2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: H Golf Sport on June 28, 2022, 10:28:49 AM
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So does anyone know what HPD/ Sheriffs pistol qual standards are?
Rumors are that will be the standard for CC permit possibly.
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So does anyone know what HPD/ Sheriffs pistol qual standards are?
Rumors are that will be the standard for CC permit possibly.
Yes…their quals are shoot 50 rounds at 20’ and you must get two hits anywhere on the target. >:D
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So does anyone know what HPD/ Sheriffs pistol qual standards are?
Rumors are that will be the standard for CC permit possibly.
If they do that, they also need to make all officers' training scores publicly available, so we can see that they are able to meet their own standards. Otherwise, they'll fail "civilians" while using different scores for officers.
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Hmm some one watched this morning News!
Anyway, at this point, why worry?
1) Hawaii AG hasn't come out with their "process".. (Was AMAZED to see Rob Bonta in California send out a notice)
2) It seems the Gun Haters wants the legislature to pass new laws that will make the LIST of requirements very ? ( I can see Chris Lee and Karl Rhodes working on this as we speak)
II too was thinking of filling out the form and standing in line to submit. But didn't want to waste time and just possibly be "rejected"
I think i will just wait till "X"..Hopefully it's in my lifetime....
Just my 2 cents!
Aloha!
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FBI qual.
https://applied-ballistics.com/the-fbi-qualification-course/
LE firearms qualifications are usually fairly easy, cause they don't want recruits to fail after all the money and time they pour into them. Most people that take a live-fire CCW course could pass the FBI test
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Yes…their quals are shoot 50 rounds at 20’ and you must get two hits anywhere on the target. >:D
2 out of 50 rounds on target?
that seems fairly easy. unless the target is 1"
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FBI qual.
https://applied-ballistics.com/the-fbi-qualification-course/
LE firearms qualifications are usually fairly easy, cause they don't want recruits to fail after all the money and time they pour into them. Most people that take a live-fire CCW course could pass the FBI test
The Air Force had 2 levels of proficiency when I needed to qualify.
Small Arms qual required 30 rds, max score of 300 if you land 30 in the center ring.
1. Meet the minimum standard. That number was 60%, if I remember right. Might be 70%, but either way was low. That's either a 180 or 210 out of 300 max. 210 can be reached by hitting the 7 ring with all 30 rds -- or getting an average of 7 points per rd.
2. Expert: Small Arms -- a ribbon you're awarded for getting a higher score. I believe it was in the 280 or 290 vicinity.
I scored "expert" the first time I shot during college AFROTC training. No firearms training was provided other than 30 rds of "practice" before 30 rds for the test.
I re-qualified annually while on Mobility Status as "expert", too.
In Nevada, the CCW test required 35 rds fired:
You must score 70% at the following distances from the target...
A total of 30 rounds for 6 shot or larger capacity and 25 rounds for 5 shot capacity must be fired. Firearms with less than a 5 shot capacity will have to be reloaded at each stage to comply with the 5 shot capacity standards.
A minimum score of 70% is required to pass, and shall be indicated on the certificate as “Pass/Fail” only.
- 3 yards 6 rounds No time limit
- 5 yards 12 rounds No time limit
- 7 yards 12 rounds No time limit
Notice you only have to hit the target -- not get any certain score. :thumbsup: Also, to make the 70%, you only need to hit the target 21 out of 30 times. We're talking a humanoid target at 3, 5 and 7 yards -- not 25 yds ala KHSC.
So, yeah. My experience is the tests are similar to those given for a state driver's license. They are all geared toward the bare minimum needed to show proficiency. If you can load, unload, operate and generally aim your firearm, that's mainly what the test requires.
In addition, NV also required 8 hours of classroom education (laws, and so on) with a written test also requires a 70% score to pass.
EDIT:
Looked up the Air Force Small Arms Marksmanship ribbon requirements. They have 1 standard for pistols and 1 for rifles -- M-16/M4. For pistols:
Qualification as expert with the pistol (M-9/M-11) requires 41 hits out of 45 rounds on target,
with at least 25 hits within a 10-inch circle on the torso of the target and six hits within a
six-inch circle on the head of the target.
Last time I qualified, I had to use the Military .38SP revolver. :geekdanc: :rofl:
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FBI qual.
https://applied-ballistics.com/the-fbi-qualification-course/
LE firearms qualifications are usually fairly easy, cause they don't want recruits to fail after all the money and time they pour into them. Most people that take a live-fire CCW course could pass the FBI test
My last USAF duty station I was on "world wide mobility status" So I had to qualify albeit with a rifle yearly.
The only test available was the USAF Security police qualification exam.
Which I passed ( over 90% IIRC) with no PRIOR security police range training. Very similar to the FBI test, but I think we had to be a little faster.
(After all we are operating in a war zone if someone in my skill code was shooting at people),
And I was moving an M16 right to left handed and back
My point is anybody that is reasonably familiar and competent with their gun, these tests for cops are pretty easy.
I do reject them as a necessary step ( ie. expensive, difficult to accomplish) in order to exercise your rights.
I'm sure the slimy bastards are conjuring up some real difficult hoops to jump through.
As an example there are no "official" public pistol or rifle ranges on the Big Island. I kind of suspect that is the same for all the outer islands.
Hard to get range qualified here.
Can't use the police "range" as it is private property and the owners are being polite.
All the cops here do is shoot up a Puu.
We'll see what happens.
:shaka:
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For NV, you also have to take the course from an approved instructor list that's on the Metro PD website. There are like 100 instructors on there. So they make it very easy. I can see HI not doing this. Like how the Maui taser sellers had to fly to Oahu to take a class from a guy who took the same class that they took (mainland Taser Company institutor also taught on Maui). The Maui class by the Taser Company instructor wasn't good enough. It had to be done by the Oahu student of Taser Company instruction who is now teaching classes.
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My friend's coworker on the BI has concealed carry a 9MM for the past 13 years. Never got caught yet and never had to draw it out yet either. He believes in the old adage about 12 and 6.
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Yes…their quals are shoot 50 rounds at 20’ and you must get two hits anywhere on the target. >:D
Wait!?, They have to HIT the target?
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I'm feeling better now. I think I can pass....... :rofl:
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I like the qualifications be hard so that most cops no can pass.
Miculek type hard, 2 shots each in 3 targets at 7 yards in 1 second. LOL.
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We should be very wary on "compromising" on the requirements for the CCW. There should be no requirements other than what it already required to get a license to obtain a firearm. As you know, anti-gunners, will put a foot into the door and over the years they will eventually get their wish, no one gets a CCW and no one gets guns. Think about it, if you can't aim, shoot, and hit the target outside the home, what makes you think you can aim, shoot, and hit the target during a home invasion. The "qualification" will become the new standard to obtain a gun and you can't practice because you don't have a license. Also, what will the "qualification" cost and how often will you need to pass. i.e. every year, every two years, etc.
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My friend's coworker on the BI has concealed carry a 9MM for the past 13 years. Never got caught yet and never had to draw it out yet either. He believes in the old adage about 12 and 6.
I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before. Honolulu ha no idea how many people have guns here in Hawaii.
Where they are at and how they are used.
Cops know. Ever wonder why on the BI if there is a traffic stop, Cop stays in his car, orders you to stay in your car, till he has back up?
There is some variation of the timing of things. And is dependent on the cops "rookie" status.
Wild west here.
:thumbsup:
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Cops know. Ever wonder why on the BI if there is a traffic stop, Cop stays in his car, orders you to stay in your car, till he has back up?
There is some variation of the timing of things. And is dependent on the cops "rookie" status.
Wild west here.
:thumbsup:
Oh I know. Cops NEVER come into my subdivision alone. Always 2 or 3. When I lived in Kailua Oahu, almost always only a single cop would come on a call for something like a suspicious person or vehicle, noise complaint etc. Not here. That is why it takes so long for them to show up. Gotta wait till 2 cops are available, that often takes an hour or two.
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The law doesn’t state anything about pistol quals for CCW. Just states training in safe firearms handling. I don’t think they are supposed to be coming up with any old “requirements”
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The requirements for carry is different from permit to acquire due to this being in the law HRS 134-9:
Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;
To be qualified usually means testing or evaluation, either through a stand alone test or passing a course or meet a standard. It's vague on what type of qualification is required. HRS 134-2 states the exact course or what needs to be covered in a course for a permit to acquire.
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The requirements for carry is different from permit to acquire due to this being in the law HRS 134-9:
Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;
To be qualified usually means testing or evaluation, either through a stand alone test or passing a course or meet a standard. It's vague on what type of qualification is required. HRS 134-2 states the exact course or what needs to be covered in a course for a permit to acquire.
I see. If they are going to make us jump through hoops, this is probably a start of what the hoops will look like.
https://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/law-enforcement-index-page/
Very burdensome, and why many retired LEO can’t/won’t carry
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Range qual
https://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2014/11/LEOSA-Interim-Management-Regulation-102814.pdf
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The AGs already have the plan in place. They will model as much as they after Hawaii's LEOSA process for retired LEO's. Application, training, physicals, and expert marksman qualification. The deadlines for the applicant are tight.
I was one of the people that did verification and processing for Feds trying to process in Hawaii. The AG's office would send verification letters out after hours on a Friday to start the clock running. Agencies had 10 days to verify retirement status, which often had to be run though our DC office. Often times these deadlines were not met and the LEOSA process was stopped.
The next hurdle was the shooting qual, which was a significantly higher standard than any local LEO standard.
Granted, LEOSA was created by Congress so there may be some differences in its application vs Sct ruling, but rest assurred Hawaii did everything in its power to prevent retirement LEOSA including discontinuing giving local officers "Returement Credentials" which immediatelt made every retired state and local officer in Hawaii immediately ineligible to apply or LEOSA. When Hawaii couldnt thwart LEOSA for the active LEOs theybwent out and found some mainland cops whobwere on "vacation" and carrying and had them arrested and prosecuted as an example. Since there is no CCW in Hawaii, the billionaires in the islands have been using active LEOs whonare covered under LEOSA to serve as their armed security. The state does not like this and neither didnthe retired LEOs from Hawaii who couldnt get these returement gigs.
Rest assured lots of goofy ideas are being thought of by the AG and legislators to make sure its a tough process. When I was doing the LEOSA processing we estimated there were less than 7 people from the feds who made it through the initial process. Ohh yah, I believe they had to go through this on a yearly basis.
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I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before. Honolulu ha no idea how many people have guns here in Hawaii.
Where they are at and how they are used.
Cops know. Ever wonder why on the BI if there is a traffic stop, Cop stays in his car, orders you to stay in your car, till he has back up?
There is some variation of the timing of things. And is dependent on the cops "rookie" status.
Wild west here.
:thumbsup:
Oh so that’s why…. I thought they were shoving their donut down their throat before getting out! :geekdanc:
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We can make a good case why LE standards shouldn't apply to CCW holders.
The focus of the LE firearms qualification to take out the threat to save lives in the community and LEOs don't have the option of retreating and leaving it to others to take care of (yea yea I know). If a threat takes out the LE, then there is no one to save the community (yea yea I know). LEOs have to get quick accurate shots off at different distances, including farther distances, and this is reflected on their test which is timed and normally goes from 3 yards to 25 yards. LEs secondary focus is make the standards easy enough so they don't have to fail cadets and waste the money poured into them. LEOSA is grouped in this LE category because the Feds intent was to put more officers on the street to take out threats in the community.
Civilian CCW has a different focus and mindset to lawmakers, ensure the CCW holder is trained enough not to shoot innocent people when shooting at a threat. This is reflected in the firearms qualifications where there is either no time limit or very relaxed time and scoring standards. Failing due to missed shots on the silhouette would be a valid testing standard. This would reflect the focus on not hitting innocents with errant shots. Testing to determine if a CCW holder can defend themselves is irrelevant in this context and differs from the LE intent. Testing at farther distances (25 yards) is not needed as civilians have the option to flee whereas LEOs are required to take out that threat. In addition, seniors and the disabled may not be able to pass LE standards. Accommodations would need to be made for them as they have a equal right to self-defense. The LE recruitment process excludes unfit people so there is no need to accommodate them in LE firearms qualifications.
You notice this difference when comparing testing standards...FBI, HPD, Marshalls, etc vs NRA CCW, and other states testing requirements.
Mandatory training and testing shouldn't be required. I'm not sure if minimal training requirements can be overturned through the text history tradition standard, I'm thinking realistically not. But the most lawmakers should be asking for is a civilian CCW course like NRA CCW or USCCA, and ability to skip the CCW class by taking a CCW live fire test with standards like NRA CCW along with the current NRA Basic Pistol/Hunters Ed course.
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Given the abysmal rate of hits over misses in the law enforcement profession, I'd prefer the CCW standards be set at a reasonable level!
NYPD Officers Fire 84 Shots At Suspect,
Miss 83 Times
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nypd-84-shots-brooklyn_n_55ec4b31e4b093be51bbb978
Remember, this happened in NY, where people couldn't carry legally, and where police are TRAINED to use guns in crowded NYC streets.
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Given the abysmal rate of hits over misses in the law enforcement profession, I'd prefer the CCW standards be set at a reasonable level!
NYPD Officers Fire 84 Shots At Suspect,
Miss 83 Times
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nypd-84-shots-brooklyn_n_55ec4b31e4b093be51bbb978
Remember, this happened in NY, where people couldn't carry legally, and where police are TRAINED to use guns in crowded NYC streets.
Need the BJ Baldwin training. He got 10 for 10.