Post by: oldfart on June 24, 2023, 02:58:12 AM
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/06/23/police-responding-apparent-barricade-situation-palisades-area/
(https://i.postimg.cc/05LMhF4s/SMH.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Post by: oldfart on June 24, 2023, 05:13:22 AM
Post by: rpoL98 on June 24, 2023, 11:56:32 AM
Post by: changemyoil66 on June 28, 2023, 09:13:29 AM
Post by: rpoL98 on June 28, 2023, 09:26:56 AM
I think on the TV show "SWAT", they wear body cams, front and center. but admittedly, that's fantasy-land make-believe, not always founded in reality.
Police union SHOPO gonna oppose.
Post by: oldfart on June 28, 2023, 09:27:50 AM
So ACLU jumps in very quickly, but for 2a rights they've been silent for decades here.=============
good point
Does anyone know somebody with the ACLU here?
Now would be a GREAT time to pose that question to the ACLU leadership.
Post by: oldfart on June 28, 2023, 09:38:55 AM
==========================
good point
Does anyone know somebody with the ACLU here?
Now would be a GREAT time to pose that question to the ACLU leadership.
I just went to the ACLU Hawaii website.
They list 12 hot topic issues that they are proud to defend.
The third topic on their list is FIRST Amendment rights.
The SECOND amendment is NOT ON THEIR LIST AT ALL.
Post by: ren on June 28, 2023, 10:08:58 AM
=============
I just went to the ACLU Hawaii website.
They list 12 hot topic issues that they are proud to defend.
The third topic on their list is FIRST Amendment rights.
The SECOND amendment is NOT ON THEIR LIST AT ALL.
Gee I wonder where they get their funding from?
Post by: oldfart on June 28, 2023, 10:36:10 AM
Gee I wonder where they get their funding from?==========
I just donated $10.
I wanted to get on their mailing and contact list to see who these people are.
A quick check of their website revealed no actual name to email or call.
Not surprised.
Post by: rpoL98 on July 06, 2023, 11:52:18 AM
something like that.
Post by: changemyoil66 on July 06, 2023, 12:59:41 PM
since the SSD guys don't wear body-cams, i'll bet they put their heads together to get their collective story straight. I'll bet it runs something like: the perp picked up the rifle off the ground, swung it around, and pointed it directly at the officer, so they had no choice but to shoot.
something like that.
Here's a better excuse:
Rifle was jammed and he had to go back to the truck to get a tool. Because it was inoperable, he left it on the table. Jam was cleared after the suspect was shot and rifle taken into custody. SSD officer was taught the charging handle stomp.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 06, 2023, 01:40:58 PM
Here's a better excuse:
Rifle was jammed and he had to go back to the truck to get a tool. Because it was inoperable, he left it on the table. Jam was cleared after the suspect was shot and rifle taken into custody. SSD officer was taught the charging handle stomp.
If the Cop knew the rifle was inoperable, it might negate his justification for shooting.
Just saying.
Post by: QUIETShooter on July 06, 2023, 02:57:57 PM
I'm thinking, will HPD really reveal their results after their investigation?
Because my feeling is, the unattended rifle was a result of poor training. So it ended up with the suspect grabbing the rifle and in doing so was confronted and shot.
It could have easily ended up differently:
Suspect shoots officers
Suspect shoots innocent bystanders
Gunfight where stray bullets injure officers and bystanders
Suspect gets away with rifle.
It all comes down to HPD being derelict in the handling of their weapons and brings up questions on their ability to handle situations like this.
Post by: QUIETShooter on August 29, 2023, 08:22:25 PM
Was anything done and was anyone held accountable?
Or was it all talk and the usual: no walk. :rofl:
Post by: zippz on August 30, 2023, 08:35:16 AM
(https://acclaimmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/neauralizer-featured.png)
Everytime they say well keep you updated means it'll never be updated. There was a story I was interested in, th ATF agent that got shot and killed by a rifle at MPD that was supposed to be updated later. Never was. Found out through other sources it was a suicide. Kinda suspicious he did it at the police department, with a rifle, but whatever. Guess he wanted to prove a point and make sure it was effective.
You can inquire with the police commission, they're probably interested in what happened too.
Post by: changemyoil66 on August 30, 2023, 12:13:31 PM
You can inquire with the police commission, they're probably interested in what happened too.
They probably already know what happened, but choosing to suppress the info.
Post by: macsak on August 30, 2023, 12:22:14 PM
They probably already know what happened, but choosing to suppress the info.
Post by: QUIETShooter on August 30, 2023, 01:33:15 PM
Shhh you're supposed to have forgotten it. That's the way it works. Just look at the light.
(https://acclaimmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/neauralizer-featured.png)
Everytime they say well keep you updated means it'll never be updated. There was a story I was interested in, th ATF agent that got shot and killed by a rifle at MPD that was supposed to be updated later. Never was. Found out through other sources it was a suicide. Kinda suspicious he did it at the police department, with a rifle, but whatever. Guess he wanted to prove a point and make sure it was effective.
You can inquire with the police commission, they're probably interested in what happened too.
I'm debating whether to send the police commission an e-mail asking them for the results of the investigation. But no matter how you look at it, it paints the department in a bad light so I might just piss them off. There's no way they can put a positive spin to it. They know their own messed up.
Would have been better if back then the dept. just owned up to the screw up and made the commitment right then and there to correct firearm handling protocols to prevent it happening again in the future.
I would have respected that. Everyone makes mistakes.
But when you say you will conduct an investigation, then it seems you are not denying the chance that no wrongdoing was done by leaving the rifle unattended.
And if that is the case I for one would like to know what the result of your investigation is.
Post by: zippz on August 30, 2023, 01:46:15 PM
I'm debating whether to send the police commission an e-mail asking them for the results of the investigation. But no matter how you look at it, it paints the department in a bad light so I might just piss them off. There's no way they can put a positive spin to it. They know their own messed up.
Would have been better if back then the dept. just owned up to the screw up and made the commitment right then and there to correct firearm handling protocols to prevent it happening again in the future.
I would have respected that. Everyone makes mistakes.
But when you say you will conduct an investigation, then it seems you are not denying the chance that no wrongdoing was done by leaving the rifle unattended.
And if that is the case I for one would like to know what the result of your investigation is.
You can ask a reporter to follow up
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 30, 2023, 01:46:32 PM
I'm debating whether to send the police commission an e-mail asking them for the results of the investigation. But no matter how you look at it, it paints the department in a bad light so I might just piss them off. There's no way they can put a positive spin to it. They know their own messed up.
Would have been better if back then the dept. just owned up to the screw up and made the commitment right then and there to correct firearm handling protocols to prevent it happening again in the future.
I would have respected that. Everyone makes mistakes.
But when you say you will conduct an investigation, then it seems you are not denying the chance that no wrongdoing was done by leaving the rifle unattended.
And if that is the case I for one would like to know what the result of your investigation is.
FOIA works better. The PC isn't obligated to answer your questions.
Post by: Sodie on September 01, 2023, 05:49:33 PM
FOIA works better. The PC isn't obligated to answer your questions.
FOIA only applies to the federal government. Would have to use Hawaii’s “Sunshine Law” or whatever it is.
https://oip.hawaii.gov/laws-rules-opinions/sunshine-law/ (https://oip.hawaii.gov/laws-rules-opinions/sunshine-law/)
Post by: zippz on September 01, 2023, 06:11:58 PM
FOIA only applies to the federal government. Would have to use Hawaii’s “Sunshine Law” or whatever it is.
https://oip.hawaii.gov/laws-rules-opinions/sunshine-law/ (https://oip.hawaii.gov/laws-rules-opinions/sunshine-law/)
UIPA is Hawaii's term for FOIA.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on September 01, 2023, 09:57:55 PM
UIPA is Hawaii's term for FOIA.
Of course it is different. Can't let an opportunity to reinvent the wheel pass us by!
Post by: dafrtknocker on November 19, 2023, 07:38:02 PM
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-crime/investigation-continues-into-unattended-police-rifle-that-led-to-shooting/
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 19, 2023, 07:56:50 PM
HPD updates public that it is still investigating, still hoping everybody will forget..
https://www.khon2.com/hawaii-crime/investigation-continues-into-unattended-police-rifle-that-led-to-shooting/
Quote
Police said the suspect was shot to death by police after HPD said he grabbed
an officer’s unattended rifle. HPD said the critical incident review would be done
in 90 days.
HPD told the Honolulu Police Commission on Wednesday, Nov. 15, that they
understand they’re past the 90-day mark.
So, the 90 days was not a rule -- more like a guideline?
No accountability for whoever screwed up and left the rifle unattended. So, why would they hold the investigators accountable for missing their deadline?
Seems like the police officers on scene are having difficulty getting their stories to line up. Should have taken all of 30 minutes, including filing the report.
"Whose rifle is that next to the body?
"Mine, sir."
"How did he get his hands on it?"
"Um, I left it here thinking there's nobody but Cops in this house. I never thought the perp would make his way here."
"Be in my office in 1 hour, and you better be thinking up a damned good reason why I shouldn't fire your ass."
Case closed. :thumbsup:
:wacko:
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 19, 2023, 07:59:45 PM
So, the 90 days was not a rule -- more like a guideline?More like
No accountability for whoever screwed up and left the rifle unattended. So, why would they hold the investigators accountable for missing their deadline?
Seems like the police officers on scene are having difficulty getting their stories to line up. Should have taken all of 30 minutes, including filing the report.
"Whose rifle is that next to the body?
"Mine, sir."
"How did he get his hands on it?"
"Um, I left it here thinking there's nobody but Cops in this house. I never thought the perp would make his way here."
"Be in my office in 1 hour, and you better be thinking up a damned good reason why I shouldn't fire your ass."
Case closed.
:wacko:
"Sir, i was taking a shit"
Logan
"Fair enough"
Case closed
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 19, 2023, 08:05:22 PM
More like
"Sir, i was taking a shit"
Logan
"Fair enough"
Case closed
No matter the reason, the Cop was careless. He left his post AND his weapon.
If nature calls, you don't leave the firearm outside the bathroom. Did these people learn nothing from Pulp Fiction?
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 19, 2023, 08:25:02 PM
They definitely need to incorporate new training and weapon protocols when out in the field because that incident is inexcusable.
Eat, sleep, f*ck, sh*t, piss, whatever. That weapon stays with you until it is locked up in the Armory. Once out of the Armory, it stays with you.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 19, 2023, 09:12:44 PM
Yep, they're waiting and hoping that nobody will force them to follow through with the investigation.
They definitely need to incorporate new training and weapon protocols when out in the field because that incident is inexcusable.
Eat, sleep, f*ck, sh*t, piss, whatever. That weapon stays with you until it is locked up in the Armory. Once out of the Armory, it stays with you.
I have a feeling the training was performed.
What they didn't seem to instill was an understanding that anything someone else does with your weapon -- Cop, bystander, perp -- is your responsibility, and you will be charged with a crime if that happens.
Simple. Everything else is just details.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 19, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
No matter the reason, the Cop was careless. He left his post AND his weapon.
If nature calls, you don't leave the firearm outside the bathroom. Did these people learn nothing from Pulp Fiction?
I can't make a final judgement without knowing more information but I generally agree with you here.
An officer might have to put his rifle down briefly to do some task but leaving it unattended for any lengthy period of time is not going to be justifiable in most situations
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 20, 2023, 05:37:02 AM
I can't make a final judgement without knowing more information but I generally agree with you here.Wait, wut? Thanks for playing. Do not pass Go.
An officer might have to put his rifle down briefly to do some task but leaving it unattended for any lengthy period of time is not going to be justifiable in most situations
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 20, 2023, 06:52:27 AM
I can't make a final judgement without knowing more information but I generally agree with you here.
An officer might have to put his rifle down briefly to do some task but leaving it unattended for any lengthy period of time is not going to be justifiable in most situations
So when is it ok to leave a weapon like a firearm unattended? Sorry it's not most situations, it's no situation.
We're talking about a dangerous weapon. If a weapon needs to be "put down" it still needs to be supervised, by another competent team member or the operator still needs to be in the immediate vicinity of that weapon.
I don't know HPD's protocol. But it can't be that different than the military. In the military, even if we had to "put down" our weapon(s), it's either being watched by another team member(s) or the sling is over our shoulder or still attached to a part of our bodies (like when we need to eat, shit, piss, sleep.)
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 20, 2023, 07:50:05 AM
So when is it ok to leave a weapon like a firearm unattended? Sorry it's not most situations, it's no situation.Hes using whataboutism, so when called out he can move goalpost.
We're talking about a dangerous weapon. If a weapon needs to be "put down" it still needs to be supervised, by another competent team member or the operator still needs to be in the immediate vicinity of that weapon.
I don't know HPD's protocol. But it can't be that different than the military. In the military, even if we had to "put down" our weapon(s), it's either being watched by another team member(s) or the sling is over our shoulder or still attached to a part of our bodies (like when we need to eat, shit, piss, sleep.)
Im still waiting for him to read the entire HI red flag law and not just 1 part.
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Post by: ren on November 20, 2023, 09:42:58 AM
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 20, 2023, 10:21:11 AM
maybe the unattended rifle was a non-lethal ... used for "warning shots"?
Maybe it was unoperatable and the user went to the truck to get tools.
Maybe it fell in the tub and got water logged. So the owner went to the truck to get a towel
Maybe the owner had a medical emergency and left it to get some fresh air or wait for EMS
All these would be plausable by 1 person and no opinion would be made yet.
But here's what I'll guess is happening. The reason why the 90 day investigation ETA is going pass is that all SSD in the home are not saying shit, including the person who's rifle it was. And SSD doesn't use bodycams, so the investigation is at a stand still. They are invoking their union rep to speak on their behalf's.
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 20, 2023, 10:29:33 AM
So neva mind what happened that day. Neva mind that an innocent person could have been hurt or killed that day. We da police. We can F*ck up. But not you.
We nomo dat tool da Men in Black use to make yoo guys forget........
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 20, 2023, 11:16:02 AM
In other words, we can f*ck up. But not you law abiding, responsible firearm owners. You guys are potential criminals, according to the laws and by-laws of the banana republik of hawaii.
So neva mind what happened that day. Neva mind that an innocent person could have been hurt or killed that day. We da police. We can F*ck up. But not you.
We nomo dat tool da Men in Black use to make yoo guys forget........
Add in qualified immunity. Which sounds good on paper, but often is abused. Proof is on YT police audit channels.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on November 20, 2023, 01:52:08 PM
it's broad and vague enough that without something it writing (constitution, law, policy, ordinance, etc.) that clearly says what the government employee did was in violation, and also that the person was aware of that guidance, they can do pretty much anything else.
If you've read a few of Hawaii's statutes, you'll notice many laws have exemptions, and law enforcement gets a lot of them.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 20, 2023, 09:37:44 PM
Wait, wut? Thanks for playing. Do not pass Go.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Why do you even bother replying when you said virtually nothing?
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 20, 2023, 09:42:51 PM
So when is it ok to leave a weapon like a firearm unattended? Sorry it's not most situations, it's no situation.
I don't know, maybe if you became seriously wounded?
I cannot really think of any other time you could justify leaving your weapon. I simply stated "most situations" in case there is some situation I did not consider. I put in disclaimers like that because I know that I don't know everything and there could be some situation justifying it that I had not conceived of.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 20, 2023, 09:44:43 PM
Hes using whataboutism, so when called out he can move goalpost.
Im still waiting for him to read the entire HI red flag law and not just 1 part.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
#1 You still use that phrase wrong.
#2 no goalposts moved, see my answer to him.
#3 I did read the whole HI red flag law.
:stopjack:
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 20, 2023, 09:46:43 PM
maybe the unattended rifle was a non-lethal ... used for "warning shots"?
You still wouldn't leave that lying around. a 40mm less-lethal or a shotgun bean bag round could still kill someone if you hit them right. Someone died from a pepperball round at a riot once.
I think pepper spray is about the only non-lethal weapon.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 20, 2023, 10:09:06 PM
In other words, we can f*ck up. But not you law abiding, responsible firearm owners. You guys are potential criminals, according to the laws and by-laws of the banana republik of hawaii.
So neva mind what happened that day. Neva mind that an innocent person could have been hurt or killed that day. We da police. We can F*ck up. But not you.
We nomo dat tool da Men in Black use to make yoo guys forget........
It is a bit more complicated than that. Qualified immunity if a form of protection for government employees who are trying to do their job but make reasonable mistakes.
It can become a double edged because there is wiggle room in the interpretation/application of the concept. So while it can protect employees from honest well intentioned mistakes it can also end up protecting them from civil lawsuits where they should be held liable as well. It is not a perfect concept in application but it is arguably a necessary one because without it, it would be too difficult to perform necessary functions without constantly being sued.
You compare a cop messing up to a member of the public messing up but that isn't really a fair comparison because you aren't going to have a member of the public performing swat duties. We wouldn't have the same protections but we wouldn't be judged by the same standards as swat officers either.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2023, 07:50:35 AM
#1 You still use that phrase wrong.
#2 no goalposts moved, see my answer to him.
#3 I did read the whole HI red flag law.
:stopjack:
Wrong. Still waiting for u to post your constitutional red flag law. The ENTIRE law, not 1 portion (hint hint).
"CMO, I was wrong, I can't find one that allows due process. But I like to move goal post and thank you for thanking me for playing. I understand that I did not pass Go."
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2023, 07:53:30 AM
I don't know, maybe if you became seriously wounded?
I cannot really think of any other time you could justify leaving your weapon. I simply stated "most situations" in case there is some situation I did not consider. I put in disclaimers like that because I know that I don't know everything and there could be some situation justifying it that I had not conceived of.
"disclaimers" so I can't be proved wrong as I don't have a solid opinion that's correct. #whataboutism.
BRB a rifle just fell from the sky and is now unattended. Which means it's OK cause it fell from the sky and landed on the table.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2023, 07:54:27 AM
Why do you even bother replying when you said virtually nothing?
Of course if your opinion it's nothing, but others don't see it that way. Short reply, but makes a point. Thanks for playing. The Hippo's are Hungry, Hungry.
Post by: QUIETShooter on November 21, 2023, 12:30:34 PM
It is a bit more complicated than that. Qualified immunity if a form of protection for government employees who are trying to do their job but make reasonable mistakes.
It can become a double edged because there is wiggle room in the interpretation/application of the concept. So while it can protect employees from honest well intentioned mistakes it can also end up protecting them from civil lawsuits where they should be held liable as well. It is not a perfect concept in application but it is arguably a necessary one because without it, it would be too difficult to perform necessary functions without constantly being sued.
You compare a cop messing up to a member of the public messing up but that isn't really a fair comparison because you aren't going to have a member of the public performing swat duties. We wouldn't have the same protections but we wouldn't be judged by the same standards as swat officers either.
I cannot speak for anyone else but I'm concerned about the investigation into this particular incident.
I'm trusting HPD doesn't try to sweep this under the rug. That's why I said what I said. It is frustrating when it seems they are dilly dallying on the investigation. Immunity (I hope) for these officers does not mean they can be derelict in what I think is basic protocols when handling firearms out in the field.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 21, 2023, 01:06:21 PM
"disclaimers" so I can't be proved wrong as I don't have a solid opinion that's correct. #whataboutism.
BRB a rifle just fell from the sky and is now unattended. Which means it's OK cause it fell from the sky and landed on the table.
Wrong and wrong. Swoosh!
It is not about being proven wrong, it is about being as accurate as possible, you know, like science. Thats why hand sanitizer says kills 99.9% of germs instead of saying kills all germs.
And since you keep getting that word wrong allow me to post the definition for you... again
what·a·bout·ism
[ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm]
NOUN
BRITISH ENGLISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. Also called whataboutery.
"the parliamentary hearing appeared to be an exercise in whataboutism"
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 21, 2023, 01:10:15 PM
I cannot speak for anyone else but I'm concerned about the investigation into this particular incident.
I'm trusting HPD doesn't try to sweep this under the rug. That's why I said what I said. It is frustrating when it seems they are dilly dallying on the investigation. Immunity (I hope) for these officers does not mean they can be derelict in what I think is basic protocols when handling firearms out in the field.
I understand your sentiment, it really should not have happened and some level of discipline should be administered. I won't say what level because I don't know the details of the case.
I would not be worried that the time they are taking means they are trying to sweep it under the rug. Their investigations in general do not move quickly. So many steps to go through to make sure all the contractual obligations are satisfied and appeals are heard because if they miss one step the guy can end up getting his punishment reversed.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Wrong and wrong. Swoosh!
It is not about being proven wrong, it is about being as accurate as possible, you know, like science. Thats why hand sanitizer says kills 99.9% of germs instead of saying kills all germs.
And since you keep getting that word wrong allow me to post the definition for you... again
what·a·bout·ism
[ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm]
NOUN
BRITISH ENGLISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. Also called whataboutery.
"the parliamentary hearing appeared to be an exercise in whataboutism"
Hahhahahaha he actually took time to look it up. OMG. This is almost as good when someone else who was here thought VAERS was a disease.
WWWWRRRROOONNNGGGG. Thanks for playing.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 21, 2023, 01:28:15 PM
Hahhahahaha he actually took time to look it up. OMG. This is almost as good when someone else who was here thought VAERS was a disease.
I looked it up for your benefit. But ignore it if you like, keep on using words improperly and look silly, I don't care.
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 21, 2023, 01:51:19 PM
I looked it up for your benefit. But ignore it if you like, keep on using words improperly and look silly, I don't care.
Hhahahahhah that you think I'm the one who looks silly. Thanks for playing Jean.
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 21, 2023, 09:06:04 PM
Hhahahahhah that you think I'm the one who looks silly. Thanks for playing Jean.
::) :stopjack:
Post by: ren on November 21, 2023, 09:09:10 PM
I looked it up for your benefit. But ignore it if you like, keep on using words improperly and look silly, I don't care.
Hhahahahhah that you think I'm the one who looks silly. Thanks for playing Jean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMXBEj6d7w
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 22, 2023, 08:15:41 AM
::) :stopjack:
Thanks for playing. Ready...."seh-toe"
Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 22, 2023, 04:45:25 PM
Thanks for playing. Ready...."seh-toe"
Okay troll
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 22, 2023, 06:20:12 PM
Okay trollThanks for giving up cause u cant prove anything. Look up any other states red flag to post yet?
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Post by: eyeeatingfish on November 22, 2023, 10:05:26 PM
Thanks for giving up cause u cant prove anything. Look up any other states red flag to post yet?
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I have no need to repeatedly prove something to someone trolling.
:stopjack:
Post by: changemyoil66 on November 23, 2023, 07:09:14 AM
I have no need to repeatedly prove something to someone trolling.U mean no need to be posting the same wrong stuff. I understand.
:stopjack:
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