2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Lawfoolly on September 11, 2020, 06:14:53 AM
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Hello! I'm new to the forum and to Hawaii. I haven't been able to find an answer to AR Registration question now that "Other" is an option. I'd like to purchase an AR stripped lower for the purpose of building it into an AR Pistol in the future. Are FFLs able to register an AR stripped lower as "Pistol" on the 4473 even though there is an "Other" option now?
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I dont have time now, but there are a few threads on this. Try searching AR Pistol.
IIRC when registering the lower with HPD, you have to make sure it says "pistol" on the registration.
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The OLD method, before the ATF added Other (frame, receiver, etc.) to the 4473 was to have the FFL mark "pistol" when the intention was to build an AR pistol.
Now, just have them mark the "Other" box. If Long Gun (rifle or shotgun) remains unmarked, you are fine for building a rifle OR a pistol from your stripped lower.
Make sure to look at the form carefully when signing to make sure the FFL didn't accidentally mark more than one box.
If you are making multiple purchases, among them a long gun, then you should buy the receiver on one day, and everything else on another. Otherwise, the FFL will fill out one 4473 for all your firearms in that transaction, marking all boxes that apply. If both "long gun" and "other" are marked, someone at the firearm desk at HPD might argue that there's no way to tell that the receiver was not included as "long gun" AND "other".
Makes no sense, but nothing about the process makes much sense.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download
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The OLD method, before the ATF added Other (frame, receiver, etc.) to the 4473 was to have the FFL mark "pistol" when the intention was to build an AR pistol.
Now, just have them mark the "Other" box. If Long Gun (rifle or shotgun) remains unmarked, you are fine for building a rifle OR a pistol from your stripped lower.
Make sure to look at the form carefully when signing to make sure the FFL didn't accidentally mark more than one box.
If you are making multiple purchases, among them a long gun, then you should buy the receiver on one day, and everything else on another. Otherwise, the FFL will fill out one 4473 for all your firearms in that transaction, marking all boxes that apply. If both "long gun" and "other" are marked, someone at the firearm desk at HPD might argue that there's no way to tell that the receiver was not included as "long gun" AND "other".
Makes no sense, but nothing about the process makes much sense.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download
Thanks for the response! So I know that one day I will move back to CA, I'd like to have the lower registered as a Pistol. Is there anyway a stripped lower can be registered as a "Pistol" instead of "Other"?
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Thanks for the response! So I know that one day I will move back to CA, I'd like to have the lower registered as a Pistol. Is there anyway a stripped lower can be registered as a "Pistol" instead of "Other"?
Make sure when you register the new receiver with HPD they are aware you intend to build it as a pistol. They may need/want to annotate that in the description. Or, they might wait until you take the completed firearm in to update the registration to "pistol".
As long as the initial HPD registration form says "receiver only" or "AR pistol receiver," and not something like "rifle receiver," you'll be able to take it in to update the registration as an AR pistol without any issues -- no guarantee, of course. HPD makes this stuff up as the go sometimes.
What's most important is the 4473, because whatever the item was classified as on that form is how it must always be classified. HPD can correct a mistake on their registration, but only if the 4473 contradicts them.
That's my understanding of it.
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If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register. If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register.
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If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register. If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register.
Thank you so much for the reply. When your paper says "*Converted to full pistol", did you bring in a fully built AR pistol?
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Thank you so much for the reply. When your paper says "*Converted to full pistol", did you bring in a fully built AR pistol?
I registered the stripped lower as a pistol frame, then took the completed pistol back a couple weeks later with the registration "frame only" and HPD added the "converted to full pistol..."
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I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .
You really dont need to do that anymore?!?
I been out of the game for years .
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I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .
You really dont need to do that anymore?!?
I been out of the game for years .
If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine.
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If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine.
UNLESS ...... you build it without a gas system. Which ties into the "if it's a semi-auto" condition you started out with. :thumbsup: :shaka:
Sometimes, that needs to be spelled out. Most assume the AR pistol or rifle is a semi-auto without considering they can disable it. :wave:
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If you buy an AR pistol and install bolt action conversion, would that then be legal in HI?
https://kalikey.com/
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I dont mean to hijack this thread. The last time i read about ar pistols in hawaii, you had to permanently attach a magazine (welded somehow) to the lower .
