2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: robtmc on May 21, 2022, 01:00:02 PM
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Recently found the Palmetto State upper with 16" SS barrel produce shotgun like "patterns" at 50 yards. BUIS and EOTECH, same results.
Any of you into rolling your own have any thoughts on an accurate barrel that does not break the bank and cause marital strife?
I am tooled up for mid length gas, hand guard and .75"gas block. Like to re-use that stuff to minimize $ layout.
Would really like an 18" barrel, but would stick with 16" if I had to. Barrel weight not an issue, used to my .308 weight.
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I've had excellent (or at least very good enough for me) accuracy with BCM midlength barrels. I have a BCM complete upper for the AR that has the 1-8 and I am getting sub 1-MOA with match ammo (FGMM 69 and 77 gr). I shoot 16" barrels, but I know their 18" SS barrels get good reviews.
I used to have a 18"" mid-length upper with a White Oak Armament barrel. I ended up selling it to a buddy, but I was very impressed with that setup. They also get very good reviews.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/barrels.html
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BCM is a bit above the $ what I can get away with.
Whiteoak is closer. Saw Bear Creek, but they have sketchy reviews.
Strike sounded good, but it seems they have discontinued AR barrels.
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White Oak (in house Wilson blanks), Criterion
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So, looks like a decent barrel that would not be a question mark will be upwards of $250, plus maybe new gas block depending on supplier.
Looking at Faxon, know nothing of them. might have to cough up for a .625" gas block.
Ah well, at least the thing is no worse than a Mini-14, so it can be a decent plinker for short range in the mean time.
Will bolt on the scope, stretch it to 100 yards and see how bad it really is.
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https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/
I've had very good results with these guys
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https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/
I've had very good results with these guys
Got it. At least one barrel there would help me reuse gas blocks, handguard, etc.
The barrel that would work perfectly is out of stock, of course.
Assume you got good accuracy out of their barrels?
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you could try scrubbing the crap out of it with some JB and a brush and/or follow up with firelapping.
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White Oak (in house Wilson blanks), Criterion
Wilson has this on sale, opinions? Ftis my criteria of mid, .75 gas block, 16-18"
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-556-NATO-LE-16-ROUND-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-8/productinfo/TR%2D556LEMG16RT8/ (https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-556-NATO-LE-16-ROUND-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-8/productinfo/TR%2D556LEMG16RT8/)
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you could try scrubbing the crap out of it with some JB and a brush and/or follow up with firelapping.
Yeah, the amount of copper in the "new" barrel from (I hope) only test firing suggests a lot of roughness. Got some JB paste used on air rifles to try.
Shipping Tubbs lapping ammo here would be $$$.
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Wilson has this on sale, opinions? Ftis my criteria of mid, .75 gas block, 16-18"
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-556-NATO-LE-16-ROUND-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-8/productinfo/TR%2D556LEMG16RT8/ (https://shopwilsoncombat.com/BARREL-556-NATO-LE-16-ROUND-STAINLESS-GLASS-BEAD-1-8/productinfo/TR%2D556LEMG16RT8/)
In case didn;t know - Wilson Combat is not the same as Wilson barrels. I don't have any experience with Wilson Combat.
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In case didn;t know - Wilson Combat is not the same as Wilson barrels. I don't have any experience with Wilson Combat.
So I read. Wilson does not sell to private buyers unless you want a bunch of them. JSE surplus is apparently a retail outlet for Wilson Arms.
Need to decide how accurate this rifle really needs to be considering there is nowhere on the island to let it stretch out.
After my AR 308 did around MOA or better with GI surplus in spite of all my barrel bedding efforts, I have gotten to just expect decent accuracy from the AR platform.
Edit; Looked at my stuff bought from PSA, and saw that this upper (pinned gas block since removed0 only cost $180. A sale, but then again, might have been trying to unload a bad batch of barrels as complete uppers.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-8-stainless-steel-freedom-upper-no-bcg-or-charging-handle.html (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-8-stainless-steel-freedom-upper-no-bcg-or-charging-handle.html)
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Have you borescoped the barrel in question?
I don't have any particular minimum accuracy for my AR15s, but I did do a lot of testing on what is the "inherent accuracy" of many of my ARs, including a couple of that I still own. The basic barrels that I have from BCM, Colt, and LMT have all been excellent, plus a DD upper that I sold off. I put them in a Lead Sled and 2-3 MOA was easy with 1x red dots, with less with a magnified optic.
I have a PSA upper, but that is my "beater" upper that is meant to test shooting all sorts of crappy and underpowered ammo. I haven't tested it like the uppers above.
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Rule of thumb: all AR15 barrels should be capable of sub-moa accuracy giving 3-rd groupings of 1 inch at 100 yards. Any manufacturing or damage related problems with the barrel should only be noticed at longer distances.
Nice write-up on what to shop for, which specs to choose, and brands that are top-rated:
https://www.wingtactical.com/best-ar-15-barrels/
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Have you borescoped the barrel in question?
Yes. Immediately after getting the Teslong. i found very noticeable copper fouling (new barrel?). Just yesterday again after posting here. Barrel crown looks good, had not really checked it before.
Only thing I seem to notice is the lands do not all start at the same distance in the throat. no idea if that matters. Go-no go gauges show acceptable head-spacing, assuming I did it right.
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Yes. Immediately after getting the Teslong. i found very noticeable copper fouling (new barrel?). Just yesterday again after posting here. Barrel crown looks good, had not really checked it before.
Only thing I seem to notice is the lands do not all start at the same distance in the throat. no idea if that matters. Go-no go gauges show acceptable head-spacing, assuming I did it right.
Did you clean (or at least run a few patches) before shooting first time? I recall (reading and hearing experiences) that some barrels come with copper (or at least reddish, brownish) looking coating in the barrel, which I assume is mostly corrosion inhibitor. In one custom rifle, the patches were reddish/brown. It went away after a few wet patches.
I'll have to check my upper with the 1-8, but the chamber cut and transition to the lands should be uniform around the circumference.
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Damn, my AR is tangerine grouping at 50 with a red dot. No rear bag, but front supported by rice bag. Not slow fire as I have no patience for this, so more like slower than moderate fire when zeroing. This was years ago when I last zero'd, so probably more noob user error. S&W M&P Sport II. So as cheap as they come and does the job for skill builders.
TBH, I never fired at paper at 100, just a 6 inch gong that is able to be hit consistently.
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Did you clean (or at least run a few patches) before shooting first time? I recall (reading and hearing experiences) that some barrels come with copper
Yes, posted of my frustration with the LGS not even carrying basic bore cleaning fluids. Had to order Montana Xtreme copper cleaner from Amazon after I noticed the copper fouling in the first 1/4 or so of the barrel.
had not fired it before that but had run a patch through with some Hoppes.
The unevenness of the lands had me wondering about a sloppy reaming job, but figured firing would show if it mattered..
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I have bcm and spikes chf barrels. I like them.
I had great experience with faxon barrels. Moa more or less depending on what ammo I used at the time.
My friend said his BA barrel outshoots his faxon barrels tho. Might take a look at those too. Usually can find them on sale at righttobear.com. ive ordered alot through them in the past but never a BA barrel.
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Yes, posted of my frustration with the LGS not even carrying basic bore cleaning fluids. Had to order Montana Xtreme copper cleaner from Amazon after I noticed the copper fouling in the first 1/4 or so of the barrel.
had not fired it before that but had run a patch through with some Hoppes.
The unevenness of the lands had me wondering about a sloppy reaming job, but figured firing would show if it mattered..
Note that carbon and copper gets laid down in layers. Not sure how many rounds down the pipe, but with as little as even 200 (maybe even less), you can see carbon, then copper, then carbon. And yeah, not unusual to see the copper and carbon in the first 1/4 of the barrel. For my bolt actions, which is where I use the borescopes, the fouling is in the first 4-6" of 26" barrel. I've since used the borescope for some of my ARs, but mostly to see how used and abused they look. That and checking out the gas port erosion, which surprisingly wasn't that much in a couple of my ARs in the 4000-6000 round range.
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Rule of thumb: all AR15 barrels should be capable of sub-moa accuracy giving 3-rd groupings of 1 inch at 100 yards. Any manufacturing or damage related problems with the barrel should only be noticed at longer distances.
