2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: changemyoil66 on July 06, 2023, 09:25:12 PM
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Honolulu C&C bill 44.
"Knowingly" make a false statement to a c&c official
Incite the making of a false statement to a city official.
Definition of city official seems more of an investigator, not any regular employee or your counselperson.
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Those definitions are quite vague
https://hnldoc.ehawaii.gov/hnldoc/document-download?id=18167
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Too bad there's no law protecting the public from government employees who lie.
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I don't have an issue with it if it worked both ways. Its going to require a person knowingly did it which makes it difficult to prove. If a person says a false statement but believes it's true, then this law would not apply.
I don't think it falls under free speech.
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Actually they should test this law out by making apply to only gov officials for now. They are supposed to set the example and be held to a higher standard
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Actually they should test this law out by making apply to only gov officials for now. They are supposed to set the example and be held to a higher standard
Agree 100% but had to :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I know gov officials: Do as I say, not as I do.
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Rules for thee, but not for me.
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The process is the punishment. An official who doesn't like what you're saying will want you charged. Then you have to hire a lawyer to defend the charge. And when you win, you're out thousands and even maybe lost your job. Then add in this charge will pop on on background checks. I don't believe that a prosecutor will need solid evidence, it will be more political motive.
What's the definition of an investigator? Like if you're talking to your C&C rep and are they now acting like an investigator about a topic you have concerns with? Is lying to a fire inspector or police officer (C&C investigator) not already illegal?
How about submitting testimony for a bill?
I don't trust Waters and the co-sponsor enough to assume this has good intentions, but there's a reason for this bill that they're not saying.
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I don't trust Waters and the co-sponsor enough to assume this has good intentions, but there's a reason for this bill that they're not saying.
Wonder.if this has something to do with the FCKBLM license plate lawsuit. Guy was making things up as it went along.
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what about "i feel intimidated"?
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Things are getting out of hand here. These guys are acting more like dick-tators than lawmakers.
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what about "i feel intimidated"?
Who would they feel intimidated by if the intimidator is wearing camo booney?
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Honolulu C&C bill 44.
"Knowingly" make a false statement to a c&c official
Incite the making of a false statement to a city official.
Definition of city official seems more of an investigator, not any regular employee or your counselperson.
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Where's the ordinace for false statemetns by C&C officials?
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#notarealintimidator
Who would they feel intimidated by if the intimidator is wearing camo booney?
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I dont think this has much to do with the first amendment.
If anything its just going to make c&c officials jobs harder.
"Sorry I cannot speak to you, here is my lawyers number"
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I dont think this has much to do with the first amendment.
If anything its just going to make c&c officials jobs harder.
"Sorry I cannot speak to you, here is my lawyers number"
So, who is the arbiter of what's a false statement? The government employee who doesn't like that you're criticizing them?
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I dont think this has much to do with the first amendment.
That's what they want u to think.
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you need permits to exercise the 1st and 2nd. They should have a "No lying" sign at City Hall and declare it a "truthful place"
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So, who is the arbiter of what's a false statement? The government employee who doesn't like that you're criticizing them?
thats why theyll be talking to peoples lawyers instead of actually getting their jobs done. get it? same thing if the cops or aft comes knocking on your door asking questions.
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thats why theyll be talking to peoples lawyers instead of actually getting their jobs done. get it? same thing if the cops or aft comes knocking on your door asking questions.
No, you don't get it. This is about lying -- willfully and knowingly.
Shouldn't that already be covered under other, more specific laws?
The law is essentially unenforceable. Sometimes people are simply mistaken -- not lying. Difficult fact to prove in court.
Then there are lies of omission, lies of fact, and opinions.
Just more tripwires to punish the law abiding while the corrupt government continues their day-to-day lying.
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No, you don't get it. This is about lying -- willfully and knowingly.
Shouldn't that already be covered under other, more specific laws?
no, and no. I dont see how you can be so confused, the bill is very straightforward.
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no, and no. I dont see how you can be so confused, the bill is very straightforward.
I can't see how you're so confused that you think I'm the one who's confused.
The bill LOOKS straightforward. They almost never are.
Ask why you think they needed this bill in the first place. :wave:
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City Official. Any city employee who, in the normal course of the employee’s
duties and responsibilities, conducts investigations or inspections, or both, to ascertain
compliance with any city ordinance, rule, or regulation.
False Statement. Any statement, in oral, written, printed, or electronic form, that
is incorrect, inaccurate, or not in accordance with truth or fact.
Incite.Influencing another person’s behavior, including by requesting,
encouraging, commanding, compelling, or coercing that person.
All city employees inspect SOMETHING as part of their regular duties, and there's no mention that the false statement or inciting remark has to be relevant to their job.
Plus these self-proclaimed arbiters of truth are the kind of people who think that misgendering someone is some sort of hate crime.
In other words the current language of the bill creates a new class of Super Karens who can drag you into court for telling a lifeguard that men can't get pregnant.
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All city employees inspect SOMETHING as part of their regular duties, and there's no mention that the false statement or inciting remark has to be relevant to their job.
Plus these self-proclaimed arbiters of truth are the kind of people who think that misgendering someone is some sort of hate crime.
In other words the current language of the bill creates a new class of Super Karens who can drag you into court for telling a lifeguard that men can't get pregnant.
Not only that, but quite often administration/clerical workers receive the applications, documentation and other forms that someone might need to submit -- for a liquor license, building renovations, elevator installation and repairs, driver's license, car registration or transfer and so on.
So, the person you are providing potentially false information to might not be the actual inspector, but someone facilitating the inspector's job. Or, if you are accused of lying on an application, that person looking into the case is the investigator, and now anything you submitted to any gov't employee in any office becomes fodder for a criminal charge.
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Like I mentioned earlier: Dey coming like Dick-Tators.
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I always ask, what is the penalty?
"(b) In determining the punishment pursuant to subsection (a), the court shall
consider the impact of the violation on the public health, safety, and welfare.”
Now run that through all of your hypothetical scenarios.You can also infer the impetus of the bill from this.
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I always ask, what is the penalty?
"(b) In determining the punishment pursuant to subsection (a), the court shall
consider the impact of the violation on the public health, safety, and welfare.”
Now run that through all of your hypothetical scenarios.You can also infer the impetus of the bill from this.
They ripped off that part from the gun control laws, since the state can no longer use the 'public safety" balancing test due to Bruen.
#recycling
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They ripped off that part from the gun control laws, since the state can no longer use the 'public safety" balancing test due to Bruen.
#recycling
Some states and judges are still using it.
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How about a bill to imprison politicians for lying to their constituents.
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How about a bill to imprison politicians for lying to their constituents.
Whoo hoo! Lots of lawmakers in jail with sore okoles...... :rofl:
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Whoo hoo! Lots of lawmakers in jail with sore okoles...... :rofl:
A little poetic justice after sticking it to the voters for so long.
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Waters said on the news this morning the bill is in response to people lying about not having monster homes. So lying about their square footage. I mean, it's not like there's google maps which 1 can easily use to run a very early investigation. IIRC it was updated in 2018 or so. Then if a home looks bigger or outdated, then go into bldg permitting that will show sq feet, and then go on site if needed. Also there is a website that one can see square feet of a home. 1 is public like the Oahu Property Tax website and another run by the Beureu of Conveyances, which requires a monthly/annual fee to use. All this can take less than 1 minute to accomplish due to the internet, excluding the visiting on site.
Either way, it's almost impossible to enforce, unless the process is the punishment. Many home owners don't know what exact square feet their homes are. So is Waters saying all this time, the city has been going mainly on verbal?
I don't trust this guy due his big support of sensitive places (Bill 57).
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Waters said on the news this morning the bill is in response to people lying about not having monster homes. So lying about their square footage. I mean, it's not like there's google maps which 1 can easily use to run a very early investigation. IIRC it was updated in 2018 or so. Then if a home looks bigger or outdated, then go into bldg permitting that will show sq feet, and then go on site if needed. Also there is a website that one can see square feet of a home. 1 is public like the Oahu Property Tax website and another run by the Beureu of Conveyances, which requires a monthly/annual fee to use. All this can take less than 1 minute to accomplish due to the internet, excluding the visiting on site.
Either way, it's almost impossible to enforce, unless the process is the punishment. Many home owners don't know what exact square feet their homes are. So is Waters saying all this time, the city has been going mainly on verbal?
I don't trust this guyI due his big support of sensitive places (Bill 57).
Whether it is government, everyday interactions with people, sales, insurance, or everyday services, etc, trust is something that is extremely rare today.
There are very few Boy Scouts out there nowadays. :(
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I foresee that the monster home story is a cover. When you go to HPD Firearms and fill out a form, it's a C&C employee who does the investigation into what you wrote. With all the new gun laws and process recently changed/added, I think this bill has to do with it.
#EVERYTHINGistinofoil
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[snipped]
Either way, it's almost impossible to enforce, unless the process is the punishment. Many home owners don't know what exact square feet their homes are. So is Waters saying all this time, the city has been going mainly on verbal?
I don't trust this guy due his big support of sensitive places (Bill 57).
Impossible to enforce? The zoning and permitting process is probably the one part of government oversight that is 100% enforceable.
Part of the permitting is to submit blueprints of the planned construction. The applicant knows damned well how much square footage is being built.
In order to perform construction, electrical, plumbing and most other major building renovations and repairs, you are required to get permits. This is 100% required if the work is done by a contractor/s. Part of the permit process is their work must be inspected at various stages in order to ensure compliance with building codes and the permit itself. The inspection isn't supposed to be a one-time, end of construction thing. They need to see into the walls to inspect the various parts -- framing, electrical rough-in, and so on. They can't do that if they wait until after the drywall and siding are up. Surely the inspectors can tell when the framing of a home or addition greatly exceeds the allowed measurements. They know how to read a tape measure, i'm sure.
Even if the inspectors fail to inspect along the way, they still have to issue a certificate of inhabitability for new construction. If they read 3,000 sq ft on the permit, and they see a 15,000 sq ft monster home was built, they simply withhold the certificate and file a deviation report. If the builder exceeded the specs in the permit, then the C&C can order the building or improvements be removed.
I've seen a case where someone in another state had a private piece of land -- a small island with no mainland access other than boat. In order to get to it by car, the owner had a bridge built. He apparently didn't bother with the permits, and the local government sent him more than one letter to stop construction until they could work out the building details. After the bridge was completed, a legal battle ensued, and in the end the owner had no choice but to remove the bridge or face huge fines assessed daily until it was gone.
So, these kinds of issues are very enforceable. You can't "sneak" a monster home into existence, and suffer no consequences.
I think what is probably happening is the construction company and/or home owner is lining the pockets of some officials, and the officials never follow through with having the non-permitted homes/additions removed.
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Impossible to enforce?
What I mean is the person can just claim they made a mistake. Errors happen all the time, so to successfully prosecute someone who "knowingly" made a false statement will be difficult. Like they would have to write a book about smoking crack and theres a 4473 marked no for narcotics. Most people don't get books published.
As a firearm example, I've been told by guys who HPD called them to clarify something that was filled out on the app. After talking with the officer, they said "oh yeah, I meant X instead of Y". So honest mistake. But now will this be used to deny or prosecute the person?
Under new HRS, now you must disclose all doctors. Say you left 1 out and all records show u visited the doctor. How far will they go to deny you or prosecute?
If what Waters says is true, then why not make this specific to DPP or like department, instead of every C&C employee who's investigating something. The city will pick and choose who they punish.
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https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/07/11/city-says-it-undercounted-rail-ridership-first-5-days-full-fare-operations/ (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/07/11/city-says-it-undercounted-rail-ridership-first-5-days-full-fare-operations/)
any consequences for City officials lying to the public....
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https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=50490.0 (https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=50490.0)
any consequences for City officials lying to the public....
Reminds me of Bill 57 (Sensitive places) when Augie asked corporate counsel (lawyers) if they can provide a history and traditon for each sensitive place. He was told "we will discuss after in executive session". Augie came back the next hearing and stated corp counsel never got back to him. So instead of lying, they just didn't answer. Compared to SB1230/HB984 (state sensitive places), the AG department made statements that history and tradition was used to craft the bill. Luck for them the reps/senators are state employees and not C&C employees.
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What I mean is the person can just claim they made a mistake. Errors happen all the time, so to successfully prosecute someone who "knowingly" made a false statement will be difficult. Like they would have to write a book about smoking crack and theres a 4473 marked no for narcotics. Most people don't get books published.
As a firearm example, I've been told by guys who HPD called them to clarify something that was filled out on the app. After talking with the officer, they said "oh yeah, I meant X instead of Y". So honest mistake. But now will this be used to deny or prosecute the person?
Under new HRS, now you must disclose all doctors. Say you left 1 out and all records show u visited the doctor. How far will they go to deny you or prosecute?
If what Waters says is true, then why not make this specific to DPP or like department, instead of every C&C employee who's investigating something. The city will pick and choose who they punish.
Prosecution is not the only remedy available. The owner or builder can claim "innocent mistake," but the permit becomes invalid. The construction has to be removed.
Not a difficult legal concept. it is enforceable after the fact, and it doesn't require "intent".
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Prosecution is not the only remedy available. The owner or builder can claim "innocent mistake," but the permit becomes invalid. The construction has to be removed.
Not a difficult legal concept. it is enforceable after the fact, and it doesn't require "intent".
The ordinance states either a fine, jail time, or community service, or a combo of these. So not only can they revoke said application or remove bldg, but see penalties with regard to "knowingly" making a false statement. So we circle back the city saying "how did they not know? All the documents show X sq/ft, but the applicant filled in Y sq/ft on the app" . On how far would they go to make an example of someone. I doubt they will have anything else showing the applicant knowingly made a false statement.
Same goes with after the fact. App had X sq/ft, but plans and building has Y sq/ft. How will the city prove this wasn't a mistake, but intentional? The answer to both is that they can't prove anything short of a recording or book written by the applicant. So this bill is geared at some other area.
I hope I'm wrong, but again, I don't trust the 2 introduces of the bill who is Waters and Tam. This will look to screw gun owners. Chief will deny CCW apps for what he thinks is an intentional false statement, but strike a deal with the CCW applicant. "I tell you what, the city wont pursue charges for this, but you have to wait 1 year before you can apply for a CCW again". Whether they get their guns confiscated later is another story as the new state law now allows 20 years of loss of 2a right for a misdemeanor for a gun related crime.
BRB, buying more tin foil.
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#noteverythingisaboutyou
0The ordinance states either a fine, jail time, or community service, or a combo of these. So not only can they revoke said application or remove bldg, but see penalties with regard to "knowingly" making a false statement. So we circle back the city saying "how did they not know? All the documents show X sq/ft, but the applicant filled in Y sq/ft on the app" . On how far would they go to make an example of someone. I doubt they will have anything else showing the applicant knowingly made a false statement.
Same goes with after the fact. App had X sq/ft, but plans and building has Y sq/ft. How will the city prove this wasn't a mistake, but intentional? The answer to both is that they can't prove anything short of a recording or book written by the applicant. So this bill is geared at some other area.
I hope I'm wrong, but again, I don't trust the 2 introduces of the bill who is Waters and Tam. This will look to screw gun owners. Chief will deny CCW apps for what he thinks is an intentional false statement, but strike a deal with the CCW applicant. "I tell you what, the city wont pursue charges for this, but you have to wait 1 year before you can apply for a CCW again". Whether they get their guns confiscated later is another story as the new state law now allows 20 years of loss of 2a right for a misdemeanor for a gun related crime.
BRB, buying more tin foil.
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#noteverythingisaboutyou
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Bumbai u gonna see
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Bumbai u gonna see
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(https://s.yimg.com/os/en/blogs/sptusmlbexperts/chenquintero.jpg)
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https://www.staradvertiser.com/2023/07/12/hawaii-news/city-suspends-another-reviewer-who-cleared-monster-home-plans/?fbclid=IwAR3NahcOzd0GjO_W5Fe5--aAKgwZsGazyA5uHRk3gwEECkxNV3dt1PdWc_4
Council voted 8 aye. Tupola was absent. Augie and Okimoto aye with reservations.
Everyone who testifed was concerned about false prosecution.
Tam says he introduced this bill because the permits say 1 thing, but when inspectors go on site, they find something else being built. He said "It's a waste of their time" with regard to this. He also said there are a few repeat offenders who do this. So why doesn't the BPP just deny these peoples permits? And it is the inspectors job to go on site as well. IMO, Tam/Waters want this as vague as possible so they can use it for other stuff.
1 testifier runs a building social media page and is concerned about the part about "inciting a false statement". She said what if someone mistook what she post on social media.
Okimoto was concerned this is too broad/vague.
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Yeesh. Like using an RPG for a flyswatter
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Yeesh. Like using an RPG for a flyswatter
My friend who's wife was going thru chemo said that's what it's like. Instead of trying other less harmful methods first. His quote was "you're not only killing the cancer, but everything else as well and the hope is the cancer dies before other stuff." His wife did pull thru and is OK for now, but the quality of life during the process was bad.
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My friend who's wife was going thru chemo said that's what it's like. Instead of trying other less harmful methods first. His quote was "you're not only killing the cancer, but everything else as well and the hope is the cancer dies before other stuff." His wife did pull thru and is OK for now, but the quality of life during the process was bad.
Cancer isn't just a "thing" you can treat. It invades one of more of your tissues -- liver, pancreas, lungs, breasts, brain, lymph nodes, stomach, colon, ... it's an equal opportunity disease that's glad to spread itself wherever it can.
Chemo isn't just a more harmful method. It's most often the only method left to stop cancer that's gone beyond a certain stage of migration. By treating the entire body, you hopefully remove the cancer cells which allows healthy cells to regenerate and replace them. That does take time, but unless it's caught early and able to be removed surgically in a limited area, chemo can either stop the cancer completely or at least slow it down enough to give you more time on Earth.
Whether that time is something you'd welcome given the agony you may be in is another topic.