Post by: Begle1 on March 06, 2024, 03:12:23 PM
Is it the same as far as Hawaii state is concerned?
Because I'm about ready to have a 18.5" barrel cut down to around 15.5" and then have a muzzle brake welded on. I know it's fine federally but want to make sure I don't accidentally make a Hawaii assault pistol, since HAR talks about barrel lengths, but not pin&welds.
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 06, 2024, 03:21:53 PM
Post by: macsak on March 06, 2024, 03:29:49 PM
I know federally-speaking that pin&welding a muzzle device onto a barrel lengthens the barrel.
Is it the same as far as Hawaii state is concerned?
Because I'm about ready to have a 18.5" barrel cut down to around 15.5" and then have a muzzle brake welded on. I know it's fine federally but want to make sure I don't accidentally make a Hawaii assault pistol, since HAR talks about barrel lengths, but not pin&welds.
Post by: Begle1 on March 06, 2024, 03:35:07 PM
Is the overall length more than 30 inches?
No, overall length will be 26".
Post by: drck1000 on March 06, 2024, 03:49:09 PM
Post by: drck1000 on March 06, 2024, 03:50:07 PM
yes, as long as it's pinned and welded and 18.5"check your focus. . .
Post by: macsak on March 06, 2024, 04:49:27 PM
check your focus. . .
no focus
minimum 16 inches
call it 16.25 to be sure...
Post by: dogman on March 06, 2024, 05:26:15 PM
no focusNo worries, we'll let it slide since you own no ARs.
minimum 16 inches
call it 16.25 to be sure...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on March 06, 2024, 05:31:51 PM
For an AR (or any rifle), close the bolt, then run a dowel or cleaning rod into the barrel from the muzzle end until it makes contact with the face of the bolt.
Mark where the rod exits the barrel (tape, Sharpie, ...), and remove it. Measuring the rod gives the accurate, ATF-approved barrel length.
If HPD uses an external measurement and believes the barrel is too short, you should be able to explain the above procedure and how it's the ATF accepted method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQmvd7PTQkA
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 07, 2024, 08:10:03 AM
Also when I reg my shotgun, it looks less than 18 inches. The cop didn't even measure, he asked if it was 18 inches or longer and I said yes. He took my word for it.
Post by: QUIETShooter on March 07, 2024, 08:16:17 AM
HPD was on camera measuring a barrel incorrectly a few years ago. They measured on top the barrel with a yard stick. So the above is good info to know in case they do hassle you.
Also when I reg my shotgun, it looks less than 18 inches. The cop didn't even measure, he asked if it was 18 inches or longer and I said yes. He took my word for it.
Consistency, or lack of it, is an indicator of any individual, agency, or organization.
Post by: macsak on March 07, 2024, 08:18:44 AM
HPD was on camera measuring a barrel incorrectly a few years ago. They measured on top the barrel with a yard stick. So the above is good info to know in case they do hassle you.
Also when I reg my shotgun, it looks less than 18 inches. The cop didn't even measure, he asked if it was 18 inches or longer and I said yes. He took my word for it.
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 07, 2024, 08:50:44 AM
did mrs cmo take your word for it?
I tricked her and once she found out, it was too late.
Post by: macsak on March 07, 2024, 08:54:52 AM
I tricked her and once she found out, it was too late.
Post by: ren on March 07, 2024, 09:16:31 AM
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on March 07, 2024, 09:52:42 AM
I don't know why guys are going for the bare minimum length. bullets don't shoot as far, velocity loss, performance decrease...
Close quarters use is improved -- as in home defense use.
In such a scenario, distance and velocity are not concerns.
Just a guess.
Post by: zippz on March 07, 2024, 10:10:09 AM
For most people it's because they can.
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 07, 2024, 10:14:55 AM
I don't know why guys are going for the bare minimum length. bullets don't shoot as far, velocity loss, performance decrease...
I've never did CQB with an exact 16 inch barrel, as mine is 16 inches + what ever the break adds. I doubt there's a huge difference in CQB performance, but IDK. I have CQB'd with a bullpup and it's a noticeable difference. But was I just used to the longer barrel?
Maybe they're just doing it because they can/trying to buck the system.
IMO, training helps reduce this issue. Train with what you got.
Post by: ren on March 07, 2024, 10:15:40 AM
Post by: randay on March 07, 2024, 10:27:27 AM
I don't know why guys are going for the bare minimum length. bullets don't shoot as far, velocity loss, performance decrease...
So if I add a couple of inches it will shoot farther, and increase performace?
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 07, 2024, 10:32:02 AM
So if I add a couple of inches it will shoot farther, and increase performace?
Yes, refer to 20 inch M16 A1 type AR15s.
Post by: zippz on March 07, 2024, 10:35:24 AM
https://youtu.be/k1riDGYDf-k
Post by: zippz on March 07, 2024, 10:48:52 AM
I've never did CQB with an exact 16 inch barrel, as mine is 16 inches + what ever the break adds.
I wouldn't use a brake on a CQB gun, the muzzle blast reflecting off walls is going to mess you up.
Post by: drck1000 on March 07, 2024, 10:59:14 AM
I wouldn't use a brake on a CQB gun, the muzzle blast reflecting off walls is going to mess you up.WHAT??!?!?! :rofl:
I've shot (next) to some obnoxious brakes, and even outdoors some were damn loud. JP, Lantac, etc. ;D
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on March 07, 2024, 11:00:51 AM
I've never did CQB with an exact 16 inch barrel, as mine is 16 inches + what ever the break adds. I doubt there's a huge difference in CQB performance, but IDK. I have CQB'd with a bullpup and it's a noticeable difference. But was I just used to the longer barrel?
Maybe they're just doing it because they can/trying to buck the system.
IMO, training helps reduce this issue. Train with what you got.
Some owners spend a lot of time and money trying to shave off a couple more ounces from their AR in order to have the lightest weapon possible.
Whether it's for 3-gun competition, home defense, carrying into areas with wild animals, or just to make it easier to carry and shoot at the range, there's a benefit to losing those unnecessary ounces of barrel steel.
Barrel length difference alone might not be significant, but combined with lighter handguards, polymer vs. steel mags, lighter weight optics, removing the front sight post/gas block and replacing with a low profile block and much smaller sight, and so on can really add up in making the rifle lighter.
Post by: QUIETShooter on March 07, 2024, 11:01:21 AM
Fantasy Fulfilment.
What are the chances an average citizen will engage in CQB?
Answer: About the same as winning MegaBucks.
What are the chances the government will confiscate or ban all your cool firearms?
Answer: :D
Post by: drck1000 on March 07, 2024, 11:01:31 AM
A) Because I can
B) Ounces = Pounds. . . over a carbine course, weight kills shoulders :rofl:
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on March 07, 2024, 11:03:39 AM
It's because of the Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon, and Delta Operatives.About the same as having to deal with an intruder or other threat in your home or business.
Fantasy Fulfilment.
What are the chances an average citizen will engage in CQB?
Answer: About the same as winning MegaBucks.
What are the chances the government will confiscate or ban all your cool firearms?
Answer: :D
if you're basing your choices on odds, you probably shouldn't buy a gun at all. Just get a big dog.
There's an adoption event happening .... :geekdanc: :thumbsup:
Post by: drck1000 on March 07, 2024, 11:25:49 AM
It's because of the Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Marine Force Recon, and Delta Operatives.Competition shooters are often at the forefront of innovation with gear and setups.
Fantasy Fulfilment.
What are the chances an average citizen will engage in CQB?
Answer: About the same as winning MegaBucks.
What are the chances the government will confiscate or ban all your cool firearms?
Answer: :D
Personally, for my ARs, I'm not interested in being service rifle competitions or stuff like that. To each their own. . . while I do have one AR setup for "longer" distances, on average I would say in the "up close" to 50 yard distances. I've had a couple of carbine classes that we were shooting out to 300ish, but that was mostly "for fun challenge".
Post by: Begle1 on March 07, 2024, 11:30:29 AM
HPD was on camera measuring a barrel incorrectly a few years ago. They measured on top the barrel with a yard stick. So the above is good info to know in case they do hassle you.
Also when I reg my shotgun, it looks less than 18 inches. The cop didn't even measure, he asked if it was 18 inches or longer and I said yes. He took my word for it.
Maui PD doesn't seem to want to look at my rifles when I register them, I've only been to the police department once. Does HPD really make you come in to physically register every single gun, and they actually measure them? Damn.