Not very familiar with the mouse cartridge AR or what to expect. Early M-16 was my only use of one, and a short while owning a Colt HBAR. Never tried any sort of accuracy testing.
Admit I had the impression that MOA was a given, sub-MOA required money or luck of the draw. Ammo for my test was PMC and IMI 55gr stuff. Not match, but at 50 yards, how bad could it be.
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I would seriously consider a WOA barrel, or a Criterion barrel if you are looking for an accurate shooter. I am looking on Criterion's website, and you can get an 18in Hybrid Profile (medium contour) , rifle gas barrel with a new BCM gas tube for $259.24. Use discount code "executivefirearms"
https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-hybrid-barrel-rifle-gas-chrome-lined/?v=7516fd43adaa
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I would seriously consider a WOA barrel, or a Criterion barrel if you are looking for an accurate shooter. I am looking on Criterion's website, and you can get an 18in Hybrid Profile (medium contour) , rifle gas barrel with a new BCM gas tube for $259.24. Use discount code "executivefirearms"
https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-hybrid-barrel-rifle-gas-chrome-lined/?v=7516fd43adaa
Very happy with the Criterion barrel on my Ar 308.
To minimize $$ outlay and avoid domestic wrath, I am trying to stick with what works with my mid length system parts. A new rifle length free float hand-guard would blow that.
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Very happy with the Criterion barrel on my Ar 308.
To minimize $$ outlay and avoid domestic wrath, I am trying to stick with what works with my mid length system parts. A new rifle length free float hand-guard would blow that.
Totally understandable I am trying to resist the temptation to rebarrel one of my uppers with a new criterion core barrel.
I have been pretty satisfied with my Ballistic Advantage Hanson profile barrel. I like the profile, also they are HP and MPT tested, unlike the cheaper options. Also, right now they are running a memorial day sale, and if you have military discount you can pick up one of the premium hanson barrels for $165.They dont charge tax or shipping.
Also BA is the OEM barrel manufacturer for Aero Precision, also they OEM the barrels for SOLGW and others.
17.7in Midlength Hanson/ $188 ($169 w/ mil discount)
https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/17-7-5-56-ba-hanson-3-gun-midlength-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
16in Midlength Hanson - $184 ($165 w/mil discount)
https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/16-5-56-ba-hanson-midlength-ar-15-barrel-w-lo-pro-performance-series.html
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I just picked up a faxon pencil, haven’t had the chance to shoot it yet but dang it’s so light
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Not very familiar with the mouse cartridge AR or what to expect. Early M-16 was my only use of one, and a short while owning a Colt HBAR. Never tried any sort of accuracy testing.
Admit I had the impression that MOA was a given, sub-MOA required money or luck of the draw. Ammo for my test was PMC and IMI 55gr stuff. Not match, but at 50 yards, how bad could it be.
True. 50 yds is nothing when looking for consistency. If you're zeroing sights at 50 yds, and you can't get a one-inch grouping of 3-5 consecutive rounds, your zero setting is going to be questionable.
Today's manufacturing and QA processes when making standard MILSPEC barrels has to be better and more consistent than back in the "M-16 & HBAR days". I've built 2 ARs with very affordable, not-match-grade barrels, and they both were able to keyhole the same POI time after time at 50-100 yds.
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I just picked up a faxon pencil, haven’t had the chance to shoot it yet but dang it’s so light
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I've heard good things about Faxon barrels. Looking forward to seeing how yours works for you! :thumbsup:
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I just picked up a faxon pencil, haven’t had the chance to shoot it yet but dang it’s so light
Reading their web blurb was interesting.
Is this one a 5R barrel? Considering a slightly heavier profile.
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Reading their web blurb was interesting.
Is this one a 5R barrel? Considering a slightly heavier profile.
They specify their match 223 barrels as 5r , but I don’t see it on the description of their regular 556 which is the one I got
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Stuck the Teslong up it's arse again to try to get a shot of the uneven land starting points. Twisting the fiber optic around, might be shots of the same land, but it shows the issue.
Seems like a reamer shout leave them all the same starting point in the bore.
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Another shot
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Shot that appears to show lands engaging the bullet at different spots in the barrel.
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Chamber cut off center to bore?
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Chamber cut off center to bore?
No idea, not a machinist.
I suppose just trying to get feedback if this barrel is a lost cause.
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Stuck the Teslong up it's arse again to try to get a shot of the uneven land starting points. Twisting the fiber optic around, might be shots of the same land, but it shows the issue.
Seems like a reamer shout leave them all the same starting point in the bore.
Hard to tell in that pic, but if that's not carbon, that offset doesn't look right. At least not what I've seen on my bolt guns. What does the chamber look like leading to the throat? Carbon ring or caking? If that barrel isn't clean, try ren's suggestion of a good cleaning. At least to eliminate variables.
I'll be shooting my AR with 1-8 this weekend, and will check out the throat area with the Teslong when I get home.
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Hard to tell in that pic, but if that's not carbon, that offset doesn't look right. At least not what I've seen on my bolt guns. What does the chamber look like leading to the throat? Carbon ring or caking? If that barrel isn't clean, try ren's suggestion of a good cleaning.
Multiple applications of Montana Xtreme copper solvent after I saw all the copper before I ever fired it. Came out clean finally.
This was supposed to be a new barrel fer crissake. Unless PSA is in the practice of using discards for uppers for sale as new.
Starting to suspect this was a QC reject barrel they just dumped in a sale upper.
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Multiple applications of Montana Xtreme copper solvent after I saw all the copper before I ever fired it. Came out clean finally.
This was supposed to be a new barrel fer crissake. Unless PSA is in the practice of using discards for uppers for sale as new.
Starting to suspect this was a QC reject barrel they just dumped in a sale upper.
I still have a NIB PSA upper. I'll check it out. I have another PSA upper, but that's a beater gun, and never shot for accuracy. When zeroing, I was getting what I thought was pretty good accuracy for one of their cheaper/budget upper.
I know for sure Colt and BCM test fires their uppers, but that wouldn't or shouldn't be that many. If PSA is "repackaging" uppers, that's messed up.
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The barrel is marked "freedom' which i gather is their lowest teir product line.
Just wanted a backup, but I desire a rifle that meets or exceeds my meager abilities.
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The barrel is marked "freedom' which i gather is their lowest teir product line.
Just wanted a backup, but I desire a rifle that meets or exceeds my meager abilities.
Yup. At least one of mine is the Freedom. Same, was cheapest they had. I want to say was under $200 on of their sales.
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Found an article describing the same issue it seems.
https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/new-barrel-chamber-off-center-2-lands-going-back-to-neck-pictures.297395/ (https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/new-barrel-chamber-off-center-2-lands-going-back-to-neck-pictures.297395/)
Found others as well about Savage barrels. Cool castings of the chamber and throat.\.
Consensus was the barrel will never shoot right. Cutting the barrel and rechambering is the cure for off center reaming, obviously not going to happen on al el-cheapo PalmettoState barrel.
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I posted a review of the upper on PSA complete with these borescope shots on their product page.
The pics showed up for a day, but no review. Their website, but others should know about sometime crappy products.
Then I get an unrequested email about returning for repair from PSA.
Told them I had already disassembled the upper in order to try and improve accuracy. They will not just look at the barrel, but want me to reassemble the upper to as delivered condition. Like I would save the taper pins and then go through all the disassembly again to freefloat things?
Told them is was not worth my time to go through all that to possibly be told nothing is wrong, or get another barrel that does not shoot for sh!t.
Back to picking out an affordable, accurate barrel.
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White oak, compass lake
Comes down to what affordable and accurate means to the individual.
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Ended up ordering a Ballistic Advantage 16" .223 Wylde SPR Fluted Stainless Steel Midlength AR 15 Barrel
Read and re-read stuff. This barrel will let me reuse most everything. Damn handguards can cost more than a barrel.
A WOA or waiting for a Criterion was more than i wanted to deal with. The wife crucifying me for buying "more gun stuff gets old.
For my purposes, the extreme accuracy would be wasted. I do a lot of open sight shooting and expect a barrel to at least meet my wobble for the day.
A good rest and identical sight picture should yield very close groups.
I have the .308 for longer range and optics when I feel the urge to punch tight groups beyond 200 yards.
I view a .223/5.56mm as a plinker or fun gun. Not exactly serious battle/long range......