2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: ren on December 05, 2023, 09:05:27 PM
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(https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/chris-costa-grip-exhibit-B.jpg)
I think its poor trigger control and technique. Fine for a bolt gun but not for a pistol gripped gun like an AR.
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I was going to object, thinking about the need to keep the thumb near the safety switch. (No Black Hawk Down index finger reference needed!)
Then I thought, what about if he's using an ambidextrous switch?
Other than that, seems like the pistol grip is designed with stability in mind. If not using the grip as a grip is no less stable, I say "What's the harm?"
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I have done it when sighting in a sight but not in a combat shooting movements. When going for accuracy I notice having the thumb on the outside helps me keep the gun more steady than a wrap around grip.
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I have done it when sighting in a sight but not in a combat shooting movements. When going for accuracy I notice having the thumb on the outside helps me keep the gun more steady than a wrap around grip.
that's what I commonly see and that's inconsistency. From what I read AR shooters / instructors adopted the technique from benchrest shooters. But BR shooters shoot from ONE position and have stocks that don't have a pistol grip. I have not seen one shooter at the National levels shoot with a thumb outside the grip. From standing, sitting and at prone - irons or optics.
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I only did this when zero'ing or wanting to do precision type shooting.
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I only did this when zero'ing or wanting to do precision type shooting.
You are not building a consistent position. You change your grip from zeroing to your normal shooting position. Inconsistent. I also noticed that positioning your thumb outside the grip changes the angle of your shooting wrist - you can see that in the image of Costa.
In a relaxed state your thumb naturally curves to meet the tip of your pointer finger.
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You are not building a consistent position. You change your grip from zeroing to your normal shooting position. Inconsistent. I also noticed that positioning your thumb outside the grip changes the angle of your shooting wrist - you can see that in the image of Costa.
In a relaxed state your thumb naturally curves to meet the tip of your pointer finger.
I understand. Let me explain more. When I zero, my goal is to make sure the rifle does what it's supposed to do. So any errors are human and not hardware. So if I'm perfectly zero'd and stacking rounds for thumb out, but when shooting normal, I'm 1 inch to the left. I know it's me and not my rifle. But in real practice, I zero's at 50 with thumb out and was tangerine size grouping. And at 35yrds or less, I'm more like Costco Smarties size orange grouping while standing. So guud enuff. And my POA/POI is very close as well since I know my offset, which doesn't happen at 50 yards.
Also bench tac driver shooting is too much voodoo for me. Had some fun with my 22, but too much caffeine in the veins.
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I understand. Let me explain more. When I zero, my goal is to make sure the rifle does what it's supposed to do. So any errors are human and not hardware. So if I'm perfectly zero'd and stacking rounds for thumb out, but when shooting normal, I'm 1 inch to the left. I know it's me and not my rifle. But in real practice, I zero's at 50 with thumb out and was tangerine size grouping. And at 35yrds or less, I'm more like Costco Smarties size orange grouping while standing. So guud enuff. And my POA/POI is very close as well since I know my offset, which doesn't happen at 50 yards.
Also bench tac driver shooting is too much voodoo for me. Had some fun with my 22, but too much caffeine in the veins.
So, let me ask you this...
If you can shoot dead center with thumb out, but you're 1" left with thumb wrapped around the grip, are you planning to aim 1" right of center "when shooting normal?"
If you aren't confident in your ability to hit the center with a "normal" purchase on the firearm, how do you expect to correct it? You'll be aiming wrong to compensate for doing something else wrong. The purpose of practice and training is to get rid of all those compensatory actions so you're shooting correctly every time.
It's like golf. If you have a wicked slice on every drive, you wind up aiming cock-eyed to compensate. Then you discover that 3-4 times out of 18 holes, you actually do everything right, and the ball goes 280+ yds ... in the wrong direction!
Fix the problem -- don't just learn to live with it.
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(https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/chris-costa-grip-exhibit-B.jpg)
I think its poor trigger control and technique. Fine for a bolt gun but not for a pistol gripped gun like an AR.
that's a strange looking grip. right and left hand with left arm wrapped around the magazine. doesn't look comfortable. maybe it adds stability, more points of contact. but I don't really practice that half kneeling shooting stance anyway, bad back and bad knees
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So, let me ask you this...
If you can shoot dead center with thumb out, but you're 1" left with thumb wrapped around the grip, are you planning to aim 1" right of center "when shooting normal?"
If you aren't confident in your ability to hit the center with a "normal" purchase on the firearm, how do you expect to correct it? You'll be aiming wrong to compensate for doing something else wrong. The purpose of practice and training is to get rid of all those compensatory actions so you're shooting correctly every time.
It's like golf. If you have a wicked slice on every drive, you wind up aiming cock-eyed to compensate. Then you discover that 3-4 times out of 18 holes, you actually do everything right, and the ball goes 280+ yds ... in the wrong direction!
Fix the problem -- don't just learn to live with it.
This is another factor. If I'm off by 1 inch, then I need to learn to not be off. So remove faulty equipment as a factor. Luckily, in actual use, this isn't an issue of mine. It was just my thought process while I was zero'ing.
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This is another factor. If I'm off by 1 inch, then I need to learn to not be off. So remove faulty equipment as a factor. Luckily, in actual use, this isn't an issue of mine. It was just my thought process while I was zero'ing.
If you can master breath control and recoil anticipation, you're more than halfway to being consistent.
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that's what I commonly see and that's inconsistency. From what I read AR shooters / instructors adopted the technique from benchrest shooters. But BR shooters shoot from ONE position and have stocks that don't have a pistol grip. I have not seen one shooter at the National levels shoot with a thumb outside the grip. From standing, sitting and at prone - irons or optics.
I would be worried about trying that grip if I were snap shooting or some sort of combat shooting. Never tried it, maybe next time I do dry drills I will see how it feels.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/6QSXnC4h/troll.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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I do thumb outside when precision shoot, testing new loads or zeroing also. For me it just helps me pull the trigger as straight rearward as possible. Im usually loaded up on a bipod when I do this though. If the front of the rifle is just resting on a shooting bag i naturally wrap my thumb around for more stability.
Edit: Forgot to mention I would only do this with a light trigger also Like the geissele ssa-a or ssa-e. I tried thumb outside with a milspec trigger and its pretty hard. I wrap my thumb around at that point to help with the extra weight to get it to break.
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In general, removing your thumb from the equation can reduce unwanted movement during trigger pull, think of it as freefloating your thumb. If youve ever used a mantisX, it shows you exactly how much movement is happening during your trigger pull. All the fingers in your hand are connected together, it can be a lot of movement.
In the attached photo, looks like a difficult shooting position, gun is probably canted to the right making a full thumb grip akward. that'd be my guess. Probably giving up the thumb so that he can use his entire left arm and leg to load the gun against right arm and shoulder. Like you might do with a sling.
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Only in a precision rifle shooting scenario would that be beneficial. Any other application you want to truly grip the gun in the event you need to do movement with the gun.
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Ill try that grip this weekend with SCATT to see if there are measurable results
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i'd rather not know about your scat...
Ill try that grip this weekend with SCATT to see if there are measurable results
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I would be worried about trying that grip if I were snap shooting or some sort of combat shooting. Never tried it, maybe next time I do dry drills I will see how it feels.
I would think that the web of the hand, wrapped behind and around the pistol grip, helps to control recoil, if you're doing quick follow-up shots, or want to keep the optic on-target, down-range. otherwise the pistol grip will have a tendency to just slide rearwards out of the hand, probably have to re-affirm your grip after each shot.
given that the shoulder absorbs most of the recoil, and the support hand is there to control muzzle rise, but having both the pistol-grip hand, AND the shoulder working against recoil is better than just the shoulder being there as the recoil pad. I would think.
in any event, if you're only shooting one shot at a fixed target, bench-rest, I guess it's fine. or if you live in Kalifornistan, where the govt says you're not allowed to wrap your thumb around a semi-auto AR pistol grip, because that's just downright evil, go-to-jail.
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Ill try that grip this weekend with SCATT to see if there are measurable results
and?
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and?
i'd rather not know about your scat...
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lol
it was a joke, ren
sorry
how did the testing go?
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lol
it was a joke, ren
sorry
how did the testing go?
stand by... I am trying to be subjectively objective..maybe Saturday because it is the most objective day of the week...
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i'd rather not know about your scat...
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and I don't want to know where you put your thumb either
:rofl:
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and I don't want to know where you put your thumb either
:rofl:
Objectively, subjective, i like macs thumb too
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nothing measurable with SCATT
tried prone, sitting and standing. worse was standing
overall, groups were larger with thumb out.
(https://i.imgur.com/AxuFsbu.png)
here's what SCATT picked up while shooting prone with thumb out
green is the approach to target
yellow is the time in millisecs before breaking the shot
red is follow through
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nothing measurable with SCATT
tried prone, sitting and standing. worse was standing
groups were larger with thumb out.
you put your left arm in the same position as well? how did you manage that while prone?
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didnt shoot the Costa way. I used a sling in prone and sitting . ricle felt loose with thumb out
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didnt shoot the Costa way. I used a sling in prone and sitting . ricle felt loose with thumb out
cool thanks for trying and reporting back :shaka:
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nothing measurable with SCATT
tried prone, sitting and standing. worse was standing
groups were larger with thumb out.
This entire post. Lol
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