I've read the wording of HRS §134-9 Licenses to carry about concealed permits: "in exceptional circumstances" "when one has reason to fear for life or property" "May issue, for one year" and I have a few questions.
Are there any attorneys on this board? Has there ever been a challenge to this law? Has anyone successfully filed a "Sunshine Law" request for a list of all permit holders in Hawaii?
That seems the logical approach to changing Hawaii from 'may issue' to 'shall issue'. I'd bet that the list of permit holders is littered with blatant corruption (Friends with the Chief? Permit! Politically connected? Permit! Big donor? Permit!)
If one could demonstrate that the permits are issued without 'exceptional' need to friends, etc, then one could challenge the law as being unequally applied and is disenfranchising the public.
Another way would be sue that the current 'may issue' system is an unconstitutional infringement of the 2A right to 'bear' arms. Hawaii law allows you to 'keep' arms, but 'bearing' them (unless you're one of the Ali'i) is a Class A felony.
Thoughts? Comments?
Right, it gets introduced & killed in committee. The committee decisions are made long before the public 'hearing' and vote (read dog & pony show).
Fundamentally, it comes down to this: a choice between freedom & slavery.
Hawaii has a long history of slavery, in the form of the old Ali'i system that the state government is founded on. Hawaii likes to think of itself as democratic, but let's face it, we have the least number of elected officials of any state in the union. We elect the Governor and the Mayor, who appoint everyone else. These "Ali'i" provide 'security' and 'welfare' for us commoners, as long as we give up our freedom. Slaves may not bear arms. There are lots & lots of people here who wish to be told what to do, every day by their 'leaders', bosses, etc and have a serious case of "don't be the nail sticking out" syndrome.
we need to become that nail, if we are to succeed. Just like the civil rights movement, it takes time & money. Freedom in Hawaii, I think, will not be 'bought' in the legislature. That would mean allowing us to be truly free, which threatens the system. The courthouse, is IMO, the only place we can win this contest. The law is the constitutional or not, regardless of what the legislature wants it to be.
HiCarry,
I have some experience working with the legislature. I guess that colors my opinion. Have you ever heard of Minnie Fukuda?
I like your thinking on this. The problem is finding a lawyer, or someone with deep enough pockets to pay for a lawyer to take on this issue.
HiCarry,
I have some experience working with the legislature. I guess that colors my opinion. Have you ever heard of Minnie Fukuda?
I like your thinking on this. The problem is finding a lawyer, or someone with deep enough pockets to pay for a lawyer to take on this issue.
First of all, hello! Had some problems finding this site initially, but I've spent about five years now in Hawaii.
Alright so, I am going to write to the NRA-CDF ( https://www.nradefensefund.org/requesting_help.aspx (https://www.nradefensefund.org/requesting_help.aspx)) and contact them to ask if they would be willing to fund any litigation here in Hawaii. While I don't believe that they will even fund a court case here, I also figured, like my mom has told me, the worst they can say is no thanks. Has anyone been in contact, have contact or know someone that would be able to provide the following information. ( I can't seem to find any constitutional lawyers here). Information I'm looking for is as follows, in bold:
Projected costs of litigation for the different stages of the case and an explanation of the basis for such projected costs, including hourly attorney fees and projected number of hours;
Probability of obtaining an award of attorney's fees and costs should this applicant prevail in the litigation. This would mostly be based on 42 U.S.C. 1983, very similar to the previous law suit, but that claim was rejected since it was not an individual right (which it is now).
There really seems to be a lack of lawyers willing to take this on. Also considered was a letter to some of the instructors at Hawaii Richardson. It's possible that some of the senior law students might be willing to give this a shot (was just another idea). That being said, most people probably don't have the funds to fight this case. One could always go pro se, which lowers the doubt required, but yeah who knows how that would turn out.
First of all, hello! Had some problems finding this site initially, but I've spent about five years now in Hawaii.
| Delivered, August 06, 2010, 10:19 am, HONOLULU, HI 96813 | |
| (http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/images/bullet_circle.gif) | Acceptance, August 05, 2010, 2:27 pm, KAILUA, HI 96734 |
Wow, I'd give you a CCW permit on the spot! Good luck and let us know how it goes.
On another note, does anyone know SHOPO's stance on CCW for the private citizen?
