Post by: oldfart on November 04, 2022, 05:55:37 AM
Mental illness is not the cause of mass school shootings, study finds
"Mental illness is not the cause of mass shootings in academic settings, a new study out of Columbia University says."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/mental-illness-is-not-the-cause-of-mass-school-shootings-study-finds/ar-AA13GZ1s?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=51327b2a4cfd4a39a28ba37ef69eef91
=====================
So therefore, common sense tells me that if the murderers are not mentally ill, then the inanimate objects like guns and knives must be coming to life and doing murder and mayhem all by themselves.
Because sane people don't murder people, it has to be the weapon committing these crimes.
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 04, 2022, 06:12:19 AM
Instead of mental illness it is the cultural, social, and the romanticization of guns and firearms. Namely social media outlets, computer games, and gun ads.
One can see where this is going.
Post by: oldfart on November 04, 2022, 07:26:06 AM
The last paragraph of this article seems to accentuate what the researchers are suggesting is the reason for these mass shootings.=============
Instead of mental illness it is the cultural, social, and the romanticization of guns and firearms. Namely social media outlets, computer games, and gun ads.
One can see where this is going.
yeah I saw that, but their conundrum is that if they claim that movies, tv, games are the problem, then to fix it would involve an infringement on 1A rights.
Those academic scholars would NEVER agree to that!
:rofl:
Post by: oldfart on November 04, 2022, 07:34:55 AM
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward guns. They are ignorant, don't respect guns,=================
nope
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward people. ....they don't respect people.
Post by: aletheuo137 on November 04, 2022, 07:46:59 AM
=================
nope
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward people. ....they don't respect people.
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Post by: oldfart on November 04, 2022, 07:48:45 AM
============
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
Today is NATIONAL COMMON-SENSE DAY
:rofl:
Post by: hk45c on November 04, 2022, 08:25:28 AM
=============
yeah I saw that, but their conundrum is that if they claim that movies, tv, games are the problem, then to fix it would involve an infringement on 1A rights.
Those academic scholars would NEVER agree to that!
:rofl:
The actual article says absolutely nothing about gun violence being related to movies, tv, games or the romanticization of gun violence.
The MSN article says
Quote
“To prevent future mass school shootings, we need to begin to focus on the cultural and social drivers of these types of events, such as the romanticization of guns and gun violence, rather than on individual predictors,” said Girgis.
I don't know where they got that quote from but it is NOT in the actual Journal article. I have access to the full article and it actually states the following.
Quote
In summary, our data suggest several important differences between
mass murders involving academic settings and mass murders
in general: (1) psychotic symptoms, and psychiatric symptoms more
broadly, are present in a minority of mass school murderers but are
more common in such cases than among mass murderers in general
[1]; (2) perpetrators of shootings in academic settings, in particular,
take their own lives almost half the time, a higher rate than seen
than among mass murderers in general [1];and (3) semi-and/
or fully automatic weapons are more frequently used by mass shooters in
academic settings than by mass shooters in general. Taken together,
these data suggest that mass shooters in academic settings may
not be trying to evade capture but may view their attack as a final
act driven by a variety of motives.
And this is the actual point of the article. It makes absolutely no claims about the romanticization of guns and gun violence. Rather it suggests that their analysis of the data could be using to help law enforcement when engaging an active shooter.
Quote
These findings may have important implications for policymakers and influence law enforcement responses to active shooter incidents involving school, college, and university settings.
Post by: oldfart on November 04, 2022, 09:08:22 AM
Quote
“To prevent future mass school shootings, we need to begin to focus on the cultural and social drivers of these types of events, such as the romanticization of guns and gun violence, rather than on individual predictors,” said Girgis.
I don't know where they got that quote from but it is NOT in the actual Journal article.
=============
Girgiis is one of the authors of the actual article.
===========
In summary, our data suggest several important differences between
mass murders involving academic settings and mass murders
in general: (1) psychotic symptoms, and psychiatric symptoms more
broadly, are present in a minority of mass school murderers but are
more common in such cases than among mass murderers in general
[1]; (2) perpetrators of shootings in academic settings, in particular,
take their own lives almost half the time, a higher rate than seen
than among mass murderers in general
===================
Interesting that you have access to the actual research paper which is behind a pay wall.
Regardless, going back to the original intent of this post, the author of the article is clearly trying to persuade the casual reader that mass shooters are NOT mental cases.
Your own quote indicates suicide in half the cases.
That sounds pretty mental to me.
Today is national common-sense day.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 04, 2022, 09:33:22 AM
Post by: aletheuo137 on November 04, 2022, 09:59:29 AM
To prevent mass shootings, let law abiding people be armed. Active shootings happen majority of the time in gun free zones.Today is national common-sense day.
But the power okoles don't get it!
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Post by: QUIETShooter on November 04, 2022, 10:11:18 AM
Today is national common-sense day.
But the power okoles don't get it!
Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
All 100% okole. With no common sense. When informed of National Common-Sense Day, they ask: "What Dat????" :rofl:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 04, 2022, 10:18:49 AM
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward guns. They are ignorant, don't respect guns, are not trained to use them, don't understand their value as a tool or their danger. The problem is when people want guns because it makes them more powerful or cool. Why do some people think they need to pose with a firearm? In the military they issue weapons before they teach muzzle discipline and that can be scary.
You were in the military?
Because weapons are not issued to everyone to keep. Most rifles are stored in an armory and temporarily checked out for training classes. The Navy doesn't do much live fire, and the Coast Guard does none.
Quote
In Navy Recruit Training, recruits fire a computerized simulator of the M-16 rifle. This simulatorhttps://www.liveabout.com/military-weapons-3357161
is almost like firing the real thing (the computerized rifle even kicks and makes a loud noise).
The Coast Guard is the only branch that does not fire the M-16 rifle during basic training.
I was an Air Force Officer. In ROTC field training, I qualified "Expert" in small arms, but we were never issued a personal weapon. Same applies to active duty, only if you are an SP or deployed to a hostile area will you be issued a weapon to keep. Even then, most US bases only let SPs keep their side arms. Long guns are stored in the armory and checked out when starting the duty day.
Your entire comment is BS. I think you're projecting your own ignorance onto everyone else.
The REAL PROBLEM is people like you who think they already know everything and are unwilling/unable to learn new things.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 04, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
To prevent mass shootings, let law abiding people be armed. Active shootings happen majority of the time in gun free zones.
It's impossible to prevent mass murder. Having armed students and faculty can mitigate the carnage by stopping the attack in progress, but it's hard to be at the right place and time to stop him/her before the first injury is inflicted.
According to the article, only 63.2% -- or less than 2/3 -- of mass murders at schools, colleges and universities involved firearms. That means those who are quick to blame guns are ignoring all the other means used to kill. Why is that?
I notice rhayder was super-quick to focus on guns and the attitudes of gun owners. :wacko:
Post by: hk45c on November 04, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
The MSN article says
Quote
“To prevent future mass school shootings, we need to begin to focus on the cultural and social drivers of these types of events, such as the romanticization of guns and gun violence, rather than on individual predictors,” said Girgis.
I don't know where they got that quote from but it is NOT in the actual Journal article.
=============
Girgiis is one of the authors of the actual article.
===========
In summary, our data suggest several important differences between
mass murders involving academic settings and mass murders
in general: (1) psychotic symptoms, and psychiatric symptoms more
broadly, are present in a minority of mass school murderers but are
more common in such cases than among mass murderers in general
[1]; (2) perpetrators of shootings in academic settings, in particular,
take their own lives almost half the time, a higher rate than seen
than among mass murderers in general
===================
Interesting that you have access to the actual research paper which is behind a pay wall.
Regardless, going back to the original intent of this post, the author of the article is clearly trying to persuade the casual reader that mass shooters are NOT mental cases.
