2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: toku58 on October 21, 2020, 09:30:07 AM
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Are there any current lawsuits about HPD hindering/delaying citizens Rights to own a firearm? Currently there is a 3+ mo. Waiting period for permitted firearms owners to acquire. This seems like an infringement on our due process to exercise our RIGHT to bear arms. Especially if you already have a gun yet still need to go through this BS.
Other states run background checks at the gun shop to verify that you do not have any restriction to owning a firearm. This is immediate and can be done the same day.
We are law abiding citizen who are treated as “Guilty until proven Innocent “ how can this not be an infringement on our Rights? They infringe by delaying the process! If they are not able to execute the administrative process in a timely manner that should not be able to take away anyone’s rights!
They should have a 14 day limit to prove you can’t own a gun! It should be their responsibility to show due cause to deprive us of our Constitutional Rights! Not us to prove why we can have our Rights!
How is this backwards? Someone needs to fight for innocent until proven guilty!
Same with Conceal and Carry. They need to show just cause as to why we can’t bear arms. It shouldn’t be that we need to ask for permission to our Rights!
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Agreed, it's ridiculous in this state. Where I'm from my driver's license is my permit to acquire and permit to conceal and carry. If I want to purchase a new firearm, the gun shop calls the police station in the town my license is from and it takes maybe 5 mins and I pay and walk out. Handguns is a 3 day wait but same process.
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Right now a law suit is not in the best interest because many other city buildings are either shutdown or have a long delay. So to file a lawsuit now would not have the best odds of winning.
1 of the lawsuits by HIFICO is supposted to take effect, but COVID put it on pause. HPD was supposed to be open till 6:30pm on Wednesdays and as long as you're in line by 6:29pm. they have to service you.
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Right now a law suit is not in the best interest because many other city buildings are either shutdown or have a long delay. So to file a lawsuit now would not have the best odds of winning.
1 of the lawsuits by HIFICO is supposted to take effect, but COVID put it on pause. HPD was supposed to be open till 6:30pm on Wednesdays and as long as you're in line by 6:29pm. they have to service you.
I agree about COVID.
But my main point is that we shouldn’t have to prove anything to exercise our rights. They need to prove why we can’t have our rights.
It’s like being charged for a crime. You have No obligation to prove your innocence. They need to prove your guilt!
Once you’re on file and haven’t committed a crime there shouldn’t be all this BS.
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Right now a law suit is not in the best interest because many other city buildings are either shutdown or have a long delay. So to file a lawsuit now would not have the best odds of winning.
1 of the lawsuits by HIFICO is supposted to take effect, but COVID put it on pause. HPD was supposed to be open till 6:30pm on Wednesdays and as long as you're in line by 6:29pm. they have to service you.
Well when the State is letting tourists back - that would blow holes in the argument that COVID is still a huge concern. And per Zippz, the lawsuit is now tied to the outcome of the Young V. Hawaii case which could take a long time to resolve.
The late hours don’t really matter if not everyone who wants later hours service can’t get an appointment. There’s a lot of people who can’t even get a regular hours appointment so Toku has a very valid point.
Right now it seems people are accepting of this new appointment system and are ambivalent towards getting rid of itnor trying to roll back registration completely .
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I agree about COVID.
But my main point is that we shouldn’t have to prove anything to exercise our rights. They need to prove why we can’t have our rights.
It’s like being charged for a crime. You have No obligation to prove your innocence. They need to prove your guilt!
Once you’re on file and haven’t committed a crime there shouldn’t be all this BS.
many have been saying this for years. But lawsuits cost $. Join HIFICO if you're not already a member. They quarterback what's going on and participate in many lawsuits. We also need to rally together every legislative session because more and more gun laws get proposed every year. This past session had about 46 gun laws proposed. TBH, COVID helped not pass the rifle magazine bill.
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many have been saying this for years. But lawsuits cost $. Join HIFICO if you're not already a member. They quarterback what's going on and participate in many lawsuits. We also need to rally together every legislative session because more and more gun laws get proposed every year. This past session had about 46 gun laws proposed. TBH, COVID helped not pass the rifle magazine bill.
Yeah but COVID got the Ghost Gun bill in the emergency session :grrr:
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Right now it seems people are accepting of this new appointment system and are ambivalent towards getting rid of itnor trying to roll back registration completely .
No ambivalence here. It needs to go and the background checks need to get back to the FFL.
I also think COVID opened up the eyes of a lot of new and want to be new gun owners how hard it is to get a firearm in Hawaii. The key is to get them involved and not alienate them when they want to go to the range to shoot. Too many have the "you don't know what you're doing" attitude and talk down to newbies instead of talking with them.
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I think there's some clause in the Gove Ige's "emergency" proclamation that covers the State in regards to infringement of 2a. I'm sure HIS AG would provide some kind of top cover.
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Yeah but COVID got the Ghost Gun bill in the emergency session :grrr:
No ambivalence here. It needs to go and the background checks need to get back to the FFL.
I also think COVID opened up the eyes of a lot of new and want to be new gun owners how hard it is to get a firearm in Hawaii. The key is to get them involved and not alienate them when they want to go to the range to shoot. Too many have the "you don't know what you're doing" attitude and talk down to newbies instead of talking with them.
Mag bill might have passed too. Guaranz it will be up this year.
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By the time this could go through court would the restrictions still be in place? What would we get out of a lawsuit or class action suit?
I think in order to win the argument I think the plaintiffs would have to provide some sort of alternative way of doing it better while also satisfying covid issues.
How would you guys imagine a better system? Just increase the number of appointments? Allow the lines to form but just require large spacing?
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Yeah but COVID got the Ghost Gun bill in the emergency session :grrr:
No ambivalence here. It needs to go and the background checks need to get back to the FFL.
I also think COVID opened up the eyes of a lot of new and want to be new gun owners how hard it is to get a firearm in Hawaii. The key is to get them involved and not alienate them when they want to go to the range to shoot. Too many have the "you don't know what you're doing" attitude and talk down to newbies instead of talking with them.
HRA President agrees with you about COVD and the exponential increase in gun ownership and the appointment system as the problem.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/10/22/hawaii-news/election-pandemic-may-have-led-to-growing-interest-in-firearms-on-oahu/ (https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/10/22/hawaii-news/election-pandemic-may-have-led-to-growing-interest-in-firearms-on-oahu/)
If HRA were to rally around this, I’m sure there would be enough support for a lawsuit.
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By the time this could go through court would the restrictions still be in place? What would we get out of a lawsuit or class action suit?
I think in order to win the argument I think the plaintiffs would have to provide some sort of alternative way of doing it better while also satisfying covid issues.
How would you guys imagine a better system? Just increase the number of appointments? Allow the lines to form but just require large spacing?
Take registration out of HPD and into gun shops. There isnt really a logical reason why HPD has to physically type the serial number into their system when a gunshop/ffl can do the same thing.
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Take registration out of HPD and into gun shops. There isnt really a logical reason why HPD has to physically type the serial number into their system when a gunshop/ffl can do the same thing.
Bingo
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Take registration out of HPD and into gun shops. There isnt really a logical reason why HPD has to physically type the serial number into their system when a gunshop/ffl can do the same thing.
I can see the initial background check being done by HPD.
But if you already are on file with HPD then the GunShop should be allowed to do the check and the 14 day waiting period.
Not being staffed at HPD is a BS excuses to infringe on my RIGHTS!
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Take registration out of HPD and into gun shops. There isnt really a logical reason why HPD has to physically type the serial number into their system when a gunshop/ffl can do the same thing.
I am not against that idea but I think that would be a tough sell, they would likely object, saying that they cannot guarantee stores do a good job of registering firearms. On top of that, this suggestion wouldn't address private sales.
Plus it would require an actual law change, not something a judge can do.
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I can see the initial background check being done by HPD.
But if you already are on file with HPD then the GunShop should be allowed to do the check and the 14 day waiting period.
Not being staffed at HPD is a BS excuses to infringe on my RIGHTS!
Thats why I think HPD should just issue a driver's license type ID card that says someone is authorized to buy a gun then the buyer just shows that to the seller. That way it is a verified purchase. Oh and it should be good for pistols and rifles for 5 years.
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I can see the initial background check being done by HPD.
But if you already are on file with HPD then the GunShop should be allowed to do the check and the 14 day waiting period.
Not being staffed at HPD is a BS excuses to infringe on my RIGHTS!
NICS - Can be done while you wait at the shop, no need to involve HPD at all or tie up their resources that could be better allocated to say, fighting/solving/investigating actual crime.
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I am not against that idea but I think that would be a tough sell, they would likely object, saying that they cannot guarantee stores do a good job of registering firearms. On top of that, this suggestion wouldn't address private sales.
Plus it would require an actual law change, not something a judge can do.
In working with with the current registration system IMO, HPD sould issue Permits like a drivers license card good for a few years and the Gun shops and FFL's should be able to do the NICS and HPD (to check if Permit is still valid or invalid due to criminal activity, etc) background checks and send the information (with photo of serial number and permit number) to HPD. It would take the load off of HPD . Then just have private sales go through HPD and they can do the background checks on the private buyer and there will be no need for appointments.
The ideal system is no HPD registration and handle it like some of the other states. Go to the gun shop fill out the form and they run a NICS check and you walk out with your firearm after being cleared. Like the way I purchased my shotgun and Henry 45-70 rifle when I visited my sister in law up in Wisconsin last year.
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I am not against that idea but I think that would be a tough sell, they would likely object, saying that they cannot guarantee stores do a good job of registering firearms. On top of that, this suggestion wouldn't address private sales.
Plus it would require an actual law change, not something a judge can do.
With the new stupid ghost gun law it would need a change but technically the old laws didn't require you to go in. Also there needs to be a degree of trust. If the federal government gives them a FFL license its fairly reasonable they have that level of expertise/trust. I highly doubt its a complicated thing, filling out a form or database with information. Private sells would have to go through HPD or technically it can go through an FFL also.
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Thats why I think HPD should just issue a driver's license type ID card that says someone is authorized to buy a gun then the buyer just shows that to the seller. That way it is a verified purchase. Oh and it should be good for pistols and rifles for 5 years.
Just change that ID type to right to conceal carry also and make it even better! haha. But yeah I think thats a good idea too. Right now we have a paper form and have to jump through a bunch of loops.
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NICS - Can be done while you wait at the shop, no need to involve HPD at all or tie up their resources that could be better allocated to say, fighting/solving/investigating actual crime.
Agreed lets repeal stupid rapback. Which would be a pre-requisite to this.
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NICS - Can be done while you wait at the shop, no need to involve HPD at all or tie up their resources that could be better allocated to say, fighting/solving/investigating actual crime.
That would be fine if HPD only ran NICS checks. They check your doctor, the Hawaii Health Department, the Hawaii criminal database, etc. Would anyone outside of HPD have access to do all of that? Would we want LGS workers to have that kind of access to personal info? With NICS, all they see is a yes or no from the FBI.
Also, the 2 week wait is supposedly needed to run all of those checks and follow up with the applicant if there are questions (needs a mental health clearance letter, court records need corrections, ...). The 3-day NICS check time limit would not be adequate if all the same agencies are contacted.
Then there is the finger printing. At least your first application in this state would require a PD visit to do that.
The whole process is far beyond a NICS background check. Lawmakers have locked-in the county PDs as the sole provider for permit processing.
What about private sales? Would HPD still do those permits? What about Long gun permits being issued without a pending purchase?
As for registration, having the gun shops do that only works for the guns they sell. Private purchases would have to be handled somewhere, too, and the LGS isn't going to do it for free.
Plus, as an FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee), having them generate a registration for guns might violate the prohibition against the federal firearms registry. I'm sure if the system resides with the state, and the FFL is only inputting data, it might slide.
At this point, the whole permit application, background check and registration process would have to be overhauled to accommodate LGS doing them, and the private sales would have to be rolled up into it as well.
It's a can of worms .... figuratively speaking. :geekdanc:
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In working with with the current registration system IMO, HPD sould issue Permits like a drivers license card good for a few years and the Gun shops and FFL's should be able to do the NICS and HPD (to check if Permit is still valid or invalid due to criminal activity, etc) background checks and send the information (with photo of serial number and permit number) to HPD. It would take the load off of HPD . Then just have private sales go through HPD and they can do the background checks on the private buyer and there will be no need for appointments.
The ideal system is no HPD registration and handle it like some of the other states. Go to the gun shop fill out the form and they run a NICS check and you walk out with your firearm after being cleared. Like the way I purchased my shotgun and Henry 45-70 rifle when I visited my sister in law up in Wisconsin last year.
The advantage of a ID license would be that it would have a picture so identity can be confirmed. If you privately sell to someone you have no way of knowing whether the buyer is who he says he is. Plus my idea would be to have an ID number and the buyer could call HPD and HPD could simply confirm the ID number is still valid. This would protect honest sellers from being tricked and it would also allow for a permit that lasts longer since if someone becomes no longer allowed to own a firearm, the department can simply invalidate the ID number.
I contacted my representatives and they didn't seem thrilled by it. They stated I would need testimony from groups who would say there was a problem and a better system could be invented.
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With the new stupid ghost gun law it would need a change but technically the old laws didn't require you to go in. Also there needs to be a degree of trust. If the federal government gives them a FFL license its fairly reasonable they have that level of expertise/trust. I highly doubt its a complicated thing, filling out a form or database with information. Private sells would have to go through HPD or technically it can go through an FFL also.
Technically true, the law doesn't say you have to go to the main police station, but it does say you have to register. I think you should be able to register at any police station. Really sucks for people on the Big Island who have a lot farther to drive (IIRC).
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Get down on your knees and beg or you'll be tied to the whipping post.
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Get down on your knees and beg or you'll be tied to the whipping post.
Have you been following me on Friday nights? She said that was my safe space.... :shake:
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The reason we haven't done a lawsuit is the cost, chance of success, and time frame. A lawsuit would cost $20 to $40k. The chance of winning is low. And as someone mentioned earlier, The gun buying rush could be over before the case is settled. The money could be better spent on other cases.