2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: glockfanboy808 on March 10, 2021, 07:02:23 PM
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Looking to buy my first ar 15 , I want something dependable, reliable , and will just work without to many issues ? Any recommendations? I heard good things about the colt
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I heard good things about the colt
Overpriced, but your money. The S&W stuff is supposed to be decent for the money.
Being me, I would just build one. Amazingly simple really, and you learn everything you need to know while ending up with a custom rifle.. The upper is where the special tools come in, and complete uppers can be bought in whatever flavor of barrel length and such you prefer. The lower receiver is all you need to put up with HPD about. All the innards are easy to do. The buttstock is up to you, truly are a preference thing.
A lot of info here on Hawaii 2A from guys that have built and modified the things for years.
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BCM...very reliable. If you check their site religiously every morning you can get a complete upper. I got their new MK2 ELW cold hammer forged barrel. My friend also bought one recently. Seems like only limited production on barrels...sells out fast. Very light and accurate. I matched mine with a BCM lower but put an aftermarket trigger.
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Looking to buy my first ar 15 ,
I want something dependable, reliable , and will just work without to many issues ?
Any recommendations?
I heard good things about the colt
If it's your first, I'd buy a factory-built rifle. It helps to start out with something that not only has a single-source warranty to deal with if needed, but you can be more assured your safety isn't at risk from your or someone else's mistake doing a "personal" build. Also, you can avoid the cost of tools needed for a build, unless you already have them or can borrow them.
I bought a Colt 6940 as my first AR-15. Mainly I decided on it for the name. Not only is Colt a reputable manufacturer, but they were the only manufacturer of M14s for the military for a long time. As far as AR-15s go, Colt still owns the patents from Armalite, so they are the only company who can make an "official" AR-15. S&W makes an M&P15, Noveske makes an N4 -- most variants use "M4" and "AR-15" variations as model names.
Cops around the country who are allowed to carry personal rifles on patrol were often restricted by their departments to using Colt rifles. Just another indication that Colt was arguably the most trusted brand at the time I bought mine.
Since then, other makers have been able to prove their reliability and accuracy. If I were doing it over, I would pick a brand that's in the top 3 or 4 that has a model in my price range. Hard to imagine you'd be disappointed in a S&W, Daniel Defense, BCM, Bushmaster, Ruger, Sig Sauer, Noveske, LWRC or PSA.
A major reason to buy a complete rifle is the mods and accessories. You can add and change parts as you wish while not interfering in the rifle's reliability. Once you've figured out what you like and don't like about your first rifle, you'll be more prepared to decide what kind of rifle you'd like to build for your second. You'll be more comfortable with how the rifle functions, what all the parts do, and how many add-ons you think you need.
If I had to bug out, my Colt is still my AR of choice. It's a bit heavy relative to other models, but that gives me confidence it'll last a very long time.
You should decide how much is in your budget, then make a list of candidate brands/models in your price range. Include prices of accessories like optics, weapons lights, slings, etc. Narrow the list to a few and ask for opinions on just those 2-3. It'll be much easier to decide. That list might also be constrained by availability, so prepare to be flexible in what brands/models you shuffle to the top.
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If you can afford it a complete BCM ELW recce rifle.
If you can’t find or afford the complete rifle then I would get a bcm ELW upper (with bcg if able). And then any decent mil spec complete lower.
If you still can’t afford that buy one of the Palmetto state armory uppers or build kits.
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Overpriced, but your money. The S&W stuff is supposed to be decent for the money.
Being me, I would just build one. Amazingly simple really, and you learn everything you need to know while ending up with a custom rifle.. The upper is where the special tools come in, and complete uppers can be bought in whatever flavor of barrel length and such you prefer. The lower receiver is all you need to put up with HPD about. All the innards are easy to do. The buttstock is up to you, truly are a preference thing.
A lot of info here on Hawaii 2A from guys that have built and modified the things for years.
Funny you mention this. I happen to have a S&W Sport Model for sale. It is unfired. I have it on consignment at a LGS out here. They are asking around $600 for it. Has not sold yet. I also have a revolver on consignment with them as well.
I agree with you about building one. That is the route I went and I built 3 of them.
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Colt used to be the high end ar-15 back in the 80s and 90s when there weren't many manufacturers. Now they are overpriced for getting name recognition. What is your purpose for the rifle?
If you are new to rifles and don't know what you'll do with it, get a cheaper general purpose 16" one now around $600 to $900...rock river, PSA, S&W, etc then you'll be better experienced to know what to get in the future.
What you get should be based on your budget, and the rifle and accessories should be the least expensive part. Ammo and training should take up most of the budget.
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Buy a complete AR from a trusted manufacturer. You can always upgrade later
Also buy a few lowers to build later. Since you are going hpd anyways might as well make it worth your time. Appts are few and far between
I bought a complete one first, then built a few more shortly after that. It is very easy
Choose wisely. Good luck :shaka:
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Jp enterprise makes great ar's
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Colt currently outsources much of its manufacturing to sub-contractors so some have begun to question whether you’re really getting a Colt. If you’re stuck on getting a Colt,I’d suggest doing a ton of digging and try to find something from Diemaco (Colt Canada). It’ll probably be pretty pricey given current market conditions.
