2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: London808 on July 25, 2022, 09:06:20 PM
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Hawaii’s ban on batons, Billy clubs and sticks is unconstitutional.
Heres another lawsuit for Hawaii Firearms Coalition Todd Yukutake.
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If you can carry a gun, you can carry a stick #2Amendment
This lawsuit was filed on Todd’s behalf by Alan Beck and Rick Holcomb. These are the same lawyers that won my first lawsuit 7 years ago.
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2nd amendment right to carry a metal stick.
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(https://c.tenor.com/UwC0sm_xAPYAAAAC/facebook-like.gif)
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It’s my right to own a
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Looking forward to being able to carry these around.
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I can finally get something useful out of those baton lessons ...
(https://i.imgur.com/DNSYWaf.gif)
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Looking forward to being able to carry these around.
wouldn't be included, We are specifically targeting batons.
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wouldn't be included, We are specifically targeting batons.
Are nunchucks included? Technically two batons connected....
But in all seriousness, good job.
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wouldn't be included, We are specifically targeting batons.
Pics shown on RSN's post is not considered a billy club? I am confused.
Telescoping batons?
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Are nunchucks included? Technically two batons connected....
But in all seriousness, good job.
Not illegal
Nunchaku sticks are not per se deadly or dangerous weapons. 64 H. 485, 643 P.2d 546.
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Wonder what would happen if I turned a baseball bat into a baton.
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Not illegal
Nunchaku sticks are not per se deadly or dangerous weapons. 64 H. 485, 643 P.2d 546.
It states in the case notes at the bottom. Same place that says cane swords are not deadly nor dangerous weapons.
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Wonder what would happen if I turned a baseball bat into a baton.
They sell "fish wackers". Some are shaped like a mini baseball bat. Others shaped like half the length of a billy. Both are made from metal and have a soft foam grip with lanyard.
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Todd/Andrew/HIFICO/et al., thanks for using the legal system to attempt to eliminate more of Hawaii's dozens of unconstitutional infringements on the right to keep and bear arms.
Is there a link to where the entire lawsuit can be read?
Is "expandable baton" covered by the general category "baton"?
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https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol03_ch0121-0200d/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.htm
It’s very i portably to read the case notes on laws like this. Oftentimes definitions are changed,modified or clarified in court and by the AG.
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Is "expandable baton" covered by the general category "baton"?
"Billy" as used in this section refers to "policeman’s club" or "truncheon"; a club-like implement designed for purpose of striking or killing fish is not a "billy"; section extends only to weapons deadly or dangerous to people.
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Pics shown on RSN's post is not considered a billy club? I am confused.
It’s a sap or blackjack.
a sap is a leather club filled with a metal rod or bar, lead, sand or other material that can deliver a crippling blow in a close-quarters fight. Typically, a sap is flat and looks a bit like a beavertail. It's made with heavy leather and is surprisingly easy to carry and deploy.
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They sell "fish wackers". Some are shaped like a mini baseball bat. Others shaped like half the length of a billy. Both are made from metal and have a soft foam grip with lanyard.
“a club-like implement designed for purpose of striking or killing fish is not a "billy"; section extends only to weapons deadly or dangerous to people.”
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It states in the case notes at the bottom. Same place that says cane swords are not deadly nor dangerous weapons.
Came knives are not, cane swords are.
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It’s a sap or blackjack.
a sap is a leather club filled with a metal rod or bar, lead, sand or other material that can deliver a crippling blow in a close-quarters fight. Typically, a sap is flat and looks a bit like a beavertail. It's made with heavy leather and is surprisingly easy to carry and deploy.
Yes. That is why I like them so much. I bought those items back in the early 70s from SEC. Just a medium light hit with the sap will break jaw bones knock someone out..
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Wonder what would happen if I turned a baseball bat into a baton.
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how about a baseball cap?
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3PKFMPz/cap1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3GCQpvr/cap2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvhZSTmR/cap3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsWpyYy4/cap4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Is "expandable baton" covered by the general category "baton"?
Is there a consensus that expandable or telescoping batons are included by this thread topic?
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I have a 26 inch expandable baton but I wouldn't carry it. I personally witnessed 3 cops hit a guy with the batons about 6 or 7 times and he didn't go down. They then just piled on him to get him to the ground and handcuffed. While he was face down and 2 cops were putting on the cuffs, the 3rd one hit him in the back of his legs about 4 or 5 times. One hit from the sap to the head would have taken him out, but too much force could easily be fatal.
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I have a 26 inch expandable baton but I wouldn't carry it. I personally witnessed 3 cops hit a guy with the batons about 6 or 7 times and he didn't go down. They then just piled on him to get him to the ground and handcuffed. While he was face down and 2 cops were putting on the cuffs, the 3rd one hit him in the back of his legs about 4 or 5 times. One hit from the sap to the head would have taken him out, but too much force could easily be fatal.
Interesting. i realize they can be heavy to carry, but I like the extended reach and if struck to someones head could be fatal also?
Were the cops hitting only his body and not the head to avoid use of possible deadly force?
I do like the sap. Seems lightweight and easily concealable. Don't have one but may look to purchase.
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I have a 26 inch expandable baton but I wouldn't carry it. I personally witnessed 3 cops hit a guy with the batons about 6 or 7 times and he didn't go down. They then just piled on him to get him to the ground and handcuffed. While he was face down and 2 cops were putting on the cuffs, the 3rd one hit him in the back of his legs about 4 or 5 times. One hit from the sap to the head would have taken him out, but too much force could easily be fatal.
They failed to induce a Charlie Horse. :rofl:
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Is there a consensus that expandable or telescoping batons are included by this thread topic?
From the lawsuit:
50. Plaintiff Yukutake desires to keep and bear the same type of baton/billy policemen are usually issued and an expandable baton [footnote 4] for self-defense and other lawful purposes in public for the purpose of self-defense.
[footnote 4] A type of expandable billy/baton is found here: https://www.budk.com/Expandable-Baton-26-Inch-22397
Case 1:22-cv-00323 Document 1 Filed 07/25/22 Page 14 of 20 PageID #: 14
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Interesting. i realize they can be heavy to carry, but I like the extended reach and if struck to someones head could be fatal also?
Were the cops hitting only his body and not the head to avoid use of possible deadly force?
I do like the sap. Seems lightweight and easily concealable. Don't have one but may look to purchase.
head shots might be fatal. Cops have rules.
Mrs. CMO wanted a collapsable baton. I told her it was useless for her. Like the above said, he's seen grown men not use them effectively. So what would a woman who's weaker do? And for those who don't know, Mrs.CMO is stronger than most females, and even most males. She has a 315 deadlift for reps, trained in wrestling and Muay Thai. When we 1st met, she found out that I wrestled too, so she wanted to wrestle. I told her when I was in high school, I was the lightest guy on the team. So I would have to wrestle the girls and I would beat all of them, even the 275lbs tita. I was 110lbs. Although the tita was double my size, men are generally still stronger, which I was.
So we wrestled and Mrs. CMO was shocked I was kicking her ass. I told her I was only going 50% because I never went full speed on the girls. At the time I was 165lbs.She learned that day that men are generally stronger than women. And Mrs. CMO wasn't some bad wrestler, she was seeded to be near state champ material prior to her injury.
So someone with her strength trying to strike with a baton and not a head shot is a failure. Now imagine a girl who isn't as strong or athletic. I would say a knife is a better option.
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Interesting. i realize they can be heavy to carry, but I like the extended reach and if struck to someones head could be fatal also?
Were the cops hitting only his body and not the head to avoid use of possible deadly force?
I do like the sap. Seems lightweight and easily concealable. Don't have one but may look to purchase.
They are heavy and not easily concealable. I do admit a baton and a knife would be a good combo against a knife attack, but not against a sword. A friend of mine actually called the Kailua PD and asked about carrying his Cold Steel Kopis machete. It had a 19 inch blade. The cop told him there is no blade limit. He asked what about the Cold Steel katana? Cop just repeated no blade limit.
Oh and to answer your question about where they were hitting him, they hit his shoulders and I saw at least one hit the back of his neck and one on the top of his head. I saw the guy the following week. He had a back brace, wrapping on his head, one of those black buckle on brace on one leg and using crutches. He seemed to be in a lot of pain.
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Every tool has it's advantages/disadvantages
Pepper Spray
+ cheap
+ compact
+ easy to use
+ multiple shots
+ debilitating effects last 3 to 5 minutes
+ can be used in many situations
- some people are immune or can fight through it
- blowback in wind or confined spaces
Taser
+ Very effective, immobilization
+ Can be used in confined spaces or windy conditions
+ can be used in many situations
- expensive
- limited range
- one shot
- immobilization lasts only 30 seconds, no long lasting effects
- probes can miss or be blocked
Baton
+ Can be used for different situations
+ Range of effects from blocking to plain compliance to lethal force
+ Relatively cheap
- Must be close to attacker
- Can be taken and used against you
- Requires some strength and agility
- Requires training to be used effectively
- Heavy
Handgun
+ Used at different ranges
+ multiple shots
+ very effective
+ effective in most situations and conditions
- Expensive
- Legal ramifications
- Only useful for deadly force
- Requires training to be used effectively
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Every tool has it's advantages/disadvantages
Pepper Spray
+ cheap
+ compact
+ easy to use
+ multiple shots
+ debilitating effects last 3 to 5 minutes
+ can be used in many situations
- some people are immune or can fight through it
- blowback in wind or confined spaces
Taser
+ Very effective, immobilization
+ Can be used in confined spaces or windy conditions
+ can be used in many situations
- expensive
- limited range
- one shot
- immobilization lasts only 30 seconds, no long lasting effects
- probes can miss or be blocked
Baton
+ Can be used for different situations
+ Range of effects from blocking to plain compliance to lethal force
+ Relatively cheap
- Must be close to attacker
- Can be taken and used against you
- Requires some strength and agility
- Requires training to be used effectively
- Heavy
Handgun
+ Used at different ranges
+ multiple shots
+ very effective
+ effective in most situations and conditions
- Expensive
- Legal ramifications
- Only useful for deadly force
- Requires training to be used effectively
The biggest problem with a baton as far as I can see is that it is seen as a less-than-lethal defensive weapon until you strike someone above the neck -- then it becomes a lethal weapon. Given that, the range of effectiveness diminishes greatly below the neck, so you have this tiny margin of effectiveness that may be illegal to use in most circumstances.
At least with a taser or firearm, the effectiveness isn't a major question mark, and the legality is well defined in most situations.
It reminds me of the advice, "Never draw your weapon to wound or fire a warning shot. If you draw it because you're in fear for your life, then shoot. Otherwise, don't draw."
For the baton, you can easily have the intention of merely defending yourself from a non-lethal fight (no other weapons involved), but then unintentionally inflict critical injuries as the fight escalates. Sort of the opposite of the above advice for guns: bring out the baton to avoid an ass-whooping, but don't use it in a way that makes it lethal.
I've even read using a baton on the knees also constitutes lethal force, but there was no explanation. Maybe because the baton can inflict irreversible damage to the knee? Just guessing.
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Mrs. CMO was shocked I was kicking her ass.
She learned that day that men are generally stronger than women.
Lol! Yes, no substitute for testoterone.
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They are heavy and not easily concealable. I do admit a baton and a knife would be a good combo against a knife attack, but not against a sword. A friend of mine actually called the Kailua PD and asked about carrying his Cold Steel Kopis machete. It had a 19 inch blade. The cop told him there is no blade limit. He asked what about the Cold Steel katana? Cop just repeated no blade limit.
Oh and to answer your question about where they were hitting him, they hit his shoulders and I saw at least one hit the back of his neck and one on the top of his head. I saw the guy the following week. He had a back brace, wrapping on his head, one of those black buckle on brace on one leg and using crutches. He seemed to be in a lot of pain.
Adrenaline or drugs must have kept him resisting and not feeling pain. He must have hired an attorney. lol
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A friend of mine actually called the Kailua PD and asked about carrying his Cold Steel Kopis machete. It had a 19 inch blade. The cop told him there is no blade limit. He asked what about the Cold Steel katana? Cop just repeated no blade limit.
I thought there was a blade length limit carrying outside but maybe I am thinking of folding pocket knives?
