2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Begle1 on February 27, 2024, 02:39:27 PM
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Apparently they're still going after all 50 cals in the newest version of SB3196. What is the best rhetorical tack to defend against this?
Defending hunting tends to play well with fence sitters, so explaining that 50 cals do have a valid hunting purposes seems a good argument to make.
Now that AR's aren't being banned under the bill, the 50 Beowulf seems like a great candidate for defense. Lever actions in 500S&W or 50 Alaskan and old-school buffalo rifles deserve to be defended too...
But for the sake of testimony, does anybody actually have or use any of these? (I'm inspired to buy a trapdoor Springfield off Gunbroker, there are a bunch of them, but they're all scary old and the ammo is rare.)
It needs to be stated that larger and slower rounds are generally great hunting rounds if within range, as they kill quickly and do less damage to meat. Most people don't immediately recognize that overkill is more ethical than underkill.
The only 50 cal I personally have is a 50 BMG, and I feel the arguments in favor of that are harder to make appeal to the uninitiated.
1) It's fun!
2) Federal law restricts calibers above 50 caliber, so an Hawaii law limiting calibers above .49999 is capricious. Similar or superior ballistics can be achieved with smaller rounds like the 416 Barrett.
3) The typical 2A/ S17 arguments.
4) They are virtually never used in crime in the USA. (But apparently Mexican drug cartels have been using 50 BMG's like crazy... Which can be used to demonstrate their use in the paramilitary-type conflicts they're engaged in, which demonstrates their feasibility as a tool of a militia, but that probably isn't an argument I'd want to make against somebody who is fear-mongering the things.)
5) They're used in long range target shooting, but is there any suitable range or target shooting competition in Hawaii? The argument would be that somebody should be allowed to take one back and forth from the mainland.
I wonder if it's even worthwhile to try to explain the difference between 50 BMG and the other 50's. California decided to ban 50 BMG by name and that led to the creation of slightly-different, "not-50 BMG" rounds.
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Have Barrett send a letter notifying HI State and govt agencies they will no longer service their firearms. Once sent back to them they keep it. Just like they did with CA.
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The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.
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Have Barrett send a letter notifying HI State and govt agencies they will no longer service their firearms. Once sent back to them they keep it. Just like they did with CA.
This is a good idea. Does anybody know if HI government has any 50 calibers, Barrett or otherwise?
The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.
A few years ago Maui County Council had a bill that would ban all firearms over 50 caliber. Not just centerfire rifles but even muskets and shotguns too.
I want to say it was Mike Molina's bill? I remember the councilman who, after being blasted with absolutely withering testimony, he had this sheepish defeated look and said something like "well, I just wanted to stop weapons that could snipe somebody from like a mile away..."
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Draft testimony below:
There is a wide variety of "50 caliber" cartridges and this bill makes no distinction between them. Federal law already restricts ammunition above 50 caliber; it'd be capricious and imprudent for Hawaii to restrict ammunition above .499 caliber.
This bill would ban rifles chambered for cartridges with great hunting pedigrees, and none of the rifles this bill would ban have any sort of prominent criminal history or practical criminal use in the United States.
Generally speaking, larger bullets travel at a slower speed than smaller bullets. When hunting, a larger slower bullet will often destroy less meat than a smaller and faster bullet. But larger slower bullets will have a shorter usable range and will often provide more recoil to the shooter, which slows down repeat shots.
Single-shot "buffalo rifles" from the 1800's would be banned by this bill. Rifles using more-modern cartridges like the 50 Beowulf or 50 Alaska would also be banned. These rifles are no more dangerous than smaller caliber rifles; they are generally shorter-ranged and have less power than 30 caliber rounds that are in common use.
Presumptively, the intention behind this bill was to ban the most powerful of the 50 caliber rounds, the 50 BMG, and the authors of the bill are willing to outlaw every other 50 caliber round to do so. 50 BMG rounds are the most powerful available in the USA that aren't subject to extra regulation.
50 BMG rifles are relatively large, heavy and expensive. It is extremely difficult to imagine a scenario where a criminal planning a crime with such a rifle would be dissuaded by the existence of this law, or would be unable to commit the same crime with a slightly smaller bullet.
50 BMG rifles have been banned in other jurisdictions, and the result has been the development of rounds of similar power that are slightly smaller and oftentimes more inherently accurate.
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Isn’t there something about limiting magazine capacity in rifles to 20 rounds also?
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i don't think anybody hunts with 50BMG. it's not about hunting.
but there's sport shooters, enjoyment of the hobby.
you're right, banning the .50 is capricious. the folks shooting real long range, i.e. 1 mile plus, are using the sub-.50 cal "cheytac" calibers, amongst others. Those outperform the 50BMG "by a mile", pun intended, and those are in the .3xx-.4xx caliber ranges.
so yes, it's arbitrary and capricious.
not to mention the infringement.
next thing, he'll be going after our .308's.
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For the OP, most trapdoor springfields are 45-70. They are exempting pre-1899 rifles from what I remember, so they would not be impacted.
Some people do hunt with 500S&W, 500 Nitro Express, and 50 Beowulf, but I don't know if anyone here does.
500 S&W and 50 Beowulf are mostly used for hunting for straight wall cartridge states. The 450 Bushmaster is cheaper and nearly as good for that purpose.
500 Nitro is an old stopping rifle cartridge, but there are other alternatives for folks with enough money to fly to Africa and pay $8 per shot.
Effectively, this is a poorly done, overly broad way to ban the 50 BMG which is bullshit. The state's blocking of public land from practice for long range rifle shooting is far more effective at preventing hits than banning a caliber that isn't even that great for ELR shooting.
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50 cal this year, 45 cal, next year, .223 the year after.....
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Best argument to convince someone who doesn't believe that the second amendment is about having firepower equivalent to a military:
This would restrict many sporting and hunting guns such as vintage double barreled stopping rifles like what Teddy Roosevelt would have used. It would also restrict single-shot rifles chambered in handgun cartridges.
Slippery slope arguments are based in reality, but most politicians don't seem to think that way.
As an aside, Bear Creek Arms seems to have some very cheap 50 Beowulf uppers. This bill makes me want one
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/assault-rifles-and-shotguns-would-still-be-allowed-in-hawaii-under-amended-bill/
(https://d1l18ops95qbzp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/2024/02/27154628/Screenshot-2024-02-27-at-3.42.52-PM-1024x784.png)
why the mask? afraid to face the people? Or trying out for Jabbawockeez?
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The same bill from a year or two ago had no exemptions for hunting. I had submitted testimony that guns with bullet sizes over .50 cal were used for hunting and were common among black powder guns. This years bill had the exemption for black powder guns so it does appear they took that into account.
The only other argument I can think of is that it is very rare to have a murder with a .50 cal or anything similar. Murders with very large calibers simply doesn't exist as a real problem.
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If you try and appease them that's not fighting back, but negotiating the terms of your surrender.
You may think you win some concessions here and there, but the big picture is this never ends until they've taken everything.
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Death by a thousand cuts.
Marvin talks about using a .243 bolt action for hunting as to why someone would want to use an "assault rifle" for hunting.
That's his logical argument. To try to ban assault weapons.
If successful this same "logical" person most likely will go after the .243 bolt action rifle.
It will never end. Because they are not interested in gun control like they say. Their agenda is the complete ban of guns to civilian society.
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/assault-rifles-and-shotguns-would-still-be-allowed-in-hawaii-under-amended-bill/
(https://d1l18ops95qbzp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/2024/02/27154628/Screenshot-2024-02-27-at-3.42.52-PM-1024x784.png)
why the mask? afraid to face the people? Or trying out for Jabbawockeez?
Everyone but Buenavenutra, Awa, and Gabbard was wearing a mask. This includes the support staff sitting behind them. At least Marx is consistent and wears his mask when walking outside. Elefante takes his mask off when speaking into the mic. Prob wearing it to appease his master, Marx.
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The only other argument I can think of is that it is very rare to have a murder with a .50 cal or anything similar. Murders with very large calibers simply doesn't exist as a real problem.
Its about shooting down airplanes.
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Its about shooting down airplanes.
quick, everybody google search how much windage you need to dial for an target moving at 600 knots.
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https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/
KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.
“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”
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https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/
KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.
“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”
I think the Remington 700 bolt action is still very popular with the military, US and most-if-not-all modern foreign militaries, if we're going to talk about "weapons of war".
I think the Houthis are still using WW1 relic rifles, and apparently they are giving the Saudis a spanking.
and as far as criminals go, I'd bet that the .22LR has been used for more crimes than any 50 cal. Hawaii, and nation-wide.
of course, 9mm Glock is the most popular choice for the saggy-pants gang-banger population segment. and Glock-with-switch being the most sought-after. But Glock switches are already extremely illegal-as hell, six ways to Sunday, banning them would be like beating the dead horse after it came out of the soap factory.
.50 cal is popular with sport shooters and firearms enthusiasts, not so much with criminals. will not reduce crime, not even by 0.001%. will not save "even one life".
so yeah, arbitrary and capricious. adversely affects only law-abiding citizens, and their range-buddies, who (hopefully) vote.
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https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/
KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.
“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”
So he admits it will have no effect on crime, and hes only doing it because he wants to deny law abiding citizens. Looks like we got a winner for "best rhetoric".
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https://www.khon2.com/local-news/hawaii-lawmakers-looking-to-ban-50-caliber-guns-ammunition/
KHON2 asked Rhoads why .50 caliber weapons should be banned if criminals do not often use them.
“Because it’s a weapon of war,” Rhoads said, “all these gun bills are drawing lines. There’s a kitchen knife on this side and there’s a nuclear weapon on this side. So, where is it that you allow civilians to keep having it?”
SCOTUS drew the line with Heller. "In common use" and thats minimum of 200,000 (Cayetano SCOTUS taser ruling).
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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he stated today a mile and a half...
The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.
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Its about shooting down airplanes.
Does he know something about a terrorist threat that we don't? Sure, a .50 cal would do a lot of damage to an airplane but I wouldn't want to be on a plane during takeoff with even just a .308 being shot at either.
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Regarding hunting with a .50 cal, my cousin on Molokai hunts deer with a .50 cal, but his is a suppressed PCP rifle, not a firearm.
I don’t know anyone using a powder burning .50 cal for hunting in Hawaii.
Mr Rhoads is an idiot for thinking anyone who buys a .50 cal rifle can just go out and hit a target a mile away.
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The main guy (Karl RHodes) who has been pushing this a few times now thinks its easy for someone to shoot at a target from a mile away with this gun.
he stated today a mile and a half...
he must've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express that night. Improved his knowledge.
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Was Rhodes around when we had the Tyke the Elephant incident? The community needed a 50 cal readily available back then.
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Does this include 50cal muzzleloaders? It’s very common for muzzle loaders to be 50 cal
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affirmative
Does this include 50cal muzzleloaders? It’s very common for muzzle loaders to be 50 cal
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Does this include 50cal muzzleloaders? It’s very common for muzzle loaders to be 50 cal
muzzleloaders not included.
".50 caliber rifle" means a centerfire rifle capable of firing a .50 caliber cartridge. ".50 caliber rifle" does not include any antique firearm, any shotgun including a shotgun that has a rifle barrel, or any muzzle-loader which uses black powder for hunting or historical reenactments."
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ah
no focus...
muzzleloaders not included.
".50 caliber rifle" means a centerfire rifle capable of firing a .50 caliber cartridge. ".50 caliber rifle" does not include any antique firearm, any shotgun including a shotgun that has a rifle barrel, or any muzzle-loader which uses black powder for hunting or historical reenactments."
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of course, 9mm Glock is the most popular choice for the saggy-pants gang-banger population segment. and Glock-with-switch being the most sought-after. But Glock switches are already extremely illegal-as hell, six ways to Sunday, banning them would be like beating the dead horse after it came out of the soap factory.
My understanding is that full-auto firearms are no more illegal than any other firearm for felons to possess...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_v._United_States
So if you're already legally barred from owning a gun and you're going to break the law by having a gun anyways... Ought as well go the whole nine yards and convert it to full-auto.
I don’t know anyone using a powder burning .50 cal for hunting in Hawaii.
I'm tempted to get a 50 Beowulf upper just to prove the use case.
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To answer op ? Yes, I've used 50 bmg n some 50 bmg variants to hunt here. Also hunt with 50 beowulf as well for a long time now since AA created it.
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To answer op ? Yes, I've used 50 bmg n some 50 bmg variants to hunt here. Also hunt with 50 beowulf as well for a long time now since AA created it.
Why? I am intrigued to hear some elaboration.
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Probably nobody here in Hawaii hunts with that large a caliber.
Game here is so small here there would not be any meat left!
Here on the big island we have lots of wild cattle, nobody hunts them
Too remote and a big pain to hike out the meat.
Have you every hiked out a 800 pound Elk 400 yards up hill?
you get the idea. Cattle weigh lots more.
This is simple, Democrat politicians are worried about their butts.
They have become so obnoxious and disliked they are worried.
And they recognize this.
The bad news is Hawaii is still at the bottom of the list when it comes to voter turnout nationwide.
so less than a majority of possible Hawaii voters elected these idiots.
:wave:
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whether or not 50BMG is used for hunting here in Hawaii or not, is totally off the point.
this is about your right to exercise the 2nd Amendment, and if you think that it's okay to ban 50BMG just because it's useless for hunting here in Hawaii, then you're falling for the Dems trap. "The 2A isn't about duck hunting" somebody once said. That means you're willing to sacrifice that to appease Karl Rhoads. Every year it's a new carve out.
I'd guess there's probably less than 100 Barrett 82's in Hawaii, at the most, maybe 200.
you're throwing those firearms enthusiasts under the bus, just to appease the anti-2A. I'd bet anybody with a Barrett 82 is a very firm believer in the 2A.
No criminal is ever going to rob the 7-Eleven, or the local Savings & Loan, with a 50BMG rifle. Ever.
Unless it's a comedy movie.
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Why? I am intrigued to hear some elaboration.
Everything is based on the hunter's skill level. If you have a 50bmg, and can hunt with it ethically, you should not need any other special reasons to go hunting with one. Theres also no legal reason as to why you shouldnt be able to do it if you wanted to, unless this bill passes.
Hunters hunt for many different reasons like strictly for meat, for trophy or for sport, extermination, etc. There is a term called fair chase which has to do with ethical hunting. But you decide for yourself what is fair chase, because its kind of based off of your own ability and skills.
You cant honestly state that a certain gun is "too heavy for hunting" or "does too much damage". Its the same kind of thing when they say you dont need an AR for this or that, or you dont need a 30 round magazine, etc...
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whether or not 50BMG is used for hunting here in Hawaii or not, is totally off the point.
this is about your right to exercise the 2nd Amendment, and if you think that it's okay to ban 50BMG just because it's useless for hunting here in Hawaii, then you're falling for the Dems trap. "The 2A isn't about duck hunting" somebody once said. That means you're willing to sacrifice that to appease Karl Rhoads. Every year it's a new carve out.
I'd guess there's probably less than 100 Barrett 82's in Hawaii, at the most, maybe 200.
you're throwing those firearms enthusiasts under the bus, just to appease the anti-2A. I'd bet anybody with a Barrett 82 is a very firm believer in the 2A.
No criminal is ever going to rob the 7-Eleven, or the local Savings & Loan, with a 50BMG rifle. Ever.
Unless it's a comedy movie.
I might be a bit off subject but this is why for me personally I believe Bills like SB3196 is blatant and illegal government overreach. They are being discriminatory as to what I can and cannot legally possess as a private citizen.
This whole 50 cal. fiasco is a good example that shows people like Rhodes are not even trying to understand and learn about firearms. It is because he and people like him don't really care.
It's not even about public safety and an effort to curb gun violence. They say so but they are full of shiite. Their agenda goes past their so called scary and dangerous Assault Weapons. They aim to disarm all law abiding citizens of ALL firearms.
That is their agenda. Power and absolute control of the people.
"WE THE PEOPLE" scares the sh*t out of them.
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whether or not 50BMG is used for hunting here in Hawaii or not, is totally off the point.
this is about your right to exercise the 2nd Amendment, and if you think that it's okay to ban 50BMG just because it's useless for hunting here in Hawaii, then you're falling for the Dems trap. "The 2A isn't about duck hunting" somebody once said. That means you're willing to sacrifice that to appease Karl Rhoads. Every year it's a new carve out.
I'd guess there's probably less than 100 Barrett 82's in Hawaii, at the most, maybe 200.
you're throwing those firearms enthusiasts under the bus, just to appease the anti-2A. I'd bet anybody with a Barrett 82 is a very firm believer in the 2A.
No criminal is ever going to rob the 7-Eleven, or the local Savings & Loan, with a 50BMG rifle. Ever.
Unless it's a comedy movie.
At the end of the first hearing on SB3196, Karl Rhoads said that nobody hunted with a 50 cal, so that was part of his rhetoric in favor of his bill.
Section 17 and the 2nd Amendment aren't about hunting, but I don't think it would've been a bad thing, to respond to Rhoads with pictures and anecdotes of Hawaii residents hunting with 50 Alaska/ 500 S&W lever actions, 50 Beowulf, 50 caliber buffalo rifles, etc.
When the task at hand is arguing against a new bill, I ask myself what sort of rhetoric would be persuasive to the undecided voter.
Ideally, I'd want to oppose a bill by pointing out it's fundamentally flawed; it contradicts itself, it's ambiguous, it's demonstratively unconstitutional and is just going to cost the state money in legal fees to defend it, etc. This sort of argument is effective regardless of whether somebody agrees with the intent behind the bill.
Then for a gun prohibition bill, if I can't argue flaws in the legal language, I'm happy if I can argue that it'd affect traditional cultural activities like hunting, small caliber target shooting, or shotgun sports. For whatever reason, "hunting" is often more revered in our culture than a right to self-defense, and fence-sitters who may be afraid of "assault rifles" often aren't afraid of Grandpa's hunting heirloom. Gun grabbers also know this, and usually go out of their way to reassure people that Elmer Fudd-style hunting weapons are not going to be targeted.
When it comes to opposing things like magazine capacity limits or bans on firearms that don't have traditional "sporting" uses, then it's time to argue fundamental gun rights and self-defense rights. And I'm happy to do so, but I don't expect it to be a winning argument among the masses, in the way it's a winning argument among those on this forum. In my experience, once the argument gets down to quoting the second amendment, undecided eyes glaze over.
I'd say it's still important for some people to argue against ALL firearms regulations with the good ol' Pro-2A rhetoric. It's important to always have that voice, and that's probably the steady voice that'll over time do the most to slide the Overton window. But in the near term, pragmatically speaking, I believe other arguments are more effective to the ears that matter the most.
Everything is based on the hunter's skill level. If you have a 50bmg, and can hunt with it ethically, you should not need any other special reasons to go hunting with one. Theres also no legal reason as to why you shouldnt be able to do it if you wanted to, unless this bill passes.
Hunters hunt for many different reasons like strictly for meat, for trophy or for sport, extermination, etc. There is a term called fair chase which has to do with ethical hunting. But you decide for yourself what is fair chase, because its kind of based off of your own ability and skills.
You cant honestly state that a certain gun is "too heavy for hunting" or "does too much damage". Its the same kind of thing when they say you dont need an AR for this or that, or you dont need a 30 round magazine, etc...
I'm really just curious now about this story behind hunting in Hawaii with a 50 bmg. I would love to hear details about how, when, why this was done. Not from any sort of activist perspective, but because there must be an interesting story behind it.
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At the end of the first hearing on SB3196, Karl Rhoads said that nobody hunted with a 50 cal, so that was part of his rhetoric in favor of his bill.
The anti 2A's only argument left is stuff like this, You need to show a reason why you want X. Nevermind the fact that it could be protected by the 2A.
I don't need a reason to own a 50.
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The anti 2A's only argument left is stuff like this, You need to show a reason why you want X. Nevermind the fact that it could be protected by the 2A.
I don't need a reason to own a 50.
That's way too much power for someone without the proper...oh wait...
https://honoluluexotics.com/
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That's way too much power for someone without the proper...oh wait...
https://honoluluexotics.com/
I own a 0.54
that will put a very large hole in some animal.
:thumbsup:
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Why? I am intrigued to hear some elaboration.
Why not? Lol, honestly not being sarcastic brother. I feel those who posted after me answered that perfectly.
I love and have a passion for hunting and shooting irregardless of what I'm using. Ive used knife, spear, handgun, rifle, muzzleloader, bow, shotgun etc. The caliber is just a small piece of the puzzle. As long as it's being done legally n ethically then I don't see a problem. And having to justify why I choose one caliber over another is downright bogus IMHO. As long as it's legal and ethical. We shouldn't have to justify ourselves to them.
My family loved long range shooting n hunting. We loved building wildcats long ago. The 50 was the biggest case we could get our hands on n went from there. When the 408 came out we built 338-408 wildcats then 375 CT.
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Where did you do it? Did you do it with any sort of regularity? What sort of range?
How much elevation did you haul a 20+ pound rifle up?
Was the meat damage as severe as everybody would assume?
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Where did you do it? Did you do it with any sort of regularity? What sort of range?
Did it on few of the islands. Kinda regular for a few years, out to and beyond 1000 yds.
How much elevation did you haul a 20+ pound rifle up?
Too much lol I was younger then. And it didn't weigh much compared to the pigs we packed out of the mountains lol
Was the meat damage as severe as everybody would assume?
Meat damage depended on where you hit them. But yeah it could be quite severe if hit at certain angles. But so was the 30-416 Rigby we built n 338-408 and other big wildcats we built.
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It appears that Rhoads is not only attacking the 2a but the people's way of sustaining themselves