2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: ren on April 19, 2022, 05:13:27 PM
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https://breakingdefense.com/2022/04/sig-sauer-nabs-armys-next-generation-squad-weapon-contract/ (https://breakingdefense.com/2022/04/sig-sauer-nabs-armys-next-generation-squad-weapon-contract/)
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CMO going to be searching GunBroker for the XM5 clones soon. . .
Or wait, is that only if USMC adopts. . . ;D
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CMO going to be searching GunBroker for the XM5 clones soon. . .
Or wait, is that only if USMC adopts. . . ;D
Shit, wonder if lvl3+ can stop it.
Brb, gonna start new 1 year thread b4 buying.
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Brb, gonna start new 1 year thread b4 buying.
:rofl:
Here we go again.
New chapter…
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I'm still waiting for my XM-8
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I had some time to look into this.
The Spear is a beast of a rifle to carry. 8.4lbs vs. 6.5lbs M4.
Compared to a Scar 17, same same.
Mags, 20 or 25rd mags. Compared to 30rd M4/16 mags. This might be an issue as 30rds has been the universal standard.
Nam era days going from the m14 to the M16, history channel mentions GIs would carry easily way more 5.56 than the 7.62. I forgot the ballpark but it was like 500rds to 200rds.
And they complained how the AK mags were 30rds, so they wanted 30rds also (20rd M16 mags at the time).
I foresee the same problem going from 5.56 to 6.8, especially the mags for your basic soldier. Then add in the room clearing/urban fighting with a rifle that has more recoil and bulkier.
The 6.8 SAW wouldnt be as bad of a switch. Soliders carry the m240 anyways, so just replace both the m249 and m240 with the 6.8.
I have a feeling the Spear will tank as a replacement for the M4.
The above are my civilian opinions.
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Suppose they got the contract for replacement barrels too. :D
IIRC, 6.8 CM is a barrel burner. :P
Not bad for competition but as a squad weapon of war ? ???
Life span of 2k or so rounds worth,depending upon rate of fire, duration of string of fire, and velocity. :(
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Suppose they got the contract for replacement barrels too. :D
IIRC, 6.8 CM is a barrel burner. :P
Not bad for competition but as a squad weapon of war ? ???
Life span of 2k or so rounds worth,depending upon rate of fire, duration of string of fire, and velocity. :(
???
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Suppose they got the contract for replacement barrels too. :D
IIRC, 6.8 CM is a barrel burner. :P
Not bad for competition but as a squad weapon of war ? ???
Life span of 2k or so rounds worth,depending upon rate of fire, duration of string of fire, and velocity. :(
If this is true for 6.8 SPC, then wow. Cash cow. But the contract was limited to a max amount, so if would be up to SIG to have to replace the barrels. And we all know how good the military procurement can be. I mean the M17 was the cheapest of them all. Then past lessons with the mess up of the early M16's (powder change and no cleaning required statement), M1 Garand and the issue with clips in the final testing (machine calibration was changed because some worker had the bright idea and didn't consult engineering first), SCAR for SF, etc...
Maybe future lining of the barrel, like how they chrome lined the M16's after they fixed the powder issue.
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If this is true for 6.8 SPC, then wow. Cash cow. But the contract was limited to a max amount, so if would be up to SIG to have to replace the barrels. And we all know how good the military procurement can be. I mean the M17 was the cheapest of them all. Then past lessons with the mess up of the early M16's (powder change and no cleaning required statement), M1 Garand and the issue with clips in the final testing (machine calibration was changed because some worker had the bright idea and didn't consult engineering first), SCAR for SF, etc...
Maybe future lining of the barrel, like how they chrome lined the M16's after they fixed the powder issue.
6.8 SPC isn't that bad for barrel wear. Many of the 6 mm and 6.5 mm variants (Creedmoor, PRC, etc) are more barrel burning, depending on how hot they are loaded, which can be quite hot for say bolt actions. Also remember that barrel being "shot out" is relative. Some PRS shooters have said they pull barrels when they degrade say from 0.3 moa to more than 0.5 moa. Show me an M4 or other current Army small arm that is held to that level.
