2aHawaii
General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: eyeeatingfish on July 01, 2022, 09:55:03 PM
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What do you guys think about ballistic helmets? I have a plate carrier with steel plates and in total it was about $400, maybe $500 with accessories added so I wonder about a helmet but they aren't cheap.
The cheapest ballistic helmets seem to start about $300 then go all the way over $1,000 for the nice ones. Some cover a bit of the ears, some don't. Then there is weight too.
The worst part is they all seem to have a 5 year shelf life.
AR500.com was working on a steel ballistic helmet for about $300 with a long (20 year?) shelf life, comparable weight, and actually much smaller than your regular helmets. It is delayed though with an unknown delivery date.
https://www.ar500armor.com/militia-helmet-update
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"The worst part is they all seem to have a 5 year shelf life."
That seems to be an OSHA standard on most equipment. But, funny equipment still works and functions.
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"The worst part is they all seem to have a 5 year shelf life."
That seems to be an OSHA standard on most equipment. But, funny equipment still works and functions.
Some sellers offer a 5 yr, 10 yr, or lifetime warranty "against (manufacturing) defects". Others warrant PERFORMANCE for a specific period.
Better to get one with a performance warranty as they do degrade over time.
For example:
"Here at Hard Head Veterans, we use fibers that do have some of the longest data trails and is why we can warranty our shell performance up to 10 years. "
https://www.hardheadveterans.com/blogs/reviews/ballistic-helmet-warranties-explained
The 3 things to consider are cost, comfort and performance. Not all ballistic helmets are rated for the same protection levels. Warranty type & length should be included in cost analysis, since replacing a helmet more often will increase the cost over time.
Of course, as manufacturing and materials change with new technologies, you might want to pay less for a 5 year warranted helmet so you can upgrade to something newer.
Even if a helmet has exceeded its warranted ballistic performance, it's still perfectly fine for impact protection.
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I'm thinking of using one of those Martha Stewart Crockpots, the 8 quart would fit my head.
On second thought might as well buy the real deal. Her crockpots are expensive.
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I'm thinking of using one of those Martha Stewart Crockpots, the 8 quart would fit my head.
On second thought might as well buy the real deal. Her crockpots are expensive.
I figure you're safe with all the layers upon layers of tin foil you have.
:thumbsup: :geekdanc:
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/ccaabeec75dc0dc2cdba063909f87f8c.jpg)
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Have you ever looked at the stuff around a steel target after shooting it?
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Avoid steel armor and plates at all costs if what you’ll be having them for is potentially needing the, one day. Go ceramic/ poly or ceramic
Yeah I second that. The weight is awful. Get something that's easy to put on when you walk out the door.
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Have you ever looked at the stuff around a steel target after shooting it?
Pretty sure getting shot in the head is still worse than the spalling hitting you
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The “shelf life” is usually just what the manufacturer covers under warranty period. It’ll generally last much longer depending on intensity of usage and if it’s stored in ideal conditions. Pretty much just a regulatory piece of information the manufacturer must legally include somewhere
There are a few youtube videos where a guy gets shot with an old vest on as a "test" and the bullet goes right through.
Of course storage conditions matter. Body armor kept dry and out of sunlight probably going to last longer than something stored in the sun/wet/hot etc.
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What do you guys think about ballistic helmets? I have a plate carrier with steel plates and in total it was about $400, maybe $500 with accessories added so I wonder about a helmet but they aren't cheap.
The cheapest ballistic helmets seem to start about $300 then go all the way over $1,000 for the nice ones. Some cover a bit of the ears, some don't. Then there is weight too.
The worst part is they all seem to have a 5 year shelf life.
AR500.com was working on a steel ballistic helmet for about $300 with a long (20 year?) shelf life, comparable weight, and actually much smaller than your regular helmets. It is delayed though with an unknown delivery date.
https://www.ar500armor.com/militia-helmet-update
What a rabbit hole this is.