You really dont need to do that anymore?!?
I been out of the game for years .
If it's a semi-auto, the magazine must be permanently attached. At one time, HPD would only register the stripped lower as a pistol frame if the magazine was welded to the receiver. So you had to pick up your permit to acquire, pick up the receiver from the gun shop, weld on a magazine, then take to HPD for registration. If it wasn't done to their satisfaction, HPD would confiscate the receiver. The last time I registered one about a year or two ago, the lower receiver was not required to have a magazine permanently attached, but part of the process to build a semi-auto AR pistol would include permanently attaching a magazine.
UNLESS ...... you build it without a gas system. Which ties into the "if it's a semi-auto" condition you started out with. :thumbsup: :shaka:
Sometimes, that needs to be spelled out. Most assume the AR pistol or rifle is a semi-auto without considering they can disable it. :wave:
""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"... ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"...
I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.
They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...
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If you buy an AR pistol and install bolt action conversion, would that then be legal in HI?
https://kalikey.com/
Legally yes. But HPD would hate you
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Legally yes. But HPD would hate you
HPD already hates gun owners without badges.
No sense in trying to win friends there.
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""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"... ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"...
I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.
They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...
If you welded a mag to make the pistol configuration legal, changing the upper to a rifle configuration isn't going to let you have a detachable mag. The mag well is on the lower.
Adjustable gas systems are still gas systems. It defines a semi-automatic where the action is gas driven.
I'm not familiar with PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine??). But I believe the design of an AR includes a BCG that requires exhaust gas from the barrel to operate and make it semiauto. All of that is contained in the upper: barrel, gas block, gas tube, BCG, buffer, etc. If the overall design of the action is no longer based on gas expulsion to operate the semi-auto action, would it even be classified an AR? The only info I found in a short time is that a PCC uses blow-back to operate the action. Sounds like a gas system to me, but I am not sure. Is there something other than gas and manual mode on a semiauto PCC?
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""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"... ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"... Nowhere does it state it must be welded
I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.
They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...
If you welded a mag to make the pistol configuration legal, changing the upper to a rifle configuration isn't going to let you have a detachable mag. The mag well is on the lower. that's my whole point on why it's not required
Adjustable gas systems are still gas systems. It defines a semi-automatic where the action is gas driven. True but when closed it operates as a single action/bolt action as the gas cannot cycle the BFG
I'm not familiar with PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine?? Yup). But I believe the design of an AR includes a BCG that requires exhaust gas from the barrel to operate and make it semiauto. All of that is contained in the upper: barrel, gas block, gas tube, BCG, buffer, (these are in the lower) etc. If the overall design of the action is no longer based on gas expulsion to operate the semi-auto action, would it even be classified an AR? The only info I found in a short time is that a PCC uses blow-back to operate the action. Sounds like a gas system to me, but I am not sure. Is there something other than gas and manual mode on a semiauto PCC?
A PCC runs just like a handgun does. It uses the blow back from firing to cycle the bolt. The gas from the tube is irrelevant. It's why you can run a 4" barrel on a 9mm AR pistol
Back to standard AR15s, using a KALIKEY BCG would make it a bolt gun, thus no "welding" of the magazine. That's why the made up requirement of welding from HPD is bullshit. And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states laws and through various lawsuits around the country. Yes I know their stance and I'm waiting for that position in writing, but until then they can suck it. I've asked HPD and the AG for a written definition and both flat refuse on how they determine what a "detachable magazine" is. I've gotten to the point of building a shit cheap one just knowing it would be confiscated in order to file suit against them in order to get a real definition, not their ambiguous bullshit.
Yes the LOWER receiver has the trigger/hammer and that's it. It has zero bearing on how the AR operates, nor does it care about barrel length. It also doesn't care what caliber you have it in. Whether that's .17HMR or .50 BEOWOLF or anywhere in between. It's also why HPD can't make you go back after you've built a stripped lower when you say it's a pistol, even though they say you have to. You've followed the law and registered it. There is nothing in the law that says you have to go back to prove a build.