I haven't read up in a while, but last I recall, the 6.8 cartridge was "totally new", but probably not that different from the SPC.
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I haven't read up in a while, but last I recall, the 6.8 cartridge was "totally new", but probably not that different from the SPC.
The base of the brass cartridge isn't brass, but steel or something. This helps reduce weight, something about the primer, and with pressure. It isn't welded together either, its pushed together. And 1 concern was what if that base falls off or separates from the brass. SIG says it takes 1500-2000 lbs of force to pull them apart.
From the vids I've seen and it was big guys shooting the Spear, the recoil is huge. Good luck providing suppressing fire (mag dumping in control).
Also Lvl 3 body armor can stop this round. The same armor typically cannot stop XM193 that's over 3000ft/sec. Which is why LVL3+ and greater are needed to stop XM193. I bring this up because my google search popped up that this round/rifle is the body armor killer. Unless they're talking about Russian made plates.
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I'm going to swoop on in and call this a Government attempt to control the ammo
supply.
The selected Cartridge won't be widely available to civilians - on purpose.
It is a Hybrid case of steel and brass.
Not going to be much civilian call and use for such
ammo
So most ammo people aren't going to invest in it.
Unlike .223, .308, 30.06 or 7.62X39.
All pretty useful for sport shooting.
6.8 mm, not so much.
Just a thought from your local anti-government
Troll. :shaka:
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SNIP
Also Lvl 3 body armor can stop this round. The same armor typically cannot stop XM193 that's over 3000ft/sec. Which is why LVL3+ and greater are needed to stop XM193. I bring this up because my google search popped up that this round/rifle is the body armor killer. Unless they're talking about Russian made plates.
Yeah, speed kills, at least many rifle plates/armor.
Heads up that many people know that. As well as can and do load up ammo that have some blazing velocities.
I'm going to swoop on in and call this a Government attempt to control the ammo
supply.
The selected Cartridge won't be widely available to civilians - on purpose.
It is a Hybrid case of steel and brass.
Not going to be much civilian call and use for such
ammo
So most ammo people aren't going to invest in it.
Unlike .223, .308, 30.06 or 7.62X39.
All pretty useful for sport shooting.
6.8 mm, not so much.
Just a thought from your local anti-government
Troll. :shaka:
That's part of the allure. What one can't get, as wells as those who can get will either "capitalize" or just get to gain attention.
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6.8 SPC is a short cartridge. The SPEAR shoots 277 Sig Fury (6.8x51mm).
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I'm going to swoop on in and call this a Government attempt to control the ammo
supply.
The selected Cartridge won't be widely available to civilians - on purpose.
It is a Hybrid case of steel and brass.
Not going to be much civilian call and use for such
ammo
So most ammo people aren't going to invest in it.
Unlike .223, .308, 30.06 or 7.62X39.
All pretty useful for sport shooting.
6.8 mm, not so much.
Just a thought from your local anti-government
Troll. :shaka:
I didn't read into it yet, but could the Spear fire an all brass 6.8 and be OK? Then the civilians can get the non hybrid ammo, which would be a lot easier to produce. I mean SIG designed the casing for specific reasons (to meet military demand), but the gun wouldn't blow up with an all brass case right. Basically it's like a shorter 7.62 brass case, so trim existing 7.62 brass for people who reload.
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6.8 SPC is a short cartridge. The SPEAR shoots 277 Sig Fury (6.8x51mm).
Better re-name that for "civilians" then. . .
;D
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Has anyone here looked up the cost of the Spear?
Then the cost of the ammo?
I won't be starting my thread about buying one. I rather dual wield Colt M45A1's and give away 45ACP ammo like they're candy.
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Has anyone here looked up the cost of the Spear?
Then the cost of the ammo?
I won't be starting my thread about buying one. I rather dual wield Colt M45A1's and give away 45ACP ammo like they're candy.
A while back they were posting/advertising it as a limited release and $7999 MSRP.
No idea about the ammo.
Edit: It was a first production special release price. Not sure about a standard production. I haven't really paid attention to it because Sig is boujie.
https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html (https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html)
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M250
Perks
Can feed belt with top cover closed.
Top cover is about 5 inches long. Not the entire top needing to be opened.
Barrel change compatible to use NATO 7.62.
Gas adjustible for when MG is dirty and slowing down. Allow more gas to help cycle the action.
At 12lbs, lighter than both 249 and 240.
Con
Cant use M4 mags in an emergency. M249 can use them, but on full auto, will jam often due to feed rate. But slower shots are ok. This is good in case all belts are depleted and the gunner needs ammo. U wont have a 12lbs paperweight. Xm250 cannot accept mags from the Spear. Both shoot the same caliber 6.8 SPC. Like how the m4/16 and m249 both shoot 5.56.
Overall IMO civillian, this is a good replacement.
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After Afghanistan I can understand why they would want to change up the ammo so that it's not compatible with the enemy. Oh wait. They think we are the enemy...
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Anyone wondering why all the vids of the XM5 and xm250 are all supressed?
I wonder how the recoil is without it.
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Anyone wondering why all the vids of the XM5 and xm250 are all suppressed?
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Brownells just released a review:
https://youtu.be/VAAhIB-Ut7k
Based on his description, seems like the suppressor will be standard issue with each weapon. IMO, I don’t see any reason to NOT have a suppressor if you have access to one.
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It's FDE! CMO better start saving up! Already "matchy matchy"!
If suppressors were legal in HI, I'd be more broke than I am now. . .
On another forums, there was quite a bit of discussion (arguing really) on suppressors, particularly the need, utility, etc. Interesting that discussion and opinions were almost to the 9 vs 45 level.
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It's FDE! CMO better start saving up! Already "matchy matchy"!
If suppressors were legal in HI, I'd be more broke than I am now. . .
On another forums, there was quite a bit of discussion (arguing really) on suppressors, particularly the need, utility, etc. Interesting that discussion and opinions were almost to the 9 vs 45 level.
I def aint spending $8K on this. Matchy matchy or not.
I look at it this way, your basic troops don't need it. It's just another thing to spend money on and have to maintain or lose. But again, the recoil without it must be huge. Try CQB with this beast. I foresee them doing what Israel did with the Tavor, they went back to the M4.
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I def aint spending $8K on this. Matchy matchy or not.
I look at it this way, your basic troops don't need it. It's just another thing to spend money on and have to maintain or lose. But again, the recoil without it must be huge. Try CQB with this beast. I foresee them doing what Israel did with the Tavor, they went back to the M4.
Go back at the start of your 1911 thread. . . ;D
Have you shot suppressed?
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Go back at the start of your 1911 thread. . . ;D
Have you shot suppressed?
Never. I planned to in Vegas, but lost too much $ and didn't want to burn thru any more.
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Never. I planned to in Vegas, but lost too much $ and didn't want to burn thru any more.
"You chose poorly" - Templar Knight
If they were legal in HI, I could have them (at least one) for handgun (9mm), AR, and bolt guns. I could use the same can for both my both guns, but I'd probably get one for each. 8)
I have buddies who have tuned their .300 blk subsonics to be pretty quiet, or at least a lot less noisy.
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I look at it this way, your basic troops don't need it. It's just another thing to spend money on and have to maintain or lose.
Government never seems to have an issue spending money on things that require maintenance or can be lost. *cough*RAIL*cough*
Basic troops, totally, most likely the last to get the new hotness - spec.ops will be first in line. The cans might be gone or scaled back by the time grunts get them.
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"higher pressures to allow flatter shooting than 6.5 creedmoor out to 1000 yards with 13" barrel" (or something like that) 8)
That will be interesting to see. But maybe they just put a steel cartridge base on a 6.5 PRC. . .
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"higher pressures to allow flatter shooting than 6.5 creedmoor out to 1000 yards with 13" barrel" (or something like that) 8)
Got to wonder about barrel throat erosion if they try to get the ballistics they mention with that short of a barrel.
I say BS out of a barrel that short.
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Got to wonder about barrel throat erosion if they try to get the ballistics they mention with that short of a barrel.
I say BS out of a barrel that short.
Right? I'm no expert on that stuff, but from my research into the "barrel burning" cartridges recently, many 6mm-7mm cartridges (like the 6.5 PRC) are pushing things. Different context of competition vs combat, but some of those cartridges are shooting out barrels in the 1000 round range, or less. Plus, rate of fire makes degradation worse. . .
For my 6.5 cm bolt gun, I'll be happy to get 3-4k out that barrel at "safe and sane" rate of fire.
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Brownell's
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Watched the Brownells vid, they haven't shot it yet because even for them, they dont' have enough ammo for a range day. So still no vids on unsurpressed shooting. Or room clearing.
I think the XM5 would be a better DMR type of weapon. But the XM250 is a home run to replace the M240 and M249.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h43ToUjBkPQ
Here is a video with some info. When I first read the press release I thought it was 6.8 SPC. It definitely is not. The round is actually .277 Sig Fury (6.8 x 51mm). Which is essentially the same size as 7.62x51mm but necked down to 6.8mm.
So the weapon and magazine weight/size will be closer to SCAR-H or AR10 platform (although likely a little lighter). That means way more weight to carry the same amount of rounds for soldiers as their current loadout. Magazines will likely be 20 or 25 round capacity similar to Other .308 battle rifles. From what I have seen the plain Jane rifle XM5 will be over 8 lbs with no accessories added. So it is gonna be a big weight increase for soldiers to carry compared to M4.
Also I am including an article below about the actual chambering compared to .308 and 6.5 creedmoor. It will be loaded to 80,000 PSI, compared to only 60,000 psi for the .308. This increased pressure is needed to achieve the target muzzle velocities. This increased pressure is likely why the hybrid brass/steel case is needed.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/
But this massive increase in pressure and velocity will likely cause major barrel wear. The pressure is much higher than some of the other chamberings in similar size bullets, and some of those chamberings of the 6.5 competition variety like 6.5 creed etc. are already known to be barrel burners.
The other thing the increased pressure will result in is increased recoil. I wouldn’t be surprised if this round/rifle combo will have more recoil than .308.
Basically the army went from small caliber carbine to completely swing to a battle rifle on steroids as their primary weapon. With the increased weight of weapon/ammo and the massive increase in recoil from current M4; I just don’t see it being very effective practical weapon to issue to all members of the army. I think it would be good for certain scenarios/situations but not as a do all system.
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With the increased weight of weapon/ammo and the massive increase in recoil from current M4; I just don’t see it being very effective practical weapon to issue to all members of the army. I think it would be good for certain scenarios/situations but not as a do all system.
https://youtu.be/v_8Gf2T5LeU
Matt agrees, with video reference receipts (especially the Lucky Gunner excerpt on 2200 FPS)
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https://youtu.be/v_8Gf2T5LeU
Matt agrees, with video reference receipts (especially the Lucky Gunner excerpt on 2200 FPS)
I wonder if he isn't allowed to use his pointing knife due to the indictment?
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The producer of this video claims he has tested the XM-5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oWZhjCrk8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oWZhjCrk8)
Bottom line revolves around the question of whether a prospective home invader or enemy soldier in your state is wearing body armor that would negate your current weapons, a handgun, AR-15, or shotgun. Say you have the money to buy a civilian version of the XM-5, but the manufacturer only sells it with a suppressor and makes the warranty contingent on equipping it with that factory item. According to HRS §134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties., we may get slapped with a Class C felony for possessing (in HI) suppressors cited in the statute. The laws have us boxed in, and even if we own a house in a red state which permits ownership of said weapon, a live-in mistress or butler may need to be present full time in the second residence. Try convincing Mrs. CMO of that need. Anyway, we should try to find a range where they will rent out the weapon for several hours, so we can evaluate its effectiveness.
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Meh, if one is worried about all that, there are plenty of existing capable firearms. Maybe not exactly like what the Army will have, but the capability is certainly available. Over-think-ing. . .
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Meh, if one is worried about all that, there are plenty of existing capable firearms. Maybe not exactly like what the Army will have, but the capability is certainly available. Over-think-ing. . .
You are correct. There are other calibers/rounds that are definitely capable and available to civilians. I think it will be a long time until ammunition/weapon systems are available to civilian side in this caliber. If this is gonna be the future army standard issue weapon, then I am guessing the ammunition contracts are gonna be in the millions for just the initial delivery contract for ammo. There won’t be much available on the civilian side for a while. And I don’t think it will catch on mainstream on the civilian side until there is at least a few years of successful full scale implementation on the military side.
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The producer of this video claims he has tested the XM-5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oWZhjCrk8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oWZhjCrk8)
Bottom line revolves around the question of whether a prospective home invader or enemy soldier in your state is wearing body armor that would negate your current weapons, a handgun, AR-15, or shotgun. Say you have the money to buy a civilian version of the XM-5, but the manufacturer only sells it with a suppressor and makes the warranty contingent on equipping it with that factory item. According to HRS §134-8 Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties., we may get slapped with a Class C felony for possessing (in HI) suppressors cited in the statute. The laws have us boxed in, and even if we own a house in a red state which permits ownership of said weapon, a live-in mistress or butler may need to be present full time in the second residence. Try convincing Mrs. CMO of that need. Anyway, we should try to find a range where they will rent out the weapon for several hours, so we can evaluate its effectiveness.
6.8 Fury will not penetrate modern body armor. There are already vids out there with Lvl3's stopping it. I was concerned about this because I just spent $ on new plates that are good for 15 years. And would hate to have to replace them after a few years (time it takes b4 civillians get their hands on the Spear) only to go back to LVL4's.
Even if the rifle is supposed to come with a suppressor, no gun store here would sell it to you with one. SIG isn't stupid and knows if they include a suppressor with the rifle in the civilian market, then people who can buy them need to wait a while and pay the $200 tax stamp before even getting the gun. This would delay sales. The website might state included, but I haven't seen 1 Spear owned by a civilian yet. All the YT influences have them on loan from SIG.
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You are correct. There are other calibers/rounds that are definitely capable and available to civilians. I think it will be a long time until ammunition/weapon systems are available to civilian side in this caliber. If this is gonna be the future army standard issue weapon, then I am guessing the ammunition contracts are gonna be in the millions for just the initial delivery contract for ammo. There won’t be much available on the civilian side for a while. And I don’t think it will catch on mainstream on the civilian side until there is at least a few years of successful full scale implementation on the military side.
Add in that if the price remains as is, not many will be willing to spend $8K on this rifle and cost of ammo.
I predict like the SCAR, this rifle will be a flop. I expect it to be on the surplus market after a few years for much cheaper. Except the SCAR didn't get as huge of a contract as SIG. Which is why they're not on the surplus market.
The last gun that was, was the Colt M45A1. Which was offered to Gun Broker top members for like $1K a few years ago. The Marines MEU/Recon are switching to the M17/18 (SIG P320). Not all have converted yet, there are still units using the M45A1. Most recent pics with a date on them are the A-stan withdrawal jack up. The fallen Marines castkets in the plane are being stood next to MEU members with M45's.
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6.8 Fury will not penetrate modern body armor. There are already vids out there with Lvl3's stopping it. I was concerned about this because I just spent $ on new plates that are good for 15 years. And would hate to have to replace them after a few years (time it takes b4 civillians get their hands on the Spear) only to go back to LVL4's.
Even if the rifle is supposed to come with a suppressor, no gun store here would sell it to you with one. SIG isn't stupid and knows if they include a suppressor with the rifle in the civilian market, then people who can buy them need to wait a while and pay the $200 tax stamp before even getting the gun. This would delay sales. The website might state included, but I haven't seen 1 Spear owned by a civilian yet. All the YT influences have them on loan from SIG.
"What if he shot you in the face"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofQ6i9I1IYY
When my new set of plates arrive, I'll try to setup a way to shoot one of my current sets. . . O0
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"What if he shot you in the face"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofQ6i9I1IYY
When my new set of plates arrive, I'll try to setup a way to shoot one of my current sets. . . O0
We did land on the moon.
What you got coming in? My concern with the 15 year expiration on the Shotstop Duritium was if they crack before then. They have a vid since it's nor ceramic, but polyurethane of it getting smashed with a hammer multiple times, then shot. It held up.
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We did land on the moon.
What you got coming in? My concern with the 15 year expiration on the Shotstop Duritium was if they crack before then. They have a vid since it's nor ceramic, but polyurethane of it getting smashed with a hammer multiple times, then shot. It held up.
We did? ???
A while back, I got steel plates because I was going to travel with them (for classes that required). Figured they'd get thrown around. But that was many years ago now, and plate technology has changed so much. Looking back, I probably would have went with the lighter weight composite or ceramics. I ended up with them both. I guess ok to have both. Looking back, the cost of them over say 5-10 years isn't that much considering other firearms related spending.
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This isn't making sense to me. So many issues with the gun and the ammo, it just doesn't seem like a good decision
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This isn't making sense to me. So many issues with the gun and the ammo, it just doesn't seem like a good decision
It's the Military. It doesn't have to make sense.
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It's the Military. It doesn't have to make sense.
^^^This.
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It's the Government. It doesn't have to make sense.
FIFY
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Sig won the pistol contracts. Now the rifle and LMG.
Seems fishy?
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Sig won the pistol contracts. Now the rifle and LMG.
Seems fishy?
You mean the government is actually choosing the best design and function over political and financial concerns?
Yeah, that's weird.
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You mean the government is actually choosing the best design and function over political and financial concerns?
Yeah, that's weird.
Lol idk if its the best design. The ammo being used does sound great. I wont be getting it tho. I still think 6mm arc or 6.8 spc may have been a better choice.. Woth that said, I had a 6.8 spc with carbine gas system by rra back in 2009-2010 or so. And I could handle the recoil pretty good. And I'm a weak person. Ive never shot a 6mm arc tho. So I cant comment on that. But did research as I wanted to get one 1 day in the future. Would a 6.8x51 be good for room clearing (in a military role) ?
There just seems like the cons outweigh the pros vs what they are using now. I was only talking bout it being as an infantry weapon.
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Not the definitive marker, but GarandThumb seemed to have pretty good review of the rifle, as well as good comments on context of the rifle.
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Still no one shooting it without the suppressor. Might as well red loctite that thing on so no PFC can lose it.
I know a guy who trains the Army to use the M17 (P320) and you would be amazed at the things PFC's can do to cause malfunctions.
Garand was 1 of the first to show that beast of a 25rd mag. I wonder what a 30 rd mag would look like.
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Still no one shooting it without the suppressor. Might as well red loctite that thing on so no PFC can lose it.
I know a guy who trains the Army to use the M17 (P320) and you would be amazed at the things PFC's can do to cause malfunctions.
Garand was 1 of the first to show that beast of a 25rd mag. I wonder what a 30 rd mag would look like.
So when are you starting your "First Sig MPX" thread?
And yes, idle hands of an E1 is a VERY dangerous thing. . . They find ways to break things were supposed to be bomb-proof. Ask any E5-E9. . . ;D
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So when are you starting your "First Sig MPX" thread?
When it cost $1K for the rifle.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTZRCEh1Czg