Steel plates are bad (IMO). They can generally take more hits, but the spawl is often detrimental, even with an “anti-spawl” coating which doesn’t do much aside from add a little resistance to the plate. What lessens spawl is the curvature and hardness of the plate, to absorb or deflect some of the impact. Inherently, steel will spawl more than ceramic / poly / hybrid. Some plates may be heavier, some may be lighter; totally depends on the materials, thickness, and NIJ rating because generally speaking, higher level plates are heavier or thicker. Not always the case. (Ex: DFNDR Armor vs. RMA Armament) You get what you pay for. If you ever intend to actually use the plates for anything besides donning at the range, I would STRONGLY suggest you change your plates to another material. I digress.
As well as helmets, if it’s ~$300, it is either a cheap knock-off, a bump helmet (not ballistic - often used for climbing/ rescue operations), or you found someone who needs the money. Keep in mind that ballistic helmets are to mitigate damage/ impact/ back face deformation from pistol caliber rounds or defeat them, not rifle rounds. Again, not always the case (rating vs actual NIJ testing). Do not buy non-NIJ certified armor or helmets if you are serious about having them for protection, because testing is not the same as having official certification.
The style or “cut” of the helmet is dependent upon usage (as in high cuts with comms/ headsets/ and other equipment on the head. Most USGI helmets are “mid cut” unless Unit SOP require issue of something else
It is essential that NIJ-certification be had by a company for any kind of serious threat elimination. I’m not *the* expert, but my background in the infantry/ combat arms and training experiences give me some amount of credibility; take this how you will.
As for companies, stay away from anything made out of America or “assembled with American materials”… HHV is one that claims their Kevlar is American, but the helmets are made in China (except newer Gen helmets specifically made in Texas). Very good brands to consider are Team Wendy; Armour Source, LLC (USMIL contracts); Gentex; Avon, etc. You truly do get what you pay for. And never, NEVER expect to be able to reuse plates after multiple hits regardless of materials. Some may last longer, some may not.
Lastly, the 5 year “warranty” or “shelf life” is simply the legally required verbiage that the US Govt mandates companies add in their products’ info because nothing can be guaranteed for certain. If armor is damaged from ballistics usage before the warranty period ends, it is generally replaced by the company (often only with an accompanying police report). However it is definitely advisable to search for armor with a longer warranty period as Flapp mentioned. Many excellent companies warranty their armor at ~10 years. DO NOT skip out on quality due to price unless you’re only testing/ trying armors. That is a big no-no for those who are serious about armor. BUY ONCE, CRY ONCE. But if you’re just looking, this is all suggestive. Take it from someone who has years of experience wearing and training in armor and plate carriers professionally. This is purely friendly and constructive advice. Get whatever armor you can afford, that is designed to be used the Way you need or intend to us it. There’s a major reason why steel armor is not used as issued armor whether in training, combat, or in the field. Never wanna a fellow person screwed over by bad composition, marketing, or misinformation.
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Pretty sure getting shot in the head is still worse than the spalling hitting you
Actually not really. Spawling usually hits the neck/ inner arms/ groin. All those are sensitive areas with major arteries. If a helmet is worth it’s salt, it will stop (designed to slow via layers then causing round to stop or deflect) the round but only up to a certain threat level. Also depends on hit angle, caliber, and properties of the round that hits it.
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Never considered warrantees on helmets. I'm not sure if it's actually an indicator of longevity or liability or business practices. I'm guessing the latter two.
The biggest difference with higher prices helmets is weight reduction. A pound off your head is significant. Better retention systems and padding also make a big difference with comfort and avoiding headaches and neck cramps. It's worth it if you use it all day frequently. If it's just a few hours occasionally, then cheaper options are fine. Good rail systems help with mounting NVGs and lights. Ops core rails are the standard.
I've been pondering what purpose ballistic helmets have for civilian/donestic use as they provide very minimal coverage to the front and side, and bullets hitting those covered areas of the skull have a good chance of deflection anyways. Most of the protection is at the top and back which make sense for shrapnel protection.
A bump helmet might be a better option for domestic use as it's cheaper, lighter, better ventilated, and protects you from thrown objects and impacts.
I got the ops core ballistic and bump helmet. The ballistic one is great with lighter weight, good padding and retention, and standard rails. But it's very expensive - got it with a mil discount. The bump helmet is good but there may be better options. The NVG mount is plastic and built in, so cannot be replaced if worn out. And the cheapo pads suck, but are usable and well ventilated. I tend to use the bump helmet a lot for shooting w GoPro's, nvgs, and use as a safety helmet. Using it keeps you cooler in the sun better than a regular hat.