Had some issues with Fingerprints and a passport photo so this morning I was able to get down there and get the permit request in. Really annoying having to have exactly 19.25 cents to file for fingerprints, when they already did that previously.
So now I can start my timer, which should be about two weeks (im hoping, though there is no limit set by the AG) and will let you guys knows what's up.
The fingerprints are for the CCW. It was really strange, and confused me honestly =p. It all made no sense, but my only job is to comply and document at this time.
I already have my firearms -- they came with my person when i was transferred out here in the Navy.
Should have said hello stego!
The fingerprints are for the CCW. It was really strange, and confused me honestly =p. It all made no sense, but my only job is to comply and document at this time.
I already have my firearms -- they came with my person when i was transferred out here in the Navy.
Should have said hello stego!
Funtimes,
Thank you for standing up for or rights! I hope you can prevail.
We do not believe that the reasons you provided constitute sufficient justification to issue you a permit. Therefore, your application has been denied."
OK, so I'm a complete legal idiot, but would it possibly work to have 50, 100, 200+ people (preferably the majority being valid CCW holders in other states) all apply for a Hawaii CCW (knowing that we will be denied) and THEN bring it to the NRA for possible financial assistance in a class action-esque lawsuit?Actually that is not a bad idea, but I would humbly suggest that you wait a little while. I am trying to open up a dialog with SAF on the best course of action for legal action based on denial of a CCW. I don't think applying for and getting denied a permit now would adversely affect any future case, but I am not sure. It would be good to hear from someone who has already initiated similar cases in other states to see what their concerns and strategies are. I will guarantee you that if I can get that info I will make sure everyone knows what the strategy is and if they should then apply for a permit.
Regarding getting more assistance from fellow gun owners on the Legislative front, do we have anyone from 2AH who goes to the various local USPSA matches and has a booth with pamphlets, informational handouts, etc...?
- Alex
The only way getting denied would affect anything is if you were injured, killed, mugged, etc. and had a lawyer that could argue that FACT, "if he was allowed to defend himself this could have been avoided."
Until people realize the NEED to defend themselves the public won't be out screaming for CCW. But hey, if you wanna do all the work in organizing and applying for 100+ CCW permits, knock yourself out bud.
1st show legitimate reason for CCW
They also recognize in their own document that they have the ability to change their own document as they see fit.
Legitimate reason is how the permit is worded. Simply stating the constitution says is not considered legitimate reason. If it were I would have been ccw since I was eight, and I wouldn't be permitted either. If you honestly believe you have the right from god himself, they why have this discussion. Stfu, cock and lock, and go about your daily business.
Point is, you don't have the right, you must crawl up to your gov't and beg for the permit. There in lies the problem. Solution is, from your stand point, get hundreds of people to protest and sue and tie up the courts for the next thirty years. Not going to work that way, because Hawaii doesn't change that way. If you were born and raised here you would know that. The only way this will work is if a person applied, showed legitimate cause, was denied, was injured and unable to defend himself, then the media will jump in and do what they do, and hopefully we can use that momentum to change the law.
First, I have NEVER said that it was a God-given right; it is a right granted by the US (and Hawaii State) Constitution.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights
provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The only way getting denied would affect anything is if you were injured, killed, mugged, etc. and had a lawyer that could argue that FACT, "if he was allowed to defend himself this could have been avoided."
Until people realize the NEED to defend themselves the public won't be out screaming for CCW. But hey, if you wanna do all the work in organizing and applying for 100+ CCW permits, knock yourself out bud.
Let me make myself clear, the NRA runs stories in their publications every month about people using CCW to defend themselves and others. These are the same situations that need to happen in this state, to wake up the majority. Because that's how our country works, the majority rules. And unless you have thousands and thousands of people storming the capitol building downtown ( remember gay marriage ban) we won't get to exercise CCW.
Until people realize the NEED to defend themselves the public won't be out screaming for CCW. But hey, if you wanna do all the work in organizing and applying for 100+ CCW permits, knock yourself out bud.
I already present the solution ... Until something horrible happens the majority of people in Hawaii will continue to see guns as the problem.
Let me clarify, the NRA runs stories in their publications every month about people using CCW to defend themselves and others. These are the same situations that need to happen in this state, to wake up the majority. Because that's how our country works, the majority rules. And unless you have thousands and thousands of people storming the capitol building downtown ( remember gay marriage ban) we won't get to exercise CCW.
Further more, you can obviously copy and paste but your reading and comprehension skills are off par. I never said anything about applicants wasting their time or applying for CCW as being fruitless. I told Alex if he wanted to organize hundreds of people to apply for CCW to go right ahead. What you folks don't realize is you likely will not find hundreds of people to apply, which is why we have CCW as a not-issue policy. Hell, there aint even a hundred people on this forum.
Maybe 2A can make a sister site, call it 'conceal carry Hawaii' or something, link it to this site of course, and post up some info for others to look at.
Maybe 2A can make a sister site, call it 'conceal carry Hawaii' or something, link it to this site of course, and post up some info for others to look at.
One other thing is that the conditions and crime in Hawaii is not as bad as it is in the mainland, YET... But if the trend of increasing crime, with limited consequenses for criminals keeps rising, I'm sure people attitude will have to change. Many will have to suffer in order for the public view of self protection to change.
As part of the agreement, the state will not pursue a life prison term without the opportunity for parole. Bartley will give up his right to appeal any part of his prosecution, conviction or sentence.
"We're talking about a 15-year-old who murdered his neighbor when he was underage. And that's always been a concern for us that if this case were actually to go up on appeal, the issues would be scrutinized very carefully," said acting Prosecutor Douglas Chin.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/104472059.html (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/104472059.html)
Looks good so far Funtimes! I like the idea of linking back to 2Ahawaii for the forums. Ideally we would want only one major forums to serve as the rallying grounds for our pro-2A movement instead of having a string of small forums scattered through out the internet. The information is consolidated and it's less hassle for members not having jump from forum to forum, and when the legislature session begins again in January, it'll be much easier to get everyone on the same page. ;DMaybe 2A can make a sister site, call it 'conceal carry Hawaii' or something, link it to this site of course, and post up some info for others to look at.It's funny you say that. I'm not done with it but...
www.hawaiiccw.com (http://www.hawaiiccw.com/)
Just something I was working on. I have got a ways to go with it, but in general this was my idea. I will be redoing the whole theme here soon, just gotta find the right one. Only been playing with the wordpress for about 15 hours or so in duration. Also have a facebook, twitter, myspace, ect ect done for the same name. I thought about linking the forums to here, but haven't asked yet. If admins would allow I would just direct forums here, but I wanted some sort of site we could put relevant information, news, etc. about guns, laws, court cases and the like.
Also, in all of my understanding (and the complaint I drafted), you can still hit the Chief of Police in the US 1983 actions. He's not immune if the policy is constitutional, but he makes it unconstitutional. (Which is the case here on island.)
Has it been discussed that maybe we should put flyers up at KHSC and pass out brochures to raise awareness? These brochures can also be put in all the local gunshops. It's one thing to create a forum but it's another to get people to go to it so we could also include the website address on the flyers and brochures. We could brainstorm and discuss what info would be pertinent to the cause and I could create a layout :) Then we could just make mass copies at Kinko's.
To be honest, when I bought my first firearm 6 weeks ago, I was not aware of any of these 2A issues. Now I feel like there is a sense of urgency surrounding these issues. I am not well versed in law and politics but I'll do what I can to help :shaka:
If admins would allow I would just direct forums here, but I wanted some sort of site we could put relevant information, news, etc. about guns, laws, court cases and the like.
I would love to have fliers put up at KHSC and all the gun shops. Would anyone know about how we could go about doing that? Any requirements?
Maybe 2A can make a sister site, call it 'conceal carry Hawaii' or something, link it to this site of course, and post up some info for others to look at.
It's funny you say that. I'm not done with it but...
www.hawaiiccw.com (http://www.hawaiiccw.com)
Just something I was working on. I have got a ways to go with it, but in general this was my idea. I will be redoing the whole theme here soon, just gotta find the right one. Only been playing with the wordpress for about 15 hours or so in duration. Also have a facebook, twitter, myspace, ect ect done for the same name. I thought about linking the forums to here, but haven't asked yet. If admins would allow I would just direct forums here, but I wanted some sort of site we could put relevant information, news, etc. about guns, laws, court cases and the like.
Also, in all of my understanding (and the complaint I drafted), you can still hit the Chief of Police in the US 1983 actions. He's not immune if the policy is constitutional, but he makes it unconstitutional. (Which is the case here on island.)