So open carry fixed blade swords are legal to carry? Doesn't sound right but I am uninformed.
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Honestly, the laws that these "afraid of their shadow" Hawaii politicians implement is beyond illogical.
Borders on retarded if you ask me.
And don't be surprised pretty soon there will be a law against looks.
Yeah......looks.
Because like they say, looks can kill. :crazy:
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I thought there was a blade length limit carrying outside but maybe I am thinking of folding pocket knives?
So open carry fixed blade swords are legal to carry? Doesn't sound right but I am uninformed.
Other states have knife blade length limits for carrying in public. In most places it's about 4" or less.
Hawaii looks at it more like intended use. If you carry it in public, as long as it doesn't meet the definition of prohibited knives (switchblades and butterfly knives), it can be any length.
In the case of Giltner vs. State, Giltner was found carrying a diver’s knife
with a 6.5-inch-long blade which was later ruled to be legal.
There is no other mention of knife length in Hawaii knife laws; therefore,
it is safe to say that there are no knife length limits in Hawaii.
This assumption means you can own any knife, including swords and other
large knives in Hawaii. Remember, the imitations come when you choose
to carry your knives in public.
https://knifeade.com/hawaii-knife-law/
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Adrenaline or drugs must have kept him resisting and not feeling pain. He must have hired an attorney. lol
He was on drugs. We were working at a house trimming trees and taking a break when he came up to us and asked, who wants to ascend to heaven. I grabbed my cane knife and he approached one of the guys and asked, you want to go to heaven? I was thinking a yes answer would have him trying to kill you. When my guy said no I like it right here, he dropped to his knees and was bowing to my worker. That's when 3 cop cars came up the street and when they stopped by us and got out, he took off running down the street. Two chased him on foot and one with his car. He ran back down toward us when they caught him and I watched them beat his ass from less than 20 ft away. I must praise the HPD response time because it was only about 5 min earlier when I heard a woman scream and yell at him about 7 houses down the road and saw him running out of her yard.
Edit to add
This took place on Kilauea Ave, about 5 blocks above the Kahala Mall. Location probably had a lot to do with the fast response time.
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Other states have knife blade length limits for carrying in public. In most places it's about 4" or less.
Hawaii looks at it more like intended use. If you carry it in public, as long as it doesn't meet the definition of prohibited knives (switchblades and butterfly knives), it can be any length.
https://knifeade.com/hawaii-knife-law/
Thanks! I get the feeling our law makers will have something to say about blade length in public after the 7-11 guy did what he did. Always takes a notorious incident to ruin it for all of us.
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Why mess with a baton when you can carry a sword.
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He was on drugs. We were working at a house trimming trees and taking a break when he came up to us and asked, who wants to ascend to heaven. I grabbed my cane knife and he approached one of the guys and asked, you want to go to heaven? I was thinking a yes answer would have him trying to kill you. When my guy said no I like it right here, he dropped to his knees and was bowing to my worker. That's when 3 cop cars came up the street and when they stopped by us and got out, he took off running down the street. Two chased him on foot and one with his car. He ran back down toward us when they caught him and I watched them beat his ass from less than 20 ft away. I must praise the HPD response time because it was only about 5 min earlier when I heard a woman scream and yell at him about 7 houses down the road and saw him running out of her yard.
Edit to add
This took place on Kilauea Ave, about 5 blocks above the Kahala Mall. Location probably had a lot to do with the fast response time.
Thanks for your interesting story. Pretty crazy how things like this can transpire in front of your very eyes. Good thing he was mento and not a killer.
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Other states have knife blade length limits for carrying in public. In most places it's about 4" or less.
Hawaii looks at it more like intended use. If you carry it in public, as long as it doesn't meet the definition of prohibited knives (switchblades and butterfly knives), it can be any length.
https://knifeade.com/hawaii-knife-law/
Hifico has a butterfly lawsuit pending.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Hifico has a butterfly lawsuit pending.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
it's about time
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/07/28/monarch-butterfly-inches-toward-extinction-what-this-could-mean-hawaii/ (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/07/28/monarch-butterfly-inches-toward-extinction-what-this-could-mean-hawaii/)
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