Your own quote indicates suicide in half the cases.
That sounds pretty mental to me.
Today is national common-sense day.
Why would I lie about having access to the article ? I have access because I work at UH. I can send you a copy if you are interested. I realize Girgiis is one of the authors but the journal article never says anything like the quote. They might have interviewed him but they don't say that so it implies that was the conclusion of the journal article which it was NOT.
When you say "Your own quote indicates suicide in half the cases....." I feel like you think I was defending the article or the Journal entry. I was not. I was just pointing out the the MSN reporter misrepresented the journal article. I personally feel that saying someone that commits mass murder and then commits suicide is NOT mentally disturbed is complete hogwash. You have to be a considerably off your rocker to do either of those two things. Sane people don't commit mass murder and suicide is at the very least a sign of depression unless the individual is sick, painful or near death in which case it's somewhat different.
Post by: Rocky on November 04, 2022, 12:24:53 PM
=============Started listing the anti-gun actors, actresses and directors who do films using or with firearms but gave up listing the 200+ conspirators. :wtf:
yeah I saw that, but their conundrum is that if they claim that movies, tv, games are the problem, then to fix it would involve an infringement on 1A rights.
Those academic scholars would NEVER agree to that!
:rofl:
Post by: groveler on November 04, 2022, 01:00:11 PM
=================BINGO!
nope
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward people. ....they don't respect people.
I despise Democrats, Moslems, and others, but they are people and have rights, I respect that.
I would not commit an act of violence against them just because of their beliefs, race, creed, religion et al.
That doesn't mean I'd interfere with someone that is doing me a favor.
:thumbsup:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 04, 2022, 04:59:59 PM
Someone suffering from depression over a loss is technically experiencing mental illness.
Quote
Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in emotion, thinking or behaviorhttps://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness
(or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems
functioning in social, work or family activities.
- Nearly one in five (19%) U.S. adults experience some form of mental illness.
- One in 24 (4.1%) has a serious mental illness*.
- One in 12 (8.5%) has a diagnosable substance use disorder.
Mental illness is treatable. The vast majority of individuals with mental illness continue to
function in their daily lives.
I think the article is focusing too much on the word "illness" as if mass murderers who have no history or diagnosis of mental illness makes them normal.
As we all learned, criminals often plead "not guilty by reason of temporary insanity" to avoid a life sentence or the death penalty. By definition, mental illness can be temporary ("is treatable") and can therefore be a one-off reaction to some event. Still rises to "mental illness".
As for school shootings, without prior diagnoses or therapy and/or evidence of mental illness from family and friends, it's kind of hard to diagnose them after they are DEAD.
Rational, healthy-minded people do not commit suicide unless you want to count the exception of assisted suicide. Unless these school killers are terminally ill, it's impossible to include assisted suicides in this discussion.
Too many students have committed suicide for the same reasons the killers give for murder -- bullying, failed romances, being "weird" and having no friends, etc. The difference is the killer took a few students with him on the way.
Too many people in academia like to excuse aberrant psychological behavior because they know it's impossible to identify and treat everyone that commits violence BEFORE they do it. Denying they were mentally ill at all absolves them and their profession of doing what they often say they can -- diagnose and treat people with mental illness before it causes someone to get hurt. So much easier to say the killers are mentally okay making them undiagnosable.
Post by: stangzilla on November 04, 2022, 05:10:29 PM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 04, 2022, 05:12:38 PM
here in Hawaii, if you see a psychologist or psychiatrist, that opens the door for HPD to deny you your 2A rights
Unless you are no longer affected by whatever it is you really were never affected by....and you have a doctor's note to prove it. :crazy:
Post by: stangzilla on November 04, 2022, 05:18:35 PM
Unless you are no longer affected by whatever it is you really were never affected by....and you have a doctor's note to prove it. :crazy:
true, but what a hassle that is
especially when HPD can deny you for any reason they feel like. they don't have to justify the reason for the red flag. you could be seeing a psychologist for biting your nails or having nightmares, or getting below a 3.0 GPA over 30 years ago in high school. if HPD feels like red flagging you, then you are red flagged
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 04, 2022, 05:24:19 PM
"Mental illness" is broad, vague and can encompass pretty much everyone at some point in their lives.Good thing theres already a lawsuit about depression (military home sick).
Someone suffering from depression over a loss is technically experiencing mental illness.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness
I think the article is focusing too much on the word "illness" as if mass murderers who have no history or diagnosis of mental illness makes them normal.
As we all learned, criminals often plead "not guilty by reason of temporary insanity" to avoid a life sentence or the death penalty. By definition, mental illness can be temporary ("is treatable") and can therefore be a one-off reaction to some event. Still rises to "mental illness".
As for school shootings, without prior diagnoses or therapy and/or evidence of mental illness from family and friends, it's kind of hard to diagnose them after they are DEAD.
Rational, healthy-minded people do not commit suicide unless you want to count the exception of assisted suicide. Unless these school killers are terminally ill, it's impossible to include assisted suicides in this discussion.
Too many students have committed suicide for the same reasons the killers give for murder -- bullying, failed romances, being "weird" and having no friends, etc. The difference is the killer took a few students with him on the way.
Too many people in academia like to excuse aberrant psychological behavior because they know it's impossible to identify and treat everyone that commits violence BEFORE they do it. Denying they were mentally ill at all absolves them and their profession of doing what they often say they can -- diagnose and treat people with mental illness before it causes someone to get hurt. So much easier to say the killers are mentally okay making them undiagnosable.
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Post by: oldfart on November 05, 2022, 10:23:51 AM
true, but what a hassle that is===========
especially when HPD can deny you for any reason they feel like. they don't have to justify the reason for the red flag. you could be seeing a psychologist for biting your nails or having nightmares, or getting below a 3.0 GPA over 30 years ago in high school. if HPD feels like red flagging you, then you are red flagged
I seem to notice a lot of cops in the news here who needed red flags
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 05, 2022, 11:38:11 AM
===========
I seem to notice a lot of cops in the news here who needed red flags
I would venture as far as to say that some cops would be denied permits to acquire if they were regular civilians like us.
My opinion, of course.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 05, 2022, 11:44:53 AM
I would venture as far as to say that some cops would be denied permits to acquire if they were regular civilians like us.
My opinion, of course.
Cops get a pass on most gun laws, including:
Quote
State and county law enforcement officers who are not convicted of an offense involving abusehttps://www.guntrustlawyer.com/hawaii-hi-what-nfa-firearms-ca/
of a family or household member under 709-906 can own and possess
- Silencers and
- Machine Guns and
- Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS) and
- Short Barreled Rifles (SBR).
Post by: oldfart on November 05, 2022, 11:56:54 AM
Cops get a pass on most gun laws, including:https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/hawaii-hi-what-nfa-firearms-ca/==============
hmmm, strange-----
I know/knew a LOT of cops here and nobody had a machine gun or silencer.
And those guys I knew would LOVE to have them.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 05, 2022, 12:00:19 PM
==============
hmmm, strange-----
I know/knew a LOT of cops here and nobody had a machine gun or silencer.
And those guys I knew would LOVE to have them.
That's from a 3rd party site -- may or may not be accurate.
I do know a LGS received a shipment of suppressors for military and LE use. They were worried the shipment would not arrive in time for training on another island.
Cops can have standard capacity pistol mags, so obviously they are granted exceptions over the general public.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 05, 2022, 12:11:58 PM
That's from a 3rd party site -- may or may not be accurate.But are ffl's in HI under HI law exempt?
I do know a LGS received a shipment of suppressors for military and LE use. They were worried the shipment would not arrive in time for training on another island.
Cops can have standard capacity pistol mags, so obviously they are granted exceptions over the general public.
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Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 05, 2022, 12:42:51 PM
But are ffl's in HI under HI law exempt?
If they are transferring ownership to an exempt person, they are covered for "possession". FFLs taking ownership personally, probably not.
Better to ask an FFL dealer directly.
I have a C&R FFL, and I am exempt from a number of HI laws, including shipping restrictions and permitting requirements for acquisition of handguns.
Post by: macsak on November 05, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
some can obtain NFA items for sale or rent...
But are ffl's in HI under HI law exempt?
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Post by: Kalikikopa on November 05, 2022, 04:21:12 PM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 05, 2022, 06:40:21 PM
I will admit you lost me at the url "msn.com" so I didn't reference the article. From what I have read in the replies, I question how does anyone who thinks "guns are cool, so i think i'll go shoot and kill a bunch of people in a school then have the cops kill me." not considered someone with serious mental issues. Whether they think gun violence is cool or repulsive is irrelevant. The fact they in their minds they believe it is ok to kill a bunch of people before killing themselves is the problem.
Some people believe what they are told even when common sense should tell them otherwise.
Post by: RSN172 on November 05, 2022, 07:56:02 PM
=================I respect people and I obey the law.....but
The real problem is the attitude some people have toward people. ....they don't respect people.
See, I have the same reasoning as the anti 2A folks.
Post by: Wchiro on November 07, 2022, 02:22:02 AM
Post by: Stack_Xchange on November 07, 2022, 03:20:35 AM
Mass shootings tend to occur in three categories, random, pseudo-random, and targeted. Random is when the victims have virtually no association with each other (e.g. Mandalay Bay). Pseudo-random is when the victims have a loose association with one another (i.e. gang shootings, school shootings). Targeted is when the victims closely know each other (e.g. Tree of Life synagogue). Mental illnesses could be a factor in all three, but the range and intensity of the illness can vary in each case, whereas the setting and victims can better describe the impetus of the shooting. Also, there was recent research that described mass shootings in which the shooter commits suicide is likely closer to a "murder suicide" than any type of shooting. Violent videogames, rock music, and even jazz music, have been used to explain crime before--AFAIK, all of those theories were proven false.
The media loves to cover mass shootings because of the sensationalistic sheer volume of victims; decry goes the public, politicians with slacktivist legislation, and scholars follow the grant money. However, it's my opinion (and it's not shared by all) that analyzing mass shootings by number of victims as a descriptive statistic is not the correct approach.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 07, 2022, 08:55:54 AM
The cause of mass shootings (or even crime in general) is difficult to analyze, because there are so many approaches (phys/psy/sociological). When I look at mass shootings, I look at it as a theory of victimization, because I have found that it is the most consistent in diagnosing its pathology. On a side note, theories of victimization are often attacked as "victim shaming" which is not the case. All victim shaming are theories of victimization, whereas not all theories of victimization are victim shaming.
Mass shootings tend to occur in three categories, random, pseudo-random, and targeted. Random is when the victims have virtually no association with each other (e.g. Mandalay Bay). Pseudo-random is when the victims have a loose association with one another (i.e. gang shootings, school shootings). Targeted is when the victims closely know each other (e.g. Tree of Life synagogue). Mental illnesses could be a factor in all three, but the range and intensity of the illness can vary in each case, whereas the setting and victims can better describe the impetus of the shooting. Also, there was recent research that described mass shootings in which the shooter commits suicide is likely closer to a "murder suicide" than any type of shooting. Violent videogames, rock music, and even jazz music, have been used to explain crime before--AFAIK, all of those theories were proven false.
The media loves to cover mass shootings because of the sensationalistic sheer volume of victims; decry goes the public, politicians with slacktivist legislation, and scholars follow the grant money. However, it's my opinion (and it's not shared by all) that analyzing mass shootings by number of victims as a descriptive statistic is not the correct approach.
Since you're one to look up the details, look up how many active (no mass) shooters were/are on anti depressants.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 07, 2022, 11:13:14 AM
Since you're one to look up the details, look up how many active (no mass) shooters were/are on anti depressants.
Also, sociopathy is a real. Clinically, it is diagnosed as "antisocial personality disorder."
It's not considered a true mental illness, because it is not inborn and immutable the way psychopathy is defined.
"Sociopaths are individuals whose callous, deceitful behavior is shaped primarily by environmental factors,
such as child abuse or exposure to expedient behavior in others."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/sociopathy
Basically, sociopaths don't follow the rules of society which may or may not include criminal violence. Ted Bundy exhibited these symptoms among others.
"The defining characteristic of the sociopath is a profound lack of conscience—a flaw in the moral compass
that typically steers people away from breaking common rules and toward treating others decently. This
disconnect, however, may be hidden by a charming demeanor. There is both art and science to spotting
sociopathy."
Most people use the terms Sociopath and Psychopath interchangeably, yet they are not the same.
"Sociopathy refers to a pattern of antisocial behaviors and attitudes, including manipulation, deceit,
aggression, and a lack of empathy for others."
Lack of empathy applies to sociopaths and psychopaths alike. In fact, it's the one trait all psychopathic murderers share.
I think many of the school mass shootings involved sociopathy as an underlying cause. It's illegal to possess the guns and ammo on campus, illegal to fire guns at anyone unless in self defense, and illegal to commit murder. Obviously, they either do not know what they are doing is morally wrong (bad upbringing, insane, etc.), or they don't think the rules apply to them (Sociopaths).
We can academically discuss these topics forever (we already have to an extent), but unless this somehow leads to a high degree of success in identifying these types of people BEFORE they kill, it's just that -- academic.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 07, 2022, 11:56:06 AM
, and a lack of empathy for others."
Lack of empathy applies to sociopaths and psychopaths alike. In fact, it's the one trait all psychopathic murderers share.
I saw a YT vid comparing Nick Cruz (MSD shooter) and how he was trying to act crazy vs a real crazy dude who murdered someone. In the vid, you see Cruz sitting alone in the interrogation room and making the gun to the head gesture, biting his wrist (but no blood coming out), etc...
The psychologist said if he really was nutz, he would have drawn blood when biting his wrist. So he was faking this cause he knew the cameras are on.
Then when asked how Cruz felt, he replied. Compare this to real nuts guy when asked how he felt after he killed the person, he didn't understand the question. There was a pause and like he's thinking hard. Prior to being asked this, he answered all questions in detail and quickly. See below example:
1) Why did you kill her.
She stepped on my foot.
2) How did you kill her
With a knife
3) When did you kill her
X day, Y hour
4) How did you feel after
um........huh?
5) Yes, how did you feel after you killed her
ummmm......I don't understand the question
This was just 1 indicator to evaluate a truly crazy person vs someone who's trying to get the insanity plea. Also they stated that if a non nuts person was able to get the insanity plea, the mental hospital isn't much better than prison. In fact, you might just come out turning nuts. Basically what you stated above, lack of empathy, no remorse, basically no feeling that this was wrong.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 07, 2022, 09:41:59 PM
Post by: groveler on November 08, 2022, 06:42:30 AM
Also, sociopathy is a real. Clinically, it is diagnosed as "antisocial personality disorder.""We can academically discuss these topics forever (we already have to an extent), but unless this somehow leads to a high degree of success in identifying these types of people BEFORE they kill, it's just that -- academic."
It's not considered a true mental illness, because it is not inborn and immutable the way psychopathy is defined.
"Sociopaths are individuals whose callous, deceitful behavior is shaped primarily by environmental factors,
such as child abuse or exposure to expedient behavior in others."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/sociopathy
Basically, sociopaths don't follow the rules of society which may or may not include criminal violence. Ted Bundy exhibited these symptoms among others.
"The defining characteristic of the sociopath is a profound lack of conscience—a flaw in the moral compass
that typically steers people away from breaking common rules and toward treating others decently. This
disconnect, however, may be hidden by a charming demeanor. There is both art and science to spotting
sociopathy."
Most people use the terms Sociopath and Psychopath interchangeably, yet they are not the same.
"Sociopathy refers to a pattern of antisocial behaviors and attitudes, including manipulation, deceit,
aggression, and a lack of empathy for others."
Lack of empathy applies to sociopaths and psychopaths alike. In fact, it's the one trait all psychopathic murderers share.
I think many of the school mass shootings involved sociopathy as an underlying cause. It's illegal to possess the guns and ammo on campus, illegal to fire guns at anyone unless in self defense, and illegal to commit murder. Obviously, they either do not know what they are doing is morally wrong (bad upbringing, insane, etc.), or they don't think the rules apply to them (Sociopaths).
We can academically discuss these topics forever (we already have to an extent), but unless this somehow leads to a high degree of success in identifying these types of people BEFORE they kill, it's just that -- academic.
It is all about control.
It is easy to identify people that are "off", by how much they need to control other things. People like Police, Politicians, bureaucrats, administrators, company mid level managers, are good examples of legal nut cases.
Where to worry is the less visible insecure nutcases. Those we know about but can't do anything about. I know people, I won't sell guns to, because they're nuts.
We used to live in a free society and the price of that is, someone will sell or allow that nutcase to get a gun. So it isn't academic, it is a fact of life.
Arm yourselves accordingly.
:popcorn:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 08, 2022, 07:05:38 AM
"We can academically discuss these topics forever (we already have to an extent), but unless this somehow leads to a high degree of success in identifying these types of people BEFORE they kill, it's just that -- academic."
It is all about control.
It is easy to identify people that are "off", by how much they need to control other things. People like Police, Politicians, bureaucrats, administrators, company mid level managers, are good examples of legal nut cases.
Where to worry is the less visible insecure nutcases. Those we know about but can't do anything about. I know people, I won't sell guns to, because they're nuts.
We used to live in a free society and the price of that is, someone will sell or allow that nutcase to get a gun. So it isn't academic, it is a fact of life.
Arm yourselves accordingly.
:popcorn:
"Arm yourselves accordingly."
That's been my main "solution" for mental illness in thread after thread.
If we can't identify the nut-jobs before they commit violence, then there's no way anyone --government, healthcare workers, professional therapists, etc. -- can ever ensure our safety. Not even saying "guarantee safety," just the garden variety 'able to ensure safety to a reasonable degree."
When prevention fails, the only remedy left is to meet violence with violence. It's that simple. Being less than prepared than you ought to be puts you in a great disadvantage when the voices tell the guy sitting next to you on the bus to kill....
Post by: Stack_Xchange on November 08, 2022, 07:54:44 AM
"We can academically discuss these topics forever (we already have to an extent), but unless this somehow leads to a high degree of success in identifying these types of people BEFORE they kill, it's just that -- academic."
It is all about control.
It is easy to identify people that are "off", by how much they need to control other things. People like Police, Politicians, bureaucrats, administrators, company mid level managers, are good examples of legal nut cases.
Where to worry is the less visible insecure nutcases. Those we know about but can't do anything about. I know people, I won't sell guns to, because they're nuts.
We used to live in a free society and the price of that is, someone will sell or allow that nutcase to get a gun. So it isn't academic, it is a fact of life.
Arm yourselves accordingly.
:popcorn:
There have been some wild assertions in this thread, but I think instead of trying to argue, I'd rather just "add to the pot" at this point.
Professions like law-enforcement, the military, law, business, and even medicine are particularly attractive to those with psychopathic traits. Think of a police officer or soldier who "shoots first and asks questions later", or a defense attorney who is defending a serial offender and gloats they got someone off of a murder charge, or a corporate "hostile takeover" specialist who destroys a company for a quick profit, or the infamous "gain of function" research that may have led to the creation of COVID-19.
Not every psychopath is a Dahmer-esque serial killer. That's just stuff for the movies. In fact, neuroscience tells us that people with psychopathic brains are different and that the anti-social classification no longer applies to all those with suspected psychopathy. This is why not every psychopath has ASPD and not everyone with ASPD is a psychopath. Pro-social psychopaths are basically those "serial killers" who engage in "legal killings" and blend in with society, rather than completely rejecting it.
A good friend of mine is a psychologist, and her favorite joke is "1 in 4 Adults has a diagnosable mental illness. Think of your 3 best friends. If it's not them, it's you". The fact is, lots of people have mental illnesses and the fields of psychology and psychiatry are very, very different.
Post by: astroboy on November 08, 2022, 08:12:50 AM
The majority of college students are now female. The majority of grads are also female.
It is time to help boys. The femenization of our educational system has left boys behind.
Girls raised in the same family and conditions as male mass murders do not become murders.
https://youtu.be/Qi1oN1icAYc
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 08, 2022, 11:00:28 AM
Post by: drck1000 on November 08, 2022, 12:32:10 PM
We currently have programs to help girls achieve success in various fields. These programs are working.Nah. They either just kill their SO slowly over time, breaking them down. Or, they hold all of that inside, breeding the next generator of psychopaths. . . I've seen it with one of my best friend's wives. . . truly scary :shake:
The majority of college students are now female. The majority of grads are also female.
It is time to help boys. The femenization of our educational system has left boys behind.
Girls raised in the same family and conditions as male mass murders do not become murders.
SNIP
Post by: oldfart on November 08, 2022, 01:23:23 PM
This is simplistic and wrong.===========
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd7JGbKX/occams.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 08, 2022, 01:56:55 PM
This is simplistic and wrong.
===========
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd7JGbKX/occams.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Yep. Words get in the way. Called word salad. Some people love to hear the noise they make.
Post by: Stack_Xchange on November 08, 2022, 02:55:00 PM
Lets say some people are playing tic-tac-toe in the dirt while others are playing Fisher960 blindfolded. The people playing tic-tac-toe are citing Occam's Razor to argue against proposed moves in Fisher960.
Occam's Razor in this context would mean a preference to the "simpler" checkmate in 1, versus the option of a "complicated" checkmate in 42, provided that a checkmate in 1 is possible. It does not mean "checkmate in 42 is too hard, therefore, a checkmate in less moves must exist".
Post by: groveler on November 08, 2022, 04:45:48 PM
This is simplistic and wrong.You might be right. I'd use a big truck in the middle of a gay pride parade.
But I'm not a sociopath.
Aloha.
:shaka:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 08, 2022, 04:58:01 PM
You obviously do not understand. Long gun? What century is that? You mean a rifle? Have you ever been to the field? Even in Hawaii weapons are assigned, stored in arms room, checked out for duty and ranges or field exercises. When you are in the field you have your weapon at all times. Maybe not in the Air Force. There's a better chance to not have to make drastic changes to re-zero a weapon when they are assigned.
i understand perfectly. "Long gun" is not my term. It's in common use everywhere including Hawaii forms and the ATF. It is a category that includes rifles and shotguns. if you ever bought a firearm, you'd know that.
Have you ever applied for a permit or registered one in Hawaii? I'm starting to think you never owned a gun in your life.
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/minimum-age-gun-sales-and-transfers
(https://i.imgur.com/zxsOoqL.png)
Post by: Kalikikopa on November 08, 2022, 05:32:29 PM
This is simplistic and wrong.
https://spectator.org/mass-shootings-in-gun-free-zones/
"The elimination of gun-free zones may not prove to be the definitive answer, but the evidence indicates that it should be tried. Otherwise we will attempt the same old failed solutions over and over again while expecting a different result. To continue doing that is the very definition of insanity."
Post by: aletheuo137 on November 08, 2022, 06:44:40 PM
This is simplistic and wrong.Doesn't understand "law abiding people"?
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Post by: QUIETShooter on November 08, 2022, 07:41:50 PM
Doesn't understand "law abiding people"?
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Doesn't understand. Period. :rofl: