2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: aieahound on September 08, 2020, 09:52:31 PM
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See Heavies Sept 15th thread above.
Does that mean if someone already possesses one they’re OK but can’t transfer And no one can acquire after Sept. 15th ?
§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled.”
Does it mean we have to Register uppers acquired after Sept. 15th and engrave them with a serial number ?
Can’t acquire an upper without a serial number ?
“ "Firearm receiver" means the part of a firearm that provides housing for the firearm's internal components, including a hammer, bolt, breechblock, action, or firing mechanism.
“ If the firearm has been assembled from separate parts and an unfinished firearm receiver, the entity that registered the firearm receiver shall be recorded in the space provided for the name of the manufacturer and importer, and the phrase "assembled from parts" shall be recorded in the space provided for model. ”
How do you the get the registration number before the firearm is registered ?
“ If the firearm has no serial number, the registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration.“
This is some dumb shit and confusing
Should I even be asking these questions ?
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So does that mean a stripped ar15 upper cant be bought without a serial number already on it
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All good questions....inquiring minds wanna know
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To me it sounds like as long as you have equal parts to make a firearm, you're OK. So 2 barrels, 2 triggers, etc... you also need 2 registered receivers. But if you have 2 of everything, and 1 reg receiver and 1 unregistered receiver, then you fall into #3 above.
That last part about housing components like the bolt. So they're combining an upper and lower together for an AR which need to be registered.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM
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so this chunk of aluminum would need to be registered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyAsZcGsPH0&feature=emb_logo
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To me it sounds like as long as you have equal parts to make a firearm, you're OK. So 2 barrels, 2 triggers, etc... you also need 2 registered receivers. But if you have 2 of everything, and 1 reg receiver and 1 unregistered receiver, then you fall into #3 above.
That last part about housing components like the bolt. So they're combining an upper and lower together for an AR which need to be registered.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM
That’s the confusing parts.
What’s an unregistered receiver. A spare upper ? (Under the new definition of receiver)
And upper and lower together?
If someone has .22 LR, 5.56, 7.62, 6.8 Uppers for one lower, are they all registered as the same firearm.
Caliber - Multiple?
Shits confusing.
Must engrave the registration number on it prior to registration. That’s just dumb.
And are 80’s grandfathered as it only references transfer, printing or acquiring ?
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And are 80’s grandfathered as it only references transfer, printing or acquiring ?
There is no grandfather clause
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"Firearm receiver" means the part of a firearm that provides housing for the firearm's internal components, including a hammer, bolt, breechblock, action, or firing mechanism. "Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means."
The first part qualifies an AR upper received. But the 2nd sentence would make it not because the upper is not a frame of a firearm. IDK if I'm reading it correctly. So uppers might be OK.
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There is no grandfather clause
The way I read it is you can keep the receiver blanks you have if you put a serial number on them & register them with HPD BEFORE milling them (kind of a waste of time if you screw it up and throw it away).
Once the deadline passes, you can't have unserialized/unregistered "receiver parts" that can be used to make "ghost guns" -- i.e. firearms that don't have serial numbers and are unregistered.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpret it.
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The way I read it is you can keep the receiver blanks you have if you put a serial number on them & register them with HPD BEFORE milling them (kind of a waste of time if you screw it up and throw it away).
Once the deadline passes, you can't have unserialized/unregistered "receiver parts" that can be used to make "ghost guns" -- i.e. firearms that don't have serial numbers and are unregistered.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpret it.
I wonder since it's a long wait to register anything, does Kirks waiver also include the above?
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I wonder since it's a long wait to register anything, does Kirks waiver also include the above?
If you have an appointment, it establishes intent to register. If no appointments are available, print out a screenshot as proof that you are actively trying.
Should not be a problem.
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If you have an appointment, it establishes intent to register. If no appointments are available, print out a screenshot as proof that you are actively trying.
Should not be a problem.
What are your thoughts about uppers that house the bolt? Am I correct or wrong?
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since an assembled upper doesn't have a serial number, this is now illegal?
its already assembled. never had a serial number to begin with
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What are your thoughts about uppers that house the bolt? Am I correct or wrong?
wrong
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I think my friend has a glock conversion kit to shoot .22.
I guess that would apply too?
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I think my friend has a glock conversion kit to shoot .22.
I guess that would apply too?
It should not.
The receiver for a Glock is a single piece. A conversion kit doesn't include the receiver/frame.
That's different than an AR with an upper and lower receiver. An AR is where the confusion comes in, because lawmakers have no idea what they are doing.
ATF started the problem by defining a firearm receiver. They didn't consider how that definition doesn't apply to an AR-style receiver.
So, a guy was arrested (in CA I think) for having receivers that he was not allowed to possess. He argued that, by ATF definition, the lowers are not receivers. He won the argument.
Now some states are trying to say the upper and lower receivers each count as receivers, because the ATF definition describes parts that are housed in both. The more accurate approach would be to list the AR as an exception to the definition, so the lower is treated as the receiver, and the upper is not -- exactly as it has always been being treated.
Unfortunately, they decided to make the solution "bolt onto" the existing ATF definition instead of trying to get the ATF definition changed. Idiots.
