2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: omnigun on November 20, 2020, 03:03:15 PM
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/politics/trump-unveils-controversial-drug-price-rules/index.html
Not the best source but the content is good, One of the few things I think trump did well, is trying to fight for drug pricing. I applaud this action and hopefully lasts after he leaves office. :shaka:
There is no good reasons USA should pay more than others for the same shit.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/politics/trump-unveils-controversial-drug-price-rules/index.html
Not the best source but the content is good, One of the few things I think trump did well, is trying to fight for drug pricing. I applaud this action and hopefully lasts after he leaves office. :shaka:
There is no good reasons USA should pay more than others for the same shit.
biden gonna reverse all of trump's actions
IF he wins...
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https://youtu.be/c0Mdj_mYyR0
Press Conference on Youtube. Go Pres Trump! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/politics/trump-unveils-controversial-drug-price-rules/index.html
Not the best source but the content is good, One of the few things I think trump did well, is trying to fight for drug pricing. I applaud this action and hopefully lasts after he leaves office. :shaka:
There is no good reasons USA should pay more than others for the same shit.
Still don't want to wait for the process to run its course
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Trump already kept his promise of lowering insulin prices for seniors. My wife and I will benefit greatly from this starting in 2021. We are going to save over $3,000 next year. I applaud his efforts. I understand this is one of the things he personally negotiated rather than having someone for his administration negotiate.
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“The most-favored-nation rule allows the US to piggyback on discounts negotiated by other countries -- since Congress has banned Medicare from negotiating with drug makers. Other nations typically pay far less for medications, in large part because their governments often determine the cost -- which runs counter to Republicans' allegiance to the free market system.
Though Trump has slammed socialist health care systems that exist in other countries and attacked his Democratic rivals for seeking to implement such a setup here, he has celebrated linking US prices to peer nations' lower costs.”
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“The most-favored-nation rule allows the US to piggyback on discounts negotiated by other countries -- since Congress has banned Medicare from negotiating with drug makers. Other nations typically pay far less for medications, in large part because their governments often determine the cost -- which runs counter to Republicans' allegiance to the free market system.
Though Trump has slammed socialist health care systems that exist in other countries and attacked his Democratic rivals for seeking to implement such a setup here, he has celebrated linking US prices to peer nations' lower costs.”
Never fails. No matter what Trump does that's good, the news finds a way to spin it negatively.
#EnemyOfThePeople
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Never fails. No matter what Trump does that's good, the news finds a way to spin it negatively.
#EnemyOfThePeople
So do you applaud Trump's socialist step of having the government control drug prices?
I mean I think this was a good step, it is just a bit ironic that republicans are cheering on a step towards socialized medicine while also trying to scare us that democrats want socialized medicine.
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So do you applaud Trump's socialist step of having the government control drug prices?
I mean I think this was a good step, it is just a bit ironic that republicans are cheering on a step towards socialized medicine while also trying to scare us that democrats want socialized medicine.
Do you have a point? Or just here to start an argument?
(This is a rhetorical question; I don't think you get what those are all about)
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So do you applaud Trump's socialist step of having the government control drug prices?
I mean I think this was a good step, it is just a bit ironic that republicans are cheering on a step towards socialized medicine while also trying to scare us that democrats want socialized medicine.
So it is a good thing but you are still going to whine about it?
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So it is a good thing but you are still going to whine about it?
Where's the cheese?
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Do you have a point? Or just here to start an argument?
I pretty clearly stated my point, not sure why you are quoting me and then asking if I have a point.
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So it is a good thing but you are still going to whine about it?
I am not whining about it, I am pointing out the irony of people praising socialism suddenly when Trump is doing it whereas talking about how bad socialism is and Biden is a socialist everywhere else.
I am not against Trump's actions on this matter. In fact I do favor some government involvement in increasing health care coverage for Americans. (Details can be provided if interested)
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I pretty clearly stated my point, not sure why you are quoting me and then asking if I have a point.
So, no. No point, since you took all those letters and words to not answer the question.
Gotcha.
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I am not whining about it, I am pointing out the irony of people praising socialism suddenly when Trump is doing it whereas talking about how bad socialism is and Biden is a socialist everywhere else.
I am not against Trump's actions on this matter. In fact I do favor some government involvement in increasing health care coverage for Americans. (Details can be provided if interested)
Expanded markets are not "Socialism." What Trump's doing is not PRICE CONTROL.
Price controls are government-mandated legal minimum or maximum prices set for
specified goods. They are usually implemented as a means of direct economic
intervention to manage the affordability of certain goods.
Show us in the plan where Trump instituted "price controls." He didn't.
But, why let facts interfere with a your poor attempt at trolling.
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Off topic, but came to mind based on recent discussion.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/3cc7d4b59895f3a62c38a062a0043731.jpg)
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Off topic, but came to mind based on recent discussion.
And the Socialists' solution? Change the name, because "Socialism" has a negative "connotation".
Progressivism
Democratic Socialism
The Democratic People's Republic of [fill in the Socialist Regime]
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I am not whining about it, I am pointing out the irony of people praising socialism suddenly when Trump is doing it whereas talking about how bad socialism is and Biden is a socialist everywhere else.
I am not against Trump's actions on this matter. In fact I do favor some government involvement in increasing health care coverage for Americans. (Details can be provided if interested)
It seems like a perfect bridge building opportunity that you decided to waste by calling out the hypocrisy of people who...can't afford expensive drugs? Since when is anti-racketeering considered socialism? Who are these radical fundamentalist libertarian strawmen you are going after?
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It seems like a perfect bridge building opportunity that you decided to waste by calling out the hypocrisy of people who...can't afford expensive drugs? Since when is anti-racketeering considered socialism? Who are these radical fundamentalist libertarian strawmen you are going after?
Good points, especially the anti-racketeering.
One of the very few legitimate roles of the US government regarding the economy is to level the playing field so nobody has an unfair advantage, whether that advantage prevents competition or it creates a defacto monopoly that allows for unrestricted price increases or price fixing.
Socialism has NOTHING to do with it.
Everybody clutched their pearls at the news of outrageous EPIPEN prices, but only Trump did anything about it.
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So, no. No point, since you took all those letters and words to not answer the question.
Gotcha.
Keep your head in the sand in the sand if you want, I am not playing your games.
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Expanded markets are not "Socialism." What Trump's doing is not PRICE CONTROL.
Show us in the plan where Trump instituted "price controls." He didn't.
But, why let facts interfere with a your poor attempt at trolling.
Oh, I'm sorry, is medicare not a socialistic program? Silly me, I thought it was a government program.
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It seems like a perfect bridge building opportunity that you decided to waste by calling out the hypocrisy of people who...can't afford expensive drugs? Since when is anti-racketeering considered socialism? Who are these radical fundamentalist libertarian strawmen you are going after?
I am happy he is doing it. I favor a limited increase in government funded healthcare. I think we should be able to talk about it without the fearmongering of anything remotely socialistic shutting down the conversation.
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Oh, I'm sorry, is medicare not a socialistic program? Silly me, I thought it was a government program.
Medicare is something workers pay into, and therefore deserve to have access to it.
Please point to the place that says systems we pay into and get benefits from later are socialist programs.
Trying to paint all government programs as socialism is a socialist-progressive-liberal tactic. Schools, fire departments and road systems are all socialist, according to the idiots trying to argue for their ideals, simply because the government manages the program. If that were the case, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT is one big socialist enterprise.
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Medicare is something workers pay into, and therefore deserve to have access to it.
Please point to the place that says systems we pay into and get benefits from later are socialist programs.
Trying to paint all government programs as socialism is a socialist-progressive-liberal tactic. Schools, fire departments and road systems are all socialist, according to the idiots trying to argue for their ideals, simply because the government manages the program. If that were the case, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT is one big socialist enterprise.
Socialist programs tax you to redistribute wealth and services. Services for all.... You really do refuse to ever be wrong even when you clearly are.... you live in a weird fantasy conservative land. Idk how you think labeling government programs as socialism is a socialist-progressive-liberal tactic. It's clearly a conservative thing.... you know Medicare for all and Republicans attacking it for socialism....
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Socialist programs tax you to redistribute wealth and services. Services for all.... You really do refuse to ever be wrong even when you clearly are.... you live in a weird fantasy conservative land. Idk how you think labeling government programs as socialism is a socialist-progressive-liberal tactic. It's clearly a conservative thing.... you know Medicare for all and Republicans attacking it for socialism....
Wrong.
Taxes are not a socialist concept. Are you telling me that Rome, a nation that rose and fell centuries before Socialism and Marx existed was a socialist nation?
That premise of yours is debunked.
Government already redistributes wealth in the form of collecting from all states and giving more back to some, and less back to others.
I refuse to be wrong when debating YOU. I have a 99.97% chance of being right, so why even pretend you know what you're typing?
Don't be too sure. A case in point can be found at Big Think, a publication whose videos and
short articles I often enjoy. An article detailing the recent surge in the popularity of socialism
was teed up this way by the brand’s social media editor: If you’re against socialism, don’t drive
on public roads or call 911!
The comment, which was liked more than 2,500 times, demonstrates either an appalling ignorance
or a blatant disdain for truth and accuracy.
Fact: In 1806, more than a decade before Karl Marx was born, the United States Congress passed, and
President Thomas Jefferson signed, legislation authorizing construction of the Cumberland Road, an interstate
highway that would stretch more than 600 miles, connecting the Potomac and Ohio Rivers.
But we shouldn't stop there. Nearly two thousand years before Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels
penned The Communist Manifesto, Rome had established what many historians consider the grandest
engineering achievement of the ancient world: a system of stone-paved highways that snaked across more
than 100 provinces, stretching some 250,000 miles. These highways were funded almost entirely with public
funds. (Exceptions were made when rich senators offered to pony up denarii on projects so they'd have their
names attached to roads.)
A publication that calls itself "Big Think" should not be conflating government spending with socialism. It
displays either ignorance, lazy thinking, or wanton dishonesty. What’s ironic is that the writer of the Big Think
article, Paul Ratner, actually attempts to make this distinction himself, citing a description of socialism from
Jacobin, a socialist magazine:
“In their guide, the writers and editors of Jacobin also try to dispel some of the
confusion related to socialism. In particular, they argue, many people tend to
associate any kind of government institution, even the DMV, with socialism. But
just because it’s a part of the government doesn’t make it socialist.”
So please, once and for all: can we retire the tired fallacy that government services and socialism are one
and the same? They’re not.
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/socialism-not-public-roads-and-911-service/
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Wrong.
Taxes are not a socialist concept. Are you telling me that Rome, a nation that rose and fell centuries before Socialism and Marx existed was a socialist nation?
That premise of yours is debunked.
Government already redistributes wealth in the form of collecting from all states and giving more back to some, and less back to others.
I refuse to be wrong when debating YOU. I have a 99.97% chance of being right, so why even pretend you know what you're typing?
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/socialism-not-public-roads-and-911-service/
By the way, the people coming up with the "socialist" programs, as you say, are elected by the people.
Since when does socialism allow the people to vote in, AND OUT, of office anyone they disagree with? The decision making power rests with the people, not the government.
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Think “Democratic Socialism” is good for America? Well, expect a move toward paying 10% (or more) in taxes. Maybe closer to +20%.
Price of freedom? ::) #GMAFB
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Socialism is when the financial elitists bribe the Clintons to deregulate the financial industry and then proceed to run the economy into the ground in 2008, followed by massive bailouts for too-big-to-fail Wall Street Firms while Main Street picks up the tab by getting slapped with austerity measures and nobody goes to prison. Trillions of dollars of redistributed wealth, and they wonder why we sent Trump after them.
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Wrong.
Taxes are not a socialist concept. Are you telling me that Rome, a nation that rose and fell centuries before Socialism and Marx existed was a socialist nation?
That premise of yours is debunked.
Government already redistributes wealth in the form of collecting from all states and giving more back to some, and less back to others.
I refuse to be wrong when debating YOU. I have a 99.97% chance of being right, so why even pretend you know what you're typing?
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/socialism-not-public-roads-and-911-service/
Socialism isn't a concept that appeared out of thin air. Like all other concepts it took from others. Socialism uses taxes to fund public programs to "redistribute" the wealth and force some weird attempt of equality. It utterly fails but its a backbone of socialists beliefs.
Now republicans like to call universal healthcare, socialist. That's just expanded Medicare. How do you draw the line?
Socialism is when the financial elitists bribe the Clintons to deregulate the financial industry and then proceed to run the economy into the ground in 2008, followed by massive bailouts for too-big-to-fail Wall Street Firms while Main Street picks up the tab by getting slapped with austerity measures and nobody goes to prison. Trillions of dollars of redistributed wealth, and they wonder why we sent Trump after them.
"Clintons" you do know he wasn't president for 8 years before then right?
Think “Democratic Socialism” is good for America? Well, expect a move toward paying 10% (or more) in taxes. Maybe closer to +20%.
Price of freedom? ::) #GMAFB
Yup socialism is retarded fuck high taxes.
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Socialism isn't a concept that appeared out of thin air. Like all other concepts it took from others. Socialism uses taxes to fund public programs to "redistribute" the wealth and force some weird attempt of equality. It utterly fails but its a backbone of socialists beliefs.
Now republicans like to call universal healthcare, socialist. That's just expanded Medicare. How do you draw the line?
"Clintons" you do know he wasn't president for 8 years before then right?
Yup socialism is retarded fuck high taxes.
So now you're an expert on the origins of all political and socio-economic systems throughout the history of man?
So, genius, educate us all. When did Socialism first appear historically? If it was before Karl Marx and the Communist Manifesto, then what country was using it as their model? What was it called? What were the highlights of the system? Did it last? Was it successful? How long did it survive there?
Please, include as many links as you can Google. I'd be interested to know how Socialism evolved into the authoritative, equal outcome system of economics Karl wrote about.
Who convinced you that universal healthcare (aka "single payer healthcare") is "just expanded Medicare?" Whoever did lied to you.
p.s. Here's a hint: There's a basic tenant of Socialism that prevented if from ever being implemented on a national scale, one that was overcome with the industrial revolution. Think about it.
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"Clintons" you do know he wasn't president for 8 years before then right?
Who repealed the Glass-Steagall act? It is rather odd that someone on a pro-2a website wants to defend the Clintons.
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Medicare is something workers pay into, and therefore deserve to have access to it.
Please point to the place that says systems we pay into and get benefits from later are socialist programs.
Trying to paint all government programs as socialism is a socialist-progressive-liberal tactic. Schools, fire departments and road systems are all socialist, according to the idiots trying to argue for their ideals, simply because the government manages the program. If that were the case, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT is one big socialist enterprise.
Not everyone who receives medicare pays into medicare though. Medicare is government provided health care to a certain extent. So my point is that if we can accept medicare then we can talk about government provided health care without fear mongering about socialism.
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Not everyone who receives medicare pays into medicare though. Medicare is government provided health care to a certain extent. So my point is that if we can accept medicare then we can talk about government provided health care without fear mongering about socialism.
U should look into how countries with free healthcare and how the people like it.
Main take away is weeks/months to see a doctor, less youre bleeding out in the ER. Then they will work on you fast.
Ive talked to maybe 6 diff people who received the free healthcare and all 6 said it sucks. Germany, england x3, taiwan, and brittan.
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U should look into how countries with free healthcare and how the people like it.
Main take away is weeks/months to see a doctor, less youre bleeding out in the ER. Then they will work on you fast.
Ive talked to maybe 6 diff people who received the free healthcare and all 6 said it sucks. Germany, england x3, taiwan, and brittan.
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what's the difference between england and "brittan"?
focus
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Not everyone who receives medicare pays into medicare though. Medicare is government provided health care to a certain extent. So my point is that if we can accept medicare then we can talk about government provided health care without fear mongering about socialism.
Here is a clarification of what you said here. Just so you know.
No matter what, you cannot get Medicare without paying FOR it. Period. You can qualify to get it without paying INTO it as a worker. But only through your spouse if they are 65 or older and they are already paying FOR it. And you must be married at least a year in order to qualify to pay FOR Medicare if you never paid INTO it as a worker. Then you can pay FOR it and get it. But under no circumstances can anyone get Medicare without paying FOR it. And, BTW, you are forced into paying FOR it when you turn 65 except under certain rare personal circumstances. And it is NOT government provided healthcare. It is medical insurance you purchase from the government. And it is not good medical insurance either. But that is a different topic.
You might be confusing Medicare with Medicaid. Which is an emergency type of Federally funded and state government provided healthcare which one generally does not have to pay for in order to receive it. However, if one works and pays taxes to the Feds and the States then they are paying for Medicaid through their general tax deductions from their paychecks. This is separate from the Medicare deduction from your paycheck. Generally speaking tho, people who qualify to receive Medicaid are existing below the poverty level.
The Medicare and Medicaid programs are very complicated to understand and navigate. When you make broad statements like you did, it makes it sound like Medicare is a socialism program. It isn’t. It is literally health insurance that you pay for 2 ways from the government. You pay Into it out of your paycheck through specific deductions while you are of normal working age. And then you pay for it every month out of your SS check when you turn 65 except under some rare circumstances. But if you don’t start paying for it when you turn 65 it will cost you a lot more per month when, not if, you do start paying for it.
Medicare Part A (Hospital Coverage) does not have a monthly cost to it if you paid into it for 40 quarters or more during your working years. Medicare Part B (General Medical Coverage) starts immediately at age 65 and you have to make monthly payments for it. Then there is Medicare Part D. Part D coverage is paid to a private insurance company by you. And then there is Medicare Part C (Advantage Plans) which tries to supplement Medicare and is paid for by Medicare directly to a private insurance company. But it covers little more than Medicare itself. Then there are supplement plans that you pay for to private insurance companies that can cover everything that Medicare doesn’t.
See how complicated the subject of Medicare is? You need to qualify your statements about paying for it and paying into it. Because you can get it without paying into it under rare circumstances but you cannot get it without paying for it monthly. And Since you have to pay for it monthly, it literally cannot be a socialism program. I hope this clears things up.
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U should look into how countries with free healthcare and how the people like it.
Main take away is weeks/months to see a doctor, less youre bleeding out in the ER. Then they will work on you fast.
Ive talked to maybe 6 diff people who received the free healthcare and all 6 said it sucks. Germany, england x3, taiwan, and brittan.
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I believe Frontline did a special on this subject a few years back, they covered about 5 different countries with 5 different types of government healthcare programs. Each had their issues to be sure but long waits was not universal among them. Some had wait-time issues, some had funding issues, some had quality issues. No system is perfect to be sure.
My wife is from Japan and she is quite satisfied with their health care system. The problem they have IIRC is that there is not enough funding right now. It might have something to do with their aging population raising the costs.
I think we as conservatives need to be able to have real discussions about the pros and the cons without it getting shutdown by labeling it all socialism. I think we as a country need to move a little bit more to the left on the issue but also find a balance with the best from both sides. The main thing I think we should push for is socialized medicine for people under 18, the same as we do with K-12 education, etc.
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Here is a clarification of what you said here. Just so you know.
No matter what, you cannot get Medicare without paying FOR it. Period. You can qualify to get it without paying INTO it as a worker. But only through your spouse if they are 65 or older and they are already paying FOR it. And you must be married at least a year in order to qualify to pay FOR Medicare if you never paid INTO it as a worker. Then you can pay FOR it and get it. But under no circumstances can anyone get Medicare without paying FOR it. And, BTW, you are forced into paying FOR it when you turn 65 except under certain rare personal circumstances. And it is NOT government provided healthcare. It is medical insurance you purchase from the government. And it is not good medical insurance either. But that is a different topic.
You might be confusing Medicare with Medicaid. Which is an emergency type of Federally funded and state government provided healthcare which one generally does not have to pay for in order to receive it. However, if one works and pays taxes to the Feds and the States then they are paying for Medicaid through their general tax deductions from their paychecks. This is separate from the Medicare deduction from your paycheck. Generally speaking tho, people who qualify to receive Medicaid are existing below the poverty level.
The Medicare and Medicaid programs are very complicated to understand and navigate. When you make broad statements like you did, it makes it sound like Medicare is a socialism program. It isn’t. It is literally health insurance that you pay for 2 ways from the government. You pay Into it out of your paycheck through specific deductions while you are of normal working age. And then you pay for it every month out of your SS check when you turn 65 except under some rare circumstances. But if you don’t start paying for it when you turn 65 it will cost you a lot more per month when, not if, you do start paying for it.
Medicare Part A (Hospital Coverage) does not have a monthly cost to it if you paid into it for 40 quarters or more during your working years. Medicare Part B (General Medical Coverage) starts immediately at age 65 and you have to make monthly payments for it. Then there is Medicare Part D. Part D coverage is paid to a private insurance company by you. And then there is Medicare Part C (Advantage Plans) which tries to supplement Medicare and is paid for by Medicare directly to a private insurance company. But it covers little more than Medicare itself. Then there are supplement plans that you pay for to private insurance companies that can cover everything that Medicare doesn’t.
See how complicated the subject of Medicare is? You need to qualify your statements about paying for it and paying into it. Because you can get it without paying into it under rare circumstances but you cannot get it without paying for it monthly. And Since you have to pay for it monthly, it literally cannot be a socialism program. I hope this clears things up.
You are correct, medicare is insurance, not healthcare, I should have made that distinction. The healthcare discussion often crosses back and forth mixing health care and health insurance.
I didn't mean to make medicare sound like a full blown socialist medical program, I was only pointing out that there are some socialistic elements to it. I was thinking of people who can get medicare without paying into it when they have social security disability, Lou Gehrigs disease, or a kidney problem requiring dialysis.
https://www.healthline.com/health/medicare/can-you-get-medicare-if-you-have-never-worked#medicare-eligibility.
So correct me if I am wrong here but medicare is basically a tax to pay for a government funded health insurance. So if we can accept that and not call for it to be removed, I don't think we can object so strongly against something like Obamacare which didn't privatize health care or health insurance. Obamacare wasn't socialized healthcare was it? Don't get me wrong, I have a number of criticisms about Obamacare, I am just trying to make sure we are consistent here. If we are fine with medicare then we can't bemoan any and all other forms of government subsidized healthcare and/or health insurance.
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Not all socialized medicine is bad, in fact for some things it is far superior. It is very easy to slip into identity politics and lose track of the real issue, though, which is controlling costs. Right now Americans pay ridiculous amounts of money for healthcare that is substandard in most cases. This is because of a predatory Financial Services sector of our economy that has latched on and refuses to let go. It is not doctors who decide what treatment is appropriate, but accountants and algorithms.
Absurd healthcare costs and layers of useless overpaid middle men are a huge chunk of our "economy". Unfortunately tackling that problem by any means other than extend-and-pretend will trigger a 2008 crash on steroids. Politicians know the crash is inevitable, but nobody wants to be blamed for setting it off.
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You are correct, medicare is insurance, not healthcare, I should have made that distinction. The healthcare discussion often crosses back and forth mixing health care and health insurance.
I didn't mean to make medicare sound like a full blown socialist medical program, I was only pointing out that there are some socialistic elements to it. I was thinking of people who can get medicare without paying into it when they have social security disability, Lou Gehrigs disease, or a kidney problem requiring dialysis.
https://www.healthline.com/health/medicare/can-you-get-medicare-if-you-have-never-worked#medicare-eligibility.
So correct me if I am wrong here but medicare is basically a tax to pay for a government funded health insurance. So if we can accept that and not call for it to be removed, I don't think we can object so strongly against something like Obamacare which didn't privatize health care or health insurance. Obamacare wasn't socialized healthcare was it? Don't get me wrong, I have a number of criticisms about Obamacare, I am just trying to make sure we are consistent here. If we are fine with medicare then we can't bemoan any and all other forms of government subsidized healthcare and/or health insurance.
My wife gets Medicare before age 65 because she is now disabled. It is a very onerous path to take and we hired a lawyer to help us through the process because we couldn’t afford the more common process of trying to do it ourselves. When you try to get it yourself you are prone to having to get turned down usually twice and then hire the lawyer to represent you at the final appeal. There is around an 80% failure rate. So we hired the lawyer in the beginning of the process and they filled out the paperwork and did some legwork for us making sure she was approved the first time. Which is rare. Then she had to wait two years to qualify for Medicare. By hiring the lawyer first thing we save at least a year if not two.
Here is the thing about getting Medicare without working and paying into it. For Medicare Part A, once you qualify for Medicare, and have never paid into it, the monthly cost for Medicare part A is quite high IMO. It has no monthly cost if you paid into Medicare as a worker for 40 quarters or more. And Medicare Part B is also quite high in monthly cost if you never worked and paid into Medicare. And basic Medicare coverage is quite bad. To me Medicare is not worth the money at this point. What you get for paying into it during your working years is a huge discount off the monthly premiums. I don’t consider it a tax as it is part of the entire Social Security umbrella that provides help to you when you retire. That is why you get such huge monthly discounts off the monthly premiums if you worked and paid into it. Good, bad or indifferent, the SS program which includes Medicare was designed as a supplement to retirement. Unfortunately, this has become more of a crutch for people who use the SS program as their entire retirement. The thing about Medicare being a tax is that you need not have to pay into it (See below).
The advent of the entire SS System including Medicare being available to those who qualify for SS Disability (whether they ever paid into the system or not) is a much more recent abomination of the system. It was never designed to cover anyone under those circumstances. How it got this way was from politicians making promises to modify the system in exchange for donations and votes. You can imagine the insurance industry was lobbying heavily for that. SS and Medicare were originally designed so that more money went into the system than went out. And it was supposed to have been kept separate from the general fund so politicians couldn’t get their hands on it. Of course that changed as well. Which is why the entire system is now going bankrupt. But that again is another topic for discussion. Originally only people who paid in received the benefits of the system. When you start including people who never pay into the system then more money goes out than comes in. But there are still other reasons I don’t consider it a tax. And that is due to the fact you can work all your life for a state or local government and as long as you are covered by a qualified health plan like my friends who paid into CalPers then they never had SS nor Medicare taken out of their checks. Not a tax.
Now Obamacare is another story. Obamacare as you noted is healthcare and not health insurance. Mostly defined this way due to the fact that no one is turned down due to a previous condition. But in my opinion it is a tax. Because the Obamacare program requires you to be covered under your employers health plan which you pay for directly or indirectly, or you have to buy into Obamacare. The only other choice you have is to pay a non participation tax. But that is taxation without representation and is illegal under our system. In my opinion this is a tax. And in my opinion forcing a tax upon someone who receives no benefit is socialism.
Sorry this is so long. To sum things up, SS and Medicare were not originally supposed to be government subsidized. The idea was more money coming in than going out. And funds kept separately. And it worked great for a long time. And if the program had never been expanded to include those who never paid into the system and if the funds were not dumped into the general fund where politicians could raid the funds and steal it from retirees then even with the advent of the Boomers retiring I believe the system could have handled it until the Boomers started dying off faster than they are retiring. So eventually the system will go bankrupt and it will have to become government subsidized or radically changed. But at this time it is not subsidized by the government. It is administered by the government but not subsidized. Obamacare is both administered and subsidized by the government. I am on Obamacare not by my choice. And my premiums are partially paid to Blue Cross by the government which is a subsidy. It is very expensive and I have poor coverage. But that is another topic for another time.
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Health insurance (HMSA, Kaiser, etc), Medicare, and Medicaid are some things that I experienced while taking care of my dad. Luckily, in general, my dad's health costs were covered since he had dual coverage with HMSA and Medicare. However, it was somewhat of a nightmare at times weeding through the rules, even for hospital admin/accountants. To the point where they were quibbling over whether or not what condition would constitute admittance being covered even with orders from Doctors. Changes in care plans isn't something that they seem to deal with. An example is if someone comes in for something planned as outpatient and then needs to be admitted. Quite frustrating at times.
Overall, I believe the healthcare industry is effed up. It is my opinion that admin and others are business minded, not healthcare minded or priortized. Just more greed people getting rich at patient's expense. Even for me. My back surgery was put off while insurance was being figured out. Whereas maybe 2 years before, my Doc said he could've gotten me into the OR the day after the initial consult. :grrr:
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Health insurance (HMSA, Kaiser, etc), Medicare, and Medicaid are some things that I experienced while taking care of my dad. Luckily, in general, my dad's health costs were covered since he had dual coverage with HMSA and Medicare. However, it was somewhat of a nightmare at times weeding through the rules, even for hospital admin/accountants. To the point where they were quibbling over whether or not what condition would constitute admittance being covered even with orders from Doctors. Changes in care plans isn't something that they seem to deal with. An example is if someone comes in for something planned as outpatient and then needs to be admitted. Quite frustrating at times.
Overall, I believe the healthcare industry is effed up. It is my opinion that admin and others are business minded, not healthcare minded or priortized. Just more greed people getting rich at patient's expense. Even for me. My back surgery was put off while insurance was being figured out. Whereas maybe 2 years before, my Doc said he could've gotten me into the OR the day after the initial consult. :grrr:
There are actually some good things about Medicare that I like. If you paid into it all your working years, then the cost is minimal even tho the coverage is not great. But there are also supplement plans which approximately double the cost but they pay the remainder of what Medicare doesn’t cover. It literally gives you almost 100% coverage of average issues for less than $350/month. Considering my Obamacare plan is almost $900/month (Some of which is supplemented by you working stiffs :rofl:) next year for lousy coverage, Medicare with a full supplement plan starts looking like a bargain.
Most every doctor knows how to work the Medicare system. And if they make a mistake, Medicare tells them how or what to do to correct it. They also know what’s covered and what’s not so they don’t waste their time trying to bill for something they won’t get paid for. That’s why medical billing people are worth their weight in gold. Medicare and the supplement plan so far for my wife has paid pretty much 100% of all her medical care. With the exception of one particular blood test and her prescriptions. I like that because paying co payments and deductibles gets involved and complicated as often as my wife needs care. I am still dealing with that particular blood test. I paid it and my check cleared but the test facility never credited my account with my payment. This is the second time. So this time I am just going to wait until they try and collect it. Being proactive did not seem to help after the first time.
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This is meant to be reminder to those Vets here.
Get enrolled in the VA medical system. My drug costs are $8 per prescription
per month regardless of what the drug is.
I just received my Medicare card and that card costs me more every billing than all
my VA costs (doctors and pills) for all of 2020.
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There are actually some good things about Medicare that I like. If you paid into it all your working years, then the cost is minimal even tho the coverage is not great. But there are also supplement plans which approximately double the cost but they pay the remainder of what Medicare doesn’t cover. It literally gives you almost 100% coverage of average issues for less than $350/month. Considering my Obamacare plan is almost $900/month (Some of which is supplemented by you working stiffs :rofl:) next year for lousy coverage, Medicare with a full supplement plan starts looking like a bargain.
Most every doctor knows how to work the Medicare system. And if they make a mistake, Medicare tells them how or what to do to correct it. They also know what’s covered and what’s not so they don’t waste their time trying to bill for something they won’t get paid for. That’s why medical billing people are worth their weight in gold. Medicare and the supplement plan so far for my wife has paid pretty much 100% of all her medical care. With the exception of one particular blood test and her prescriptions. I like that because paying co payments and deductibles gets involved and complicated as often as my wife needs care. I am still dealing with that particular blood test. I paid it and my check cleared but the test facility never credited my account with my payment. This is the second time. So this time I am just going to wait until they try and collect it. Being proactive did not seem to help after the first time.
That was one of things I noted. In one of the examples of difficulties noted above, I clearly remember the "main" billing person was on leave and the "second best" was on a lunch break. Just so happens was when we were trying to find out if we were going or staying.
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My wife gets Medicare before age 65 because she is now disabled. It is a very onerous path to take and we hired a lawyer to help us through the process because we couldn’t afford the more common process of trying to do it ourselves. When you try to get it yourself you are prone to having to get turned down usually twice and then hire the lawyer to represent you at the final appeal. There is around an 80% failure rate. So we hired the lawyer in the beginning of the process and they filled out the paperwork and did some legwork for us making sure she was approved the first time. Which is rare. Then she had to wait two years to qualify for Medicare. By hiring the lawyer first thing we save at least a year if not two.
Here is the thing about getting Medicare without working and paying into it. For Medicare Part A, once you qualify for Medicare, and have never paid into it, the monthly cost for Medicare part A is quite high IMO. It has no monthly cost if you paid into Medicare as a worker for 40 quarters or more. And Medicare Part B is also quite high in monthly cost if you never worked and paid into Medicare. And basic Medicare coverage is quite bad. To me Medicare is not worth the money at this point. What you get for paying into it during your working years is a huge discount off the monthly premiums. I don’t consider it a tax as it is part of the entire Social Security umbrella that provides help to you when you retire. That is why you get such huge monthly discounts off the monthly premiums if you worked and paid into it. Good, bad or indifferent, the SS program which includes Medicare was designed as a supplement to retirement. Unfortunately, this has become more of a crutch for people who use the SS program as their entire retirement. The thing about Medicare being a tax is that you need not have to pay into it (See below).
The advent of the entire SS System including Medicare being available to those who qualify for SS Disability (whether they ever paid into the system or not) is a much more recent abomination of the system. It was never designed to cover anyone under those circumstances. How it got this way was from politicians making promises to modify the system in exchange for donations and votes. You can imagine the insurance industry was lobbying heavily for that. SS and Medicare were originally designed so that more money went into the system than went out. And it was supposed to have been kept separate from the general fund so politicians couldn’t get their hands on it. Of course that changed as well. Which is why the entire system is now going bankrupt. But that again is another topic for discussion. Originally only people who paid in received the benefits of the system. When you start including people who never pay into the system then more money goes out than comes in. But there are still other reasons I don’t consider it a tax. And that is due to the fact you can work all your life for a state or local government and as long as you are covered by a qualified health plan like my friends who paid into CalPers then they never had SS nor Medicare taken out of their checks. Not a tax.
Now Obamacare is another story. Obamacare as you noted is healthcare and not health insurance. Mostly defined this way due to the fact that no one is turned down due to a previous condition. But in my opinion it is a tax. Because the Obamacare program requires you to be covered under your employers health plan which you pay for directly or indirectly, or you have to buy into Obamacare. The only other choice you have is to pay a non participation tax. But that is taxation without representation and is illegal under our system. In my opinion this is a tax. And in my opinion forcing a tax upon someone who receives no benefit is socialism.
Sorry this is so long. To sum things up, SS and Medicare were not originally supposed to be government subsidized. The idea was more money coming in than going out. And funds kept separately. And it worked great for a long time. And if the program had never been expanded to include those who never paid into the system and if the funds were not dumped into the general fund where politicians could raid the funds and steal it from retirees then even with the advent of the Boomers retiring I believe the system could have handled it until the Boomers started dying off faster than they are retiring. So eventually the system will go bankrupt and it will have to become government subsidized or radically changed. But at this time it is not subsidized by the government. It is administered by the government but not subsidized. Obamacare is both administered and subsidized by the government. I am on Obamacare not by my choice. And my premiums are partially paid to Blue Cross by the government which is a subsidy. It is very expensive and I have poor coverage. But that is another topic for another time.
Thanks for the history lesson. I guess getting into the weeds, one could favor the old medicare system but not all the new additions. I am young enough where I haven't bothered to look into how to apply for all the benefits. I have heard great stories about medicare and terrible stories about medicare so I don't really have an opinion on it one way or another. As I said I favor some government subsidized health care but not full blown government system. Unfortunately it is such a complicated market with so many moving parts and incentives not to change it for the better. Lots of intriguing ideas on how to go about it though.
Unfortunately one of the worst parts about this type of program is when the government raids it for other things. It is even worse when the republicans do it but that is another issue.
I agree with you on Obamacare, it is and was always a tax. My biggest criticisms is that it really didn't do much to make healthcare affordable, only tried to make insurance more affordable (which in some ways it did and others it failed). Obamacare seemed like trying to compromise between everyone getting coverage while still letting the market work, But the failure there is that the market isn't working well for the consumer right now.
I have a special needs brother who lives in another state. He functions well enough he can usually hold down real basic job like a dishwasher but can't manage his money well. For people like him I do believe there should be a social safety net. But for the average person not everything should be free and provided for either.
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Thanks for the history lesson. I guess getting into the weeds, one could favor the old medicare system but not all the new additions. I am young enough where I haven't bothered to look into how to apply for all the benefits. I have heard great stories about medicare and terrible stories about medicare so I don't really have an opinion on it one way or another. As I said I favor some government subsidized health care but not full blown government system. Unfortunately it is such a complicated market with so many moving parts and incentives not to change it for the better. Lots of intriguing ideas on how to go about it though.
Unfortunately one of the worst parts about this type of program is when the government raids it for other things. It is even worse when the republicans do it but that is another issue.
I agree with you on Obamacare, it is and was always a tax. My biggest criticisms is that it really didn't do much to make healthcare affordable, only tried to make insurance more affordable (which in some ways it did and others it failed). Obamacare seemed like trying to compromise between everyone getting coverage while still letting the market work, But the failure there is that the market isn't working well for the consumer right now.
I have a special needs brother who lives in another state. He functions well enough he can usually hold down real basic job like a dishwasher but can't manage his money well. For people like him I do believe there should be a social safety net. But for the average person not everything should be free and provided for either.
It is hard not to speak to the details of the SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare without getting into the weeds.
So you made the statement that Obamacare tried to make insurance more affordable. Then you said in some ways it did. I am not aware of any way it did. Perhaps you can elaborate on that?
You also said that the market isn’t working well for the consumer right now. As it turns out before Obamacare the market for health insurance only was working well for the consumer. But we were told it was not and that insurance was too expensive. I’m not including drug pricing in my statement. This is verified by the way Obamacare actually took away the market for the consumer by practically eliminating all competition. Which is one reason healthcare premiums increased over 100% in one year here in AZ. Due to the way Obamacare was implemented the insurance companies couldn’t compete and make any money. Especially the smaller companies. So only the largest companies stuck it out until they all left except one. Which of course removed competition and allowed the one remaining company to raise prices at will. Another way Obamacare raised prices is by forcing someone who can’t get coverage thru an employer or thru Medicare (IE Me) to get coverage thru the government. And now that there is only one company providing Obamacare thru the government portal so I have no choices. It is Obamacare thru Blue Cross or I have no coverage and have to pay a tax penalty for not being covered. Because the legislature did not remove the restriction on buying insurance across state lines I cannot shop for insurance. And of course the coverage on said insurance is not good at all. While there are many other reasons, these are the two main reasons that the market is not working well for the consumer right now. If you couldn’t tell I am angry about this.
As far as your brother is concerned I am sorry. What I will say is that my wife used to work for a non profit there in Hawaii, that specialized in helping people like your brother to live on their own. This includes helping them with their finances and shopping and money handling in general. They helped them get jobs, helped with transportation and medical needs. They offered a whole slew of services that of course were paid for by grants and subsidized by the government. Unfortunately this company was shuttered by the Feds when they found the CEO was tapping the grant money for himself. But I’m sure there are other companies there doing the same thing. If he already is not taking advantage of this type of service I highly recommend seeking one out. It will help him live on his own and I am sure you know that makes a huge difference in their quality of life.
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It is hard not to speak to the details of the SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare without getting into the weeds.
So you made the statement that Obamacare tried to make insurance more affordable. Then you said in some ways it did. I am not aware of any way it did. Perhaps you can elaborate on that?
One of the things Obamacare did (if I understand correctly) was to set limits on how high insurance can be set compared to the lowest prices. So for example you couldn't set grandma's insurance 100x that of grandson's insurance. I believe the number was like 6x but I would have to look it up. This made insurance cheaper for grandma but more expensive for grandson. Another way is the subsidies and while that is not technically cheaper insurance, it made insurance more affordable to the lowest income earners. Downside was that it also bumped up premiums for a lot of other middle to high income earners. I don't know the breakdown but part of this I think is from the subsidies but other parts were also regulations, such as prohibiting using preexisting conditions to deny payment for care. I think there are a few other ways but those are two of the main examples I can recall.
You also said that the market isn’t working well for the consumer right now. As it turns out before Obamacare the market for health insurance only was working well for the consumer. But we were told it was not and that insurance was too expensive. I’m not including drug pricing in my statement. This is verified by the way Obamacare actually took away the market for the consumer by practically eliminating all competition. Which is one reason healthcare premiums increased over 100% in one year here in AZ. Due to the way Obamacare was implemented the insurance companies couldn’t compete and make any money. Especially the smaller companies. So only the largest companies stuck it out until they all left except one. Which of course removed competition and allowed the one remaining company to raise prices at will. Another way Obamacare raised prices is by forcing someone who can’t get coverage thru an employer or thru Medicare (IE Me) to get coverage thru the government. And now that there is only one company providing Obamacare thru the government portal so I have no choices. It is Obamacare thru Blue Cross or I have no coverage and have to pay a tax penalty for not being covered. Because the legislature did not remove the restriction on buying insurance across state lines I cannot shop for insurance. And of course the coverage on said insurance is not good at all. While there are many other reasons, these are the two main reasons that the market is not working well for the consumer right now. If you couldn’t tell I am angry about this.
As far as your brother is concerned I am sorry. What I will say is that my wife used to work for a non profit there in Hawaii, that specialized in helping people like your brother to live on their own. This includes helping them with their finances and shopping and money handling in general. They helped them get jobs, helped with transportation and medical needs. They offered a whole slew of services that of course were paid for by grants and subsidized by the government. Unfortunately this company was shuttered by the Feds when they found the CEO was tapping the grant money for himself. But I’m sure there are other companies there doing the same thing. If he already is not taking advantage of this type of service I highly recommend seeking one out. It will help him live on his own and I am sure you know that makes a huge difference in their quality of life.
Hmmm, working well for the consumer could be looked at a number of ways: price, quality, speed, etc. I certainly agree that Obamacare has hurt the consumer in a number of ways though. However if we go back to the ban on using pre-existing conditions to deny coverage, this becomes a double edged sword for the consumer. It raises the cost for insurance but also prevents the insurance from using that sort of technicality to deny coverage. Is that a win? Depends on whether you could have been denied a pre-existing coverage I suppose. As for shopping across state lines, I sure don't think it would hurt costs however I have read a number of sources which suggest the savings to the consumer would not be significant. Plus, isn't competition non-existent already for a lot of people? Those people who only have Kaiser as an employer choice can't shop around, furthermore, who reads all the fine print on their health insurance before they sign up anyway? It is messy and I have heard countless anecdotes about horror stories with exorbitant prices and the tiniest of loopholes leaving even families with insurance in massive debt.
As for my brother I am not really involved in his life much. My dad set up a system so that money will slowly but regularly be put into his account even after my dad dies. This will help him function day to day but not with the big things. He probably has a social worker too, I just don't know the details on that end.