But this is sorta the concern I'd have. The ATF's method of measuring a barrel is well established, written down in clarification letters, if not administrative law. But if Hawaii decided that their 16 inches didn't include permanently-attached muzzle devices... Or that they measured from the "top of the balls" instead of the "base of the shaft" or whatever... I don't think it's on paper to say they couldn't, I imagine it'd be a court case but probably a winnable one. I'm willing to take the remote risk and sleep well knowing I'm at least complying with federal policy.
I don't know why guys are going for the bare minimum length. bullets don't shoot as far, velocity loss, performance decrease...
One can keep a 26" long gun shouldered while leaning sideways through a standard door frame or hallway, and it is really useful while keeping handy and positioning around inside of a vehicle too. I can take positions with a 26" gun that'd be physically impossible with a 30" gun. You can also fit it into a much smaller container, like a tool box.
I like bullpups. K&M, IWI, KelTec and DesertTech each make a 26"ish gun with 16"ish barrel in 308, and there are many more options in 5.56. Tavors/ x95's and AUG's have seen plenty of serious service; the layout is not a total evolutionary dead end.
Post by: changemyoil66 on March 07, 2024, 11:42:19 AM
Maui PD doesn't seem to want to look at my rifles when I register them, I've only been to the police department once. Does HPD really make you come in to physically register every single gun, and they actually measure them? Damn.
But this is sorta the concern I'd have. The ATF's method of measuring a barrel is well established, written down in clarification letters, if not administrative law. But if Hawaii decided that their 16 inches didn't include permanently-attached muzzle devices... Or that they measured from the "top of the balls" instead of the "base of the shaft" or whatever... I don't think it's on paper to say they couldn't, I imagine it'd be a court case but probably a winnable one. I'm willing to take the remote risk and sleep well knowing I'm at least complying with federal policy.
One can keep a 26" long gun shouldered while leaning sideways through a standard door frame or hallway, and it is really useful while keeping handy and positioning around inside of a vehicle too. I can take positions with a 26" gun that'd be physically impossible with a 30" gun. You can also fit it into a much smaller container, like a tool box.
I like bullpups. K&M, IWI, KelTec and DesertTech each make a 26"ish gun with 16"ish barrel in 308, and there are many more options in 5.56. Tavors/ x95's and AUG's have seen plenty of serious service; the layout is not a total evolutionary dead end.
The standard way to measure a rifle is from inside the barrel with the bolt forward. Stick a rod down it until it stops. HPD does confiscate SBR's like 1 or 2 a year, but i'm unsure of what barrel length. These are probably people who moved here from the mainland. Also IDK if they were charged with anything since it was confiscated at HPD when they tried to register it.
That's good that MPD doesn't want to look at your rifles. Yukutake, etal vs. Conners (HI AG at the time), lawsuit by HIFICO allows online reg if you buy the gun from a HI FFL. There is no need to bring these guns to the police station anymore. But private party or out of state, then you must bring the gun to the police station. Prior to this lawsuit settlement, all guns had to be brough into the police stations in your county. This was changed like 1 or 2 years ago.
I did look into pullpups, but decided against them.
1) The Tavor felt very off balance. Compare this to an AUG, Keltec RDB or Desert Tech MDR. Then the gen 1 Tavors, I like their mag release compared to the gen 2's.
2) If I went with Aug, I need all new mags as it doesn't accept Pmags.
3) The price of bullpups are often double what you can get a basic AR for.
4) The cheaper one, like the Keltec, felt cheap and not as sturdy. I never looked into it's reliability, but it is a Keltec after all so....
5) Then the IDF switched from the Tavor back to the M4. So this combat tested army did so for a reason.
Post by: ren on March 07, 2024, 12:05:13 PM
Post by: 2aDefends1a on March 07, 2024, 12:09:26 PM
2) If I went with Aug, I need all new mags as it doesn't accept Pmags.
3) The price of bullpups are often double what you can get a basic AR for.
As an AUGsexual I'm honor bound to address these two points
2. AUG NATO stock takes AR mags and they make AUG specific PMAGs so no need the expensive waffles. Trigger isn't as crisp as the standard but Steyr themselves sells spring kits that improve it.
3. AUGs are twice as cool as a standard AR so that tracks they're twice as expensive. I got mine online for about 1300 just gotta watch out for deals. But yes don't buy it if you don't have an AR already kitted out.
Post by: randay on March 07, 2024, 12:16:54 PM
you guys are the furst I know that want to go shorter...I never had anyone chop off any of my length, I cherish my inches
mine was sbr'd very early on.
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on March 07, 2024, 02:04:04 PM
you guys are the furst I know that want to go shorter...I never had anyone chop off any of my length, I cherish my inches
They say when you don't have much, you cherish what little you have.
:geekdanc:
Post by: macsak on March 07, 2024, 04:43:26 PM
Post by: rpoL98 on March 07, 2024, 06:50:16 PM
https://kakindustry.com/13-9-inch-5-56-melonite-barrel (https://kakindustry.com/13-9-inch-5-56-melonite-barrel)
just one example:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-13-7-fn-chf-cl-5-56-13-sabre-lock-up-rail-and-silencerco-asr-w-reptilia-recce-stock-and-grip-fde.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=pm&utm_term=03-06-2024&utm_content=51655152964 (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-13-7-fn-chf-cl-5-56-13-sabre-lock-up-rail-and-silencerco-asr-w-reptilia-recce-stock-and-grip-fde.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_deals&utm_campaign=pm&utm_term=03-06-2024&utm_content=51655152964)
Post by: rpoL98 on March 07, 2024, 06:55:59 PM
The standard way to measure a rifle is from inside the barrel with the bolt forward. Stick a rod down it until it stops. HPD does confiscate SBR's like 1 or 2 a year, but i'm unsure of what barrel length. These are probably people who moved here from the mainland. Also IDK if they were charged with anything since it was confiscated at HPD when they tried to register it.since the Gaza dust-up, been watching some of the IDF action videos posted on their channels on Telegram. Seems like the Tavors are getting a workout, since it's seems mostly urban CQB. Could be also because it's all hands on-deck, any-and-all weapons to the front. Carry-handle A1's through M4's through Tavors. seems like there's quite a few 10.3" also.
That's good that MPD doesn't want to look at your rifles. Yukutake, etal vs. Conners (HI AG at the time), lawsuit by HIFICO allows online reg if you buy the gun from a HI FFL. There is no need to bring these guns to the police station anymore. But private party or out of state, then you must bring the gun to the police station. Prior to this lawsuit settlement, all guns had to be brough into the police stations in your county. This was changed like 1 or 2 years ago.
I did look into pullpups, but decided against them.
1) The Tavor felt very off balance. Compare this to an AUG, Keltec RDB or Desert Tech MDR. Then the gen 1 Tavors, I like their mag release compared to the gen 2's.
2) If I went with Aug, I need all new mags as it doesn't accept Pmags.
3) The price of bullpups are often double what you can get a basic AR for.
4) The cheaper one, like the Keltec, felt cheap and not as sturdy. I never looked into it's reliability, but it is a Keltec after all so....
5) Then the IDF switched from the Tavor back to the M4. So this combat tested army did so for a reason.
Post by: ren on March 07, 2024, 07:16:17 PM
They say when you don't have much, you cherish what little you have.
:geekdanc:
Asian wise man saying.
Post by: macsak on March 07, 2024, 07:21:47 PM
Post by: Begle1 on May 13, 2024, 09:05:30 PM
Came out to around 15.5" of real barrel, 17.5" with the Little Bastard brake welded on, and overall length is around 26 1/8". As long as the butt pad doesn't fall off I should be all set.
Post by: Rocky on May 17, 2024, 01:58:12 PM
WHAT??!?!?! :rofl:
I've shot (next) to some obnoxious brakes, and even outdoors some were damn loud. JP, Lantac, etc. ;D
HEY !
That wasn't obnoxious.
Loud pipes save lives !
Post by: Rocky on May 17, 2024, 01:59:38 PM
So if I add a couple of inches it will shoot farther, and increase performace?Depends on your diet. :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: hvybarrels on May 18, 2024, 12:36:24 AM
Got it today.
Came out to around 15.5" of real barrel, 17.5" with the Little Bastard brake welded on, and overall length is around 26 1/8". As long as the butt pad doesn't fall off I should be all set.
How's the muzzle flash on that puppy?
Post by: Begle1 on May 18, 2024, 08:57:41 AM
How's the muzzle flash on that puppy?
I just ordered ammo, probably won't get to fire it until September. But my gunsmith said "not as bad as I imagined".
Post by: aletheuo137 on May 18, 2024, 09:38:50 AM
Asian wise man saying.Ancient Chinese secret!
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