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There is no grandfather clause
The way I read it is you can keep the receiver blanks you have if you put a serial number on them & register them with HPD BEFORE milling them (kind of a waste of time if you screw it up and throw it away).
Once the deadline passes, you can't have unserialized/unregistered "receiver parts" that can be used to make "ghost guns" -- i.e. firearms that don't have serial numbers and are unregistered.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpret it.
Where is the illegal to possess or possession of part ?
I’m sure it’s there but I couldn’t find it ( don’t have ctrl F on my tablet )
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Where is the illegal to possess or possession of part ?
I’m sure it’s there but I couldn’t find it ( don’t have ctrl F on my tablet )
"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled.
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So if i buy a complete rifle from a local gun store.
And it has the word "multi cal" and serial number on the lower. But the top has no serial number...
I cannot register it?
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So if i buy a complete rifle from a local gun store.
And it has the word "multi cal" and serial number on the lower. But the top has no serial number...
I cannot register it?
if you read the words, it says in essence if a gun manufactured by a federally licensed manufacturer or if sold by a federally licensed dealer, nothing has changed. The firearm will be registered by the buyer in accordance with the (old) statute section 134-3(c).
The new rules only apply if you are "assembling" (building) your firearm from parts you bought yourself -- in particular any that are required to have serial numbers but do not at time of purchase. The confusion comes when store-bought AR receivers (not 80% blanks) are purchased and registered separate from an upper receiver, as the new definition appears to include the upper in the definition of "receiver" now.
Someone is going to have to sue the state to get a ruling on the exact application of the new statute.
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This law is poorly written. It would seem to make an upper a firearm as well but it mentions parts serialized under federal law even though federal law doesn't require serial numbers on uppers.
I do see one workaround though, if we become licensed manufacturer we appear to be exempt. Under HRS 134-31 we can become license manufacturers for only $10 but it has to be renewed every year.
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This law is poorly written. It would seem to make an upper a firearm as well but it mentions parts serialized under federal law even though federal law doesn't require serial numbers on uppers.
I do see one workaround though, if we become licensed manufacturer we appear to be exempt. Under HRS 134-31 we can become license manufacturers for only $10 but it has to be renewed every year.
good luck with that
let us know when you get your license...
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good luck with that
let us know when you get your license...
I will ask my friend at the gun store how hard it was to get his. I do already make gun parts though, just not the parts that make it go boom.
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"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled., purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled.
(Bold emphasis added. Red highlighting omitted as didn’t transfer in the quote function)
It keeps referring to purchasing, manufacturing or obtaining
Is obtaining not future tense ?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obtain?src=search-dict-hed
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtain?s=t
Can you obtain something you already had ?
I guess one could have obtained it years ago. But obtained is not in the language of the law.
It doesn’t say “or having obtained”
Do the words possess ever appear ?
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It keeps referring to purchasing, manufacturing or obtaining
Is obtaining not future tense ?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obtain?src=search-dict-hed
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/obtain?s=t
Good observation. This would seem to indicate older parts being grandfathered in. Most other laws seem to include the word possess but this one omits it.
So I think in court they would have to prove you got/made the part after the law. Oops, I lost my receipt for this when I bought it last year.
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I will ask my friend at the gun store how hard it was to get his. I do already make gun parts though, just not the parts that make it go boom.
A 01 is different than an 07
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Interesting that obtain vs. posses.
Looks like another law like rifle mags that lots will think are limited to 10rds. Some shops wont sell AR uppers, others will.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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There are already prohibitions and penalties for possession of a firearm by prohibited persons.
So, all the new law needs to do is stop the acquisition of unserialized (ghost gun) receivers.
Once an 80% blank is serialized and registered, it ceases to be capable of assembling a ghost gun.
Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number
Possession is not included, but "obtaining" pretty much covers it.
As for the grammar experts' analysis:
A verb ending in -ing is either a present participle or a gerund. These two forms look identical. The difference is in their functions in a sentence.
A present participle is most commonly used as part of the continuous form of a verb, after verbs of perception, after verbs of movement, or as an adjective.
The gerund always has the same function as a noun, although it looks like a verb. It can be used in the same way as a noun.
In the context of the statute, the verbs "Manufacturing, purchasing, [and] obtaining" function as nouns. e.g. "The defendant was found guilty of manufacturing an unserialized firearm without a license." "Manufacturing" is the object of the preposition "of", which would make it a noun functionally.
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There are already prohibitions and penalties for possession of a firearm by prohibited persons.
Is this relevant ? We’re talking about persons who are not prohibited as far as I know.
So, all the new law needs to do is stop the acquisition of unserialized (ghost gun) receivers.
Didn’t see acquisition in the law anywhere. Or acquired.
Thanks for the English lesson though.
Didn’t know running could be construed to be a noun. “He was guilty of running through a stop sign.”
Something new everyday I guess.
I still question your analysis though.
But appreciate the input. :shaka:
It still reads like obtaining is post effective date of the new law.
And if they wanted to be unambiguous and mean possess, the word possess would clearly have been included.
But it wasn’t.
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Is this relevant ? We’re talking about persons who are not prohibited as far as I know.
Didn’t see acquisition in the law anywhere. Or acquired.
Thanks for the English lesson though.
Didn’t know running could be construed to be a noun. “He was guilty of running through a stop sign.”
Something new everyday I guess.
I still question your analysis though.
But appreciate the input. :shaka:
It still reads like obtaining is post effective date of the new law.
And if they wanted to be unambiguous and mean possess, the word possess would clearly have been included.
But it wasn’t.
They don't make possession illegal after Sept 15 if you register them with serial numbers. if you still have it after Sept 15 and didn't register, they'll get you for failing to register.
Read the bill for yourself. The purpose is to prevent people WHO ARE PROHIBITED from being able to obtain firearms though other-than-controlled means. Being able to buy blanks for receivers without background checks lets PROHIBITED PEOPLE buy parts to assemble a firearm with no serial numbers and no registration.
If you aren't prohibited, just take the current blanks you have into HPD for registration before Sept 15. Once it's registered as a firearm (even though it's not), it's no longer "ghost gun" capable.
Obtained == acquired. Synonyms. Since "acquire" is used all though the permit process statutes, they probably wanted to use another word since no permit is being used to "acquire" the non-firearm blank. Just a guess.
If you ever took real English classes where you diagramed sentences, you might remember phrases like:
was running
will be running
has been running
will have been running
etc.
All those present participle, past participle, future participle (and the same categories with "perfect" included), the tense is determined by the additional parts of the phrase, not the participial action containing -ing. That's the other use of those verbs besides gerunds, which is how they are used in the statute (as nouns).
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I think I read it.
I didn’t see in the new law where an 80%, or a block of aluminum as Ren points out, was defined as a firearm receiver. Or even firearm part.
And still haven’t seen the word possess in the new law.
But more importantly, where is an 80% defined as a firearm part?
Anything about firearms parts, other than firearms receivers, refers to may be readily assembled.
It doesn’t refer to readily manufactured, which an 80% would need to be.
You can’t readily assemble an 80% lower.
It does look like you need to Serialize and register it before you begin to manufacture it.
The more I read it the cloudier it gets.
By my reading, unregistered uppers are more suspect than 80% lowers as uppers are un-serialized, un-registered firearm receivers which can be used to readily assemble a firearm.
P.S. Guess I gotta go back and watch Schoolhouse Rock again. :D
Conjunction junction, what’s your function.....
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I think I read it.
I didn’t see in the new law where an 80%, or a block of aluminum as Ren points out, was defined as a firearm receiver. Or even firearm part.
And still haven’t seen the word possess in the new law.
But more importantly, where is an 80% defined as a firearm part?
Anything about firearms parts, other than firearms receivers, refers to may be readily assembled.
It doesn’t refer to readily manufactured, which an 80% would need to be.
You can’t readily assemble an 80% lower.
It does look like you need to Serialize and register it before you begin to manufacture it.
The more I read it the cloudier it gets.
By my reading, unregistered uppers are more suspect than 80% lowers as uppers are un-serialized, un-registered firearm receivers which can be used to readily assemble a firearm.
P.S. Guess I gotta go back and watch Schoolhouse Rock again. :D
Conjunction junction, what’s your function.....
They avoided specific wording, because someone in the Legislature finally figured out that the people are smarter than they give us credit for.
If they say "80% receivers are banned," we'll be buying 75% blanks. If they say "possession" is illegal, and there is no accountability for whoever buys these things and then resells them, they'll never be able to find them unless one is found at a crime scene or discovered in a search. So, they banned the USE of these products (gun parts) that can be assembled as a firearm. Use includes manufacturing, buying (purchasing) or receiving (obtaining) one.
The intent is to make these parts illegal in Hawaii -- except for the ones you serialized and registered like normal firearms. If they allow that (which I think they are), then possession of SERIALIZED & REGISTERED blanks is still legal. If the cost is less for these 80% lowers/frames than a milled and FFL-controlled receiver/frame, I can see FFLs doing transfers for 80% receiver parts -- where they make sure you have a permit, and the part is recorded as a "receiver blank" when registering with HPD. Therefore, it would be logical that they aren't banning 80% lowers -- only the ones that are sold without serial numbers and unregistered.
If you obtain it, then give or sell it to someone else, you're still guilty without having to still be in possession. The person you gave/sold it to is still guilty, since they obtained it from you -- possession not withstanding.
You're trying to dissect the verbiage to argue some sort of loophole exists. They made the wording ambiguous and "loose" enough so they can shoehorn in a case involving a receiver blank no matter what part you actually played in it's existence in Hawaii.
The definitions should have been added to the statute in the glossary, but that would just create the loopholes you are looking for. That's why interpretation is left up to the prosecutor -- who refuses to provide the people who pay their salaries and operations budgets the courtesy of providing their interpretations of ambiguous laws.
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Use includes manufacturing, buying (purchasing) or receiving (obtaining) one.
If you obtain it, then give or sell it to someone else, you're still guilty without having to still be in possession. The person you gave/sold it to is still guilty, since they obtained it from you -- possession not withstanding.
You're to dissect the verbiage to argue some sort of loophole exists.
I agree 95% with the above post. Not the quote, the actual post.
But......
Yes. Yes I am and it does exist as I read it.
If a person is not manufacturing, buying or receiving (obtaining) (or transferring ) one, there is no “use” of. (By your definition above )
So how you figure if there is no manufacturing, buying, obtaining, or transferring of, that it’s illegal to posses a chunk of plastic or aluminum not specified to be a readily assembled firearm part ?
(And that the ATF doesn’t define as a firearm part. )
On that note, I still don’t see where any of the verbiage of the new law applies to 80% blocks of plastic or aluminum that are not firearm receivers or firearm parts to be readily assembled.
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I agree 95% with the above post. Not the quote, the actual post.
But......
Yes. Yes I am and it does exist as I read it.
If a person is not manufacturing, buying or receiving (obtaining) (or transferring ) one, there is no “use” of. (By your definition above )
So how you figure if there is no manufacturing, buying, obtaining, or transferring of, that it’s illegal to posses a chunk of plastic or aluminum not specified to be a readily assembled firearm part ?
(And that the ATF doesn’t define as a firearm part. )
On that note, I still don’t see where any of the verbiage of the new law applies to 80% blocks of plastic or aluminum that are not firearm receivers or firearm parts to be readily assembled.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think....
"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number;
Is an 80% chunk of plastic or metal that was purchased as an 80% AR lower or 80% Glock frame included in "firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number;"
That's the best I can offer.
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I agree 95% with the above post. Not the quote, the actual post. ....
On that note, I still don’t see where any of the verbiage of the new law applies to 80% blocks of plastic or aluminum that are not firearm receivers or firearm parts to be readily assembled.
The "readily assembled" part is the third of three criteria for violating the provision, and it requires " (3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled."
The first two criteria only requires a firearm receiver that is lacking a serial number. Nothing about being "readily assembled" on its own as a block of plastic or metal.
The bill states ""Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means."
in that definition, it uses "readily made", as in manufactured/milled. To me that definition is literally the same as an 80% lower or pistol frame, regardless of material used.
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Shoulda just said that in the first place.
“ "Firearm receiver" means the part of a firearm that provides housing for the firearm's internal components, including a hammer, bolt, breechblock, action, or firing mechanism. "Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means."
Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
(Oh crap, back to English 101 I guess.)
And where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?
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;D
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Shoulda just said that in the first place.
“ "Firearm receiver" means the part of a firearm that provides housing for the firearm's internal components, including a hammer, bolt, breechblock, action, or firing mechanism. "Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means."
Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
(Oh crap, back to English 101 I guess.)
And where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?
Really?
I'm not here to spoon feed anyone (especially you) information that's contained in the text of the bill. The link has been posted many times. All you have to do is click and read.
Did you make testimonial comments to the legislature for this bill? If so, did you stop to read it first?
Maybe you can get someone else to waste spend their time trying to discuss something you haven't bothered to read -- and then blame them for not posting the entire text so you can refer to it.
:geekdanc: :wave: Buh-bye!
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Why you gotta get your panties all in a bunch ?
If you didn’t want to waste your time, just don’t reply.
Does buh-bye mean I won’t see you responding to my posts in the future ? (I can only hope.)
Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
(Oh crap, back to English 101 I guess.)
And where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?
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What if you bought a chunk of plastic to use as a paperweight or design as an art piece with no intention to manufacture it as a firearm?
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What if you bought a chunk of plastic to use as a paperweight or design as an art piece with no intention to manufacture it as a firearm?
Any diddling by me would quickly turn such into a paperweight. I am one of those that can ruin an anvil.
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Here's something to think about. How many people here are asking for clarification or going to complain but didn't submit testimony or show up to the hearings when the bill was making it's way thru.
So lesson learned if none of the above was done, PARTICIPATE. I don't own any P80s nor have the craftsmanship and tools to even create one. So this bills intent didn't apply to me at all. But I was there fighting as best as we can to stop the bill.
We got lucky on the bill that does apply to most people here, the mag ban.
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Here's something to think about. How many people here are asking for clarification or going to complain but didn't submit testimony or show up to the hearings when the bill was making it's way thru.
So lesson learned if none of the above was done, PARTICIPATE. I don't own any P80s nor have the craftsmanship and tools to even create one. So this bills intent didn't apply to me at all. But I was there fighting as best as we can to stop the bill.
We got lucky on the bill that does apply to most people here, the mag ban.
and some would also say, earlier year, we got "lucky", it was only bump stocks and pull-release triggers.
Every year, we gonna be "lucky" until it's only 2-barrel shotguns, 6-shot revolvers, and lever-action rifles.
when does the "greater" Hawaii 2A community wake up and smell the coffee?
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What if you bought a chunk of plastic to use as a paperweight or design as an art piece with no intention to manufacture it as a firearm?
If the chunk of plastic is already milled to an 80% receiver/frame, and it was sold as an 80% blank, it probably cost more than any unmilled chunk. If you paid $100-$200 for a plastic paperweight, you might not be competent enough to own guns! :rofl:
You can also buy a Glock "with the intent" to use it as a paperweight, but that doesn't transform the gun into a non-firearm.
I think the state is overreaching by ignoring the ATF guidance on 80% receivers. They are NOT firearms, but HI wants to regulate them as if they are. Yes, the intent for buying these is potentially to create a firearm, but until that happens, it remains a non-firearm part that requires milling to function as a receiver or frame.
I guess since HI can make NFA items illegal even though the feds allow them, HI can ban whatever they want. I'm sure they would ban all private firearms if they didn't have those pesky Constitutions protecting our rights.
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Another interpretation can be that you can still purchase them freely at any gun store or via the internet. The key to all of this is sentence 2:
"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm, purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled."
...meaning, if you put a serial number on the piece of plastic/metal FIRST before you begin any milling or drilling, you are in compliance with the law as written.
And while they have attempted to define a firearm receiver..."Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means." they have never defined the term readily. And that has been asked for eons and as for intent, if I go into Home Depot and purchase a 10x12 piece of 12 gauge sheet metal with the INTENT to make an AK rifle out of it, can HD sell it to me? A piece of steel tube to make a STEN. They aren't an FFL , but are selling firearm parts.
Poorly written laws have unintended consequences
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A 01 is different than an 07
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this.
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Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this.
I think he was referring to the license types for FFLs.
Type 01 FFL is a dealer of firearms or gunsmith
Type 07 is a manufacturer of firearms.
When you apply you have to select what type you are trying to be.
If I want to manufacture ammunition I have to apply for a type 06.
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I think he was referring to the license types for FFLs.
Type 01 FFL is a dealer of firearms or gunsmith
Type 07 is a manufacturer of firearms.
When you apply you have to select what type you are trying to be.
If I want to manufacture ammunition I have to apply for a type 06.
Oh, gotcha. I guess the HRS section didn't cover that.
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Oh, gotcha. I guess the HRS section didn't cover that.
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=37983.msg337898#msg337898
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Anybody other than the Engilsh teacher got thoughts on this ?
Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
If It’s gotta be explained in those grammatical terms, sure seems like the law is unreasonably vague and ambiguous and unenforceable regarding grandfathering.
And, still, where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?
And what about engraving the registration number on it before you register it? Is that possible?
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Anybody other than the Engilsh teacher got thoughts on this ?
Back to manufacturing, purchasing or obtaining.....
Still implies after the law was enacted.
Doesn’t say possess. Which should have been clear if that’s what they intended.
If It’s gotta be explained in those grammatical terms, sure seems like the law is unreasonably vague and ambiguous and unenforceable regarding grandfathering.
And, still, where does this put uppers ? Particularly spare uppers or various caliber uppers used on same registered lower ?
And what about engraving the registration number on it before you register it? Is that possible?
You ever read majority of gun bills and laws, in general?
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Luckily, if there is an upper receiver buying spike ahead of this law being ignored, it will be limited to Hawaii.
No one here plans on doing a thing against the democrat master's wishes.
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Luckily, if there is an upper receiver buying spike ahead of this law being ignored, it will be limited to Hawaii.
No one here plans on doing a thing against the democrat master's wishes.
I can see people traveling to the mainland and coming back to Hawaii with a few "souvenirs" they bought legally without serial numbers. Since they are legal federally, the TSA would have no reason to see them as contraband leaving the state where they were purchased.
As usual, this is another unenforceable law unless (1) someone turns you in, or (2) you happen to be subject to a search warrant for something else, and the Cops discover the "paper weights".
I wonder, if you add a serial number to the blanks you're storing but don't get them registered, they can't get you on ghost gun charges, right? Just a misdemeanor for an unregistered non-firearm.
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I can see people traveling to the mainland and coming back to Hawaii with a few "souvenirs" they bought legally without serial numbers. Since they are legal federally, the TSA would have no reason to see them as contraband leaving the state where they were purchased.
As usual, this is another unenforceable law unless (1) someone turns you in, or (2) you happen to be subject to a search warrant for something else, and the Cops discover the "paper weights".
I wonder, if you add a serial number to the blanks you're storing but don't get them registered, they can't get you on ghost gun charges, right? Just a misdemeanor for an unregistered non-firearm.
Would be an interesting court battle. Argument would be, it is not a firearm as defined.. When they go bu, bu, but the law says this, whip out the piece of 16 GA steel and say that's a firearm too by the states definition. Or the piece of pipe or the shovel... Unless it has been manufactured as a firearm, it isn't. Is airsoft stuff, what about BB guns? Both of those use air or spring power to propel a projectile. A piece of plastic without the ability to "shoot" anything is not a firearm.
You're either pregnant or you aren't.
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Good point.
How do you prove intent?
Is it the manufacturers intent or the possessors?
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Another interpretation can be that you can still purchase them freely at any gun store or via the internet. The key to all of this is sentence 2:
"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm (what if I don't intend to assemble a firearm in Hawaii?), purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled."
...meaning, if you put a serial number on the piece of plastic/metal FIRST before you begin any milling or drilling, you are in compliance with the law as written.
And while they have attempted to define a firearm receiver..."Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means." they have never defined the term readily. And that has been asked for eons and as for intent, if I go into Home Depot and purchase a 10x12 piece of 12 gauge sheet metal with the INTENT to make an AK rifle out of it, can HD sell it to me? A piece of steel tube to make a STEN. They aren't an FFL , but are selling firearm parts.
Poorly written laws have unintended consequences
unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.
Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.
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unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.
Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.
If the firearm has no serial number, the registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number,
and the registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration.
That's a change from before, where the statute said to use the permit to acquire number as the serial number.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM
The manufacturers and some retailers offer the option to include a serial number of your choice on 80% blanks.
I've read that some states require that the serial number on polymer frames and receivers be engraved on a metal plate affixed to it, I guess like they do on Glocks. The Sig P320 has a "window" where the modular insert's engraved serial shows through.
Makes sense, because a number on the softer plastic could be "accidentally" altered or obliterated.
(https://i.imgur.com/COrRdbU.png?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zjltb8s.jpg?1)
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unless I am wrong (and I've been known to be, ask my wife), you still DO NOT NEED a permit to acquire an 80% . It only states it must have a MFRs serial number (no. 1), or provided a serial number that CAN BE, not SHALL BE registered (no. 2) and it DOES NOT state who issues the serial number.
Again...poorly written laws. Words have meaning.
HPD does what they want. I've know a guy who's had to have an active long gun permit to acquire in order to register his completed P80. So he showed up to reg and was told no. He applied for long gun permit and came back 2 weeks later. At the same time he picked up his permit, he was able to register his P80. Makes sense right.
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Riddle me this. How are you supposed to engrave the registration number when you can't register the non gun with no engraved number?
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Meanwhile Downtown (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200916/695630556bd3e3587a335cd83417ba11.jpg)
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Riddle me this. How are you supposed to engrave the registration number when you can't register the non gun with no engraved number?
You can register a non-gun 80% blank. In fact, you MUST register it prior to starting any milling. If you show up to register the fully milled receiver without a serial number, it's a ghost gun by definition. Ghost guns are banned.
I wonder if one could show up with 0% receiver (a solid block of solid aluminum or plastic) and register it? Now you have a registered serial number that can be engraved on any unserialized blank.
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Three weeks ago I registered a Polymer 80 with the holes drilled (after being asked by three different persons if I drilled the holes myself). I asked the officers if I can register the Poly 80 with no work done and they said no, it's not considered a firearm and you can't register a non firearm.
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Collecting paperweights should be a new hobby. Just to confuse the watchers.
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You can register a non-gun 80% blank. In fact, you MUST register it prior to starting any milling. If you show up to register the fully milled receiver without a serial number, it's a ghost gun by definition. Ghost guns are banned.
I wonder if one could show up with 0% receiver (a solid block of solid aluminum or plastic) and register it? Now you have a registered serial number that can be engraved on any unserialized blank.
Troll idea.
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Three weeks ago I registered a Polymer 80 with the holes drilled (after being asked by three different persons if I drilled the holes myself). I asked the officers if I can register the Poly 80 with no work done and they said no, it's not considered a firearm and you can't register a non firearm.
That's according to the old way. The new way says:
"Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form
but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm
frame or receiver through milling or other means."
No matter what the ATF says, or what the law used to say about receivers, the new law says an 80% receiver/frame that is designed OR intended to be used for that purpose is included in the definition for "Firearm Receiver".
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Firearm receiver also includes all uppers.
Unless I read it wrong.
No one is really commenting on that.
What’s the status of uppers?
Riddle me this. How are you supposed to engrave the registration number when you can't register the non gun with no engraved number?
That’s what I’ve been repeatedly saying.
And how I engrave my registration number on it before I register it ?
Still doesn’t clarify possessing. Only obtaining, purchasing or manufacturing/printing after date of law.
There’s 3 different conversations. :wacko:
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And nowhere does it say anything about permits to acquire an 80%
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Firearm receiver also includes all uppers.
Unless I read it wrong.
No one is really commenting on that.
What’s the status of uppers?
That’s what I’ve been repeatedly saying.
And how I engrave my registration number on it before I register it ?
Still doesn’t clarify possessing. Only obtaining, purchasing or manufacturing/printing after date of law.
There’s 3 different conversations. :wacko:
Idk if this will help. I applied for my long gun last week. Its been 3 or 4 years since ive done this.
Anyways, after i filled out the white paper with carbon copy (or what use to be carbon copy many many years ago.) He did write a bunch of numbers on the top. Im gonna assume its my permit applicant number.
So if i am to guess, there is a possibility you will need to own a long gun permit first. Then when you go down to apply they will give you a specific number that you will need to engrave. Probably 2 weeks to engrave it?? Then the finale... register it.
Now dont flame me, im just predicting a POSSIBLE scenario/ process.
However i did ask them about this bill everyone is worked up on. They dont have the slightest clue, it was 2 days after this thread was started. Tbh they were exceptionally cool people. In fact they are apart of 2a. I never asked what their screen names were cause thats not my business. I know a handful of other cops on here cause i sold them different things. The firearms division fellas told me to continue building uppers cause there is no law yet. EVEN AFTER THIS THREAD WAS STARTED. Or they just never got the memo even though they looked up their HRS codes and/ work emails to see if any new laws were created. We all talked bout 10-15 minutes after i finished my photo and paperwork. It was dead slow. Maybe the guy after my appointment decided not to apply lol. A space wasted.
Legislature makes the law.
LEO's enforce it.
Judicial interprets it, in court.
Thats what i learned in college. Also many many years ago.
On a side note, i screen shot this and sent to some of my cop friends. They are not happy either if they have to engrave all of their home built uppers as well. After all i helped make bout 6 or 7 of them for different people.🤣
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Riddle me this. How are you supposed to engrave the registration number when you can't register the non gun with no engraved number?
Unless I missed something, the number engraved on the firearm doesn't have to be the gun registration form number. So if you are making these things you can engrave a serial number you make up. First gun you make could be 001, next one 002, etc.
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Unless I missed something, the number engraved on the firearm doesn't have to be the gun registration form number. So if you are making these things you can engrave a serial number you make up. First gun you make could be 001, next one 002, etc.
Use uncommon ascii characters that the HPD officers can't figure out how to type on the registration form.
Üöﺡﺡﮒ꙰ꙬᾯÏ
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I registered a couple of Poly 80 handgun frames earlier this week with my rifle permit. My made up serial numbers used four letters with my initials and three numbers. I try to make it easy for HPD. They treat me well.
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You engraved it yourself?
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I registered a couple of Poly 80 handgun frames earlier this week with my rifle permit. My made up serial numbers used four letters with my initials and three numbers. I try to make it easy for HPD. They treat me well.
You engraved it yourself?
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You engraved it yourself?
dogman has "more amps"...
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You engraved it yourself?
. . .
dogman has "more amps"...
That's all you need.
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“ When that one says ten volts, there's really ten whole honest-to-gawd manly hairy-assed volts present. :D
Terry, 230RN”
God Bless terry 230RN and dogman!
Dogman is a funny bastahd but you gotta listen to him. :shaka:
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Unless I missed something, the number engraved on the firearm doesn't have to be the gun registration form number. So if you are making these things you can engrave a serial number you make up. First gun you make could be 001, next one 002, etc.
The new law reads, "If the firearm has no serial number, the [permit] registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the [permit] registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration."
Why they deleted permit number and put registration number? This now makes it impossible to ever construct a 0 - 80% in a handgun form.
You cannot get a handgun permit without a serial number, nor can you register a handgun without a serial number. You CANNOT get a registration number, therefore, you cannot get a serial number to engrave.
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I registered a couple of Poly 80 handgun frames earlier this week with my rifle permit. My made up serial numbers used four letters with my initials and three numbers. I try to make it easy for HPD. They treat me well.
Was yours completed or still in a 80% form?
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Use uncommon ascii characters that the HPD officers can't figure out how to type on the registration form.
Üöﺡﺡﮒ꙰ꙬᾯÏ
I see 2 pairs of boobs. Lol
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There's no stipulation that the number has to be the registration number except for those blanks/receivers that are registered without a number. HPD will engrave it for you. You can actually order the blanks with serial numbers professionally applied to the blanks to make it easier.
I guess if you have more than one blank to register, they may have to fill out multiple registrations? Either that, or append something to the registration number for each item to make them unique?
But, if you really want "enjoy" the process a little, give every blank you register the SAME serial number as EVERYBODY ELSE on here. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
If 20 people have 2 blanks each, that's 40 future receivers that will have the same number.
Something like "2A-HI-2020" comes to mind.
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There's no stipulation that the number has to be the registration number except for those blanks/receivers that are registered without a number. HPD will engrave it for you. You can actually order the blanks with serial numbers professionally applied to the blanks to make it easier.
I guess if you have more than one blank to register, they may have to fill out multiple registrations? Either that, or append something to the registration number for each item to make them unique?
But, if you really want "enjoy" the process a little, give every blank you register the SAME serial number as EVERYBODY ELSE on here. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
If 20 people have 2 blanks each, that's 40 future receivers that will have the same number.
Something like "2A-HI-2020" comes to mind.
So what I just posted doesn't mean anything?
"If the firearm has no serial number, the [permit[/size]] registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the [permit[/size]] registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration."
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM (https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM)
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Was yours completed or still in a 80% form?
Only the holes were drilled. A friend also registered a couple this week with the holes drilled.
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Only the holes were drilled. A friend also registered a couple this week with the holes drilled.
Thanks dogman for the response...will give it a go
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There's no stipulation that the number has to be the registration number except for those blanks/receivers that are registered without a number. HPD will engrave it for you. You can actually order the blanks with serial numbers professionally applied to the blanks to make it easier.
I guess if you have more than one blank to register, they may have to fill out multiple registrations? Either that, or append something to the registration number for each item to make them unique?
But, if you really want "enjoy" the process a little, give every blank you register the SAME serial number as EVERYBODY ELSE on here. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
If 20 people have 2 blanks each, that's 40 future receivers that will have the same number.
Something like "2A-HI-2020" comes to mind.
BOTO808
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BOTO808
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If someone asks to build one for them, put "HUGH JANUS 2020"
:rofl:
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So what I just posted doesn't mean anything?
"If the firearm has no serial number, the [permit[/size]] registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the [permit[/size]] registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration."
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM (https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2020/bills/HB2744_SD2_PROPOSED_.HTM)
You sounded confused. Didn't want to get bogged down in that quagmire. :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
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I registered a couple of Poly 80 handgun frames earlier this week with my rifle permit. My made up serial numbers used four letters with my initials and three numbers. I try to make it easy for HPD. They treat me well.
THEY TREAT YOU WELL! LOL :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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What is HIFICO doing about this? Guys, stop trying to overthink this.
It is absolutely unconstitutional and death by a thousand cuts.
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What is HIFICO doing about this? Guys, stop trying to overthink this.
There isn't much to do until the PDs give out their requirements. We're still a small organization with limited funds and especially manpower so can only pursue a limited number of lawsuits. Lawsuits cost tens, or even hundreds, of thousands of dollars and take years to complete. Then you need good caselaw and favorable judges to decide the cases. It is difficult. Fortunately we are developing relations with the national orgs and other attorneys to help.
What needs to be done is to stop the bills in the legislature, then work on the past damage through the courts.
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The new law reads, "If the firearm has no serial number, the [permit] registration number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the [permit] registration number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm before registration."
Why they deleted permit number and put registration number? This now makes it impossible to ever construct a 0 - 80% in a handgun form.
You cannot get a handgun permit without a serial number, nor can you register a handgun without a serial number. You CANNOT get a registration number, therefore, you cannot get a serial number to engrave.
How would they know the 80% lower never came with a serial number in the first place?
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How would they know the 80% lower never came with a serial number in the first place?
Oh I like this question! Would an 80% with a serial still be defined as an 80% or now would it be an “other” and need to be handled as a lower by an FFL going forward?
If the definition is it is still considered an 80% then does this law apply?
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Oh I like this question! Would an 80% with a serial still be defined as an 80% or now would it be an “other” and need to be handled as a lower by an FFL going forward?
If the definition is it is still considered an 80% then does this law apply?
As I read it the law only applies to non-serialized 80% firearms. Law requires a serial number on an 80% firearm but it doesn't say you can't have a serial number on an 80% firearm. So if a 80% part manufacturer put a serial number on it prior to purchase then it would seem to not apply. So if you buy a chunk of steel or aluminum you plan to make into a firearm then engrave a serial number first and you would seem to be fine? Gotta double check the text of the law but this would seem to be a workaround.
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As I read it the law only applies to non-serialized 80% firearms. Law requires a serial number on an 80% firearm but it doesn't say you can't have a serial number on an 80% firearm. So if a 80% part manufacturer put a serial number on it prior to purchase then it would seem to not apply. So if you buy a chunk of steel or aluminum you plan to make into a firearm then engrave a serial number first and you would seem to be fine? Gotta double check the text of the law but this would seem to be a workaround.
This is exactly how it works and what I said earlier. IT IS LEGAL to get these and assemble them AS LONG AS YOU SERIALIZE/REGISTER THEM. And it does not say who puts it on. WORDS MATTER.
SECTION 3. Chapter 134, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding a new section to part I to be appropriately designated and to read as follows:
"§134- Manufacturing, purchasing, or obtaining firearm parts to assemble a firearm having no serial number; penalty. (a) A person who is not licensed to manufacture a firearm under section 134-31, or who is not a dealer licensed by the United States Department of Justice, shall not, for the purpose of assembling a firearm (if that is not your purpose for purchase, then it's not against the law), purchase, produce with a three-dimensional printer, or otherwise obtain separately, or as part of a kit:
(1) A firearm receiver that is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer;
(2) A firearm receiver that has not been provided a serial number that may be registered in accordance with section 134-3(c); or(This is where you put your own serial number in the event you ever change your mind on assembling)
(3) Any combination of parts from which a firearm having no serial number may be readily assembled; provided that the parts do not have the capacity to function as a firearm unless assembled.
(b) Violation of this section is a class C felony."
SECTION 4. Section 134-1, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding two new definitions to be appropriately inserted and to read as follows:
""Assembly" means the fabrication of a firearm or the fitting together of component parts to construct a firearm.
"Firearm receiver" means the part of a firearm that provides housing for the firearm's internal components, including a hammer, bolt, breechblock, action, or firing mechanism. "Firearm receiver" includes any object or part that is not a firearm frame or receiver in finished form but that is designed or intended to be used for that purpose and may readily be made into a firearm frame or receiver through milling or other means."
§134-2 Permits to acquire. (a) No person shall acquire the ownership of a firearm (80% IS NOT A FIREARM AND NEVER WAS and is incapable of being used as such), whether usable or unusable, serviceable or unserviceable, modern or antique, registered under prior law or by a prior owner or unregistered, either by purchase, gift, inheritance, bequest, or in any other manner,