2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: changemyoil66 on January 27, 2022, 05:25:57 PM
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I enjoy his channel.
Basiaclly for months, he has been talking about auto keycard. Its an etch on a metal business card sized metal. So a drawing that the ATF ruled is a machine gun recently and arrested the maker.
CRS created a GFM for him. The idea is if a drawing is treated as a machine gun, whats next. Will a drawing of an auto sear be treated the same?
Now they arrested CRS for conspiracy. Why, because his channel was sponsored by auto keycard while it was a legal object in the past. And that he raised money for the makers defense fund.
The maker of auto was and is still in jail. They arrested his family and ceased all their assets. So he had no $ for a good legal team. This is where CRS helped.
CRS has mentioned that he is sure the ATF will come after him one day. So he has plan A, B, and C. Which is why John Crump is using his channel to spread the word.
His vids are interesting, but educational. He looks like a fool, but knows his stuff.
Most recently he has been outspoken about FRS triggers and WOT triggers. And if u bought 1, the ATF will be kocking on your door since they have the makers mailing list. And peoples YT channels of them shooting with them
He often speaks about how even if u beat the BS charges, u are in jail, will lose ur job, probably ur family/kids. Which is why many take plea deals that help the feds get their 90% conviction rate. "Just plead guilty and u go home tomorrow, pay a fine and do community service". This also sets precident for others they charge because they can say that they have 20 other convictions for the same crime.
Below is 1 vid, but YT his others if u want more background. He has a GFM under Matt Hoover for his legal defense and expenses.
https://youtu.be/EJMHrge7Zrc
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Interesting, there are multiple stages of manufacturing items, when does the item become a firearm or a firearm part? (rhetorical question)
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Interesting, there are multiple stages of manufacturing items, when does the item become a firearm or a firearm part? (rhetorical question)
A full-auto sear is a more serious manufacturing issue than a trigger or a lower receiver. The part exclusive of any other part is a restricted item which requires you to file an application and pay a $200 tax. No different than buying a complete full auto machine gun.
There has been case after case of someone trying to skirt the law and sell full auto sears. Some even advertise as "coat hooks" that were created on a 3D printer...
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/man-arrested-for-selling-hundreds-of-3d-printed-drop-in-auto-sear-coat-hooks/
I don't think it's about "stages" as much as something being a "functional equivalent" of something that can't be sold to the general public.
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A full-auto sear is a more serious manufacturing issue than a trigger or a lower receiver. The part exclusive of any other part is a restricted item which requires you to file an application and pay a $200 tax. No different than buying a complete full auto machine gun.
There has been case after case of someone trying to skirt the law and sell full auto sears. Some even advertise as "coat hooks" that were created on a 3D printer...
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/man-arrested-for-selling-hundreds-of-3d-printed-drop-in-auto-sear-coat-hooks/
I don't think it's about "stages" as much as something being a "functional equivalent" of something that can't be sold to the general public.
I think my point is just that it is hard to draw a clean line at which point a gun or part becomes what it is.
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I think my point is just that it is hard to draw a clean line at which point a gun or part becomes what it is.
"Functionally equivalent" pretty much defines that line. The sear in the article is a picture on a piece of metal that can be turned into a Lightning Link, which can act as a full auto sear in some Colt AR-15s turning it into a machine gun.
If the drawing were not on a material that can operate as an actual sear in a rifle, I don't think we'd be hearing about this.
By using a metal "keycard", the intent became obvious: cut along the dotted lines and make a FA sear/Lightning Link.
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"Functionally equivalent" pretty much defines that line. The sear in the article is a picture on a piece of metal that can be turned into a Lightning Link, which can act as a full auto sear in some Colt AR-15s turning it into a machine gun.
If the drawing were not on a material that can operate as an actual sear in a rifle, I don't think we'd be hearing about this.
By using a metal "keycard", the intent became obvious: cut along the dotted lines and make a FA sear/Lightning Link.
Forgetting 1 also has to assemble the cut outs b4 dropping it in the gun.
So is the exact drawing on paper not a machine gun?
Keep in mind, CRS wasnt making them and at the time he was distributing them for a very short period while it was legal to do so. He stopped all distribution prior to the maker being arrested and charged. He made vids about it and warning people that it is now a machinegun. And if the ATf comes to your home, dont lie to them.
He made similar vids about Forced Reset triggers and WOT triggers. Both are also defined now as a machine gun and neither owners have been arrested. Raided yes, but arrested, no.
The charge against him is conspiracy to make. Not selling of machine guns or making of them. He was never in the factory or office of the company.
If a drawing of a part can get u arrested, then this is a very scary road to go down.
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His GFM has $80k in 1 day.
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This is the part where the AFT tries to threaten everyone who doesn't agree with the Biden regime, but instead they just convince more people than ever to start having build parties.
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Been following this story since he got taken in. He’s out now. Hope everything works out
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Been following this story since he got taken in. He’s out now. Hope everything works out
Hes screwed either way. Which is the example they want to make.
He had a vid about this. How close can 1 get to breaking the law, without actually breaking the law, b4 they come after u.
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Update
Matt is out on bail.
GOA and other orgs getting involved. They see the bigger picture.
As a FFL AND YTer as his source of income, both have ceased. Why his GFM and donations are important.
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More updates:
More YT'ers are donating their views to his channel because he cannot post any vids right now. This is 1 of his revenue streams, so lack of views is hurting him. I have never seen this done before. Which shows how much of a big deal this is.
Matt does look like a redneck, Monster drinking, uneducated guy, but if you watch his vids, he actually knows his stuff. Not only law/code wise, but gun stuff too.
He spoke about this in a prior vid about the Keycard, I'm going by memory :
Back in the day, the EPA was granted power to change definitions without having to go thru the legislative process for going against big oil companies. Since no once challenged this back then, now the ATF uses this. Examples are changing the def what a machine gun is or what a firearm is with regard to 80%. The issue is no one gets notice or a warning or grandfather. So the only way to know is to be following what they do daily and spreading the word via coconut wireless. So the ATF changed the def and ruled the keycard as a machine gun. Which prior to he was not selling or giving away.
This is why many YTers find this an important case, because #1 Matt will not accept a plea deal. He will fight this to the end, which would help the cause. And to charge someone for what was legal at the time is totally a missjustice.
The prosecution tried to deny his bail by showing a vid he made about it and the 3rd hole months ago. "If they're going to treat this keycard as a machine gun, you might as well drill that "3rd hole" because the charges are the same". Luckily, the judge saw thru their BS and granted him bail.
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"Functionally equivalent" pretty much defines that line. The sear in the article is a picture on a piece of metal that can be turned into a Lightning Link, which can act as a full auto sear in some Colt AR-15s turning it into a machine gun.
If the drawing were not on a material that can operate as an actual sear in a rifle, I don't think we'd be hearing about this.
By using a metal "keycard", the intent became obvious: cut along the dotted lines and make a FA sear/Lightning Link.
That was my understanding. Was it merely a drawing on the sheet of metal or was it etched in such a way that it can be bent to break away the desired part?
There are just so many ways someone could do such a thing trying to walk a thin line where they can claim the customer made/finished it.
For example, if anyone has built a plastic model they will recognize how the piece is attached to a frame and must be cut away or twisted till it comes loose. In this case did the company make the part or did I make the part when I removed it from the frame?
I think it would be hard to honestly defend an item if one merely had to remove the part from a frame to complete the manufacturing.
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That was my understanding. Was it merely a drawing on the sheet of metal or was it etched in such a way that it can be bent to break away the desired part?
There are just so many ways someone could do such a thing trying to walk a thin line where they can claim the customer made/finished it.
For example, if anyone has built a plastic model they will recognize how the piece is attached to a frame and must be cut away or twisted till it comes loose. In this case did the company make the part or did I make the part when I removed it from the frame?
I think it would be hard to honestly defend an item if one merely had to remove the part from a frame to complete the manufacturing.
It was etched on the metal, but you still need a tool to cut it out (hence use of word drawing). Then put the pieces together and then drop it into a certain Colt rifle that was last made in 1970. It would not work in any other brand or model of rifle, so even the Colt 6920, it would not work.
There was a case on a guy who has a CNC machine. he set it up and put in the calibrations to make lowers. But never pushed the button. You had to do it. The AFT busted him but he took an awesome plea deal, so that's how they got their guilty verdict. This was why the definition of an AR lower doesn't fit theirs. Which is why they offered a sweet deal so he doesn't go to trial and mess everything up for the AFT on lowers. What person wouldn't take that deal. Matt is different, he's not going to take any deals out of principal for the betterment of the 2a. He knows what's at stake because he stated so in other vids he made. Cirlce back to is a drawing now a machine gun. And any guilty conviction from a plea deal for this screws everyone else.
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It was etched on the metal, but you still need a tool to cut it out (hence use of word drawing). Then put the pieces together and then drop it into a certain Colt rifle that was last made in 1970. It would not work in any other brand or model of rifle, so even the Colt 6920, it would not work.
There was a case on a guy who has a CNC machine. he set it up and put in the calibrations to make lowers. But never pushed the button. You had to do it. The AFT busted him but he took an awesome plea deal, so that's how they got their guilty verdict. This was why the definition of an AR lower doesn't fit theirs. Which is why they offered a sweet deal so he doesn't go to trial and mess everything up for the AFT on lowers. What person wouldn't take that deal. Matt is different, he's not going to take any deals out of principal for the betterment of the 2a. He knows what's at stake because he stated so in other vids he made. Cirlce back to is a drawing now a machine gun. And any guilty conviction from a plea deal for this screws everyone else.
Thanks, I watched a few videos about that to help me see, I think that calling the drawing a machine gun was a clear overstep in reasoning. I basically agreed about bump stocks but banning a drawing I think clearly is too far.
The CNC one is another interesting one but obviously a bit more complicated.
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The CNC one is another interesting one but obviously a bit more complicated.
It's not complicated if you understand why the gov offered a sweet plea deal. They know the ramifications of this going to trial.
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It's not complicated if you understand why the gov offered a sweet plea deal. They know the ramifications of this going to trial.
I meant the manufacturing is more complicated. Its easy to cut out a piece with an angle grinder. A 3D model to be milled on a CNC machine is more complicated, more elements to it than simply "a drawing"
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I meant the manufacturing is more complicated. Its easy to cut out a piece with an angle grinder. A 3D model to be milled on a CNC machine is more complicated, more elements to it than simply "a drawing"
you have a CNC?
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I meant the manufacturing is more complicated. Its easy to cut out a piece with an angle grinder. A 3D model to be milled on a CNC machine is more complicated, more elements to it than simply "a drawing"
The lawsuit stated all data was inputted by the defendant who also owned the machine. He has no FFL. All the buyer did was push the start button.
So at what point is he making a lower or the buyer making their own lower. Until start button is activated, its nothing more than data and a blank rectangle piece of metal. None of which is a firearm.
So this brings us back to the auto keycard drawing. Is an image of parts combined a machine gun? The AFT thinks so. People know this is a slippery slope.
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you have a CNC?
Not yet, would like to though
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The lawsuit stated all data was inputted by the defendant who also owned the machine. He has no FFL. All the buyer did was push the start button.
So at what point is he making a lower or the buyer making their own lower. Until start button is activated, its nothing more than data and a blank rectangle piece of metal. None of which is a firearm.
So this brings us back to the auto keycard drawing. Is an image of parts combined a machine gun? The AFT thinks so. People know this is a slippery slope.
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Does a yakiniku restaurant not need a license just because you cook the meat yourself?
I just find it an interesting idea with no clear line. Who is making the gun, the person who set everything up? The machine? The person who pressed the start button?
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Does a yakiniku restaurant not need a license just because you cook the meat yourself?
I just find it an interesting idea with no clear line. Who is making the gun, the person who set everything up? The machine? The person who pressed the start button?
A license from who? The govement? More government intervention please. Sarcasm, all sarcasm and being a smartass on my part.
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Does a yakiniku restaurant not need a license just because you cook the meat yourself?
I just find it an interesting idea with no clear line. Who is making the gun, the person who set everything up? The machine? The person who pressed the start button?
Lawyers and politicians will give a spectrum of answers to that.
In reality, which is what should matter, if 99% of the effort went into pre-production so that the final step of production could be made correctly, the person doing the final step is the one who made it.
If I give you a software program that can crack a site's user password list, and you run it on a selected site, am I the one in trouble? Only if I knew you'd use it illegally am I in anyway accountable. Since there are legitimate uses for these types of utilities, you can't say the only reason for the password cracker was for illegal purposes.
Same for the lowers. As long as I do everything legally to set you up to make s usable lower, and you do the last step that turns an 80% into a 100% workable lower, I did nothing wrong. If you then use that lower to break the law (Ghost gun, robbery, mass shooting, ...), and I had no inclination that was your intention, I'm no more at fault than a store selling rat poison that someone uses to kill their spouse.
At some point, common sense gun control needs to actually start using common sense. The plans to 3-D print a gun are available. If someone downloads and uses the product illegally, is that the CAD designer's responsibility? What about the 3-D printer manufacturer? Or the raw materials used on the printer to form the gun? How far back can we "catch" someone about to something wrong?
Maybe we should apply this same logic to public welfare. Billions of dollars are stolen through fraud using the various government assistance programs: Medicaid, Medicare, Food Stamps, Stimulus Loans and handouts, etc. Should we put the people in charge of these programs in jail for the fraudulent losses these programs experience? Are they liable for the actions of others, just because these people made the funds available and they were misappropriated?
Same thing in my opinion. Either we are all guilty of what others do when we are enabling them, or we are not. Unless I know the ONLY REASON people are using my resources is to break the law, I can't be held criminally responsible.
Negligence is another aspect of this, but that gets into whether complying with the letter of the law is sufficient to prevent bad acts by someone using your product or services.
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Matt was found guilty on 5 of 8 charges.
Intent to distribute a machine gun. Even though he never sold the card to or gave it to anyone.
The best part is that the prosecutor felt threatened by Matt, so hes gonna be held until his arraingment hearing at end of july.
More weaponizing of the AFT/DOJ. Theyre making an example of him, yet absent in the hood.
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Matt was found guilty on 5 of 8 charges.
Intent to distribute a machine gun. Even though he never sold the card to or gave it to anyone.
The best part is that the prosecutor felt threatened by Matt, so hes gonna be held until his arraingment hearing at end of july.
More weaponizing of the AFT/DOJ. Theyre making an example of him, yet absent in the hood.
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When you make it easier to be a criminal than a legit businessman, guess what happens?
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https://youtu.be/xR3AVPs84Ys
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Does anyone else get the impression Mark Smith is yelling at you?
He has great content most of the time, but his voice grates on my nerves. :shake:
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Does anyone else get the impression Mark Smith is yelling at you?
He has great content most of the time, but his voice grates on my nerves. :shake:
I wondered the same. Is that how he talks or is he just excited on YT.
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In case no one wants to watch a 30 min vid.
This is based on what the court has released and not on the transcriots for the YT vid and by my memory.
1) The state is asking the jury to disregard if the part actually works, but instead base their ruling on "intent". So if someone gets a McDonalds cup with the same picture on it and claims it will make a machine gun, this is all that's needed to prosecute. Even though there is no way this will work. The suspicion is that the AFT could not provide any witness who successfully used the product as a machine gun. Yet the "Anarchist Cook Book" is for sale on Amazon and protected under the 1st amendment. This book tells you how to make bad stuff.
2) With the witnesses above, the AFT probably offered them a sweet deal and all they had to do we testify against the key card maker. none however got it to actually work
3) They're trying both CRS and the guy who actually sold, made the key cards together. This is highly unusually for a case like this. This makes the states case stronger.
4) They're getting the bank involved with the fact that CRS took out over $10K in cash at multiple locations and convicted him of "structuring". There is nothing illegal about taking out $10K in cash. What happened was for what ever reason, CRS and the bank teller got into an argument. So the teller googled CRS and then reported it to the AFT. I was in banking for years and its common for branches to only allow X amount to be taken out in cash due to not having enough. I'm going to assume this is what the argument was about. "this is my money, why can't I take out $50K in cash?".
The above is based on the 800 pages of court docs that was submitted. The transcripts has yet to be released.
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Seems similar to drug users who got caught buying fake weed and powders from undercover cops. Didn't matter that the drugs were fake. Only mattered that the fakes were advertised as real, and that the buyer intended to purchase real, illegal drugs.
Intent was all that was needed. The same would be true if the buyer was shopping for a bomb maker. Doesn't matter if the bomb didn't go boom if the suspect placed it where it would cause property damage, injury and/or death and then tried to detonate it, then his intentions are clear.
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I'm not following all the details, but I wonder over what time period did he withdraw the $10K amounts?
The amounts are important, because above that, the bank must report large cash deposits and withdrawals. He was demonstrating a possible intention of avoiding setting off any red flags by using multiple banks. Because the money launderers know of these bank rules, many banks started reporting smaller amounts than specified in the rules just in case. So, he might have been trying to dodge the flags but failing, if his bank was one that had a lower threshold.
I guess he's never heard of crypto? :crazy: He could have parked the money in a crypto account. if need be, he could replace the money into his business account for expenses later. There are no crypto tellers to argue with. :rofl:
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https://youtu.be/0_O_7SViWuo
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Matt has been released. He served 3 years of 5 years after a corrupt DOJ/judge/prosecution went after him.
Let this be a lesson to everyone, if the government wants to prosecute and convict you, they can. Look at all the corrupt judges ruling in favors for illegals as another example.
His youtube has been demonitized and he thinks it won't ever be monitized. He and his wife are still together.
I was hoping Trump would pardon him.
Update:
More corruption that I didn't know:
The owner of the key card went to his bank to cash a check payable to his company through his personal account. Bank said they cannot do this. This is common. He wanted to then close his account, but the bank didn't have enough cash on hand and could only give him $4500. So he took that and went to another branch to take out what they had, which was $5K. No branch had the $50K he needed. The bank testified about this. Yet he was charged with "structuring" to avoid the "currency transaction report" when one takes out over $10K in cash. This report gets sent to the IRS.
The teller has a bf or someone she knows at the AFT and cause he was giving the bank a hard time, this is what started the investigation into the key card owner, which lead to Hoover.
Hoover couildn't site the 2a or the 1a in court.
The AFT had to use certain ammo that would ignite very lightly, as in even a bolt coming forward could set it off.
The gov also skipped the step to detemine whether the card is a machine gun or not, isntead they went straight to trial if Hoover broke the law or not. The jury isn't allowed to detemine if the card is a machine gun or not, they were there just to determine if he sold machine guns that the AFT determined is one.
So again, if the gov wants to go after you and convict you, they can.
Hoover was offered a deal to snitch on the key card owner and only serve 1 yr in prison. He didn't, so he got 3 yrs.