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""Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine"... ..."but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length"... Nowhere does it state it must be welded
I'm still waiting for the written direction that a magazine needs to be welded. What if I change uppers and put a 16" on? Then it can have detachable magazines. What if I run it as a straight pull? What about an adjustable gas system. Close it for short lengths, open for long length barrels. I'm using a tool (hex key, etc.) to change it. And besides, PCC can run without a gas system.
They way they have these statutes written is so purposefully ambiguous, you can't help but run afoul of the law. And here, you're guilty until you've proven yourself innocent at huge expense. And no loser pays...
A PCC runs just like a handgun does. It uses the blow back from firing to cycle the bolt. The gas from the tube is irrelevant. It's why you can run a 4" barrel on a 9mm AR pistol
Back to standard AR15s, using a KALIKEY BCG would make it a bolt gun, thus no "welding" of the magazine. That's why the made up requirement of welding from HPD is bullshit. And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states laws and through various lawsuits around the country. Yes I know their stance and I'm waiting for that position in writing, but until then they can suck it. I've asked HPD and the AG for a written definition and both flat refuse on how they determine what a "detachable magazine" is. I've gotten to the point of building a shit cheap one just knowing it would be confiscated in order to file suit against them in order to get a real definition, not their ambiguous bullshit.
Yes the LOWER receiver has the trigger/hammer and that's it. It has zero bearing on how the AR operates, nor does it care about barrel length. It also doesn't care what caliber you have it in. Whether that's .17HMR or .50 BEOWOLF or anywhere in between. It's also why HPD can't make you go back after you've built a stripped lower when you say it's a pistol, even though they say you have to. You've followed the law and registered it. There is nothing in the law that says you have to go back to prove a build.
I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal.
California made large (standard) capacity AR mags legal if you had to use a tool to extract them, increasing the amount of time needed for a mag change. The Bullet Button was invented to adhere to the legal requirements and also make extracting a mag as simple and quick as possible. Using an AR round to push the button made the round a "tool", making the Bullet Button legal.......until it wasn't.
Once the legislature figured out gun owners and manufacturers are smarter than the government, they changed the law to require the rifle be disassembled to remove the mag. That made the bullet button illegal.
Same guy that invented the Bullet Button then invented a mechanism that allows the shooter to break open the upper and lower receivers, remove the mag, and close the receivers again without having to completely separate them. To augment this new method, they make a MAGLOC device that automatically ejects the mag when the upper receiver is lifted slightly from the lower.
If our laws on making mags non-removable were the same as CA's when the Bullet Button was invented, then I'd agree they are "legal". By legal, I mean it makes the AR pistol compliant with HI law. Unfortunately, HI didn't elaborate beyond stating the inverse: that an AR pistol having a detachable magazine and other characteristics makes it illegal (assault pistol). It's not only ambiguous, but it completely avoids stating that ANYTHING is "legal". You have to derive what's legal by interpreting what the law says is illegal.
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I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal. I defy any legislator, lawyer, the AG, HPD officer to testify in a courtroom that they are illegal for use and to state the portion of the statute where it says you can't use them to adhere to the AS WRITTEN law and that magazines must be welded to the lower Until they make them illegal, they are legal. After 30 years of reading and interpreting building codes, statutes and such, I've learned that words matter and have meaning. SHALL and MAY are two different words. And they still haven't defined the term readily...
California made large (standard) capacity AR mags legal if you had to use a tool to extract them, increasing the amount of time needed for a mag change. The Bullet Button was invented to adhere to the legal requirements and also make extracting a mag as simple and quick as possible. Using an AR round to push the button made the round a "tool", making the Bullet Button legal.......until it wasn't.
Once the legislature figured out gun owners and manufacturers are smarter than the government, they changed the law to require the rifle be disassembled to remove the mag. That made the bullet button illegal. But Hawaii hasn't done that yet. They all too dumb
Same guy that invented the Bullet Button then invented a mechanism that allows the shooter to break open the upper and lower receivers, remove the mag, and close the receivers again without having to completely separate them. To augment this new method, they make a MAGLOC device that automatically ejects the mag when the upper receiver is lifted slightly from the lower.
If our laws on making mags non-removable were the same as CA's when the Bullet Button was invented, then I'd agree they are "legal". By legal, I mean it makes the AR pistol compliant with HI law. Unfortunately, HI didn't elaborate beyond stating the inverse: that an AR pistol having a detachable magazine and other characteristics makes it illegal (assault pistol). It's not only ambiguous, but it completely avoids stating that ANYTHING is "legal". That is the absolute truth You have to derive what's legal by interpreting what the law says is illegal.
Until they put into the written law what HPD is telling you to do, you don't have to. It's like the speed limit. If the sign says 55 but HPD says you have to do 35, the law still stands at 55.
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I don't think you can conclude that a bullet button is legal.
I defy any legislator, lawyer, the AG, HPD officer to testify in a courtroom that they are illegal for use and to state the portion of the statute where it says you can't use them to adhere to the AS WRITTEN law and that magazines must be welded to the lower Until they make them illegal, they are legal. After 30 years of reading and interpreting building codes, statutes and such, I've learned that words matter and have meaning. SHALL and MAY are two different words. And they still haven't defined the term readily...
Okay, let me be more precise. I was using your words, and I should have substituted a more exact phrase.
You originally said:
And even though they can say whatever they want, using a bullet button or other item that prevents you from
changing the magazine without using tools or disassembly of the action is legal, as is codified in other states
laws and through various lawsuits around the country.
What I took that to mean is that a bullet button makes an AR pistol in HI compliant with HI gun laws.
Sure, you can put a Transformer Action Figure on your AR pistol -- perfectly legal. But it in no way makes the pistol more or less compliant. Same with a bullet button. Our laws are written differently than California's. They tried to be more specific, and it gave owners enough wiggle room to use bullet buttons to comply. Hawaii laws are more ambiguous and lacking in details. That way they can charge you, and it's up to you to prove the law should be interpreted your way versus their way.
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HPD already hates gun owners without badges.
No sense in trying to win friends there.
very true....very true
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Okay, let me be more precise. I was using your words, and I should have substituted a more exact phrase.
You originally said:
What I took that to mean is that a bullet button makes an AR pistol in HI compliant with HI gun laws.
Sure, you can put a Transformer Action Figure on your AR pistol -- perfectly legal. But it in no way makes the pistol more or less compliant. Same with a bullet button. Our laws are written differently than California's. They tried to be more specific, and it gave owners enough wiggle room to use bullet buttons to comply. Hawaii laws are more ambiguous and lacking in details. That way they can charge you, and it's up to you to prove the law should be interpreted your way versus their way.
I definitely agree that the laws were written to be purposefully ambiguous to give the cops the upper hand on arresting and keeping the law abiding afraid enough to not try to push it. I myself don't want to push it because I don't want to end up with a weekend vacation in the pokey, so I don't have one. But I want one again, like I had back in the free states. But I don't have to agree with them, especially when they have no legal teeth but enforced by goons.
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When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?
Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?
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When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?
Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?
I’m going through this process right now. Once you order it, tell your FFL to register with HPD as FRAME ONLY. Mine put receiver and checked the “other” box, and he had to call and update it. Make sure you let them know what you plan on doing, when applying for the permit.
The guy helping me was nice, but he kept telling me to use my long gun permit and that I didn’t need to apply for a permit to acquire.
Just picked up my permit and lower, so trying to figure out what my next step is before registration. I’d be ok keeping it bolt action, as I plan on moving in the next year, and would rather not weld anything.
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When ordering a lower to be shipped to a local FFL, do you need to give the seller or FFL any special instructions?
Do I just buy a regular AR lower, have it shipped to FFL, then tell FFL I want to register it as other?
As naph01 said, it's important to make sure the paperwork states whatever it needs to state so you can build a pistol from it.
Even though it's an AR-15 receiver, don't use a long gun permit to pick it up. Apply for a pistol permit with that receiver's serial number. Use that permit to pick it up.
If the 4473 and pistol permit are done correctly, all that's left to do is register. If they'll let you, register it before starting the build. if they tell you it must be completed first, you have lots of time now before taking it in due to the reservation BS system. That's a bonus! :thumbsup:
If they register it before the build and tell you to bring it back after building, tell them, "Roger that!"
The End.
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So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?
FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.
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My only advice…Listen to dogman.
He will not lead you astray. (No pun intended…ah, maybe it was.)
But straight up, he knows as much about this as anyone.
IMO.
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So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?
FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.
You should read up on the ATF rules and the Hawaii Revised Statutes. That way you're getting the whole story and not just answers to specific questions.
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0813-firearms-top-12-qaspdf/download
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-.htm
To answer the question, if you buy a lower out-of-state, the law requires the seller (private or FFL Dealer) to ship the receiver to an FFL in your state of residence. The FFL will then transfer the lower to you as if they are the owner, ensuring all state laws are followed -- including you presenting a valid permit to acquire.
:shaka:
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So if I pick up a stripped lower out of state. Do I bypass the permit to acquire?
FYI haven’t purchased out of state yet. So not too sure how it works.
To answer the question, if you buy a lower out-of-state, the law requires the seller (private or FFL Dealer) to ship the receiver to an FFL in your state of residence. The FFL will then transfer the lower to you as if they are the owner, ensuring all state laws are followed -- including you presenting a valid permit to acquire.
If you want to register a stripped AR lower as a pistol frame with HPD, you have to go through the same process as if you are acquiring a handgun. Purchase lower but do not take possession, apply for handgun permit to acquire, two week wait, pick up permit to acquire, acquire lower and register. The gun shop / FFL may not know the correct procedure. At one time you had to permanently attach the magazine before HPD would register. If not done to HPD's satisfaction, they would confiscate the lower. When I checked late last year it was not necessary to attach a magazine to register.
Many moons ago, HPD would not let me or others register a stripped lower receiver as a pistol frame unless it was labeled as a pistol lower from the manufacturer. I found a letter from the ATF that stated it was acceptable to build a pistol from any lower as long as it was never previously assembled as a rifle. HPD accepted this and allowed any receiver to be registered as a pistol if purchased as a new stripped lower, never assembled as a rifle. I tried to get the ATF to write a letter stating it was acceptable to build a pistol with a stripped lower that was registered as a rifle but their letter stated almost the opposite. Do not register the lower with a rifle permit if you plan on building a pistol.
To be honest, building a legal AR pistol in Hawaii was more of a "I can do this" challenge and I thought it would great to shoot, but I have just as much or more enjoyment with a my pinned and welded muzzle brake 14.5" barreled AR rifle.
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The first one.
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The first one.
😍 so it IS possible.
Do you mind me asking how you went about the mag? It looks one piece. Can I use any magazine? And did you have to have a 10rd cap?
Btw why does it say “not for resale”?
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😍 so it IS possible.
Do you mind me asking how you went about the mag? It looks one piece. Can I use any magazine? And did you have to have a 10rd cap?
Btw why does it say “not for resale”?
First I fabricated a sleeve using .090" thick aluminum to encased a 30 round G.I. magazine. With the curved mag, no way the mag can come out of the sleeve. The bottom of the sleeve is open, so the mag can be serviced. Welded the sleeved magazine to the lower (registered as pistol). Finished the build and returned to HPD where they used white out and retyped the registration. The pistol cannot be resold because I am not licensed to build guns for resale, only personal use.
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First I fabricated a sleeve using .090" thick aluminum to encased a 30 round G.I. magazine. With the curved mag, no way the mag can come out of the sleeve. The bottom of the sleeve is open, so the mag can be serviced. Welded the sleeved magazine to the lower (registered as pistol). Finished the build and returned to HPD where they used white out and retyped the registration. The pistol cannot be resold because I am not licensed to build guns for resale, only personal use.
Curious: was this particular firearm registered before, or after, the ATF 4473 was updated to include receivers as "Other", or were you still required to make sure the LGS categorized it as a Pistol/Handgun specifically?
I have a different theory on the "resale" issue.