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One of the things Obamacare did (if I understand correctly) was to set limits on how high insurance can be set compared to the lowest prices. So for example you couldn't set grandma's insurance 100x that of grandson's insurance. I believe the number was like 6x but I would have to look it up. This made insurance cheaper for grandma but more expensive for grandson. Another way is the subsidies and while that is not technically cheaper insurance, it made insurance more affordable to the lowest income earners. Downside was that it also bumped up premiums for a lot of other middle to high income earners. I don't know the breakdown but part of this I think is from the subsidies but other parts were also regulations, such as prohibiting using preexisting conditions to deny payment for care. I think there are a few other ways but those are two of the main examples I can recall.
Hmmm, working well for the consumer could be looked at a number of ways: price, quality, speed, etc. I certainly agree that Obamacare has hurt the consumer in a number of ways though. However if we go back to the ban on using pre-existing conditions to deny coverage, this becomes a double edged sword for the consumer. It raises the cost for insurance but also prevents the insurance from using that sort of technicality to deny coverage. Is that a win? Depends on whether you could have been denied a pre-existing coverage I suppose. As for shopping across state lines, I sure don't think it would hurt costs however I have read a number of sources which suggest the savings to the consumer would not be significant. Plus, isn't competition non-existent already for a lot of people? Those people who only have Kaiser as an employer choice can't shop around, furthermore, who reads all the fine print on their health insurance before they sign up anyway? It is messy and I have heard countless anecdotes about horror stories with exorbitant prices and the tiniest of loopholes leaving even families with insurance in massive debt.
As for my brother I am not really involved in his life much. My dad set up a system so that money will slowly but regularly be put into his account even after my dad dies. This will help him function day to day but not with the big things. He probably has a social worker too, I just don't know the details on that end.
I guess I am not aware of the price per age aspect of Obamacare. It’s not important enough for me to go look it up. It won’t change anything for me. What I can tell you, and this is my opinion only, between the terrible coverage and high premium prices it sure feels like the insurance companies had their hand in the writing of Obamacare. The coverages are so bad, the out of pocket above and beyond the monthly premiums is very high and the monthly premiums are very high as well. I wish Kaiser was out here I would go with them if I was “allowed” to. My friends there in Hawaii are paying under $300 per month for Kaiser. That is what they tell me so I cannot verify that. I had Kaiser for a few years while working for one company there. They were actually pretty good. And they did well for my wife, too.
I can hardly wait til I’m 65 and qualify for Medicare as between the monthly premium for Medicare and the Supplement Plan F or G I will only pay out approximately $300-$350 per month and all my healthcare will be covered almost 100%. Not including drugs, dental and vision. I paid into it and I deserve to get the benefits of paying into it.
I’m not so sure we will go back to the pre-existing condition issue. I think enough people feel strongly about it that it will go by the wayside. And we will have healthcare instead of health insurance. But of course that means costs are going to go up. I’m in that category now. And insurance premiums are at an all time high right now. Sad.
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I guess I am not aware of the price per age aspect of Obamacare. It’s not important enough for me to go look it up. It won’t change anything for me. What I can tell you, and this is my opinion only, between the terrible coverage and high premium prices it sure feels like the insurance companies had their hand in the writing of Obamacare. The coverages are so bad, the out of pocket above and beyond the monthly premiums is very high and the monthly premiums are very high as well. I wish Kaiser was out here I would go with them if I was “allowed” to. My friends there in Hawaii are paying under $300 per month for Kaiser. That is what they tell me so I cannot verify that. I had Kaiser for a few years while working for one company there. They were actually pretty good. And they did well for my wife, too.
I can hardly wait til I’m 65 and qualify for Medicare as between the monthly premium for Medicare and the Supplement Plan F or G I will only pay out approximately $300-$350 per month and all my healthcare will be covered almost 100%. Not including drugs, dental and vision. I paid into it and I deserve to get the benefits of paying into it.
I’m not so sure we will go back to the pre-existing condition issue. I think enough people feel strongly about it that it will go by the wayside. And we will have healthcare instead of health insurance. But of course that means costs are going to go up. I’m in that category now. And insurance premiums are at an all time high right now. Sad.
What I wonder is how much money can be saved by removing the huge profit motive for insurance companies and certain medical/pharma companies. I am sure billions of dollars. Of course from that savings we would have to deduct government waste and losses in terms of quality and progress in medical treatments. I think we need a balance of private and public health care, neither single one seems to be doing us all that great.
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biden gonna reverse all of trump's actions
IF he wins...
Beijing Biden Ends President Trump’s Policy of Reducing Medical Costs on Insulin and EpiPens to Please Big Pharma
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/beijing-biden-ends-president-trumps-policy-reducing-medical-costs-insulin-epipens-please-corporatists/
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Beijing Biden Ends President Trump’s Policy of Reducing Medical Costs on Insulin and EpiPens to Please Big Pharma
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/beijing-biden-ends-president-trumps-policy-reducing-medical-costs-insulin-epipens-please-corporatists/
So Big Pharma goes back to ripping off the American Public? Thanks President Biden! Us retirees on fixed income really appreciated being screwed.
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So Big Pharma goes back to ripping off the American Public? Thanks President Biden! Us retirees on fixed income really appreciated being screwed.
IIRC, Obungacare was written by big pharma and insurance companies, no way would they shaft themselves out of easy money.
Trump threw a wrench in the gearbox, but they bought the election to get it free.
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IIRC, Obungacare was written by big pharma and insurance companies, no way would they shaft themselves out of easy money.
Trump threw a wrench in the gearbox, but they bought the election to get it free.
It is obvious that the insurance companies had their hands in writing Obamacare. The insurance is some of the worst I have ever had. High copays and out of pocket. Low coverage rates and high premiums. And the premiums are subsidized by the taxpayer if you are lower income. Before Obamacare I used to have terrific insurance that covered everything at 90% or 100% with low copays and out of pocket and premiums I could afford. Not only did Obama and the Democrats lie about everyone having insurance but they lied about it being affordable and having good coverage. What they did is pander to the insurance companies and Big Pharma and Special Interest Groups and diverted the cost of this debacle onto the back of the taxpayers.
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biden gonna reverse all of trump's actions
IF he wins...
you're a real Dr in my book :thumbsup: you should be called OmniDr
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-trump-hhs-rule-lower-insulin-prices (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-trump-hhs-rule-lower-insulin-prices)