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Never considered warrantees on helmets. I'm not sure if it's actually an indicator of longevity or liability or business practices. I'm guessing the latter two.
The biggest difference with higher prices helmets is weight reduction. A pound off your head is significant. Better retention systems and padding also make a big difference with comfort and avoiding headaches and neck cramps. It's worth it if you use it all day frequently. If it's just a few hours occasionally, then cheaper options are fine. Good rail systems help with mounting NVGs and lights. Ops core rails are the standard.
I've been pondering what purpose ballistic helmets have for civilian/donestic use as they provide very minimal coverage to the front and side, and bullets hitting those covered areas of the skull have a good chance of deflection anyways. Most of the protection is at the top and back which make sense for shrapnel protection.
A bump helmet might be a better option for domestic use as it's cheaper, lighter, better ventilated, and protects you from thrown objects and impacts.
I got the ops core ballistic and bump helmet. The ballistic one is great with lighter weight, good padding and retention, and standard rails. But it's very expensive - got it with a mil discount. The bump helmet is good but there may be better options. The NVG mount is plastic and built in, so cannot be replaced if worn out. And the cheapo pads suck, but are usable and well ventilated. I tend to use the bump helmet a lot for shooting w GoPro's, nvgs, and use as a safety helmet. Using it keeps you cooler in the sun better than a regular hat.
Excellent points.
I have the cheapest helmet I could find. It's mainly for raising and lowering through a window to use as a decoy!
Works in all the movies! :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
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What a rabbit hole this is.
Steel plates are bad (IMO). They can generally take more hits, but the spawl is often detrimental, even with an “anti-spawl” coating which doesn’t do much aside from add a little resistance to the plate. What lessens spawl is the curvature and hardness of the plate, to absorb or deflect some of the impact. Inherently, steel will spawl more than ceramic / poly / hybrid. Some plates may be heavier, some may be lighter; totally depends on the materials, thickness, and NIJ rating because generally speaking, higher level plates are heavier or thicker. Not always the case. (Ex: DFNDR Armor vs. RMA Armament) You get what you pay for. If you ever intend to actually use the plates for anything besides donning at the range, I would STRONGLY suggest you change your plates to another material. I digress.
As well as helmets, if it’s ~$300, it is either a cheap knock-off, a bump helmet (not ballistic - often used for climbing/ rescue operations), or you found someone who needs the money. Keep in mind that ballistic helmets are to mitigate damage/ impact/ back face deformation from pistol caliber rounds or defeat them, not rifle rounds. Again, not always the case (rating vs actual NIJ testing). Do not buy non-NIJ certified armor or helmets if you are serious about having them for protection, because testing is not the same as having official certification.
The style or “cut” of the helmet is dependent upon usage (as in high cuts with comms/ headsets/ and other equipment on the head. Most USGI helmets are “mid cut” unless Unit SOP require issue of something else
It is essential that NIJ-certification be had by a company for any kind of serious threat elimination. I’m not *the* expert, but my background in the infantry/ combat arms and training experiences give me some amount of credibility; take this how you will.
As for companies, stay away from anything made out of America or “assembled with American materials”… HHV is one that claims their Kevlar is American, but the helmets are made in China (except newer Gen helmets specifically made in Texas). Very good brands to consider are Team Wendy; Armour Source, LLC (USMIL contracts); Gentex; Avon, etc. You truly do get what you pay for. And never, NEVER expect to be able to reuse plates after multiple hits regardless of materials. Some may last longer, some may not.
Lastly, the 5 year “warranty” or “shelf life” is simply the legally required verbiage that the US Govt mandates companies add in their products’ info because nothing can be guaranteed for certain. If armor is damaged from ballistics usage before the warranty period ends, it is generally replaced by the company (often only with an accompanying police report). However it is definitely advisable to search for armor with a longer warranty period as Flapp mentioned. Many excellent companies warranty their armor at ~10 years. DO NOT skip out on quality due to price unless you’re only testing/ trying armors. That is a big no-no for those who are serious about armor. BUY ONCE, CRY ONCE. But if you’re just looking, this is all suggestive. Take it from someone who has years of experience wearing and training in armor and plate carriers professionally. This is purely friendly and constructive advice. Get whatever armor you can afford, that is designed to be used the Way you need or intend to us it. There’s a major reason why steel armor is not used as issued armor whether in training, combat, or in the field. Never wanna a fellow person screwed over by bad composition, marketing, or misinformation.
I have seen a number of videos of them shooting at steel armor with the spalling protection coating and they seem to do quite well. They start to fail after a bunch of hits at which point they start to delaminate and then will throw spalling but again if you are getting hit 30 times in the chest the spalling is probably not your primary risk. To me the weight is the real downside, plates, the carrier, and accessories have that thing probably weighing 25 pounds. If I had to go hiking with that I would definitely invest in the lighter weight stuff.
I will keep an eye out on the manufacture details of helmets if I ever get one. Definitely not buying one made in China.
Was looking at this one. Not set on ar500.com or anything just found it and it seemed affordable. Doesn't say where it is made though which makes me worry
https://www.ar500armor.com/protector-helmet.html
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I have seen a number of videos of them shooting at steel armor with the spalling protection coating and they seem to do quite well. They start to fail after a bunch of hits at which point they start to delaminate and then will throw spalling but again if you are getting hit 30 times in the chest the spalling is probably not your primary risk. To me the weight is the real downside, plates, the carrier, and accessories have that thing probably weighing 25 pounds. If I had to go hiking with that I would definitely invest in the lighter weight stuff.
I will keep an eye out on the manufacture details of helmets if I ever get one. Definitely not buying one made in China.
Was looking at this one. Not set on ar500.com or anything just found it and it seemed affordable. Doesn't say where it is made though which makes me worry
https://www.ar500armor.com/protector-helmet.html
If steel is what you can afford, then it's better than nothing. But if you can afford ceramics or like, then upgrade. Yes, all steel now comes with the coating, but this coating can still fail, which I've seen after only 1 round hitting (if you're unlucky.). I have yet to see ceramic or like failing in the same way.
A pro of steel is that it is much slimmer than ceramic, which I noticed right off the bat after I made the change. But no biggie. My issue with steel is that they are limited to what they can stop compared to ceramics. I've seen multiple videos of your regular XM193 penetrating AR500 steel that claimed it was rated for that caliber. At the same test, it stopped 7.62 all day no problem. So anything over 3000 fsp is where the issue is.
AR500 Armor system was 1 company that failed and even Spartan Armor Systems AR500 steel (which I had) failed against XM193. Both state it can stop 223/556. This was about 4 years ago, so IDK if they have since came out with a better steel. I have seen no vids of ceramics failing what they state that they should stop.
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Problem with ceramics, including plates, is they can crack if you drop them. And those cracks may be hidden by the coatings.
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Problem with ceramics, including plates, is they can crack if you drop them. And those cracks may be hidden by the coatings.
Polyirethane is the way to go. Smash with hammer and still g2g. But u gonna pay $ for em. Shot stop has vids of this.
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Problem with ceramics, including plates, is they can crack if you drop them. And those cracks may be hidden by the coatings.
Inherently a major issue, but a well designed ceramic plate shouldn’t crack. Definitely depends on how hard and where it hit, and what condition it was in when it dropped. But most ceramics are multi paneled that join together if not single panels. So if in good condition and made of quality materials it should be fine. Most drop tests require 3 drops at a certain height on the strike face. There’s a lot of nuance to armor, but there’s a lot of cool stuff to learn too
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If steel is what you can afford, then it's better than nothing. But if you can afford ceramics or like, then upgrade. Yes, all steel now comes with the coating, but this coating can still fail, which I've seen after only 1 round hitting (if you're unlucky.). I have yet to see ceramic or like failing in the same way.
A pro of steel is that it is much slimmer than ceramic, which I noticed right off the bat after I made the change. But no biggie. My issue with steel is that they are limited to what they can stop compared to ceramics. I've seen multiple videos of your regular XM193 penetrating AR500 steel that claimed it was rated for that caliber. At the same test, it stopped 7.62 all day no problem. So anything over 3000 fsp is where the issue is.
AR500 Armor system was 1 company that failed and even Spartan Armor Systems AR500 steel (which I had) failed against XM193. Both state it can stop 223/556. This was about 4 years ago, so IDK if they have since came out with a better steel. I have seen no vids of ceramics failing what they state that they should stop.
I might have a set of SA to shoot soon. Don’t miss range days :hmm:
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Polyirethane is the way to go. Smash with hammer and still g2g. But u gonna pay $ for em. Shot stop has vids of this.
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They also float but they are not as high of a rating as the ceramics.
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They also float but they are not as high of a rating as the ceramics.
Neither is steel.
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Neither is steel.
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A bit harder to spend a grand on plates than $160 or so unless you really wearing them all day
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Ceramics are tougher than people think. Not that you should deliberately be smacking them and dropping them or getting hit by a car while wearing them. Those plates are gonna be on you as a part of you, so treat yourself with care. Much like a car, you take care of it and it will take care of you for many many years.
Even if there’s a crack, a well made ceramic plate should be laminated with strong adhesives and thus the plate will hold together enough that there wont be much significance in performance degradation from a crack.
As for age, it shouldn’t matter so as long as they weren’t horribly abused and neglected. There are Vietnam chicken plates and 90s era ranger plates that stop their intended threats.
100% PE (UHMWPE) plates are not really the way to go. PE is not known to reliably perform well against stuff like M855, so you’d be playing with fire regardless if they’re marketed to stop it. However, certain PE plates may be applicable in certain circumstances or requirements with some caveats.
There’s not much reason to stick with steel these days. It’s a obsolete body armor material with risk and downsides outweighing the benefits. In any case, go for multicurve ceramic plates. The money you don’t spend on steel plates and rifles/accessories that only see the light of day a couple times a year helps invest in ceramics.
As for helmets, just stick to a reputable US manufacture such as Opscore/Gentex, Highcom, custom armor group, revision/galvion, whatever flavor of milsurp ACH/ECH helmet as long as it’s not compromised and you put a upgraded helmet liner than standard ones.
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Shot Stop posted a vid of a few models of plates and they're being wacked with a hammer and a cinder block dropped on them. Then they immediately shot them and they held up.
My Duritium PA was 1 model and it worked as advertised. This model is rated 3+ and does not stop greens, as the manufacturer states it doesn't stop them. However, if you add a trauma pad to this, then it will. The Duritium are PE.
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Shot Stop posted a vid of a few models of plates and they're being wacked with a hammer and a cinder block dropped on them. Then they immediately shot them and they held up.
My Duritium PA was 1 model and it worked as advertised. This model is rated 3+ and does not stop greens, as the manufacturer states it doesn't stop them. However, if you add a trauma pad to this, then it will. The Duritium are PE.
Yeah duritium is just a trademark label for PE. Never looked into whether it’s spectra or dyneema and which grade, but I don’t think it’s anything particularly new.
Not sure what the deal is with the + rating if it doesn’t stop M855, but the “+” nomenclature is very loose and for marketing anyway.
Something to note is that the Shotstop III+ is pretty thin for a UHMWPE plate. To be capable of stopping M855 it needs to be thicker, hence the idea of having a IIIA backer behind it to make up for the reduced UHMWPE layers on the Shotstop plate and therefore adds some weight and thickness to the overall setup. Kinda wasted effort imo.
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Yeah duritium is just a trademark label for PE. Never looked into whether it’s spectra or dyneema and which grade, but I don’t think it’s anything particularly new.
Not sure what the deal is with the + rating if it doesn’t stop M855, but the “+” nomenclature is very loose and for marketing anyway.
Something to note is that the Shotstop III+ is pretty thin for a UHMWPE plate. To be capable of stopping M855 it needs to be thicker, hence the idea of having a IIIA backer behind it to make up for the reduced UHMWPE layers on the Shotstop plate and therefore adds some weight and thickness to the overall setup. Kinda wasted effort imo.
They have a 3++ model that will stop greens. But you're adding like another pound per plate.
For the helmets, Garand Thumb had a vid about the ballistic ones and how with the additional weight of NODs and it's support equipment, neck problems can occur. Of course this is for soldiers who are wearing them for hours and days/weeks/months.
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Ceramics are tougher than people think. Not that you should deliberately be smacking them and dropping them or getting hit by a car while wearing them. Those plates are gonna be on you as a part of you, so treat yourself with care. Much like a car, you take care of it and it will take care of you for many many years.
Even if there’s a crack, a well made ceramic plate should be laminated with strong adhesives and thus the plate will hold together enough that there wont be much significance in performance degradation from a crack.
As for age, it shouldn’t matter so as long as they weren’t horribly abused and neglected. There are Vietnam chicken plates and 90s era ranger plates that stop their intended threats.
100% PE (UHMWPE) plates are not really the way to go. PE is not known to reliably perform well against stuff like M855, so you’d be playing with fire regardless if they’re marketed to stop it. However, certain PE plates may be applicable in certain circumstances or requirements with some caveats.
There’s not much reason to stick with steel these days. It’s a obsolete body armor material with risk and downsides outweighing the benefits. In any case, go for multicurve ceramic plates. The money you don’t spend on steel plates and rifles/accessories that only see the light of day a couple times a year helps invest in ceramics.
As for helmets, just stick to a reputable US manufacture such as Opscore/Gentex, Highcom, custom armor group, revision/galvion, whatever flavor of milsurp ACH/ECH helmet as long as it’s not compromised and you put a upgraded helmet liner than standard ones.
Maybe its because I am a big guy but the weight doesn't bother me much unless I wear it for a longtime.
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Nothing particularly wrong with using steel for weight/endurance training and use ceramic for range/“real” practical purposes, so as long as the training regime is conducted in such a way that it doesn’t destroy your knees on the long term. Training with heavier weights makes lighter equipment (ceramics) feel even lighter and puts less of an impact on endurance.
For actual use as body armor, nah. That’s bad insurance.
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Nothing particularly wrong with using steel for weight/endurance training and use ceramic for range/“real” practical purposes, so as long as the training regime is conducted in such a way that it doesn’t destroy your knees on the long term. Training with heavier weights makes lighter equipment (ceramics) feel even lighter and puts less of an impact on endurance.
For actual use as body armor, nah. That’s bad insurance.
If I were out doing long marches or wearing it while standing all day then I would definitely pony up for the weight savings. However if I just got off my butt and lost 20 pounds I would save more weight than switching from steel to ceramic would save me ;)
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So it’s just the matter of having actual modern armor than something that still puts your life at risk if it were to be employed for personal protection.
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So it’s just the matter of having actual modern armor than something that still puts your life at risk if it were to be employed for personal protection.
I don't think the steel plates put my life at risk when I throw them on if a burglar comes knocking, not unless he is using AP rounds or a 30-06. Certainly it is a much smaller risk than no armor at all.
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I don't think the steel plates put my life at risk when I throw them on if a burglar comes knocking, not unless he is using AP rounds or a 30-06. Certainly it is a much smaller risk than no armor at all.
Burglars don't usually come knocking, FYI.
I'd be amazed if you have the time, forethought or inclination to put body armor on when getting up to investigate a noise you may or may not have heard.
Or, do you sleep in your vest? :geekdanc:
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Burglars don't usually come knocking, FYI.
I'd be amazed if you have the time, forethought or inclination to put body armor on when getting up to investigate a noise you may or may not have heard.
Or, do you sleep in your vest? :geekdanc:
Thats all I sleep in O0
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Thats all I sleep in O0
You need to move to a safer neighborhood.
:geekdanc:
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Thats all I sleep in O0
This brought back memories of MOPP gear in the service. Mission Orientated Protective Posture. Depending on the potential threat or environment we would be in various stages of dress in case of chemical warfare.
Depending on the threat level we would don our chemical suits all the way to full MOPP gear with boots and protective gas mask.
So yeah, depending if the mobs are roaming the streets or not will dictate if I wear my Martha Stewart crockpot helmet and TYPE II HOLSTER :rofl:
Because you know, HPD wants retention for safety....... ::)
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Because you know, HPD wants retention for safety....... ::)
I think Level 2 is better for CCW but thats another conversation ;)
The crock pot idea is interesting though, they are ceramic....
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You need to move to a safer neighborhood.
:geekdanc:
his neighbors need to move to a safer neighborhood
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his neighbors need to move to a safer neighborhood
"EEF was such a quiet boy. Always kept to himself...." :shake:
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Thats all I sleep in O0
(https://i.imgur.com/fDemv2mm.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/fDemv2mm.png)
Protect the valuables. . . ;D