2aHawaii
General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: xxRENDOGxx on December 07, 2012, 10:47:00 PM
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If you catch somebody breaking into your house at 2:45 in the morning?
It's dark, so you cannot see if the intruder is armed.
Also, you don't know if he's alone.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
repost from LEGAL side
curious for strategic and tactical standpoints...
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Re: S&T, is he aware of you, and if so, if you're armed? That changes things a lot.
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Re: S&T, is he aware of you, and if so, if you're armed? That changes things a lot.
No, he is not aware of you yet. IDK should you be armed?
Say you wake up cause you hear someone opening your side window. Should you arm yourself? Should you arm yourself with a pistol? Or should you arm yourself with a baseball bat?
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I'm always open carrying at home whether on the couch, cooking, or whatever. While sleeping, I have at least one firearm within arm's reach.
If he's not aware of my presence, I'd retreat back to my room, call the police, and tell the dispatcher I'm armed (hopefully giving them a sense of urgency), keep them on the line, and hope for the best. Whenever I have a gun, I turn into somewhat of a complete coward. I'd rather have NO confrontations whatsoever. Still, you play the hand you're dealt, and if someone else forces my hand, well, again, I hope for the best.
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I'd rather have NO confrontations whatsoever. Still, you play the hand you're dealt, and if someone else forces my hand, well, again, I hope for the best.
Agreed. One pull of that trigger is sure enough to open up a whole case of worms, I think.
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I'm always open carrying at home whether on the couch, cooking, or whatever. While sleeping, I have at least one firearm within arm's reach.
If he's not aware of my presence, I'd retreat back to my room, call the police, and tell the dispatcher I'm armed (hopefully giving them a sense of urgency), keep them on the line, and hope for the best. Whenever I have a gun, I turn into somewhat of a complete coward. I'd rather have NO confrontations whatsoever. Still, you play the hand you're dealt, and if someone else forces my hand, well, again, I hope for the best.
We talk about this in our firearm safety classes. And kind of preach the Run, Hide, Fight theory. Most importantly, get the call into 911 asap. You need them to come and put you together if you get shot, stabbed, or overtaken by an individual. It also makes a record. Barricade yourself up in the room, and let the police know where you are, that you are armed, and that you are terrified.
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Since most of the legal aspect is covered in the other thread.
Buy a hi-lumen flashlight (the intruder is moving in the dark so when you make contact light him up and he be disoriented)
Search rooms by turning on your flashlight (aim at ceiling and it'll light up room YMMV)and turning it off once the room is deemed clear and safe.
Never walk around your home with the flashlight constantly on it'll give away your position. Always go on and off
When you finally found the intruder aim at his face......
1. If they run away or run at you then you will know what their intent was....situation will dictate your action from there.
2. If they stand still try talk it out and try to assess the situation (they might be drunk and enter your home thinking it was theirs)
*** During this time keep in mind of your surroundings and watch your 6
3. If they were drunk (loud commands by you and hope they listen) ....situation dictates. Same goes high as a kite person
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I had a full post for this... but I deleted it.
It makes me very worried that I, or my wife could be tried and found guilty of protecting our home and our two babies from an intruder with awful intentions that illegally broke into our home, our sanctity...
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Since most of the legal aspect is covered in the other thread.
Buy a hi-lumen flashlight (the intruder is moving in the dark so when you make contact light him up and he be disoriented)
Search rooms by turning on your flashlight (aim at ceiling and it'll light up room YMMV)and turning it off once the room is deemed clear and safe.
Never walk around your home with the flashlight constantly on it'll give away your position. Always go on and off
When you finally found the intruder aim at his face......
1. If they run away or run at you then you will know what their intent was....situation will dictate your action from there.
2. If they stand still try talk it out and try to assess the situation (they might be drunk and enter your home thinking it was theirs)
*** During this time keep in mind of your surroundings and watch your 6
3. If they were drunk (loud commands by you and hope they listen) ....situation dictates. Same goes high as a kite person
Another note you should have the advantage since its your home turf and he may not know the layout and walking through the dark.
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Step one would be to never be without a light. A decent flashlight should never be more than an arms reach away from any of the spots I'd sit or lay down in my place (including the toilet)!
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I had a full post for this... but I deleted it.
It makes me very worried that I, or my wife could be tried and found guilty of protecting our home and our two babies from an intruder with awful intentions that illegally broke into our home, our sanctity...
Better to be judged by 12 of your peers than carried by 6 of your friends! If it meant that my wife and kids were alive and safe, I would take prison time any day of the week.
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Better to be judged by 12 of your peers than carried by 6 of your friends! If it meant that my wife and kids were alive and safe, I would take prison time any day of the week.
im with you ... of course with all the other training advice, 911 , fear for life , assesment of intent and hope all was done correctly for situation.
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We talk about this in our firearm safety classes. And kind of preach the Run, Hide, Fight theory. Most importantly, get the call into 911 asap. You need them to come and put you together if you get shot, stabbed, or overtaken by an individual. It also makes a record. Barricade yourself up in the room, and let the police know where you are, that you are armed, and that you are terrified.
best advice
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I would say run and hide if at all possible. Shooting someone is the last thing you need in your life as it will cause your entire life to change in an instant and you will never be able to go back again. You can be charged with murder. You can go to jail and then prison for an extend stay. You can lose your home, your car, your family, and your job! Realize this before you think you are a commando and go tearing out of your house with a gun. That being said, if some drugged out/crazy mofo wants to kill you and/or your family, down him and make sure he is down and stays down. Usually one shot (especially out of a handgun) will not down someone... If you have to, reload and keep on pulling until they are down and do not get back up!
As far as calling 911 and not having the ability to protect yourself/only relying on them to come to protect you... Remember, the police have no legal obligation to protect you or help you in any way unless you already have a speical relationship with them (example: previous tro against someone). This is the law of the land as proven by the supreme court of the united states. When you call the police there is no law which says they need to dispatch anyone to come to help you and even if they do, there is no law which says a police officer needs to help you (it is perfectly in that the police officers have a legal right to watch a criminal/crazy person either kill you or kill themselves). Some times the switch board is down or they are just too busy.
Bottom line is that the police "may" protect you, but are under no obligation to do so. Now I'm not saying that a police officer will not eventually come to protect you or that they would not want to. I'm saying to take responsibility for yourself and that if you do not take advantage of your second ammendment right, you should not complain about it later cuz you will be blowing in to the wind at that point. I highly suggest buying a gun and learning how to use it properly!
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If you catch somebody breaking into your house at 2:45 in the morning?
It's dark, so you cannot see if the intruder is armed.
Also, you don't know if he's alone.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
repost from LEGAL side
curious for strategic and tactical standpoints...
Well if there are 2 guys... 1 bullet into the first guy, 2 into the other guy, then 1 more into the first guy. never double tap the first guy if there is more then 1 intruder...
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I had a visit from a intruder back in 2008! I live in salt lake/aliamanu! It took the cops 30 mins to come to my home! I told the dispatcher I'm armed and I'm gonna shoot someone if I have too! I had my family baracaded in one room! I could hear the intruder walking around my house! I was pissed I told the dispatcher theres a police station in kalihi & pearl city and no one is here! U can't rely on the cops! Defend yourself!
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U can't reply on the cops! Defend yourself!
I'm glad you and your family are safe from that encounter. 30 minutes is a pitiful response time for an intruder call, but typical of the pd. They are not legaly responsible to assist, so don't ever depend on it. Grab gun, baracade or run if can, then call the pd just as you did. Good job yo!
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Continuing story....... Girl intruder walking around my home at 3am in the morning talking "this is the house, this is the house"! I wasn't sure if she was with another accomplice or not or just plain crazy! So one cop finally arrives he walks around my property and a girl in her 20s is running out and screaming "don't touch me" running down my street! Cop comes back reports "everything is clear"! So I'm confused i tell the cop "why did u let her go"! Cop replies "what the f_ck u wanted me to do, u wanna do my f_cking job! I told the cop u should of questioned her on what is she doing here or check her ID & see if she lives in the neighborhood or not! I told the cop u should of got her info because what if she comes back and were all dead u have no leads! He tells me "oh let me go find her"! Cop jumps into his car and leaves! Never heard from him & he never came back for a report! So I file a complaint on him!
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Never heard from him & he never came back for a report! So I file a complaint on him!
And you wonder why police take 1/2 hour to get to your house?
I sure as hell would take my sweet ass time to get to someone's house who complains about other LEO's.
If you are the type that needs to call police to deal with trespassers and/or intruders, maybe you shouldn't be complaining about them.
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King-first time calling the cops! Filed the complaint 2 weeks after the incident! Just wondering so your tellin its ok on how the cop responded to my situation! I was upset about the reaction time coming to my home but I was more upset on how spoke to me & my wife! Quote unquote "what the f_ck you u wanted me to do, u wanna do my f_cking job! I have nothing against cops because I have family & friends who r cops! The pizza delivery guy comes to my home faster then the cops!
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Ahhh another government agency where the employees forget where the money for their paychecks come from...wonder if everyone just stopped paying taxes...
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I had an incident where a bum crazy guy was walking around my house trying to get in at around 430 in the morning. I went outside with my pistol equipped with a flashlight. Found the guy sitting in the garage talking to himself saying he lives here. He didn't want to leave even if I had a firearm in plain sight. Called 911 and explained to them of the situation and dispatched there units in the area. When I told the dispatcher I had a firearm, they was by my house in a hart beat. Like, 5 patrol cars, 2 unmarked, and 3 bikes. They didn't know what the situation was so some did the rutine in disarming me and the rest of the cops took care of the guy. After the whole thing, they gave me back my firearm. People say "well, It's not going to happen to me".....When it does, Are you prepared? Lucky I didn't have to use it, but if I have to use it to protect my family and kids, I will.
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57- are you in HI?
"went outside with my pistol" is not legal here, so i am assuming not
i can't imagine what would happen here in that situation
i am thinking SWAT teams taking you down before the crazy guy
I had an incident where a bum crazy guy was walking around my house trying to get in at around 430 in the morning. I went outside with my pistol equipped with a flashlight. Found the guy sitting in the garage talking to himself saying he lives here. He didn't want to leave even if I had a firearm in plain sight. Called 911 and explained to them of the situation and dispatched there units in the area. When I told the dispatcher I had a firearm, they was by my house in a hart beat. Like, 5 patrol cars, 2 unmarked, and 3 bikes. They didn't know what the situation was so some did the rutine in disarming me and the rest of the cops took care of the guy. After the whole thing, they gave me back my firearm. People say "well, It's not going to happen to me".....When it does, Are you prepared? Lucky I didn't have to use it, but if I have to use it to protect my family and kids, I will.
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Call 911. LEAVE THE LINE OPEN, and set the phone down on a table, bed, etc. "Report" everything as it happens so the 911 system records it. Yell, "I have gun! Do not come in!" If the intruder continues, start counting "20 feet ... STOP .... 15 feet .... I SAID STOP .... 10 feet ... I'll shoot!"
Once that's on record, it's obvious it was self self defense, and the perp had every opportunity to avoid being shot. The evidence of the 911 call will be better than any statement you could make!
Of course, things can happen much too quickly for you to report what's happening, but the attack, struggle, whatever will also be recorded and can back up your account of events.
A friend of mine learned this in a self defense course and passed it on to me. :wave:
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57- are you in HI?
"went outside with my pistol" is not legal here, so i am assuming not
i can't imagine what would happen here in that situation
i am thinking SWAT teams taking you down before the crazy guy
Yeah I'm in Hawaii.....I guess that's why they did there steps in disarming me (turn around, holster the pistol, hands behind the head, and. Took it from me from behind) They were cool, and explained I couldn't be outside with a firearm loaded. Our house is gated, So for the intruder to go past the gate to my front door trying to come in, wouldn't he be trespassing? I mean I'm still on my property.
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Defend yourself because the cops took 30-45 minutes to get to my house and I live in the aliamanu area!
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glad that turned out ok
not sure about the gate, but i wouldn't risk it
for me, house only and only if in danger (grave danger)
(please someone get the reference)
Yeah I'm in Hawaii.....I guess that's why they did there steps in disarming me (turn around, holster the pistol, hands behind the head, and. Took it from me from behind) They were cool, and explained I couldn't be outside with a firearm loaded. Our house is gated, So for the intruder to go past the gate to my front door trying to come in, wouldn't he be trespassing? I mean I'm still on my property.
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for me, house only and only if in danger (grave danger)
(please someone get the reference)
Is there any other kind? :popcorn:
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mahalo, moosed
http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/shaka.gif (http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/shaka.gif)
Is there any other kind? :popcorn:
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Better to be judged by 12 of your peers than carried by 6 of your friends! If it meant that my wife and kids were alive and safe, I would take prison time any day of the week.
I would burn in hell for my families safety!... I won't make a record of any possible actions online ... :thumbsup: Guess you weren't catching that I was being sarcastic in my post....
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Well...if we can finally get the CCW issue overturned, you won't need to call the cops : call pizza hut if anyone enters your house again. :thumbsup:
You don't need a CCW to carry a gun in your home.
Your home is your castle.
If someone breaks into your home, you have every right to protect your life and the lives of your family.
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Continuing story....... Girl intruder walking around my home at 3am in the morning talking "this is the house, this is the house"! I wasn't sure if she was with another accomplice or not or just plain crazy! So one cop finally arrives he walks around my property and a girl in her 20s is running out and screaming "don't touch me" running down my street! Cop comes back reports "everything is clear"! So I'm confused i tell the cop "why did u let her go"! Cop replies "what the f_ck u wanted me to do, u wanna do my f_cking job! I told the cop u should of questioned her on what is she doing here or check her ID & see if she lives in the neighborhood or not! I told the cop u should of got her info because what if she comes back and were all dead u have no leads! He tells me "oh let me go find her"! Cop jumps into his car and leaves! Never heard from him & he never came back for a report! So I file a complaint on him!
Did you file a burglary report/complaint afterwards? Could've called dispatch and explained the situation, tell them you want to file a report.
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According to HPD Firearms :
My home can be defended ONLY IF someone is 'forcefully' and/or 'violently' attempting to break into my home while I am within the confines of it.
Bullshit.
So you wake up in the middle of the night and two huge guys are in your home.
A) You watch them rape your wife and kill your kids because you're not sure if they "forcefully" or "violently" entered your home?
B) You tell them to leave and if they refuse, you take whatever steps are necessary to stop them from harming your family,
No offense to whoever gave you that piece of misinformation but they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
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According to HPD Firearms :
My home can be defended ONLY IF someone is 'forcefully' and/or 'violently' attempting to break into my home while I am within the confines of it.
My question is : does my front gate count?
Maybe the HPD firearms administration staff need to read more of Hawaii's Revised Statutes than just those that pertain to gun permiting and registration:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.HTM (http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.HTM)
§703-304 Use of force in self-protection.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.
(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.
(3) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.
(4) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:
and so forth
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It seems like everyone likes to think in worst case scenarios, two 6'5", +300lb'ers raping your wife and kids, what would you do situations. In the grand scheme of things, that is highly, I mean highly unlikely. With that said, I like to plan for worst case scenario too. In which case all bets are off when the safety of my loved one are concerned and someone is dying for putting their hands on them. I'm sure the majority of you out their feel the same. Here is the thing though, that is maybe the 1% of home invasions. Tell me, when was the last time there was a headline like that? I know, I know what if? If your planning on worst case scenario, ask yourself, did you prepare for the other 99% of the time? I don't have any statistics but probably a good majority of would be criminals would pass your house if your lights would turn (i.e. motion sensor lights) A good motion sensor light cost less than $20 bucks. I think $20 is worth your family's safety? How about a good deadbolt? There are lots of things that would deter a good majority of worst case scenarios. So why not make the percentages work in your favor? Personally I'd rather not shoot anyone if I could help it.
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When you live on an island with a major meth addiction problem, for example, you can't predict what situations you might face.
Here's a "what if"... what if you worked at the Xerox building and had a concealed weapon when Byran Uyesugi brought his guns to work that day?
No one is saying there is a good chance that the worst case will actually happen. But what if it does? What if you made the conscious decision to play the odds? What if it resulted in your mother and father being killed right in front of you, and you were powerless to protect them?
Police officers and the military train all the time for the worst case scenario. Most never face the decision to take a human life, but they are trained to act JUST IN CASE the situation arises. There is no second place for mortal conflict.
Many choices in life don't allow for a "do over." Maybe you don't believe it is your responsibility to protect yourself and others to the best of your ability. If so, then you are perfectly free to make that choice, and you can justify it any way you wish.
I want to be free to make that choice for myself as well.
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As my grandma tells me, if "ifs" & "ands" were pots and pans the world would be a kitchen. Hahahhaha
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When you live on an island with a major meth addiction problem, for example, you can't predict what situations you might face.
Here's a "what if"... what if you worked at the Xerox building and had a concealed weapon when Byran Uyesugi brought his guns to work that day?
No one is saying there is a good chance that the worst case will actually happen. But what if it does? What if you made the conscious decision to play the odds? What if it resulted in your mother and father being killed right in front of you, and you were powerless to protect them?
Police officers and the military train all the time for the worst case scenario. Most never face the decision to take a human life, but they are trained to act JUST IN CASE the situation arises. There is no second place for mortal conflict.
Many choices in life don't allow for a "do over." Maybe you don't believe it is your responsibility to protect yourself and others to the best of your ability. If so, then you are perfectly free to make that choice, and you can justify it any way you wish.
I want to be free to make that choice for myself as well.
Hey man I agree with you for preparing for the worst case but getting a good deadbolt and motion sensored light all are parts of preparing for the worst. Anyone who says different has got their priorities mixed up. If you got that all covered. How many rounds do you have down range in your hd firearm? How much training have you had? Do you have a weaponlight? How accessible is your firearm? If you got more 10k+ down range, cqb training etc good on you. Chances are you don't have that background. Even trained leos and military can't guarantee the safety of you loved ones in an armed conflict.
Since you like to play what if. What if that $20 deadbolt and motion sensor light would have stop the intruder from even stepping in your home. I'm not trying to say you don't have the right to protect yourself and family with a firearm but use some common sense here. If your confident in you skills with a firearm and are willing to take a shot that could hit a loved one go ahead. I've got years of military training and thousands of rounds down range and I wouldn't take that chance. Its not as easy as in the movies.
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Even trained leos and military can't guarantee the safety of you loved ones in an armed conflict.
There are no guarantees. I just want to make sure I have whatever I need to gain the advantage in a conflict. Being unarmed is not my idea of being on an even playing field in any violent attack.
What if that $20 deadbolt and motion sensor light would have stop the intruder from even stepping in your home. I'm not trying to say you don't have the right to protect yourself and family with a firearm but use some common sense here. If your confident in you skills with a firearm and are willing to take a shot that could hit a loved one go ahead. I've got years of military training and thousands of rounds down range and I wouldn't take that chance. Its not as easy as in the movies.
I'm former military. I'm an expert marksman, albeit nobody is perfect. I have a number of deterrents around my property, and I'm not in a habit of posting my anti-theft, anti-trespassing measures on public forums! :closed:
Since you don't know me or what measures I have in place, your words are only shots in the dark. I'm cautious to the point of appearing paranoid. However, my caution is not from an irrational fear. It is from a deep belief that there is no one in this world who cares as much about your life as YOU. If you delegate your safety and the safety of those you protect to others, then you are being irresponsible. I am committed to protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones. Yes, I do the common sense preparations around the house. While many of my neighbors have been burglarized multiple times each, my home has never been broken into, There was one attempt, but my measures prevented it.
So, you can continue preaching to the choir, but as for me, I'm making my own choices. You have the right to do the same.
As for shooting someone unintentionally ... that's an anti-gunner argument! "You are more likely to shoot a family member than a criminal." "What if you shoot through a wall and hit a family member?" What if your wife hears you sneaking home late and thinks you're a burglar?" Statistically, that happens very rarely -- statistically it's insignificant.
I don't answer the door with a gun in my hand. However, you don't come in my yard uninvited, either. That's one reason for the Audio/Video intercom doorbell by the front gate.
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As for shooting someone unintentionally ... that's an anti-gunner argument! "You are more likely to shoot a family member than a criminal." "What if you shoot through a wall and hit a family member?" What if your wife hears you sneaking home late and thinks you're a burglar?" Statistically, that happens very rarely -- statistically it's insignificant.
Bro, peace! I'm not trying to get in to a pissing contest about what I did in the army or what kind of home security I have vs what you got. Obiviously your squared away and good to go but there are definatly more undertrained and uneducated people who own firearms that dream of the what ifs so they can pull their gun out. These are the same people who the antigunners have a field day with when something that involves a gun hits the news. The point I'm trying to make is responsible firearms owners need to stress that armed conflict should only be used in the most dire of situations. You got me wrong. I'm all for self defense with a firearm, under the right circumstances. A good number who say their guns are for self defense don't even go target shooting regularly let alone have decent locks in their homes. Just having a gun is not the end all solution.
BTW. What were last local headlines involving guns? Man shoots son through the ceiling while cleaning an ar. Lady hit by a bullet that was fired in the air. Innocent people who got shot by idiots without the training or know how. When was the last local headline about an intruder being shot by a home owner? Not so statistaclly insignificant after all. Just saying gun owners need to be responsible. :shaka:
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http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Home-Intruder-Shooting-200786881.html (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Home-Intruder-Shooting-200786881.html)
http://q13fox.com/2013/04/05/maple-valley-homeowner-shots-and-kills-an-intruder/#axzz2QVYn6cfQ (http://q13fox.com/2013/04/05/maple-valley-homeowner-shots-and-kills-an-intruder/#axzz2QVYn6cfQ)
http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/43466174522/virginia-man-protects-his-2-year-old-son-shoots-and (http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/43466174522/virginia-man-protects-his-2-year-old-son-shoots-and)
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Gun-Control-Supporter-Embraced-by-Gun-Rights-Supporters-After-Pulling-Weapon-in-Self-Defense-202221521.html?fb_action_ids=4815960158478&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=s%3DshowShareBarUI%3Ap%3Dfacebook-like&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582 (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Gun-Control-Supporter-Embraced-by-Gun-Rights-Supporters-After-Pulling-Weapon-in-Self-Defense-202221521.html?fb_action_ids=4815960158478&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=s%3DshowShareBarUI%3Ap%3Dfacebook-like&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/20/another-reason-why-its-a-bad-idea-to-break-into-a-texas-home-armed-elderly-man-kills-home-intruder/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/20/another-reason-why-its-a-bad-idea-to-break-into-a-texas-home-armed-elderly-man-kills-home-intruder/)
When the criminals discover it's more rewarding and safer to get a legit job, then crime rates will plummet!
I wasn't trying to get into a pissing contest either. You're projecting alot of stereotypes about the "average American gun owner." Most are just like you and me. There are active and inactive military, law enforcement, security guards, and so forth. Most of us have been instructed in judicious use of deadly force ... knowing when it's appropriate and when to avoid it.
From my experience, when a person that's been properly trained carries a concealed weapon (maybe a bit off topic), he/she becomes a different person. They avoid conflicts, and they try to leave rather than be involved in anything close to a fight. They know just having that weapon on them might create suspicion and negative opinions by Law Enforcement if called to intervene. And if the weapon is discharged, that's a can of worms nobody wants to have to deal with ... with or without casualties.
Too many anti-gunners project their own lack of training and fear of shooting the wrong person onto others. That's not logical, nor is it supported by any stats or studies.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope they don't prove me wrong. It's the same respect I expect from law enforcement and law makers. Don't treat me like you would the "lowest common denominator" in society.
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Hey man I agree with you for preparing for the worst case but getting a good deadbolt and motion sensored light all are parts of preparing for the worst. Anyone who says different has got their priorities mixed up. If you got that all covered. How many rounds do you have down range in your hd firearm? How much training have you had? Do you have a weaponlight? How accessible is your firearm? If you got more 10k+ down range, cqb training etc good on you. Chances are you don't have that background. Even trained leos and military can't guarantee the safety of you loved ones in an armed conflict.
Since you like to play what if. What if that $20 deadbolt and motion sensor light would have stop the intruder from even stepping in your home. I'm not trying to say you don't have the right to protect yourself and family with a firearm but use some common sense here. If your confident in you skills with a firearm and are willing to take a shot that could hit a loved one go ahead. I've got years of military training and thousands of rounds down range and I wouldn't take that chance. Its not as easy as in the movies.
I think we are straying away from the subject which is how to deal with an intruder. NOT what preventive measures are used to insure your home/residence is safe. Here's a thread I had awhile back in regards to home security:
http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=4466.msg45085#msg45085 (http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=4466.msg45085#msg45085)
Reading your post kinda confuses me. Are you saying with your military training you "wouldn't take that chance" to defend yourself and family? I really doubt that. What I've gathered from what you wrote is that you've accessed that only a very small percentage of people have enough training to use a firearm to deal with a violent intruder. It's safe to say that there are many variables for any given situation. It helps having/sharing/discussing/practicing your own plan, knowing what is your shooting lanes in your home is all important. Vice the kinda winging it when something happens (which I'm guessing that you are assuming that's most people are doing).
Question, where are you getting your statistics from?
"A good number who say their guns are for self defense don't even go target shooting regularly let alone have decent locks in their homes."
"It seems like everyone likes to think in worst case scenarios, two 6'5", +300lb'ers raping your wife and kids, what would you do situations."
These sound like assumptions.
I can tell you from personal experience that there are a lot of stories that DO NOT make the news that would surprise you that do involve guns.
I'm local born and raised/active duty, and worked security right outside of Schofield (Waikamilo) and in Waikiki and I've seen some shit. Short story: Working security for ONLY two months I witnessed two different occasions where a drunk yoked guy was pissed at a neighbor and punched the entry door in. Both doors had a dead bolt/or chain. Both times the fricken hindges came off with the door. Shit happens. Don't let the lack of local headlines fool you.
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imku, your missing my point. I would not take a shot that could possible hurt a loved on ie a hostage shot/close proximity... Im simply not that good and even if I was I wouldn't take that chance. I would however not hesitate if all criteria for a just shoot existed.
a large number of hd gun owners have not shot their guns enough to be proficient on them. that's just fact. go to the range. more times than not that's true. statistics are not needed to prove that point. you can't just shoot one box of ammo once a month and call your self trained. besides most people can't afford that let alone find the ammo.
worst case scenario. read the posts before. a lot of them go straight to the bad guy doing bad things to family members. I was just going off that. I'm sure those situation happen all the time regardless of what kind of locks people have. the spirit of my post is that people jump to the extreme and plan for that even before doing the more prudent things like investing in locks, lights etc. if you live in a bad neigborhood maybe plan on moving to a better one. all I'm trying to say is you should try to make it as hard as posibble for these things to happen to you. if it does happen on top of all of that have enough trigger time, training behind your firearm so that when you do use it you can use it safely, effectively and under the right circumstances
sounds easier than reality but reading the posts here on the forums, a lot of people have a shoot first mentality
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"It seems like everyone likes to think in worst case scenarios, two 6'5", +300lb'ers raping your wife and kids, what would you do situations."
I can tell you what I've seen first hand.
I know that there are people walking around that are predators.
It has nothing to do with height and weight.
Their whole existence is hurting and taking from anyone weaker than them.
The person that has the audacity to break into your home knowing that you're home has already decided to "handle" any confrontation.
This type of person does not think like me and you.
The "predator" mindset is just that.
Like a lion who's sole purpose is to hunt and kill anything weaker than itself when it's hungry, a predator will not hesitate to kill you or anyone else who gets in their way.
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Just for clarification, KK you quoted me quoting Hunter1007.
Hunter1007, I did not see where you stated that your point was that you would not take a shot in a hostage/close proximity besides your last post. That changes to a whole different situation I think. With that said we can spend all type of time with this "How to deal with an intruder thread" and debate different situations that very well may or may not justify the needs of deadly force or the ability/oppertunity to use deadly force. Situational awareness is imperative and will/should dictate the appropriate response whether it be the usage of deadly force or not.
Majority of your points that you are making IMO is very similar to the rhetoric of anti-gun activists or just anti-gun minded people (I've had these types of discussions in the past) and you really are projecting alot of stereotypes of what YOUR idea of the "average gun owner" is which is a type of "elitist" view of gun ownership IMO. Your arguements seems to be based on your own opinions/assumptions, whether it's accurate... we can agree to disagree I guess :). I'm all on board for finding everything possible to PREVENT any intruder from entering my home, but what is to be done when those preventive measures didn't stop them? Early in this thread, there was the suggestion of Run, Hide, Fight theory. This is the base of what my own "plan" includes along with the notification to HPD.
Disclaimer - I'm just having a friendly discussion, I hope you don't feel like any of this is anything personal.
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As for shooting someone unintentionally ... that's an anti-gunner argument! "You are more likely to shoot a family member than a criminal." "What if you shoot through a wall and hit a family member?" What if your wife hears you sneaking home late and thinks you're a burglar?" Statistically, that happens very rarely -- statistically it's insignificant.
Hunter1007, ...
Majority of your points that you are making IMO is very similar to the rhetoric of anti-gun activists or just anti-gun minded people (I've had these types of discussions in the past) and you really are projecting alot of stereotypes of what YOUR idea of the "average gun owner" is which is a type of "elitist" view of gun ownership IMO. Your arguements seems to be based on your own opinions/assumptions, whether it's accurate... we can agree to disagree I guess :). I'm all on board for finding everything possible to PREVENT any intruder from entering my home, but what is to be done when those preventive measures didn't stop them? Early in this thread, there was the suggestion of Run, Hide, Fight theory. This is the base of what my own "plan" includes along with the notification to HPD.
That's my impression of Hunter1007's arguments as well!
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That's my impression of Hunter1007's arguments as well!
Man I went from chimeing in on a discussion wanting to add some insight to the whole package of home defense to being an anti gunner arguing not to have a gun :wtf: I didn't see that coming. Not once did I say guns should be taken out of the equation. I do however believe in and practice much of what you have mentioned about the total package of home defense not just the gun side. I believe in eliminating as much possibilities that an intruder from picking my house using methods stated before by others and several others not mentioned. So what exactly make me an anti-gunner or for that matter an elitist?
I don't see my views as arguments against guns. More like prudent and responsible actions of a lawful gun owner based on my personal experiences. Maybe I should have started out with that, my experiences. Yes these are my opinions and generalizations based on my experiences. How accurate in terms of actual statistics IDK. But in many cases (in my experience again) these stereotypes are actually realities. ie people at the range sweeping themselves and others on the line while charging the slide on a loaded pistol, shooting at your target instead of theirs or missing completely by yards. I can go on. If they do that in practice, it would only be worse in a high stress situation where its life and death. It is my opinion that there are more of these gun owners out there. Not saying they shouldn't own guns just saying it is their responsibilities to learn, get trained and practice. Rule of thumb, If you don't know who uncle with the puka shirt is at the range, you not shooting enough!
Main reason I not playing the "quote your stats" game is that mentality is purely argumentative along with using bold and red text and !!!.. I'm not here troll. Just sharing. Like ImKu said agree to disagree. Supporters of 2A rights come in varying degrees. We are just varying degrees on the same side. Peace out!
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Dang this thread got intense!!
:popcorn:
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Man I went from chimeing in on a discussion wanting to add some insight to the whole package of home defense to being an anti gunner arguing not to have a gun :wtf: I didn't see that coming. Not once did I say guns should be taken out of the equation. I do however believe in and practice much of what you have mentioned about the total package of home defense not just the gun side. I believe in eliminating as much possibilities that an intruder from picking my house using methods stated before by others and several others not mentioned. So what exactly make me an anti-gunner or for that matter an elitist?
I was hoping that you wouldn't take it the wrong way, but have an outside view of what others actually MAY think you are trying to express in your posts. I believe that you are pro 2A. I have not said that you are in fact anti-gun or an elitist, but I instead stated that your argument points that you were making in your posts were.
"a large number of hd gun owners have not shot their guns enough to be proficient on them"
"there are definatly more undertrained and uneducated people who own firearms that dream of the what ifs so they can pull their gun out"
"A good number who say their guns are for self defense don't even go target shooting regularly let alone have decent locks in their homes."
"a lot of people have a shoot first mentality"
Whether or not your statements are right/wrong or even accurate, these are exactly along the same lines of what I am hear amongst people that have a anti-gun mentality. I'm just pointing it out. Sorry to break it to you, but it's the truth... I've had these arguments with a few. I don't consider you a troll. You hammer home the importance of training and home security. I just think that due our extremely different views we have alot to disagree about.
:stopjack:
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(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/320/d/9/shit_just_got_real_by_dbzsgtjustin-d4ge0j2.jpg)
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I will whip out my Tactical Balls.
http://www.amazon.com/Brite-Strike-RID-3-Tactical-3-Pack/product-reviews/B002SJ6E2E/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/Brite-Strike-RID-3-Tactical-3-Pack/product-reviews/B002SJ6E2E/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)
here is a copy of my review
"Since I became an honorary member of the Punxatawney swat team a year ago, I have desperately needed a set of tactical balls. The other members of my team all had balls so I thought I could get by without them. One the few occasions when I took point and really needed a set of balls, I would use my partners. He doesn't mind letting me hold onto them. I eventually bought my own and never looked back.
The tactical balls are extremely effective. When my men and I are breaching a stronghold, we all simply whip out our balls and throw them all around. This garners a great deal of attention from the bad-guys and allows us to quickly mount our adversaries.
The one drawback of the tactical balls is their pouch. The just don't ride evenly; one always seems to droop in the pouch lower than the others. However, there are quite a few places into which the balls fit snuggly. I like to keep mine with my flashlight. My partner even borrowed my balls once and cleared an entire floor of an apartment building with them in his mouth. (HIs is quite good at spitting and planned to deploy them in this manner). "
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I will whip out my Tactical Balls.
http://www.amazon.com/Brite-Strike-RID-3-Tactical-3-Pack/product-reviews/B002SJ6E2E/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/Brite-Strike-RID-3-Tactical-3-Pack/product-reviews/B002SJ6E2E/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)
here is a copy of my review
"Since I became an honorary member of the Punxatawney swat team a year ago, I have desperately needed a set of tactical balls. The other members of my team all had balls so I thought I could get by without them. One the few occasions when I took point and really needed a set of balls, I would use my partners. He doesn't mind letting me hold onto them. I eventually bought my own and never looked back.
The tactical balls are extremely effective. When my men and I are breaching a stronghold, we all simply whip out our balls and throw them all around. This garners a great deal of attention from the bad-guys and allows us to quickly mount our adversaries.
The one drawback of the tactical balls is their pouch. The just don't ride evenly; one always seems to droop in the pouch lower than the others. However, there are quite a few places into which the balls fit snuggly. I like to keep mine with my flashlight. My partner even borrowed my balls once and cleared an entire floor of an apartment building with them in his mouth. (HIs is quite good at spitting and planned to deploy them in this manner). "
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Thanks. Good way to start a hump day.
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I had a full post for this... but I deleted it.
It makes me very worried that I, or my wife could be tried and found guilty of protecting our home and our two babies from an intruder with awful intentions that illegally broke into our home, our sanctity...
I say do what you have a right to do... just make sure it looks good.
Ie: dont shoot him in the back, and make sure you leave him unable to tell the nice understanding cops
About how the mean old homeowner refused to be a good little sheep and cower in the closet threating to to call the police. Instead, he told him he couldn't have his stuff to pawn to pay for his next meth binge and then mercilessly shot him in the guts with a mini 14...
If he runs, im not gonna shoot him in the back, he'll be given a sporting chance to run. but if he turns and faces me he's getting serviced.
I will not run and hide in my own home, screw that. This is MY space, my castle and no one (except my wife :-* ) dictates what I do in my home.
Im sick of good law abiding citizens being told that they have to allow criminal scum to victimize them, im sick of the fact that or so called civilized society says that violence is the last resort. It only emboldens these animals, they know there are no consequences of note to discourage them from victimizing good people, they know that it takes 20 minutes for the police to show up But hey, this is the way we seem to want it... and I cant change what goes on in public, as much as I would like to.
However, this kinder gentler bullshit stops at my front door.
As for the measured response to how dire an attack is before you resort to violence...
One must always infer that when a man raises his hand against you or brandishes a weapon that he intends to try and kill you. So any attack could be construed as a dire threat.
Anything less could cost you your life
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Well said Snuffy, well said.
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>:D
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Um...I wasn't throwing grenades or shooting AT-4's at people on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis,
Anyway...back to the action guys! :popcorn:
You damn rocket noob ;)
:popcorn: :stopjack:
Just yanking yer' chain BTW
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>:D
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I have run and praticed this many times in my apartment. I have also done massive research on you tube for realistic training videos of home defense. Also personal defense magazines are out there with great advise such as
gunsmagazine.com/home-self-defense.
O0
"I was born with an AR15 in my hand, from this gun will be my last stand. Knowing that I lived and died free. No regrets will be had by me".
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take from this what you can as applies here to aftermath at least.
http://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLo (http://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLo)
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take from this what you can as applies here to aftermath at least.
http://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLo (http://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLo)
thanks...good point!
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So far, the discussion has focused on situations in which you are in the house, and there is an intruder who is attempting to gain entry into (or has just gained entry into) your home.
I wanted to switch things up and pose a not-so-hypothetical scenario.
What happens if you come home to find an intruder already in your home?
I just learned about a friend of mine (actually, his wife and young daughter) who experienced such a situation about a month ago…
Wife picks up Daughter, after work, and goes home.
Wife doesn’t notice anything out of the ordinary when she pulls into the garage, so she proceeds to open the front door and enters home.
Daughter runs into the house, and goes to her bedroom.
Wife heads to the bedroom and drops her things onto the bed.
Wife notices slight movement out of her peripheral vision, near the bedroom closet, and assumes it was her husband (my friend) home early from work.
Wife hears a male voice say, “I don’t want to hurt you, but give me all your money.”
Wife turns to see a male intruder just inside the bedroom closet with face partially obscured by a tshirt.
Just then Daughter runs into the bedroom.
Wife tells Daughter to go back to her room; Daughter complies.
Wife goes to purse on bed, retrieves approximately $60.00 from her wallet, and throws the money onto the floor (as many people advise you to do in such situations, to maintain distance between you and perp).
The intruder tells Wife to pick the money up from the floor and hand the money to him, whereupon the intruder grabbed the money pushes Wife out of the way, and runs out the door.
They do have a house alarm, but apparently, one of the small windows that the intruder used to gain entry was not tied into the alarm system.
Thankfully, no one was injured, but the entire family is deeply traumatized by the experience.
I think that getting a dog is on their short-list of “Things To Do,” and I'm sure avoidance/deterrence is critical, but does anyone have any thoughts or comments on how to deal with this kind of situation?
Mag dump into chest ::) hah nah
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does anyone have any thoughts or comments on how to deal with this kind of situation?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h8r6CY5UZyw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dh8r6CY5UZyw (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h8r6CY5UZyw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dh8r6CY5UZyw)
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This happened to me.
Mid day, mid week I was at home playing Blackops or similar on my Xbox360. I was sitting on the couch, the front door to this place was on my left. Approximately 50ft from me, but visible if I turned and looked with my head only. I had a screen door on with the handle locked. So I'm blasting away and hear the door yanked open, I turn and I see a guy walking doff his shoes then proceed to walk down the hall. I blink for half a second, stand up into a run. Crank my arm back into a chambered baseball pitch with the intent to throw my controller like a fast pitch into his face. Simultaneously I yell "WTF, GTFO". The guy looks at me from 15ft away and says "oh she wasn't playing games when I left." He then proceeds outside with his small handbag and leaves. I stand there and process the event for a minute then go outside to look for him. He is no where to be found so I go to several different neighbors to say some dirt ball just walked into my place. About 3 doors down a new tenant says she was having a plumber over.
In retrospect at that time (2011) I lived in a townhouse complex, an upstairs unit and my screen door lock wasn't very secure. Though gain access to my front door you have to open my front gate that was waist high.
If he was a threat my plan was to beat his ass with my Xbox controller. If I threw or lost the controller, I kept several 28-34" thick rattan sticks and a 1"diameter pipe next to that front door. Without self glorifying I have a lot of experience training to hit things with sticks and anything handy. This includes people, heavy bags, dummies, tires and the like. If I had to retreat the kitchen was 8-10ft next to the door in which I could have grabbed the next useful weapon. At that and this time I do not have a firearm readied for an intruder(s). I do have a young child, including his mother who are not ready to have one around. I do have numerous weapons placed throughout the house that would seriously dissuade them from continuing to stay on my property. I use a large safe and have thought of the Barska with manual metric access for quick availability, but don't have a high threat level so there is minimal need vs want.
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