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Looking to buy my first ar 15 , I want something dependable, reliable , and will just work without to many issues ? Any recommendations? I heard good things about the colt
What are your intended uses/purpose for the AR? That will greatly help tailor recommendations, in many ways.
That was a question that was often asked of me when I was considering the various options for my first AR. It's ok not to know exactly what you envision, as that too will evolve. For me, I primarily just wanted an AR of my own as I enjoyed shooting them. I had envisioned defensive and training, but was really open to a lot.
For a first rifle, I would highly recommend buying complete upper and lower. Less chances of issues with reliability. If you're going to be a weekend plinker, then I would say go with whatevers, but you mentioned dependable and reliable. Assuming you are truly a glock fan, I'm assuming your interests and preferences in ARs are similar, which is a gun that has a reputation for performing.
Next recommendation is to buy the gun, keeping it pretty basic at first, and allocate more budget to ammo and shooting it lots. You'll get a better feel for what you want.
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Kawika in the classifieds is selling a colt upper.
Just need to buy a ch and bcg.. fairly easier to find than a few months ago.
And buy a complete lower from any store on the island.
No one really asked what his budget was. And with overpriced shit nowadays he may or may not be able to get what he really wants.
Then you have the buy once, cry once mentality:
Daniel defense
Colt
Lwrc
Pof
Bcm
Noveske... edited
Knights
Rra (fairly on the cheaper side but reliable. I had one but sold it for lwrc)
Edit... sounds like he wants a jack of all trades ar15. Name brand ar15s are expensive due to their qc . I think theres only 3 or maybe 4 now usa makers of receivers?
If glockfanboy wants to build, i can name bout 15 users on here that know their shit. (Im sure theres more.. but idk atm)
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Kawika in the classifieds is selling a colt upper.
Just need to buy a ch and bcg.. fairly easier to find than a few months ago.
And buy a complete lower from any store on the island.
No one really asked what his budget was. And with overpriced shit nowadays he may or may not be able to get what he really wants.
Then you have the buy once, cry once mentality:
Daniel defense
Colt
Lwrc
Pof
Bcm
Knights
Rra (fairly on the cheaper side but reliable. I had one but sold it for lwrc)
I've shot quite a few of those and they are VERY nice. I am very much one who appreciated quality and typically no issues spending more for that quality. But dayum those suckers are pricey. . .
That said, even DDs have gotten pretty expensive these days. :(
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I got my first AR in 2016. It was a S&W M&P15 for $550.
As a first AR, it would be good to buy 1 that is already assembled. Then later you change parts out that fit your needs. My rifle's purpose is for self defense. So I've replaced like 60% of the original parts to fit my needs after I took some skill builder classes and the cost of the replacement parts total more than the rifle.. These classes have a max distance of 40 yards and allow rapid firing. Many times the targets are about 5-20 yards away. But with this rifle, I can easily place rounds on an index card with my zero power red dot sight at the distances required.
So like DCK mentioned, depends what you're planning on using the AR for. IDK what my rifle can do at 300yrds because I have no where to shoot it at that distance, nor do I have the optic to make it most accurate. But at 100yards, I can get hits on a 6 inch steal consistently with my red dot.
And like Flapp mentioned, buying first AR off the shelf built is a good idea, along with the other stuff he said. Building your first AR can be overwhelming with all the parts you need because you can't really make heads from tails. But after getting my first AR, knowing what I need to assemble the next one is no problem. Example: In 2016, I had no idea what a buffer tube spring is and what it does. Now I do.
But in the end, it's the Indian, not the arrow. So for the skill builders I mentioned above, I've taken classes with guys who have the Cadillac of rifles and they can't hit shit. But this can be learned and I've seen many of these guys improve over the year big time. Some didn't. So my $500 rifle out performed a $1800 rifle that has a $700 ACOG optic on it. My red dot cost $140.
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Drck... you lucky, i never got a chance to shoot a knights. Lwrc is prob the most expensive off the shelf ar15 i shot. I love it. As for DD....Yea i also noticed there ads or sales. Seems like their rifles increased in price by about 200-400 since the pandemic
Change my oil... you right. Its the shooter not necessarily the tool at hand. Give pat rogers or aaron cowan a psa bulders kit from 2015 and they will out shoot my ass with my bcm. :rofl: :worship:
Spikes and fn are good too. The chf spikes upper i got is from 2013-2015. And i believe back then fn made barrels for spikes. Dunno bout now. But it was a selling point for me. And only costed 480ish for a complete upper back then.
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Glockfanboy...
A colt nowadays i think run 1200-1400.. i think i seen online for 1200 for a 6920 which can be shipped here.
If you know what kind of parts you want in an ar15... (specialty bcg, a5 buffer, trigger, ambi shit, grips, stocks, type of forend, etc.) Try price it out on your own. Dont forget to include shipping costs. And source it from reputable sites. Amazon and ebay got some shady fuckers sometimes.
I only say that cause if you buy a complete 6920 for example. And decide to change the rail, trigger, buffer sys, sights, grips, etc etc. You could save more money by building it from the get go. Tbh i learned how to build ar15s from youtube :rofl: and googling correct torque specs. And if i cant find a trustworthy site, i email the manufacturer and most are willing to give info. Except noveske :shake:
All seems to work absolutely fine. Built bout 7 to 9 uppers, 6 or so lowers and countless times taken shit off to put new shit on.
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And source it from reputable sites. Amazon and ebay got some shady fuckers sometimes.
I usually bought stuff from Midway USA and Brownells, along with a few direct from manufacturers.
Couple really good books out there on the building and modding of the AR family.
Walt Kuleck and Clint McKee wrote the bible on building.
https://www.amazon.com/AR-15-Complete-Assembly-Guide-Kuleck/dp/1888722126 (https://www.amazon.com/AR-15-Complete-Assembly-Guide-Kuleck/dp/1888722126)
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I usually bought stuff from Midway USA and Brownells, along with a few direct from manufacturers.
Couple really good books out there on the building and modding of the AR family.
Walt Kuleck and Clint McKee wrote the bible on building.
https://www.amazon.com/AR-15-Complete-Assembly-Guide-Kuleck/dp/1888722126
I second this sir. Brownells and midway were/ sometimes still ... my go to.
Lately i just been buyin pistol parts tho. Just spare parts and midway and brownells were out of stock.
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Regarding parts, I was thinking about starting a "eh you get extra" thread. Sort of like what was started on some groups/forums at the start of COVID.
Like many who are into ARs, I have a BoS (box or bin of shit) with parts. Take offs, parts that I bought and either used very little or maybe not even used once. Buffer tubes, buffers, springs, buttstocks, charging handles, etc. Joke around with friends that we could build guns with these "extra" parts. Stuff I've tried to give away to friends that I shoot with, but most have their own BoS.
Anyways, if folks need things, I bet there are folks here that can help. I've been on the receiving end of a few members here paying it forward and helping me out, so time to pay it forward back to the group.
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Drck... you lucky, i never got a chance to shoot a knights. Lwrc is prob the most expensive off the shelf ar15 i shot. I love it. As for DD....Yea i also noticed there ads or sales. Seems like their rifles increased in price by about 200-400 since the pandemic
SNIP
Not just KAC guns, SBRs with Surefire and sometimes beta-testing suppressors.
But sadly, this was when I was more active in traveling for training/classes. I had gotten to be decently close friends with a couple of the instructors and others in the class who had such guns and they graciously let me test drive. Awesome stuff. :love:
In a way, somewhat "glad" that some of those items are not legal in HI. I'd be more broke than I am. . . :(
My first AR was a DD. I sold it to a friend. It was on the "upper-mid" range back then, but they definitely creeped up there in pricing.
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In a way, somewhat "glad" that some of those items are not legal in HI. I'd be more broke than I am. . . :(
THIS... haha i agree. I would sbr and can everything. But seriously, Atleast sbr everything. I dont think id just be broke, id be in debt to banks and have horrible credit lol.
I wish i could travel as much as id like. The only fun gun i got to shoot was in vegas and it was a mp5a4. Or whatever the fixed buttstock was. Never had the integral supressed one or i wouldve shot that. I was doin 3-5 burst fire shots on the first 2 mags, then the rso said fuck it, do a 30 round burst lol. It was fun.
My first ar15 was RRA 6.8 spc. Prob put 1300-1800 rounds through it. And mind you, it was $1.30ish per round back then. Only remington and hornady was available at ogc, kaneohegs, sechawaii and young guns. Then it was a 6920, lwrc, several built rifles, but now i settled on spikes and bcm.
To be fair, i think i found building ar15s and sourcing all its components more fun and rewarding. Something to think about glockfanboy. :thumbsup:
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BCM seems to take QC much more seriously than Colt has for a while. Also you get every penny you paid when buying BCM. Uppers and lowers do pop on gundeals every few weeks but you need to be quick on the draw. BCM also does email alert back in stock on items via their website.
If you have never ordered an upper directly from BCM previously they do require you to scan and send an ID matching your CC in on your first purchase before shipping because they got fucked over by credit card fraudsters too many times.
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I wish i could travel as much as id like. The only fun gun i got to shoot was in vegas and it was a mp5a4. Or whatever the fixed buttstock was. Never had the integral supressed one or i wouldve shot that. I was doin 3-5 burst fire shots on the first 2 mags, then the rso said fuck it, do a 30 round burst lol. It was fun.
The fixed buttstock can be added to any model of MP5. The MP5SD is the one with the built in suppressor. The MP5K is the one the T-1000 used in Terminator 2 and has a pistol foregrip.
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BCM seems to take QC much more seriously than Colt has for a while. Also you get every penny you paid when buying BCM. Uppers and lowers do pop on gundeals every few weeks but you need to be quick on the draw. BCM also does email alert back in stock on items via their website.
If you have never ordered an upper directly from BCM previously they do require you to scan and send an ID matching your CC in on your first purchase before shipping because they got fucked over by credit card fraudsters too many times.
I agree bcm qc is top notch. Once in a while they do let 1 or 2 slip tho, but they warranty it no questions asked or so ive read. This was when i was researching last year and got my mk2 elw.
As for colt, i had a 6920 and the 9mm ar (forgot model number 6980???) back around 2008-2015. They worked flawlessly. But like bota said, they pretty much source everything now, even the gas block from 3rd parties. So i can see why most people are hesitant of them now. Didnt cz buy colt?
Wow thats fucked. Thank god ive been ordering parts from them for atleast 5 years and got my upper last year (right before shutdowns were happening) without sending a pic of my DL or whatever they require now.
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Looking to buy my first ar 15 , I want something dependable, reliable , and will just work without to many issues ? Any recommendations? I heard good things about the colt
What is your price range and intended use?
That way we can eliminate some manufacturers and narrow it down a bit
I've had no problems using Aero and Spikes lowers
I've had no problems with Aero uppers, or PSA, or a smaller company in Texas. These are not the best of the best but they work.
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BCM seems to take QC much more seriously than Colt has for a while. Also you get every penny you paid when buying BCM. Uppers and lowers do pop on gundeals every few weeks but you need to be quick on the draw. BCM also does email alert back in stock on items via their website.
If you have never ordered an upper directly from BCM previously they do require you to scan and send an ID matching your CC in on your first purchase before shipping because they got fucked over by credit card fraudsters too many times.
I've had mixed experiences with BCM's QC. In one instance, the owner (Paul Buffoni) called me. That was a LONG time ago though. Overall, they are great to deal with, but I think they are gradually taking the DD route as they get busier and become more popular.
I am a huge fan of BCM products. I have a number of their uppers, handguards, etc. Their pricing was decent for a while, but they've gone way up over the years too. Warranted? I think for the most part yes, but still.
There are also some online vendors that are "close" to BCM and can typically get some products in pretty quickly. At least one has discount for NRA Instructors, which can save a lot of $$$.
I agree bcm qc is top notch. Once in a while they do let 1 or 2 slip tho, but they warranty it no questions asked or so ive read. This was when i was researching last year and got my mk2 elw.
As for colt, i had a 6920 and the 9mm ar (forgot model number 6980???) back around 2008-2015. They worked flawlessly. But like bota said, they pretty much source everything now, even the gas block from 3rd parties. So i can see why most people are hesitant of them now. Didnt cz buy colt?
Wow thats fucked. Thank god ive been ordering parts from them for atleast 5 years and got my upper last year (right before shutdowns were happening) without sending a pic of my DL or whatever they require now.
I have been on the receiving end of a couple of slips in BCM and Colt uppers. It happens. But both were resolved very quickly. The one with Colt, I couldn't get the upper to zero windage. "Yeah right, it's not the upper" is what I expected from Colt. Before contacting them, I had a couple of local experts test and same thing. Confirmed my issue. Sent back to Colt with an explanation. About a couple of weeks later, I received a new barrel. The barrel extension was out of spec. That was pretty quick. I had replaced the barrel on my own since I didn't expect Colt to help, but then I had an "extra" barrel. Which of course "grew" into a new upper. :facepalm: :rofl:
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I think as others mentioned, budget and use definitely play a factor here. That being said, for me personally, I use BCM as the standard and go from there. Some companies I was looking through with my latest build were BCM, Daniel Defense, LWRC, Sons of Liberty Gun Works, Scionic, Rainier Arms, Geissele, ADM, Triarc, Larue, Noveske, Radian, LMT, and Knights Armament Co. Many put Knights Armament and LMT in the top tier and Radian is in the talks as well.
That being said, for most, I think any one of those would be fine. I don’t think my skillset would ever be high enough to appreciate the difference between a KAC and BCM...
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I think as others mentioned, budget and use definitely play a factor here. That being said, for me personally, I use BCM as the standard and go from there. Some companies I was looking through with my latest build were BCM, Daniel Defense, LWRC, Sons of Liberty Gun Works, Scionic, Rainier Arms, Geissele, ADM, Triarc, Larue, Noveske, Radian, LMT, and Knights Armament Co. Many put Knights Armament and LMT in the top tier and Radian is in the talks as well.
That being said, for most, I think any one of those would be fine. I don’t think my skillset would ever be high enough to appreciate the difference between a KAC and BCM...
That's quite a list that you considered sourcing things from. Maybe half (or less) was available when I was first looking at ARs, which I think was a good thing otherwise I'd be tempted to try more options. Out of those, I've owned BCM, DD, and LMT, plus Colt. All excellent quality. The I had a rifle length LMT MRP and that thing was pretty pricey. Definitely a quality gun, but I decided to go with reducing weight overall, and that LMT was not light. I have some Geissele components now too as well.
Can I notice a difference in performance? With a quality lower budget setup, probably not. I have observed more issues/failures in components in some of the lower budget components. That said, I have also seen failures in components from BCM, LMT, Colt, etc.
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That's quite a list that you considered sourcing things from. Maybe half (or less) was available when I was first looking at ARs, which I think was a good thing otherwise I'd be tempted to try more options. Out of those, I've owned BCM, DD, and LMT, plus Colt. All excellent quality. The I had a rifle length LMT MRP and that thing was pretty pricey. Definitely a quality gun, but I decided to go with reducing weight overall, and that LMT was not light. I have some Geissele components now too as well.
Can I notice a difference in performance? With a quality lower budget setup, probably not. I have observed more issues/failures in components in some of the lower budget components. That said, I have also seen failures in components from BCM, LMT, Colt, etc.
I feel ya. Research took months and I looked into nearly every individual part. A lot of analysis paralysis and ended up building it instead. Had to figure out what I wanted to accomplish and went from there.
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For me, it was a toss-up between 2 Colt models (6920 and 6940) and whatever Bushmaster model OGC had on the wall next to them. They had 2 6940 models: one gas impingement, and one piston driven.
The furniture is a big factor for most people. It's one reason I went with the floated quad-rail hand guard on the 6940 vs. the standard carbine AR15/M4/M16 A2 style hand guard w/A2 sight & gas block combo. The barrel I picked was already free-floated, which by most accounts increases accuracy. The A2 hand guard didn't offer rails, so it would have been another $100-$200 to get a suitable quad-rail hand guard, which was what I wanted.
My favorite hand guard is the VTac Alpha, which has a picatinny rail on top, and small rail pieces you can install in any of the vent slots. The hand guard allows for a free-floated barrel, is light, and is super easy to install.
Colt actually did something relatively recently that I think was a good move. They started offering the 6920 OEM models. They both come with no furniture, allowing you to pick your preferred butt stock, hand guard and trigger guard. OEM comes with the fixed A2 front sight/gas block, and the OEM2 has a low profile gas block to allow free floating the barrel.
There are a few designs for AR furniture to consider. Those I mentioned are just a couple. You can pick from MLOK hand guards for mounting accessories, minimalist butt stocks, pistol grips with storage compartments, vertical fore grips, angled fore grips, fixed front sights, folding sight sets, adjustable gas blocks, various finishes for the Bolt Carrier Group, and, of course, there are a large selection of "novelty" features like receiver engravings of logos/pictures for Zombies, Pirates, Infidels, etc, etc.
The point is, there are lots of ways to customize an AR. Buying a factory gun requires a little research into what the factory models offer and what you intend to replace after purchase, if anything. Manufacturers sometimes offer variations on the same model with simple furniture differences, like a Magpul version. It'll have the Magpul trigger guard, one of several Magpul stocks, one of a couple Magpul grips, and a Magpul hand guard.
The Colt OEM models offer a lower price for a Colt AR allowing (requiring) you to buy whatever furniture "trips your trigger." If nothing else, that delays starting your BoS with parts you took off and will likely never use.
I'm sure one exists somewhere online, but you might want to make a list of all the styles and designs available for the AR-15 and narrow your preferences using that. For example, if you want a free floated barrel, then that eliminates barrels/uppers with the A2 sight/gas block -- unless you want to remove the sight and replace it with a low profile block. That's just one feature among the many that will need to be considered.
It can be overwhelming if you don't already know which things you want on your new rifle. It's one reason most novices go with a complete rifle for their first. It keeps from buying parts that don't work together, like a barrel with an A2 sight matched up with a free floated hand guard. Or a rifle length hand guard on a carbine length barrel. The list goes on.
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If you're looking for an AR around the Colt price range. I would go with BCM (personally own), Aero Precision, or if you are really lucky, Centurion Arms.
Their value and quality has far surpassed Colt.
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I feel ya. Research took months and I looked into nearly every individual part. A lot of analysis paralysis and ended up building it instead. Had to figure out what I wanted to accomplish and went from there.
Or be like me and try all different kinds of stuff. I would say borderline foolishly. . .
Ltwt vs "std" wt barrels
FSP vs folding sights
EoTech vs Aimpoint
and so on. . .
I am the type that like to try things side by side, so that led to multiple guns in different setups. I still have some in different setups, but have settled on preference for many of those A vs B. It changes every so often, particularly after a carbine class. Same with gear. I have so much stuff and have a BoS for that stuff too. I've tried to give stuff away too and still have lots of crap. Haha
Then there's my AK project. . . that's another story. . .
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(https://i.redd.it/77thfjwcoa641.png)
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(https://i.redd.it/77thfjwcoa641.png)
This made for a good laugh, but true.
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Snip
Guess my PSA is junk :(
:rofl:
That stuff brings back bad memories of the arguments back in the day about the “list” and tiers on other forums. Some people were getting banned because of the “debates” that ensued.
I can say I own or owned at one time something from every tier. Well, except destitute ;D
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I once had a bushy that ran for years with NO issues to the point I wore out the barrel and had to replace it after an uncountable amount of rounds. :thumbsup:
Mind you I did do some changes like fore grip, trigger, BCG and aimpoint but the most important piece of hardware for accuracy and durability is behind the trigger.
You can have the top end Gucci gun mounted with the most expensive optic and still miss. :crazy:
JMHO
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The BCG and barrel are really all that may have "tiers", the rest is or should be made to mil-spec. Forgings are all done in a handful of places, and used by everybody.
Unless a less expensive manufacturer is using rejected parts, the basic rifles will only vary by fitment, where it might apply.
That is where learning to build your own comes in.
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I once had a bushy that ran for years with NO issues to the point I wore out the barrel and had to replace it after an uncountable amount of rounds. :thumbsup:
Mind you I did do some changes like fore grip, trigger, BCG and aimpoint but the most important piece of hardware for accuracy and durability is behind the trigger.
You can have the top end Gucci gun mounted with the most expensive optic and still miss. :crazy:
JMHO
Was your bushy the one with issues with the "dribbles"? ??? :rofl:
But yeah, I'll take a reliable base quality gun over one that's all tricked out and not reliable.
The BCG and barrel are really all that may have "tiers", the rest is or should be made to mil-spec. Forgings are all done in a handful of places, and used by everybody.
Unless a less expensive manufacturer is using rejected parts, the basic rifles will only vary by fitment, where it might apply.
That is where learning to build your own comes in.
The tier stuff, from what I recall, was some dumbassery from Arfcom that got out of control. That guy with the yellow visor injected a lot of that stuff. Quality in parts is one thing, but also attention to the small details. Proper staking, or even staking at all, is one that I've seen short cuts taken because some feel "ahh, no need".
While I would say that assembly of ARs aren't that difficult, assembly of uppers does take more experience for reliability. I've seen so many franken guns fail in classes. Stuff like gas block just a little off. Personally, I have very little desire to tinker with guns. Yeah, I'll swap stuff out here and there, but mostly for a reason. I say mostly because yeah, I have gone the Gucci Glock route. Not for ARs. I have a couple of shooting buddies that love to tinker. Always changing this spring set, that trigger, etc. So when they start experiencing malfunctions, it's near impossible to trouble shoot.
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Well, looks like I have guns that fall in the top 4 tiers:
1. Noveske
2. Colt
3. PSA (both upper and lower are "blemished", but I can't find the blemishes to save my life!
4. Spike's Tactical (Built one with my daughter which she took to Seattle -- still have an upper & lower receiver set for another build)
I also have a PWS, but don't see it in the list. I assume it would be at least somewhere around the top 2 tiers.
Gives me a wide range of "quality" for comparison, if nothing else. :thumbsup:
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Get a good barrel and float it. Then get a good trigger.
If you have OCD or want to develop OCD - get a borescope
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The tier stuff, from what I recall, was some dumbassery from Arfcom that got out of control. That guy with the yellow visor injected a lot of that stuff.
Never got into reading anything on that arfcom site. Seemed like a lot of adolescents posturing and trying for bragging rights. Those that over-spend do spend a lot of time trying to justify it.
Everything studied and properly fitted will cost more due to the time involved. The parts are mostly the same.
Only issue I have ever had was a barrel that had a bit of a burr left in the gas port. Took all of 15 minutes to figure out why it would not lock back. Fix was a quick pass of a drill bit to knock the burr loose. I do spend the time to get the port and block properly aligned, with a fine tap left or right to get the sights agreeing on zero windage. I make sure the gas tube is aligned so I feel no drag from the key as it slips over the tube end. Takes time and may not matter to anyone but me.
Top tier, if it means anything, may be just a careful assembly of the same parts that are thrown together by others.
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Get a good barrel and float it. Then get a good trigger.
If you have OCD or want to develop OCD - get a borescope
Barrels float? How come so many are lost in boating accidents then? ???
:rofl:
Haha, couldn't resist.
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1) Never got into reading anything on that arfcom site. Seemed like a lot of adolescents posturing and trying for bragging rights. Those that over-spend do spend a lot of time trying to justify it.
2) Everything studied and properly fitted will cost more due to the time involved. The parts are mostly the same.
3) Only issue I have ever had was a barrel that had a bit of a burr left in the gas port. Took all of 15 minutes to figure out why it would not lock back. Fix was a quick pass of a drill bit to knock the burr loose. I do spend the time to get the port and block properly aligned, with a fine tap left or right to get the sights agreeing on zero windage. I make sure the gas tube is aligned so I feel no drag from the key as it slips over the tube end. Takes time and may not matter to anyone but me.
4) Top tier, if it means anything, may be just a careful assembly of the same parts that are thrown together by others.
1) You're lucky then. When I was first getting into ARs, I read everything and anything. That's where I picked up the "hearing the signal through the noise" thing. But I agree that a lot of that tier stuff was attempts to justify that they bought, liked, etc. Both ways as well. People defending their choice to spend more and those trying to say that their budget stuff was "just as good". To me, get what you want, shoot it and learn. Don't need to justify for make excuses. To me, much of that dumbassery was from folks who never really shoot. No experience, but are experts because of interwebs. Can see much of that here.
2) Yup. Many think building one's own will save $$$. While I think it can, to me, that's generally not the case.
3) You probably have quite a lot of experience to be able to track down where issues likely came from. For beginners, who may not even know how to field strip the gun, that can be a lot and lead to a lot of frustration. Frustration that I personally would have been really turned off when I was starting out.
4) QA is a big part of that. And I'm not talking about blems or fit & finish QA. That said, there are companies that produce parts to excellent tolerance (like Geissele and others) and some that I've noticed where their QA on tolerance is prob performed by monkeys. . .
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forgot to add - avoid using Paypal
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Barrels float? How come so many are lost in boating accidents then? ???
:rofl:
Haha, couldn't resist.
They all float down here! :shake: :geekdanc:
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No experience, but are experts because of interwebs.
Yep, those ignorant millennials and their iFag Google searches are the equal of those with years of practical knowledge.,
Just ask them.
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Yep, those ignorant millennials and their iFag Google searches are the equal of those with years of practical knowledge.,
Just ask them.
Wonder which are worse. Them types, or Cross Fit folks? :rofl:
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As for saving money doing a home build, the only way I see that happening is finding the parts you want/need on sale during special promos and avoiding the inevitable swapping of parts on a factory gun.
Each handguard, pistol grip, gas block, BCG, charging handle, butt stock and safety switch you swap out represents more money invested in that "cheaper" factory-built rifle. If you are satisfied with the "as delivered" features and parts, then the factory rifle would normally be less expensive had you built one of equal quality parts.
The Spike's Zombie rifle my daughter and I built ran about $1,000+, not counting any tools which I already had from my own build. Most expensive part was the barrel. Put a lo-pro adjustable gas block, VTAC Alpha handguard, Magpul storage grip, Magpul AFG, Aimpoint PRO red dot, Magpul BUIS, Magpul ACS stock, and Geissele trigger.
If I were to have purchased a factory rifle then upgraded some of those parts, the cost between that and a home build would be similar.
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(https://i.redd.it/77thfjwcoa641.png)
I've owned only the mid tier and poverty level parts
I only bought one complete AR, a Core15 and it functioned flawlessly, after building a few I ended up selling the Core15. The rest of my AR's are built on Aero and Spike's lowers with complete uppers from Aero and Veriforce Tactical. I like to upgrade bcg, trigger, furniture, CH. Reliability, fitment, and accuracy are great.
I've shot a friends Sig piston AR which is very good, and a POF AR which was also very good. I think my built AR's are comparable to those POF and Sig AR's as far as weight, trigger, and accuracy goes, but that piston system is nice.
Buying a top tier AR is great if it's in your budget. If it's not, you can build a very good one for less.
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all those companies from that "tier" list get their forgings from 2 forging houses. One of them is Alcoa. After getting the forgings they may do the machining themselves or get it done by another machine house. I have an early 1st gen Rock River lower that I bought from that doodoo head Legal Transfers. The mag well was cut thin and is odd looking if you stare at it long enough; but it still functions fine - no problems 19 years later. Mags work and drop free, triggers work (Geiselle and RRAs).
Unless something is grossly out of spec, I'd use all of those brands with the exception of UTG. However, with barrels you get what you pay for. As I said before, if you really want to get picky and develop OCD - get the $50 borescope I posted about on Amazon. Barrels I've used and will continue to buy are Wilson, Shilen, Krieger, Douglas and Criterion. I have a Black Friday deal Del Ton full kit and I don't know what they used to cut the bore with but it is fUgly. :wacko: I won't be buying barrels from them again. :(
My 1 cent.
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all those companies from that "tier" list get their forgings from 2 forging houses. One of them is Alcoa. After getting the forgings they may do the machining themselves or get it done by another machine house. I have an early 1st gen Rock River lower that I bought from that doodoo head Legal Transfers. The mag well was cut thin and is odd looking if you stare at it long enough; but it still functions fine - no problems 19 years later. Mags work and drop free, triggers work (Geiselle and RRAs).
Unless something is grossly out of spec, I'd use all of those brands with the exception of UTG. However, with barrels you get what you pay for. As I said before, if you really want to get picky and develop OCD - get the $50 borescope I posted about on Amazon. Barrels I've used and will continue to buy are Wilson, Shilen, Krieger, Douglas and Criterion. I have a Black Friday deal Del Ton full kit and I don't know what they used to cut the bore with but it is fUgly. :wacko: I won't be buying barrels from them again. :(
My 1 cent.
Have you looked down a bartlin barrel?
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Have you looked down a bartlin barrel?
i doubt it
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I've owned only the mid tier and poverty level parts
I only bought one complete AR, a Core15 and it functioned flawlessly, after building a few I ended up selling the Core15. The rest of my AR's are built on Aero and Spike's lowers with complete uppers from Aero and Veriforce Tactical. I like to upgrade bcg, trigger, furniture, CH. Reliability, fitment, and accuracy are great.
I've shot a friends Sig piston AR which is very good, and a POF AR which was also very good. I think my built AR's are comparable to those POF and Sig AR's as far as weight, trigger, and accuracy goes, but that piston system is nice.
Buying a top tier AR is great if it's in your budget. If it's not, you can build a very good one for less.
Core 15 is the polymer lower, right? I knew a guy who had one that shot it a decent amount and seemed ok. I had seen many reports of them failing near the ring where the buffer tube is secured. I recall there was another polymer lower that was reinforced, but don't recall the name. I would be interested in seeing how it would hold up over say 400-600 rounds in a multi-day class. But that's just my interest.
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all those companies from that "tier" list get their forgings from 2 forging houses. One of them is Alcoa. After getting the forgings they may do the machining themselves or get it done by another machine house. I have an early 1st gen Rock River lower that I bought from that doodoo head Legal Transfers. The mag well was cut thin and is odd looking if you stare at it long enough; but it still functions fine - no problems 19 years later. Mags work and drop free, triggers work (Geiselle and RRAs).
Unless something is grossly out of spec, I'd use all of those brands with the exception of UTG. However, with barrels you get what you pay for. As I said before, if you really want to get picky and develop OCD - get the $50 borescope I posted about on Amazon. Barrels I've used and will continue to buy are Wilson, Shilen, Krieger, Douglas and Criterion. I have a Black Friday deal Del Ton full kit and I don't know what they used to cut the bore with but it is fUgly. :wacko: I won't be buying barrels from them again. :(
My 1 cent.
Did you notice a big difference between performance of the DelTon and the other match grade barrels? I am assuming yes, but curious. I don't shoot rifle matches, so the difference would probably be lost on me.
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Did you notice a big difference between performance of the DelTon and the other match grade barrels? I am assuming yes, but curious. I don't shoot rifle matches, so the difference would probably be lost on me.
I haven't done a real test with all the same variables but I'd say confidence in the Del Ton barrel is not there. With 77s it's a 1 MOA barrel versus a .5 MOA on the other barrels.
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I haven't done a real test with all the same variables but I'd say confidence in the Del Ton barrel is not there. With 77s it's a 1 MOA barrel versus a .5 MOA on the other barrels.
That's quite a bit of difference.
I know my BCM barrel seemed to like the FGMM 69 and 77 gr SMK loads. But the same setup didn't shoot that well with Black Hills 77 gr. Can't rule out "shooter error". Heck, I've shot some pretty good groups with that gun and 193.
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Core 15 is the polymer lower, right? I knew a guy who had one that shot it a decent amount and seemed ok. I had seen many reports of them failing near the ring where the buffer tube is secured. I recall there was another polymer lower that was reinforced, but don't recall the name. I would be interested in seeing how it would hold up over say 400-600 rounds in a multi-day class. But that's just my interest.
I have 2 Frontier polymer lowers that I have shot thousands of rounds out of. One with a 5.56 Noveske upper and the other with a 300 BLK CMMG upper. So far, no cracks or failures of any type. I have a third Frontier lower but I have not shot enough rounds out of it to mention.
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Was your bushy the one with issues with the "dribbles"? ??? :rofl:
Nah, it was the "Flame Thrower". ;)
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Core 15 is the polymer lower, right? I knew a guy who had one that shot it a decent amount and seemed ok. I had seen many reports of them failing near the ring where the buffer tube is secured. I recall there was another polymer lower that was reinforced, but don't recall the name. I would be interested in seeing how it would hold up over say 400-600 rounds in a multi-day class. But that's just my interest.
https://core15rifles.com/core15-scout.html
Not polymer. It's your typical milspec AR. 7075 T6
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https://core15rifles.com/core15-scout.html
Not polymer. It's your typical milspec AR. 7075 T6
Ahh. Frontier was the one I was thinking about. The brand Inspector has.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2015/3/4/polymer-ar-lowers/
From that article, seems like at least one user is an instructor and has been beating up on one for a while. Interesting. Not that I envision buying a lower any time soon.
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I have 2 Frontier polymer lowers that I have shot thousands of rounds out of. One with a 5.56 Noveske upper and the other with a 300 BLK CMMG upper. So far, no cracks or failures of any type. I have a third Frontier lower but I have not shot enough rounds out of it to mention.
Noveske upper on a Frontier lower.
That’s my Man, Inspector.
What Ren said.
Think about barrel, bcg and trigger.
Get an extra bcg and springs or lower parts kit.
Definite differences in accuracy from brand to brand and gun to gun.
Even same brand and model can vary from one gun to the next. Less variation with upper tier manufacturers.
Most will run and shoot fine. Going from the quarter to the dime is where the differences are made in barrel and trigger.
Just get one. Play with it then prepare to get another one.
(If you notice all the Monkeys here couldn’t get just one. Me included.)
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Black rifle disease. I had it bad at one point, and get relapses here and there.
Now I got the bolt action rifle and reloading disease. Just before COVID and ammo situation, I was getting back to shooting and taking classes quite regularly. Maybe average of a few hundred rounds a month. I prob shot less than 100 rounds in the past year. :(
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Noveske upper on a Frontier lower.
That’s my Man, Inspector.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:shaka: :wave: