2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Reloading => Topic started by: Brystont1 on December 27, 2022, 07:18:06 PM
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How much case neck thickness variance do you guys expect from your brass? Like for example if I bought a bunch of brand new Lapua brass should I expect a lot of variance in the thickness of the neck? Im looking into some FL bushing dies (LE Wilson or Redding type S) but I don’t want to have to sort out the brass by case thickness and buy a different bushing for each batch of brass. I’m probably going way over board but just trying to understand the process.
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I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated. That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.
My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots. Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.
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I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated. That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.
My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots. Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.
I think you’re right, I’ll probably just go with an expander mandrel to set neck tension. I’m no F class shooter either, I just like put meat in the freezer haha. Thank you! :shaka:
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I mostly use Lee Collet Neck dies. They have the advantage of evening out the neck thickness and the dies are cheap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOzhm-ILyts
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I don’t measure neck thickness. The tools you will need for that will be pricey, at least my understanding. I go by measuring (more gauging) the thickness by measuring with the bullet seated. That said, my context is PRS “style” shooting. Not F-Class or Benchrest where they are chasing pretty refined/precise specs.
My experience with Lapua brass is they are quite consistent in given lots. I’ve seen some minor variance between lots. Think many neck turn than sorting. Guess it depends on how far you’re willing to go, which often comes with expensive measuring tools. Including measurements of things like powder throws.
How do you know what neck bushing to get for your target neck tension? If you don’t measure neck thickness? And getting proper expander mandrel?
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How do you know what neck bushing to get for your target neck tension? If you don’t measure neck thickness? And getting proper expander mandrel?
I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.
Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.
How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges? How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?
I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.
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heads
I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.
Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.
How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges? How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?
I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.
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I don’t know the neck tension per se. More following recommendations. Like 0.289 bushing for 0.292 loaded round, so -0.003. Then 0.262 mandrels for 0.264, so -0.002. I’ve verified the mandrels via various methods and check the brass (albeit occasionally) with pin gauges.
Personal perspective is primarily about consistency. At least from those I follow their methods. Vice absolutes. I played around with wanting to test different bushing sizes, but I haven’t gone there.
How do you verify neck thickness? With ball micrometers or other gauges? How do you account for the sloping of the case mouth?
I had a response prepped for the Op, but looks like it didn’t post. Anyways, one can and should take things as far as they want to for whatever confidence level. I just don’t have the time or discipline right now to chase the <0.25 MOA from the 0.35ish that I was averaging. At least before things got shut down. I walked the edges of the rabbit hole of finer powder throwers and scales, AMP press or other arbor presses that measure seating pressures. I haven’t gone down that road and decided what is good enough for me, at least right now. If folks want to neck turn, point bullets, etc rock on. Check out interviews from Erik Cortina where he has National and world champ benchrest and F-Class folks and they go in depth on their methods. Some might behind pay walls though. I’m just not at that level to venture that deep.
So you measure a seated round.. Ok I guess that works. I use a ball micrometer. I only measure a few taking thickness measurements of new brass. Taking couple measures by spin and stop. It’s kinda funny how Lapua is not as consistent as before. Peterson on the other hand is very consistent. Anyways after I take measurements, use the proper bushing for that lot, and 21st century mandrel. .002,.003, 0035, or 004. My bolt I use .003. I might try .0035 for my next reload.
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So you measure a seated round.. Ok I guess that works. I use a ball micrometer. I only measure a few taking thickness measurements of new brass. Taking couple measures by spin and stop. It’s kinda funny how Lapua is not as consistent as before. Peterson on the other hand is very consistent. Anyways after I take measurements, use the proper bushing for that lot, and 21st century mandrel. .002,.003, 0035, or 004. My bolt I use .003. I might try .0035 for my next reload.
Dunno if what I am doing is right. Mostly following 2-3 folks who shoot F-Class and Benchrest, but also dabble on PRS and trying to refine process for each. I was getting good results, at least good enough for me. Might change as things progress. Both with my shooting and upgrades to loading equipment and say a dedicated loading room of my own.
I’ve been told similar for Lapua brass. I measured basic stuff from different lots. Consistent within a lot slightly different between lots. I would have to check my notes, but I think 0.0005 to 0.001 differences. But that’s also pushing limits of my calipers. I tried dial calipers for a while, but don’t really anymore.
One test I haven’t done but was wondering is if the mandrels are in 0.0005 increments, to verify the variation in bullets are within that tolerance. I would hope so, but I should test/measure one day.
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The other thing I like to take neck thickness is for the AMP. I know we have the Aztec feature. But before that came out, I use to just use AMPs recommended online annealing settings of different brand brass and specific neck thickness of that brand. I went back doing that way instead of sacrificing a case for Aztec. I cringed when I have to sacrifice a case just to get a setting for each lot I bust open. Honestly I didn’t see any different on brass life with standard vs aztec.
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I find that annealing maintains consistent neck tension
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It really doesn’t take long to do some measurements. This picture a couple months ago. Using a 80$ Sinclair brand ball micrometer.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/scSyfx.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnscSyfxj)
This was .308 Peterson brass.
.013x2=.026+.308= .334
a .330 bushing gives me a 4 thou neck down
I want a 3 thou neck tension, so I use a
21st century .305 expander mandrel
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heads
(https://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/15/90/91/47/parts_10.jpg)
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The other thing I like to take neck thickness is for the AMP. I know we have the Aztec feature. But before that came out, I use to just use AMPs recommended online annealing settings of different brand brass and specific neck thickness of that brand. I went back doing that way instead of sacrificing a case for Aztec. I cringed when I have to sacrifice a case just to get a setting for each lot I bust open. Honestly I didn’t see any different on brass life with standard vs aztec.
AMP Annealer is one of the best investments I’ve made for reloading.
After you measure with ball micrometer, do you neck turn? Or mostly noting data? Being able to measure I think is a good baseline. Neck turning opens a whole bigger can, at least for me.
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AMP Annealer is one of the best investments I’ve made for reloading.
After you measure with ball micrometer, do you neck turn? Or mostly noting data? Being able to measure I think is a good baseline. Neck turning opens a whole bigger can, at least for me.
I do not neck turn.. Ain’t neck turning is for you guys who has custom barrels with tight tolerance chambers? Again, I only measure neck thickness to know what bushing I need. Not all lots the same. Different brands, different thickness. Only neck down a thousands more my desired neck tension, then expand.
I remember you got AMP mark II? I have the older AMP mark I. Had to buy the Aztec separate when it came out. I don’t even use Aztec anymore. Sacrificing a case for each lot? Forget that, just measure neck thickness then look up the number AMP setting.. https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/
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(https://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/15/90/91/47/parts_10.jpg)
I Sooooooooooooooooo want to change the image and leave the labels. :D
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heads
Mouth
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I do not neck turn.. Ain’t neck turning is for you guys who has custom barrels with tight tolerance chambers? Again, I only measure neck thickness to know what bushing I need. Not all lots the same. Different brands, different thickness. Only neck down a thousands more my desired neck tension, then expand.
I remember you got AMP mark II? I have the older AMP mark I. Had to buy the Aztec separate when it came out. I don’t even use Aztec anymore. Sacrificing a case for each lot? Forget that, just measure neck thickness then look up the number AMP setting.. https://www.ampannealing.com/settings/
Yup. I have the version with Aztec. I did the sacrifice for both current batches of .308 and 6.5 cm. I had cases that were messed up from various causes anyways.
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I Sooooooooooooooooo want to change the image and leave the labels. :D
Extractor groove? ??? ;D
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I’ve done many experiments with case neck thickness variations and this is what I’ve found.
I’ve sorted brass within .004-.005” thickness to brass, outside to way outside that variation. This netted a noticeable reduction in uncalled fliers, when all other factors remained consistent.
Things I’ve noted.
Typically, high variance in case neck thickness correlates to variation in case body thickness as well. This is most noticeable in long cases, such as .30-06. Of course, one cannot actually measure below the neck. I conclude this because after firing, the entire case is bent like a banana. I’ve measured the neck in the shorter arc area, and noted this is the thickest part of the entire case. These noticeable “banana” cases are culled immediately.
My theory is that the thicker and uneven neck area does not release the bullet consistently on firing, thus causes fliers. Also the thicker and uneven brass thickness would cause in consistent volume inside the case, causing inconsistent pressure, thus higher ES/SD numbers.
Lapua brass typically has much less variation in thickness.
I’ve done Winchester brass, had to cull almost half of the cases. This brass is much cheaper, and after the cull, the rounds produced very good consistency and accuracy comparable to Lapua cases. Winchester brass usually doesn’t last as long as Lapua cases though. However, even after the cull, one could get much more cases per dollar.
I also have always used the Lee collet neck sizer, after using a Redding body die. Reason being, the neck is sized exactly the same size as the mandrel (on the INSIDE). My conclusion is, this two step sizing and the sorting of low variance neck thickness produces consistent neck tension and bullet release.
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AMP Annealer is one of the best investments I’ve made for reloading.
After you measure with ball micrometer, do you neck turn? Or mostly noting data? Being able to measure I think is a good baseline. Neck turning opens a whole bigger can, at least for me.
I’ve played with neck turning, but don’t believe the results match the effort. Like noted in my post above, the case walls are still left uneven and thick. This causes inconsistent case volume and pressure.
At shorter ranges like 100 or 200 yards, velocity difference won’t make much of a difference, but at longer ranges you’d want the best ES/SD numbers as you can get.
Easier to measure and cull bad cases.
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I’ve done many experiments with case neck thickness variations and this is what I’ve found.
I’ve sorted brass within .004-.005” thickness to brass, outside to way outside that variation. This netted a noticeable reduction in uncalled fliers, when all other factors remained consistent.
Things I’ve noted.
Typically, high variance in case neck thickness correlates to variation in case body thickness as well. This is most noticeable in long cases, such as .30-06. Of course, one cannot actually measure below the neck. I conclude this because after firing, the entire case is bent like a banana. I’ve measured the neck in the shorter arc area, and noted this is the thickest part of the entire case. These noticeable “banana” cases are culled immediately.
My theory is that the thicker and uneven neck area does not release the bullet consistently on firing, thus causes fliers. Also the thicker and uneven brass thickness would cause in consistent volume inside the case, causing inconsistent pressure, thus higher ES/SD numbers.
Lapua brass typically has much less variation in thickness.
I’ve done Winchester brass, had to cull almost half of the cases. This brass is much cheaper, and after the cull, the rounds produced very good consistency and accuracy comparable to Lapua cases. Winchester brass usually doesn’t last as long as Lapua cases though. However, even after the cull, one could get much more cases per dollar.
I also have always used the Lee collet neck sizer, after using a Redding body die. Reason being, the neck is sized exactly the same size as the mandrel (on the INSIDE). My conclusion is, this two step sizing and the sorting of low variance neck thickness produces consistent neck tension and bullet release.
Cool. Sounds like you put a lot of effort into it.
Couple of follow-up questions:
1) For measuring the neck thickness, did you measure at a specific point below say the case mouth? Or otherwise account for variation along the length of the neck?
2) For the Redding body die, were you using the expander ball? Or did you find or fashion a mandrel with the die? Or expander mandrel as a separate step?
The questions around #1, and different ways folks were doing it (as well as having heated arguments) on that made me wary of venturing down that path. I know many who do it, but seems like many have their own way of measuring, sorting, etc for consistency.
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Cool. Sounds like you put a lot of effort into it.
Couple of follow-up questions:
1) For measuring the neck thickness, did you measure at a specific point below say the case mouth? Or otherwise account for variation along the length of the neck?
2) For the Redding body die, were you using the expander ball? Or did you find or fashion a mandrel with the die? Or expander mandrel as a separate step?
The questions around #1, and different ways folks were doing it (as well as having heated arguments) on that made me wary of venturing down that path. I know many who do it, but seems like many have their own way of measuring, sorting, etc for consistency.
I use an expander mandrel as a separate step. I don’t use the expander ball. So after I size with Redding F/L type s die with my proper bushing without expander ball. Then I run the cases through the expander mandrel. All steps through the Forster press. Pretty fast once all your dies is set initially. I do how ever dip just a little of the neck in reddings neck dry lube before I size. It should also be enough on the expanding work too.
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I’ve done many experiments with case neck thickness variations and this is what I’ve found.
I’ve sorted brass within .004-.005” thickness to brass, outside to way outside that variation. This netted a noticeable reduction in uncalled fliers, when all other factors remained consistent.
Things I’ve noted.
Typically, high variance in case neck thickness correlates to variation in case body thickness as well. This is most noticeable in long cases, such as .30-06. Of course, one cannot actually measure below the neck. I conclude this because after firing, the entire case is bent like a banana. I’ve measured the neck in the shorter arc area, and noted this is the thickest part of the entire case. These noticeable “banana” cases are culled immediately.
My theory is that the thicker and uneven neck area does not release the bullet consistently on firing, thus causes fliers. Also the thicker and uneven brass thickness would cause in consistent volume inside the case, causing inconsistent pressure, thus higher ES/SD numbers.
Lapua brass typically has much less variation in thickness.
I’ve done Winchester brass, had to cull almost half of the cases. This brass is much cheaper, and after the cull, the rounds produced very good consistency and accuracy comparable to Lapua cases. Winchester brass usually doesn’t last as long as Lapua cases though. However, even after the cull, one could get much more cases per dollar.
I also have always used the Lee collet neck sizer, after using a Redding body die. Reason being, the neck is sized exactly the same size as the mandrel (on the INSIDE). My conclusion is, this two step sizing and the sorting of low variance neck thickness produces consistent neck tension and bullet release.
Interesting on the Lee collet dies. I think I’m gonna try a .308 set.
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I use an expander mandrel as a separate step. I don’t use the expander ball. So after I size with Redding F/L type s die with my proper bushing without expander ball. Then I run the cases through the expander mandrel. All steps through the Forster press. Pretty fast once all your dies is set initially. I do how ever dip just a little of the neck in reddings neck dry lube before I size. It should also be enough on the expanding work too.
I currently do expander as a separate step too. I’ll be transitioning from the PMA expander mandrel (fixed at -0.0015) to 21st Century mandrels that I bought many months ago but never got around to using before the shut down.
The SAC dies can combine the expander mandrel with the sizing, but another aspect that I haven’t gotten around to trying. The SAC expander mandrels were out of stock for a while. They came back in stock shortly before the shutdown, so I never got to use them either. Once I get that dialed in, that would remove a step. But like you said, with the Co-Ax, super easy to go between steps.
Dry lube is a whole other topic, and another that I was experimenting with as well.
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I currently do expander as a separate step too. I’ll be transitioning from the PMA expander mandrel (fixed at -0.0015) to 21st Century mandrels that I bought many months ago but never got around to using before the shut down.
The SAC dies can combine the expander mandrel with the sizing, but another aspect that I haven’t gotten around to trying. The SAC expander mandrels were out of stock for a while. They came back in stock shortly before the shutdown, so I never got to use them either. Once I get that dialed in, that would remove a step. But like you said, with the Co-Ax, super easy to go between steps.
Dry lube is a whole other topic, and another that I was experimenting with as well.
loob...
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I’ve played with neck turning, but don’t believe the results match the effort. Like noted in my post above, the case walls are still left uneven and thick. This causes inconsistent case volume and pressure.
At shorter ranges like 100 or 200 yards, velocity difference won’t make much of a difference, but at longer ranges you’d want the best ES/SD numbers as you can get.
Easier to measure and cull bad cases.
Ya. I never got into neck turning. The “gurus” I’m following and helping me now only neck turn for F-Class and Benchrest. A couple tried it for their PRS rifles, but the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze. Sounds like similar for you.
Maybe I’ll get to shooting paper at 600-800 yards, but currently only on steel. I was getting “ok” results at 1000-1100ish on steel with .308, but chasing better.
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Cool. Sounds like you put a lot of effort into it.
Couple of follow-up questions:
1) For measuring the neck thickness, did you measure at a specific point below say the case mouth? Or otherwise account for variation along the length of the neck?
2) For the Redding body die, were you using the expander ball? Or did you find or fashion a mandrel with the die? Or expander mandrel as a separate step?
The questions around #1, and different ways folks were doing it (as well as having heated arguments) on that made me wary of venturing down that path. I know many who do it, but seems like many have their own way of measuring, sorting, etc for consistency.
1) just about halfway down at least in 4 quadrants. Want to know the thick and thin parts. Usually I’ve seen they are either pretty much good or way out of whack. Variations from top to bottom of the neck are negligible in the “good” cases.
2) just the body die. They do not do anything at all to the neck of the case. Just bumping the shoulder back .002-.003”
I’ve tried the ones with the bushings and such. Tried expander ball. Tried running mandrel. Etc. all have given to much mixed results for my liking. Doesn’t make sense to me to attempt to make the case nice and straight, bump the shoulder, then turn around and push or pull an object through the neck possibly messing up the bump or runout.
That the beauty of the collet neck die. The die squeezes around the outside of the neck and presses it to the mandrel. No force is required to pull the mandrel back out. Seating force is extremely uniform since the inside of the case is formed to the exact size of the mandrel all the way around on the inside.
After starting to use this sizing method and case sorting, I gave up on testing runout on the complete rounds, as all of them come out nearly perfect. Didn’t need to check anymore.
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1) just about halfway down at least in 4 quadrants. Want to know the thick and thin parts. Usually I’ve seen they are either pretty much good or way out of whack. Variations from top to bottom of the neck are negligible in the “good” cases.
2) just the body die. They do not do anything at all to the neck of the case. Just bumping the shoulder back .002-.003”
I’ve tried the ones with the bushings and such. Tried expander ball. Tried running mandrel. Etc. all have given to much mixed results for my liking. Doesn’t make sense to me to attempt to make the case nice and straight, bump the shoulder, then turn around and push or pull an object through the neck possibly messing up the bump or runout.
That the beauty of the collet neck die. The die squeezes around the outside of the neck and presses it to the mandrel. No force is required to pull the mandrel back out. Seating force is extremely uniform since the inside of the case is formed to the exact size of the mandrel all the way around on the inside.
After starting to use this sizing method and case sorting, I gave up on testing runout on the complete rounds, as all of them come out nearly perfect. Didn’t need to check anymore.
Ahh, thanks
Seems like the SAC dies are a similar route to similar outcomes. They use a collet to hold either a decapping pin or mandrel. I haven’t tested in a while but runout was very good, results wise. I don’t own the tool to measure but have tested on a buddy’s. Lots of videos of replicating results of low to little runout. Primal Rights being one of the more critical of stuff, at least that I know of.
Maybe I’ll get to different steps like the AMP press in the future. Stuff like better powder thrower and scales are on the list first.
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@drck1000
We go split one and experiment… :D
https://www.fclassproducts.com/autodod
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@drck1000
We go split one and experiment… :D
https://www.fclassproducts.com/autodod
I got $5 on it ;D
A couple of guys that I follow use that for F-Class, but they are in Texas and WaState. And $2500 :o
Next on my list is upgraded scale and powder thrower. I think the setup is in the $1k range, so not that far off from the AutoDOD haha
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I got $5 on it ;D
A couple of guys that I follow use that for F-Class, but they are in Texas and WaState. And $2500 :o
Next on my list is upgraded scale and powder thrower. I think the setup is in the $1k range, so not that far off from the AutoDOD haha
Don’t bother with any of those 1000$ powder throwers.. This is the one! :D
https://www.prometheustoolcorp.com/
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Don’t bother with any of those 1000$ powder throwers.. This is the one! :D
https://www.prometheustoolcorp.com/
Yeah, don’t tempt me. I have thought about it. Albeit short/fleeting thoughts.
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I have 2 V3 auto throws with A&D scales. But in all honesty, I didn’t and don’t see any accuracy or SD difference when I use to run 3 CM lites. The only thing I dislike about my CM’s was that each of em had the screen of death problem. Though, RCBS was quick to send me a replacement. I think the replacement had the fix. But sold all 3 and went on the V3 road. The only thing I dislike about the A&D scales is it’s sensitive to all kind, lighting, little vibrations, electrical interference, even your regular breathing on the scale and you don’t even know it.. 😂
Ok, back on the topic.. sorry :shaka: