2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: zippz on July 29, 2020, 08:39:16 AM
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Who would take Masaad Ayoob's Deadly Force Instructor class if it was offered in Hawaii? This is a $1,200 5 day all classroom course (no live fire) covering the legal aspects of deadly force to teach others, used in a firearms and CCW classes, and give you the skills necessary to testify in court. A group of us were taking it on the mainland but got postponed due to the quarantine. One member attended the class and said it was overwhelming information and a.very good class.
Need honest answers. I know the cost and time requirements are very high. Currently in talks with Mas, trying to get a feeler on demand here.
https://massadayoobgroup.com/deadly-force-instructor-class/
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Not even a little bit. #JustBeingHonest
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Too much for me.
#alsoJustBeingHonest
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This is a very niche class and it's a difficult sell since we don't have CCW yet. But it applies to defense in the home or in public with other weapons. We do need people trained in it if we're going to make a big push for CCW in the future. I plan on teaching a couple CCW instructor classes next year and this goes perfectly with that.
If we can meet the class numbers to get him over here then I'll try and arrange for a short seminar for everyone else.
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That is a lot of money for just a classroom presentation. Even if he is super sharp on the subject and an excellent instructor $1,200? If he wrote an excellent book maybe I could see $100.
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That is a lot of money for just a classroom presentation. Even if he is super sharp on the subject and an excellent instructor $1,200? If he wrote an excellent book maybe I could see $100.
I agree. That's 1 semester class at HPU.
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That is a lot of money for just a classroom presentation. Even if he is super sharp on the subject and an excellent instructor $1,200? If he wrote an excellent book maybe I could see $100.
you've never heard of him?
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you've never heard of him?
I have heard his name but no one is that good.
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From watching ASP and listening to the Polite Society Podcast, (besides his wealth of knowledge) I think he volunteers himself as an expert defense witness if any of his students go to trial for defensive use of a firearm
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If he offered a live fire course here might be interested
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From watching ASP and listening to the Polite Society Podcast, (besides his wealth of knowledge) I think he volunteers himself as an expert defense witness if any of his students go to trial for defensive use of a firearm
For how much? Or is it for free if you take his class?
Actually it doesn’t really matter. I can’t afford that class anyway.
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Who would take Masaad Ayoob's Deadly Force Instructor class if it was offered in Hawaii? This is a $1,200 5 day all classroom course (no live fire) covering the legal aspects of deadly force to teach others, used in a firearms and CCW classes, and give you the skills necessary to testify in court. A group of us were taking it on the mainland but got postponed due to the quarantine. One member attended the class and said it was overwhelming information and a.very good class.
Need honest answers. I know the cost and time requirements are very high. Currently in talks with Mas, trying to get a feeler on demand here.
https://massadayoobgroup.com/deadly-force-instructor-class/
So, taking this class qualifies you to teach others and makes you an expert witness in court? I guess if you want to become a firearms "trainer" it would be one course of many in the daisy-chain. Not my area of interest, so put me down for a "no.
I've been to dozens of 1 day workshops and trainings (in other subject areas), and a few 2-day workshops. Usually by the time lunch is finished I'm so brain-dead the rest of the day is a blur. Ask me the next day what some of the key takeaways were (see, I know the lingo) and I couldn't tell you squat. 5 days? $1200? Hell no (honestly).
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Very tempting especially for the access to his wealth of insight, and he knows how to get a lot of information through a short amount of time by telling great stories. If I could make a career move out of it then I would do it, but without CC in Hawaii there is not much of a market for instructors.
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I would decline based on what was mentioned earlier. No CCW in Hawaii.
Maybe a seminar of Home Defense and Property Defense pertinent to Hawaii residents and I'll look into it. And not $1200.
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This class isnt used just for CCW, but also home defense or on the streets whether it be with a gun, a baseball bat, or fists. Also to help others in trouble. It basically helps you to save yourself or others from going to prison for a long time. Attorneys can only do so much for you. You have to help yourself. For example If you go to trial it's usually recommended to stay silent cause most people don't know what to say or will say the wrong thing. This class gives you the skills to say the right thing to save yourself or others.
Mas is one of the top legal self defense experts in the country. Basically the go to guy of the older shooting community both in shooting skills and legal knowledge. He's pretty low key so you don't hear from him much, but he's better than anyone on any popular YouTube channel.
The class is long, like 9 or 10 hours a day for 5 days. Again it's not for everyone. Firearms instructors, attorneys, gun rights activists, law enforcement.
This knowledge is needed in Hawaii to push for CCW, not for after we get it or after an incident hapoens. The problem with the gun community is everyone is reactive instead of proactive.
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The class is long, like 9 or 10 hours a day for 5 days. Again it's not for everyone. Firearms instructors, attorneys, gun rights activists, law enforcement.
This knowledge is needed in Hawaii to push for CCW, not for after we get it or after an incident hapoens. The problem with the gun community is everyone is reactive instead of proactive.
I fall under the "it's not for everyone" category. I just feel that I am not as knowledgeable in the above matters to get the full benefit of the class and for $1200 a lot of the stuff they will cover will go over my head.
But if they would let people "sit in" (with a fee of course) on certain subjects and not the whole curriculum then I would be interested. I know I need to get more knowledgeable on these things but for me I need to take baby steps. This course is too advanced.
Even though I don't think it is for me I hope there is enough interest where he can come and share his wealth of knowledge.
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I fall under the "it's not for everyone" category. I just feel that I am not as knowledgeable in the above matters to get the full benefit of the class and for $1200 a lot of the stuff they will cover will go over my head.
But if they would let people "sit in" (with a fee of course) on certain subjects and not the whole curriculum then I would be interested. I know I need to get more knowledgeable on these things but for me I need to take baby steps. This course is too advanced.
Even though I don't think it is for me I hope there is enough interest where he can come and share his wealth of knowledge.
He has a book that's very easy to read.
https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=masaad+ayoob&qid=1596136203&sr=8-1
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This knowledge is needed in Hawaii to push for CCW, not for after we get it or after an incident hapoens. The problem with the gun community is everyone is reactive instead of proactive.
He is definitely a living legend and part of me wants to do it just to get to meet him, but I am having difficulty making the connection of how taking this class would lead to CCW. If there was something more concrete it might be worth considering, like if someone was starting up a consulting company and was hiring instructors then I could justify the expense.
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I just downloaded Ayoob's book on Scribed.
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$1200 is not doable for me.
I just downloaded Ayoob's book on Scribed.
I would need to know who Mr. Ayoob is also, this would be a good start.
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$1200 is not doable for me.
I would need to know who Mr. Ayoob is also, this would be a good start.
Masaad Ayoob can be found on a lot of You Tube videos on subjects like Firearms use, home defense, CCW, etc. He is an all around expert in defensive use of firearms. His resume is extensive and too numerous to mention.
And he's been around for a long, long, time. In my younger years (in the early 80's) he was in every gun and rifle magazine around. Harder nowadays because a lot of the retail outlets don't carry firearm magazines. I remember working as a stock clerk at Foodland and I would go to the magazine rack on my breaks to read the gun magazines with him in it.
Do a search on Masaad Ayoob. Lots of videos of him out there.
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Masaad Ayoob can be found on a lot of You Tube videos on subjects like Firearms use, home defense, CCW, etc. He is an all around expert in defensive use of firearms. His resume is extensive and too numerous to mention.
And he's been around for a long, long, time. In my younger years (in the early 80's) he was in every gun and rifle magazine around. Harder nowadays because a lot of the retail outlets don't carry firearm magazines. I remember working as a stock clerk at Foodland and I would go to the magazine rack on my breaks to read the gun magazines with him in it.
Do a search on Masaad Ayoob. Lots of videos of him out there.
I've seen him through the years and know he has a lot of training in firearms, isn't he a former police officer? I'm wondering about how he acquired his knowledge of the law, does he have a law background seeing as he's giving legal advise.
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I've seen him through the years and know he has a lot of training in firearms, isn't he a former police officer? I'm wondering about how he acquired his knowledge of the law, does he have a law background seeing as he's giving legal advise.
Massad F. Ayoob (born July 20, 1948) is an American firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques
and civilian self-defense to both law enforcement officers and private citizens since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal
Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, from 1981 to 2009, and now operates his own company.[1] Ayoob has appeared
as an expert witness in several trials. He served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and retired in 2017
with the rank of Captain from the Grantham, New Hampshire, police department.
...
While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney;
he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
(NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.[3][4] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management
of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but
are never taught in law school.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob
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He is definitely a living legend and part of me wants to do it just to get to meet him, but I am having difficulty making the connection of how taking this class would lead to CCW.
I have a list of goals myself and the firearms community has to meet in order to get CCW passed through the legislature. One of them is to get at least 5 knowledgeable and skilled constituents in each of the 51 districts. So 255 total. If Trump loses this election, then the legislature could be the only option for us for the next 10 to 20 years. We need a group of subject matter experts who have credibility and in-depth knowledge of self-defense and ability to analyze it to talk to lawmakers and the community. Not just stuff you see on youtube or find in a Utah CCW class. The instructors can then teach others in the gun community through seminars and CCW classes so they are adequately knowledgeable and can talk to legislators too.
The other thing is the lack of legal training overall. Every time a legal gun owner screws up, it gives the gun community a black eye. Most gun owners just got a very minimal overview of self-defense laws if any. How many people here have even read Hawaii's self-defense laws in the HRS or can even find them?
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I've read the Hawaii self defense laws and would be interested in classes that discusses the laws, the implications, and different scenarios that can occur in Hawaii self-defense situations.
When it is written in lawyer-speak I have a hard time interpreting it and a seminar/class that puts the jargon into layman terms would be nice.
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I've read the Hawaii self defense laws and would be interested in classes that discusses the laws, the implications, and different scenarios that can occur in Hawaii self-defense situations.
When it is written in lawyer-speak I have a hard time interpreting it and a seminar/class that puts the jargon into layman terms would be nice.
All you need to know, HPD has already given you:
Is defending your life really worth having to defend your decision in court and possibly lose everything you own?
Just get a big dog.
--paraphrased
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I think what would benefit this industry is some form of standard accreditation.
FM 7-8 tactics won't be convincing in a civilian court. I've watched some instructors with courses designed around that and called it self-defense.
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Review of the most recent DFI class, the one our group was supposed to go: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/august-2020-presidents-message
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$1200 for all classroom is a no for me. When you mentioned in another thread, I thought maybe if it included live fire. There were some good folks that I've seen articles about MA partnering up with for firearms instruction and that context got me interested. Looking at it the course info closer, I can see value. For something like this, I would think an online course would be more viable. Greatly reduce cost, which I assume a good portion would be for travel, for all.
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There's about a 50/50% chance the class will take place in Hawaii. Mas has also agreed to hold a short seminar for law enforcement.
If you're strongly considering going, please comment. I'll be contacting you to discuss the class.
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For $1200 is he going to come and be an expert witness to testify on your behalf if you have to use lethal force to protect yourself?
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For $1200 is he going to come and be an expert witness to testify on your behalf if you have to use lethal force to protect yourself?
Yup, but it also includes any of his other self-defense courses too. I don't think it covers while on LE duty though, I'm not sure.
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For $1200 is he going to come and be an expert witness to testify on your behalf if you have to use lethal force to protect yourself?
This is a Deadly Force Instructor class. You should be able to help prepare your own defense as well as call on other students to act as expert witnesses on your behalf.
This is not a real estate investment seminar where you get free notary services. :wacko:
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Yup, but it also includes any of his other self-defense courses too. I don't think it covers while on LE duty though, I'm not sure.
I think one thing that might make a difference is how big of a class are we talking? One instructor for 5 students and I think you are going to get a much better value than say 25 students to 1 instructor.
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I think one thing that might make a difference is how big of a class are we talking? One instructor for 5 students and I think you are going to get a much better value than say 25 students to 1 instructor.
Based on current gov't guidelines, 8 or fewer students. That leaves room for the instructor and a classroom administrator.
10 people max.
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I think one thing that might make a difference is how big of a class are we talking? One instructor for 5 students and I think you are going to get a much better value than say 25 students to 1 instructor.
The attendee is going to get a better value based on number of class attendance? ???
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I think one thing that might make a difference is how big of a class are we talking? One instructor for 5 students and I think you are going to get a much better value than say 25 students to 1 instructor.
Looking at a class of between 15 to 20 locals and a bunch from the mainland for 2 instructors. They just did a class in Arizona with 47 people last month, the one our group was supposed to attend if not for the quarantine, and it got good reviews.
A 1 to 5 ratio is not realistic unless you're thinking live-fire or other things that require a lot of supervision.
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Looking at a class of between 15 to 20 locals and a bunch from the mainland for 2 instructors. They just did a class in Arizona with 47 people last month, the one our group was supposed to attend if not for the quarantine, and it got good reviews.
A 1 to 5 ratio is not realistic unless you're thinking live-fire or other things that require a lot of supervision.
Optimistic about travel quarantines and restrictions on sizes of gatherings ending by then, are you?
:thumbsup:
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Optimistic about travel quarantines and restrictions on sizes of gatherings ending by then, are you?
:thumbsup:
It is after the elections.
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It is after the elections.
And right in the middle of the "normal" flu season. :shake:
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The attendee is going to get a better value based on number of class attendance? ???
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Yup. Makes it easier to ask questions and whatnot.
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Yup. Makes it easier to ask questions and whatnot.
Yeah, I can see that. However, through experience it trying to get instructors to come to Hawaii (shooting, medical, etc), 5:1 ratio is not really feasible. I mean I guess in theory, but not reality. Unless you can get someone or a group to sponsor all or a majority of the cost.
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Yeah, I can see that. However, through experience it trying to get instructors to come to Hawaii (shooting, medical, etc), 5:1 ratio is not really feasible. I mean I guess in theory, but not reality. Unless you can get someone or a group to sponsor all or a majority of the cost.
Yep. Just getting enough tuition-paying students to cover airfare, hotel and rental car will be difficult. Then you have to compensate the instructors (I'm sure he's not going to be here alone) for their time.
Out of that comes taxes, Medicare, and other payroll deductions, not to mention any overhead cost for administration personnel. Not everyone has time to set up their own travel plans and do all the planning when they are busy lecturing and preparing course materials.
Big picture ....
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Yeah, I can see that. However, through experience it trying to get instructors to come to Hawaii (shooting, medical, etc), 5:1 ratio is not really feasible. I mean I guess in theory, but not reality. Unless you can get someone or a group to sponsor all or a majority of the cost.
Agreed. I just threw out a number. I would actually expect at least a 10:1 ratio. If you start going over 20:1 I think the quality of education suffers.
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This is more akin to a law school course. Not quite up to that level but getting close to it. Law school at UH costs about $6,000 per 40 hour class. So $1,200 is a pretty good deal if you look at it that way.
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This is more akin to a law school course. Not quite up to that level but getting close to it. Law school at UH costs about $6,000 per 40 hour class. So $1,200 is a pretty good deal if you look at it that way.
I wonder though, what legal weight does his courses cary though? So say you get a course graduate certificate, what weight does that carry, who recognizes it, etc? I know that in and of itself it doesn't make you an expert witness in court.