe there needs to be a law prohibiting "all sales are final" gun store policies? (sarcasm alert!)
The reasoning would be:
if a person bought the gun, then decided after the 2 week wait not to go forward with their planned use of it -- whatever that might be -- the store policy almost pushes the buyer past a "point of no return" (pun intended). Rather than lose hundreds on a purchase by never picking it up, they're more likely to get it, register it, and have it on hand should they once again change their mind or decide to use it in some other irresponsible way later.
I say, if they have second thoughts, don't force them into a corner. :geekdanc:
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Really? I can think of one if they want to make everyone wait. Why don't they just do what California, Hawaii's big communist brother does and allow the FFLs to do the BG checks. Still have to wait 10 days (and up to 30 now in COVID). CA makes everyone who want to exercise their right do the BG, obtain a Firearms Safety Certificate and take a test in safe handling. And while I object to all of those things, at least their system is still functioning. And according to the vendors on the site, when purchases/transfers are made, they fax all the info right to HPD so it should not be any problem with communication. The NICS system is fairly instant (that would be the instant part of the NICS acronym). The decision to oppress us lies solely at the feet of the legislature and the chief.
Hawaii is broke dick. They don't give a shit about our rights. They just want to control us.
Generally I find incompetent bureaucracy a much more plausible and accurate explanation than some malicious intent.
What I was getting at with the covid situation is that they are stuck trying to satisfy two different laws at the same time that can't be both fully adhered to. They can't both socially distance and cram in every person who is waiting for their permit. So they are sort of stuck breaking one law or the other. Thats where I think they are trying to do what they have to do while balancing between two laws that make enforcing the other difficult. .
I have my own ideas on how to improve the permit to purchase system and even contacted my representatives but that hasn't really gone anywhere. But that is a separate topic.
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The firearm owners protection act - federal law, says gun registration is illegal. Why has no one on this forum ever said anything about this? S.49 - Firearms Protection act, public law 99-308.
"No regulation may require... ...the establishment of any system of registration of firearms, firearm owners or of transactions"
So what, if I violate local or federal law against thousands of people, threatening them with prison or death for non-compliance, I get an air conditioned office and taxpayer funded salary, too?
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The firearm owners protection act - federal law, says gun registration is illegal. Why has no one on this forum ever said anything about this? S.49 - Firearms Protection act, public law 99-308.
"No regulation may require... ...the establishment of any system of registration of firearms, firearm owners or of transactions"
So what, if I violate local or federal law against thousands of people, threatening them with prison or death for non-compliance, I get an air conditioned office and taxpayer funded salary, too?
They enacted the registration requirement before FOPA was enacted, and the FOPA prohibits a federal registration, not state level. That is why they cannot list us on the Federal FBI RAPBACK report just because we are gun owners, and have not been doing so, they would be breaking federal law. That is why it still stands.
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It applies to the states. It says "No regulation may require the transfer of records required under this act to a facility owned, managed or controlled by the United States or any state, or the establishment of ANY SYSTEM OF REGISTRATION OF FIREARMS, FIREARM OWNERS OR FIREARM TRANSACTIONS."
This is one sentence of the legislation, meaning, it encompasses the act of both transfer of records of class 3 shit and ANY OR ALL ATTEMPTS AT FIREARM OR FIREARM OWNER REGISTRATION by FEDS OR STATES.
Hawaii state govt. is committing a federal felony with every demand of a registration by threat of prosecution and threat of using lethal force to uphold the arrest. If the state gets to violate federal law, so should I. I am going to refuse to report any lobsters of U.S. origin I suspect are over 15 Lbs. and caught without a proper license. (DEAR FEDERAL AGENTS, THIS POST WAS MADE IN JEST. I DO NOT AND HAVE NOT CONSPIRED OR HAVE WILLINGLY ATTEMPTED TO VIOLATE ANY U.S. CODE)
"They enacted the registration requirement before FOPA was enacted..." -moot. Ex post facto only applies to acts against citizens by the gov. This legislation renders pre-existing legislation null. Then again, so does the constitution, bill of rights and many, many court decisions as precedent ruling any law that is in violation of constitutional law or exercise of constitutionally protected rights as null. Which also means Hawaii state govt. is in grave, egregious violation of constitutional and federal law and we need a metric fuckton of arrests downtown.
The next time someone makes a thread saying "We gotta 'fight' X gun control bill", remember Hawaii state govt., thanks to Karl Rhoads and organized crime/DNC/Soros cash, illegally claims we citizens cannot change, create or stop the laws they make. This is a direct violation of the 1A, which protects our right to petition the system as citizens. Nothing will change without these fucks being led off in handcuffs.
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Since FOPA is a Federal law, anything in it is assumed to affect only the Federal government unless otherwise stated. The first part of that FOPA sentence is specified to apply to the states. The second part is separate and does not.
It could violate rapback depending on how the system is setup, were not sure exactly how the connection works from the State to FBI. We're looking into challenging it in the future.
Repealing registration itself would have to occur at the local level and would be very difficult. On the hierarchy of things to change, it would be harder than getting CCW passed but easier than getting machine guns.
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It applies to the states. It says "No regulation may require the transfer of records required under this act to a facility owned, managed or controlled by the United States or any state, or the establishment of ANY SYSTEM OF REGISTRATION OF FIREARMS, FIREARM OWNERS OR FIREARM TRANSACTIONS."
This is one sentence of the legislation, meaning, it encompasses the act of both transfer of records of class 3 shit and ANY OR ALL ATTEMPTS AT FIREARM OR FIREARM OWNER REGISTRATION by FEDS OR STATES.
Hawaii state govt. is committing a federal felony with every demand of a registration by threat of prosecution and threat of using lethal force to uphold the arrest. If the state gets to violate federal law, so should I. I am going to refuse to report any lobsters of U.S. origin I suspect are over 15 Lbs. and caught without a proper license. (DEAR FEDERAL AGENTS, THIS POST WAS MADE IN JEST. I DO NOT AND HAVE NOT CONSPIRED OR HAVE WILLINGLY ATTEMPTED TO VIOLATE ANY U.S. CODE)
"They enacted the registration requirement before FOPA was enacted..." -moot. Ex post facto only applies to acts against citizens by the gov. This legislation renders pre-existing legislation null. Then again, so does the constitution, bill of rights and many, many court decisions as precedent ruling any law that is in violation of constitutional law or exercise of constitutionally protected rights as null. Which also means Hawaii state govt. is in grave, egregious violation of constitutional and federal law and we need a metric fuckton of arrests downtown.
The next time someone makes a thread saying "We gotta 'fight' X gun control bill", remember Hawaii state govt., thanks to Karl Rhoads and organized crime/DNC/Soros cash, illegally claims we citizens cannot change, create or stop the laws they make. This is a direct violation of the 1A, which protects our right to petition the system as citizens. Nothing will change without these fucks being led off in handcuffs.
You missed a part.
"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."
I don't like it, but that's what it is. Highlights the importance of VOTING RIGHT, once enacted into law, it is very difficult to go back.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926