According to federal law, you can resell a gun you build at home as long as you intended the firearm to be for personal use at the time you did the build. No manufacturing license is required.
Unless you can find something in the HI statutes that further constrains federal laws and ATF guidance, my guess is HPD typed "(NOT FOR RESALE)" as an indication of your intent -- as in, you were building it for personal use. That doesn't mean you can't resell it -- just HPD needed to document your intentions at the time you registered.
I think this may be another HPD policy "creep" where "Not Intended for Resale" is being misconstrued as "Resale is Prohibited."
That's my interpretation of it, since there are many homemade AR-15 "Franken-guns" being legally sold in this state every year.
I built an AR15 rifle from parts, transferred it to my daughter, and the new registration form showed the specs for the rifle. Between my registration and hers, I never took the completed build in to update their records.
All the receivers I have now have "Receiver Only" on the form, and no caveats about resale.
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Curious: was this particular firearm registered before, or after, the ATF 4473 was updated to include receivers as "Other", or were you still required to make sure the LGS categorized it as a Pistol/Handgun specifically?
All the receivers I have now have "Receiver Only" on the form, and no caveats about resale at the time.
At the time, my FFL told me he always checked "other" for stripped lower receivers.
The stripped lowers I purchased with my rifle permit are described as "receiver only" on my registrations and the stripped lowers I purchased with a pistol permit are described as "frame only" on my registrations.
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At the time, my FFL told me he always checked "other" for stripped lower receivers.
The stripped lowers I purchased with my rifle permit are described as "receiver only" on my registrations and the stripped lowers I purchased with a pistol permit are described as "frame only" on my registrations.
Okay, that's the one critical detail that rarely gets included in these stories.
If you want the build a pistol, you need to get a handgun Permit to Acquire.
If you use your long gun PTA, you've painted yourself into a proverbial corner: rifle build only.
The permit you use for the transfer dictates whether or not it can become a pistol.
:thumbsup:
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Okay, that's the one critical detail that rarely gets included in these stories.
If you want the build a pistol, you need to get a handgun Permit to Acquire.
If you use your long gun PTA, you've painted yourself into a proverbial corner: rifle build only.
The permit you use for the transfer dictates whether or not it can become a pistol.
:thumbsup:
I thought I made this clear with reply #28 on this thread.
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I thought I made this clear with reply #28 on this thread.
Yes, you did.
That was September 11, 2020.
Excuse me for not remembering .....
:shaka:
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Yes, you did.
That was September 11, 2020.
Excuse me for not remembering .....
:shaka:
Did you read reply #28 (April 8, 2022) from this thread?
:shaka:
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So can I…
Turn my pistol into a rifle?
Say I have a bolt action pitsol. Can I build it into a Semi-Auto Rifle?
& Can I build it back to bolt action a pistol?
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So can I…
Turn my pistol into a rifle?
Say I have a bolt action pitsol. Can I build it into a Semi-Auto Rifle?
& Can I build it back to bolt action a pistol?
If the frame was originally registered as a pistol, you can put any length barrel on it you want. If you put a stock on it, you need to make the barrel 16" or longer.
If the frame was originally registered as a rifle, it can never legally be fitted with a <16" barrel unless you fill out the forms and pay the tax stamp fee to register with the ATF as an SBR.
If you're swapping parts to switch between a registered pistol and functional rifle, it's been suggested you have the 16"+ barrel on the upper first before installing the stock on the lower, as pistols can't have stocks legally (again, SBR).
That's my understanding, but I might have said something wrong. Hopefully if I did, someone will correct me.
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UPDATE:
I purchased at stripped lower through LGS to be registered as a pistol.
Shared my plans. AR pistol, BOLT-Action, & Detachable 10 Round Magazine.
All parties were on board.
I’m safe as the bolt action disqualifies it as an “assault pistol”
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section, or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code section 921(a)(13) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations section 478.11.
I was safe…SO I THOUGHT.
LGS informs me that HPD contacted him & informed him that if I wished to continue with the pistol registration that the magazine HAS to be WELDED, no matter the action is. “Because the upper can be easily changed.” Also the welding has to be done by a type 7 gunsmith and a ATF form must be filed. ALL HAS TO BE DONE PRIOR TO ME BEING ABLE TO START MY PTA.
Bah Humbug 🤦🏾♂️
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UPDATE:
I purchased at stripped lower through LGS to be registered as a pistol.
Shared my plans. AR pistol, BOLT-Action, & Detachable 10 Round Magazine.
All parties were on board.
I’m safe as the bolt action disqualifies it as an “assault pistol”
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section, or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code section 921(a)(13) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations section 478.11.
I was safe…SO I THOUGHT.
LGS informs me that HPD contacted him & informed him that if I wished to continue with the pistol registration that the magazine HAS to be WELDED, no matter the action is. “Because the upper can be easily changed.” Also the welding has to be done by a type 7 gunsmith and a ATF form must be filed. ALL HAS TO BE DONE PRIOR TO ME BEING ABLE TO START MY PTA.
Bah Humbug 🤦🏾♂️
That's BS. They are violating the law ... which you posted.
Their rationalization doesn't hold water. There is nothing in the law that prohibits having parts that "could be combined" into an illegal firearm. I believe that's called Constructive Possession -- possessing the parts and having them in close proximity so as to be able to construct an illegal firearm. This usually applies to parts like full auto sears.
Any rifle LOWER with a legal UPPER can be "easily changed" with an illegal UPPER whether the lower is a rifle or pistol. The upper has nothing to do with the function of the firearm until you actually fit them together.
I'd ask for that information in writing from HPD. Getting the information secondhand from a LGS could be problematic. Did you not learn already that even gun dealers get it wrong? (refer to your previous LGS who required your rifle permit for the transfer)
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That's BS. They are violating the law ... which you posted.
Their rationalization doesn't hold water. There is nothing in the law that prohibits having parts that "could be combined" into an illegal firearm. I believe that's called Constructive Possession -- possessing the parts and having them in close proximity so as to be able to construct an illegal firearm. This usually applies to parts like full auto sears.
Any rifle LOWER with a legal UPPER can be "easily changed" with an illegal UPPER whether the lower is a rifle or pistol. The upper has nothing to do with the function of the firearm until you actually fit them together.
I'd ask for that information in writing from HPD. Getting the information secondhand from a LGS could be problematic. Did you not learn already that even gun dealers get it wrong? (refer to your previous LGS who required your rifle permit for the transfer)
Oh yes, I definitely learned that from my previous LGS.
& I agree with what you said. You can’t stop a person from doing something because he/she MIGHT do something illegal later on.
What stops a person from doing something illegal? The law and the persons choice to follow it.
It’s just how I see it. Others may see it differently 🤷🏾♂️
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Oh yes, I definitely learned that from my previous LGS.
& I agree with what you said. You can’t stop a person from doing something because he/she MIGHT do something illegal later on.
What stops a person from doing something illegal? The law and the persons choice to follow it.
It’s just how I see it. Others may see it differently 🤷🏾♂️
If they can't show you the law that requires all bolt action AR pistols have a welded mag, then ask them about constructive possession and where that is in the law.
If they are going to go down that road, they need to change the law. Right now, if your pistol AS PLANNED conforms to a legal AR pistol, that is all you need to do.
If they persist, you need to address this to the new police chief, the police commission and the AG. Explain that they are preemptively claiming you could break the law, so you need to take your build in a direction you don't want to go to satisfy the Firearms Division -- even though what you're planning is 100% within the law.
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Someone mentioned a PCC being legal at 5.5” but according to the laws posted above I don’t see how you could get away with one being legal. Am I missing something?
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Someone mentioned a PCC being legal at 5.5” but according to the laws posted above I don’t see how you could get away with one being legal. Am I missing something?
A PCC (Pistol-Caliber Carbine) uses a bullet that is designed for a pistol, normally 9mm or .45 ACP.
An AR pistol will normally be .223/5.56, which is a rifle-caliber round. Rifles can be carbines (rifle caliber firearm with short barrel). That alone doesn't make it a PCC -- the caliber bullet is a factor.
What we are talking about here is an AR pistol that doesn't meet the HRS 134 definition of "Assault Pistol."