2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Oatmeal5150 on July 31, 2012, 09:02:40 PM
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Ok, so I know pistol mags are limited to 10 rounds. I know rifle mags that fit into any kind of pistol are limited to 10 rounds. So what's the scoops on AR and AK mags. I'm under the impression that those aren't technically legal here because for one, there are "pistol variants" of those two platforms available, and two, many websites say they won't ship to HI, CA etc because of high cap mags. But yet I see all kinds of AR and AK stuff for sale in the 2ahawaii classifieds with 30 rounders. So what's the deal? Am I missing something, or is everyone selling illegal magazines here? hahaha
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This is what the Prosecutors Office told Brian.
Any Mag that can fit in a Pistol is limited to 10 rounds. (I have to look up the definition of a pistol in the Hawaii HRS)
AR and Ak's can use mags larger than 10 rounds because they do not fit a pistol by Hawaii's HRS.
They fit an Assault Pistol that is illegal in Hawaii unless you got grandfathered in.
Definition
Reference §HRS 134-1
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.
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Dont jump on me so fast there is more but I have to look it up!
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If you read the letter of the law, any magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds capable of being inserted into a pistol is illegal. Some here argue that, effectively, that means any magazine, period, because someone, somewhere is capable of making a pistol that can accept that magazine.
Others believe that if there is no commercially manufactured pistol variant, or if the pistol variant is banned in Hawaii, then it is ok to possess larger capacity magazines for a rifle. I've heard more than one officer in the firearms division of HPD say that Ar and AK mags of any capacity are fine.
But what an officer says really isn't relevant, nor is the opinion of people on the forum. It's the stance that the state prosecutor's office takes. And, to date, there has been no official opinion issued.
(c) The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
So, are the gun stores selling illegal magazines? If you take the wording of HRS 134 literally, then yes. It is clearly, explicitly illegal. The fact that HPD says "it's ok" doesn't make it so. They are, as a matter of purely internal policy, choosing not enforcing that statute.
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So since there is a Ruger Charger Pistol and another Pistol that uses Ruger Mags they cant be used in a 10/22 no more.
So we brought up. What if we were to modify the Ruger Hi-Cap mags so they wont fit in a Ruger Pistol anymore? Would that be legal?
and they answered as long as it is NOT easily converted back to fit in the pistol.
So we would have to modify the 10/22's to fit modified mags.
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So from what I understand since there is NO legal pistol you can buy that uses AK or AR mags its OK to use 10 or more rounds.
Because they don't fit a pistol.
It is so confusing. But they also told us that since the law went into effect they have not "PROSTITUTED" anyone for for hi-cap mags.
They have thrown out all cases.
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So from what I understand since there is NO legal pistol you can buy that uses AK or AR mags its OK to use 10 or more rounds.
Because they don't fit a pistol.
It is so confusing. But they also told us that since the law went into effect they have not "PROSTITUTED" anyone for for hi-cap mags.
They have thrown out all cases.
Oh gee...I'd hate to be "PROSTITUTED" for having an illegal mag!! :'(
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The word was substituted for KK
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I knew I'd get dragged into this somehow. :crazy:
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Yup. I had a good laugh with a gunbroker dealer from the mainland concerned that I couldn't take delivery of 20 round CETME mags because they could fit in a PTR pistol.
Took a bit of explaining that in HI legal language there was no PTR Pistol. It was an Assault Pistol. Since there was no legal "pistol" the 20 round mag could fit into... it was legal for the rifle.
His response? "Oh, Ok. That makes sense. Well, no, it doesn't make ~any~ sense, really, but I understand what you're saying. I'll ship the mags with the rifle."
The key in the case of the PTR pistol is its weight. Between that an its other "assault" characteristics there is no way one would be legal. I suspect the same is true of AR and AK pistol designs. Thus mags with 10+ capacity are, technically, legal.
Sorta. The way the law is worded could be interpreted a number of ways. At least the State has the good sense not to prosecute standard capacity mags (I refuse to call mags the guns were designed for "high" capacity) if there is no other crime involved.
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We have had *NUMEROUS* 2A attorneys (From SAF, NRA, and HDF) look at our statute for us, and their opinions have been unanimous: By the law - 10 rounds in almost every firearm in existence.
The argument that an assault pistol is not a pistol, fails on so many levels that it isn't even funny. As I say in my classes, that is like saying a white tail deer, is not a deer, because it has a white tail. Before it can be a white tail, it must have been a deer. You logically cannot have the first without the later. Essentially, everyone is selling and using illegal magazines, but no one cares. Many of our laws are created with an essence of ambiguity and 'gray' area. This helps the prosecutors office with selecting what they will and will not prosecute with.
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^^^
Worked OK for me, Chris. The guy sent me the mags. :D
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^^^
Worked OK for me, Chris. The guy sent me the mags. :D
It's very likely not a problem. It's like doing a few MPH over the speed limit: you can get in trouble as it is 'technically wrong', but no one cares and won't bother you.
Lastly, I think you need to ask yourself, were there any AR-15's made with barrels less than 16" during 1959-1962. Food for thought, 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11. And / or, what about assault pistols legally registered prior to the enactment of the law.
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Finally, ask yourself... If a bear takes a crap in the woods and there are no birds in the trees, who gives a shit?
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Finally, ask yourself... If a bear takes a crap in the woods and there are no birds in the trees, who gives a shit?
The mushrooms! All honesty though, people are asking a legit question, and I just want to make sure a proper answer (through what is written) has been given. If they (The state) were to adopt or provide a definition of a rifle, say that being shoulder fired firearm designed to be fired with two hands - this problem would really go away.
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Wow, lot of responses on this one.... I still don't think I've learned any more than before. Hahahahah just kidding, that was all pretty helpful.... I never noticed the part before about "assault pistols" being illegal here. So according to that, all though high cap mags are technically illegal here, you can't own a pistol variant firearm one of those mags would fit it anyway. So technically there should be no reason you can't have one right? I mean I could see if a person owned one of the pre-92 grandfathered ones, then maybe it would be illegal for them to own high cap mags, but if I can't own an assault pistol I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to own a high cap magazine for an AR/AK rifle that just so happened to fit in an illegal pistol that I'll never own. So it looks like it's basically up to the place you are ordering from to decide whether or not they'll sell to Hawaii or not? Seems some places will sell to you and some won't and some need a little persuasion?
Thanks for all the 411 fellas
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Wow, lot of responses on this one.... I still don't think I've learned any more than before. Hahahahah just kidding, that was all pretty helpful.... I never noticed the part before about "assault pistols" being illegal here. So according to that, all though high cap mags are technically illegal here, you can't own a pistol variant firearm one of those mags would fit it anyway. So technically there should be no reason you can't have one right? I mean I could see if a person owned one of the pre-92 grandfathered ones, then maybe it would be illegal for them to own high cap mags, but if I can't own an assault pistol I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to own a high cap magazine for an AR/AK rifle that just so happened to fit in an illegal pistol that I'll never own. So it looks like it's basically up to the place you are ordering from to decide whether or not they'll sell to Hawaii or not? Seems some places will sell to you and some won't and some need a little persuasion?
Thanks for all the 411 fellas
It means they are illegal, but no one really cares. However, right now I believe we are one photograph from the wrong person, sent to the wrong person, from causing a huge problem here in Hawaii if you go and use the 'wrong' magazines. Just something to think about!
No one has ever gotten in trouble for them - yet.
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... I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to own a high cap magazine for an AR/AK rifle ...
It's not about what makes sense. It's about what the law says. The fact that the people in charge of enforcing the law are *currently* choosing to ignore it is a very tenuous thing to bank on. Particularly in the wake of a mass shooting where an extended capacity magazine was used, the liberal government could easily score points with the voting population by deciding to enforce "a perfectly reasonable restriction" that's already on the books.
I have a good friend who keeps all of his greather-than-10-round capacity magazines disassembled. As he says, "There's no law against collecting parts."
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Yeah true... I guess I more just meant that I assume you are likely to not be prosecuted for having them. Pistol mags I can understand the possible severity of having them and potentially getting in trouble for but it doesn't make any sense that I can own one rifle with a high cap mag, and another I can't because it's magazine also fits in a pistol that I can't own. But it doesn't have to make sense, it's the law, they usually don't make any sense. hahaha. So I guess to really make a simplified answer to my own question..... Yes they're illegal, yes everyone has them and sells them, no you probably won't get in trouble if you have one, yes it's up to you if you're willing to take the risk of buying them or not.
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Particularly in the wake of a mass shooting where an extended capacity magazine was used, the liberal government could easily score points with the voting population by deciding to enforce "a perfectly reasonable restriction" that's already on the books.
Yeah I encourage people to use caution and good judgement when venturing out into today's world. I really do believe we are a iphone picture being sent to the news distance from getting screwed or having to lobby a legal defense fund for someone lol.
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Yup. I had a good laugh with a gunbroker dealer from the mainland concerned that I couldn't take delivery of 20 round CETME mags because they could fit in a PTR pistol.
Took a bit of explaining that in HI legal language there was no PTR Pistol. It was an Assault Pistol. Since there was no legal "pistol" the 20 round mag could fit into... it was legal for the rifle.
His response? "Oh, Ok. That makes sense. Well, no, it doesn't make ~any~ sense, really, but I understand what you're saying. I'll ship the mags with the rifle."
The key in the case of the PTR pistol is its weight. Between that an its other "assault" characteristics there is no way one would be legal. I suspect the same is true of AR and AK pistol designs. Thus mags with 10+ capacity are, technically, legal.
Sorta. The way the law is worded could be interpreted a number of ways. At least the State has the good sense not to prosecute standard capacity mags (I refuse to call mags the guns were designed for "high" capacity) if there is no other crime involved.
I think the issue is like Funtimes is saying, in general it's not prosecuted................however I've seen some news blurbs about guys picked up on weapons charges and I want to say that in those cases the prosecutors throw everything they can at them including over capacity magazines.
Problem is there is the initial blurb and the paper never follows up, neither does HRA so that information never gets back to us.
Wow, lot of responses on this one.... I still don't think I've learned any more than before. Hahahahah just kidding, that was all pretty helpful.... I never noticed the part before about "assault pistols" being illegal here. So according to that, all though high cap mags are technically illegal here, you can't own a pistol variant firearm one of those mags would fit it anyway. So technically there should be no reason you can't have one right? I mean I could see if a person owned one of the pre-92 grandfathered ones, then maybe it would be illegal for them to own high cap mags, but if I can't own an assault pistol I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to own a high cap magazine for an AR/AK rifle that just so happened to fit in an illegal pistol that I'll never own. So it looks like it's basically up to the place you are ordering from to decide whether or not they'll sell to Hawaii or not? Seems some places will sell to you and some won't and some need a little persuasion?
Thanks for all the 411 fellas
I don't remember if older mags were grandfathered in as well. In that case potential for a grandfathered "assault pistol" with magazines with greater than 10 capacity may be legal in Hawaii?
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The criminal penalty for possession of a magazine that holds more than ten rounds that will fit a pistol is one year in jail and a $1000 fine ( see sec. 134-8(d) HRS) . This applies to each magazine. So if you have ten 15 or 30 round M-1 carbine mags the prosecutor could ask the judge to stack the jail time to ten years and a $10,000 fine . Unlikely, but that's the potential. It doesn't matter that the pistol for the magazine isn't legal in Hawaii (assault pistol) or that you don't own any pistols. It's the very magazine itself that's prohibited.
If the more than ten round magazine is inserted in a pistol the crime is a C felony, 5 years jail and NO probation. OK you got a Glock with five hi-cap mags. One in the handgun and the other 4 in the case. You are looking at 5+1+1+1+1 or six years in jail. Even if the magazines are empty.
If inserted in a rifle it still only a one year in jail misdemeanor
It isn't confusing. But it does suck and we are stuck with it.
BTW there is no "grandfather clause" on the magazine ban. Go check Chapter 134 HRS and yes AR and AK more than 10 round mags are unlawful in Hawaii. Sadly plain and simple. But fortunately the police and prosecutors have not gone out of their way to bust people. But the prosecutor will add a mag ban charge if you are facing other crimes like attempted murder, terroristic threatening abuse of a family member etc.
Good news? you have the right to a jury trial.(6th amendment Bill of Rights)
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I haven't seen the book thrown at someone for high cap. I haven't gone to far into it, as I believe the law reads exactly how I think it does, but maybe I will take a glance to see if there was any appeal related stuff on casemaker in regards to magazine violations.
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You are looking at 5+1+1+1+1 or six years in jail.
A little shaky on your math there :shaka:
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^^ Hah!!!
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Oops you're right, should be nine years. Sorry blame Honolulu public school. Wot?
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Deleted by poster.
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So since there is a Ruger Charger Pistol and another Pistol that uses Ruger Mags they cant be used in a 10/22 no more.
So we brought up. What if we were to modify the Ruger Hi-Cap mags so they wont fit in a Ruger Pistol anymore? Would that be legal?
and they answered as long as it is NOT easily converted back to fit in the pistol.
So we would have to modify the 10/22's to fit modified mags.
Technically the charger is illegal in HI so you're good…… ;)
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Technically the charger is illegal in HI so you're good…… ;)
On a more technical note, swap out the standard barrel with the titanium and you have a legal firearm ;).
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On a slightly less technical note is says manufacturers weight…… :(
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On a slightly less technical note is says manufacturers weight…… :(
You can send it to licensed manufacturer, some places can also add the thing for you before it ships! =D
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Can someone write an explanation I can give to online vendors when they try to deny me buying 30 rnd mags for my AR? Just something simple I can copy and paste
thanks
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Can someone write an explanation I can give to online vendors when they try to deny me buying 30 rnd mags for my AR? Just something simple I can copy and paste
thanks
And that note would say something like: "Can you please ship me those 30 round magazines that your legal department has determined are illegal in Hawaii because currently HPD isn't enforcing that law."
I don't think that would work for you....
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Clarification: Magnum Research makes a Pistol that is legally sold in Hawaii
Magnum Research PiCuda MLP-1722
Thats why we cant use Ruger 10/22 Hi Cap Mags no more....
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Can someone write an explanation I can give to online vendors when they try to deny me buying 30 rnd mags for my AR? Just something simple I can copy and paste
thanks
You could skip the middle guy, save on shipping, an go to OGC Tactical. Best prices and selection Ive found on the island.
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You could skip the middle guy, save on shipping, an go to OGC Tactical. Best prices and selection Ive found on the island.
*** TADA*** :worship:
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You could skip the middle guy, save on shipping, an go to OGC Tactical. Best prices and selection Ive found on the island.
OGC sells for cheaper than what the Marine Corps Exchange charged in North Carolina.
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I dropping KK from the list....
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Oops you're right, should be nine years. Sorry blame Honolulu public school. Wot?
Eh turn the keyboard right side up. :D
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Bought one two many Troy mags, is it ok to sell one of them out of state as long as its not to a ban state?
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Bought one two many Troy mags, is it ok to sell one of them out of state as long as its not to a ban state?
of course.
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You sure? I see like the sale/ transefer of mags that exceed 10 rounds blah blah...blah
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You sure? I see like the sale/ transefer of mags that exceed 10 rounds blah blah...blah
Take them apart if you are questioning it; there is nothing wrong with selling magazine parts.
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O0 ........ok
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OK so here is the deal! A pistol is defined by the HRS as being under 12 inches in length and being under 50 oz. in weight. And the mag inserts in to the grip. An assault pistol is defined as over 12 inches, over 50 oz. and mag in front of the grip. There is no way any AR or AK mag could fit in to a grip.!!! So there are no AR or Ak pistols as defined by the HRS. If there was one, you could buy it….A pistol and an assault pistol are two different categories of weapon. One is legal and one is not. It is black and white. On the other hand the federal definition of a pistol is “any gun with a barrel shorter than 16 inches” but this is not a federal law we are talking about, it’s a state law. So we have to use the States definition! Also to date, every ar or ak hicap mag charge has been thrown out by the prosecutors. If that’s not case presidents, I don’t know what is.
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Glad these laws that are being considered don't affect my M1!
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Glad these laws that are being considered don't affect my M1!
Could be...may have to register your M1 if you have an unregistered one and your 15 and 30rd mags may end up being banned. The M1 is on her hit list too and that makes me sick, since I'm deep into M1s myself. I have some 5rd mags but it makes me sick to think it could ever come to that. Or maybe you are talking purely M1 Garand and strippers...not modified regarding mags.
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Could be...may have to register your M1 if you have an unregistered one and your 15 and 30rd mags may end up being banned. The M1 is on her hit list too and that makes me sick, since I'm deep into M1s myself. I have some 5rd mags but it makes me sick to think it could ever come to that. Or maybe you are talking purely M1 Garand and strippers...not modified regarding mags.
wait, for real? the M1 is on the list? i know i saw the M1 carbine, but the Garand? makes no sense.
shit, i guess the M1A is going to be an "assault weapon". too bad, if they do pass a ban, i'll never own one. too poor to get one now.
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wait, for real? the M1 is on the list? i know i saw the M1 carbine, but the Garand? makes no sense.
shit, i guess the M1A is going to be an "assault weapon". too bad, if they do pass a ban, i'll never own one. too poor to get one now.
That's what I was referring to (sorry)...M1 Carbine, not Garand but even the Garand can be modified to accept mags. But he would need to register if it came to that, providing it is unregistered.
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That's what I was referring to...M1 Carbine, not Garand but even the Garand can accept modified mags. But he would need to register if it came to that.
M1 doesn't use mags...uses 8 rnd clips
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M1 doesn't use mags...uses 8 rnd clips
M1 Garand can if reworked to use mags but your's is normal config (unmodified). M1 carbine is what I was referring too in general. Sorry for any confusion.