2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: bryanhayn on December 22, 2012, 01:53:34 PM
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I found this statistic today and thought it was odd considering our strict gun laws and somewhat low crime rate. Anyone know why this is? Maybe with our ridiculous speed limits and asshole drivers we need these cops around to give us traffic tickets ???
www.city-data.com/top2/c423.html (http://www.city-data.com/top2/c423.html)
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Note this is from 2006... I'm not sure how it is now.
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Because the pay is good and they don't have to deal with real crimes or worried being shot at by people who really hate cops.
People would love to have a job that is easy to do and have an easy payout.
Like my soon to be former co-worker who will work at a hotel handing towels at the pool for $19 full time position full time benefits, union
while others stuck at minimum wage jobs because they believe there is nothing out there.
thats capitalism for ya.
there I said it.
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thats capitalism for ya.
there I said it.
Thank you for saying it. I wish more people would come out and say it rather than blindly going along with the herd.
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Thank you for saying it. I wish more people would come out and say it rather than blindly going along with the herd.
Just like this gun craze issue.
Also some state offer more than Hawaii, but crime out there is so out of control and the risk is his that is not worth it. What would you or I would do?
Then there is Illinois where there are no police because of both crime and funds, funny the state the that Obama used to represent......
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One would think that they could spare a couple guys to help man up the gun registration window. Part of the Motto is "To Serve"?
::)
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Because the pay is good and they don't have to deal with real crimes or worried being shot at by people who really hate cops.
People would love to have a job that is easy to do and have an easy payout.
Like my soon to be former co-worker who will work at a hotel handing towels at the pool for $19 full time position full time benefits, union
while others stuck at minimum wage jobs because they believe there is nothing out there.
thats capitalism for ya.
there I said it.
The pay sucks unless you work special duty and put in hours.
Its not easy. Imagine dealing with all kinds of people in different mental states, different backgrounds and different situations; every day. Wears on you.
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Part of the Motto is "To Serve"?
::)
Not anymore, it's not.
Have you looked at the cars lately?
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The pay sucks unless you work special duty and put in hours.
Its not easy. Imagine dealing with all kinds of people in different mental states, different backgrounds and different situations; every day. Wears on you.
Waah, waah.
They start at $4800 a month.
How does that suck?
Whether you work as a cashier, policeman or in customer service anywhere, you deal with all kinds of people in different mental states.
At least as a police officer you have the authority to fight back against physical violence.
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They need to assign a special duty at the registration window :)
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At least as a police officer you have the authority to fight back against physical violence.
and you don't?
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You guys are jumping to conclusions about HPD officers, based on what? Bad information and/or personal bias? Because of all my friends and family who are in HPD...not one joined for the pay or to get rich and it damn well isn't an "easy" job.
One should get their facts straight before jumping to conclusions...Because the city-data information is simply incorrect. Basically they're using the population for Honolulu (District 1) and factoring in ALL the officers & staff in HPD.
Per City-data:
Population: 377,357 residents
HPD: 2058 officers
Officers for every 1000 residents: 5.45
Actual figures:
Population: 909,000 ('residents' in 2006)
HPD: 1200 officers (generous approximation of total of 'working' HPD officers in 2006)
Officers for every 1000 residents: 1.32 So we were actually nowhere close to the top 101.
Keep in mind that the statistical population does NOT take into account transient visitors (tourists) and non-resident military personnel/civilian contractors. And that HPD currently has about 1900 officers, in 29 divisions spread over 8 districts (NOT all are patrol). Realistically, we've got well over 1.8-2 million people and 1400 "working" officers, so it's probably 0.7 to 0.8 officers per 1000. I've been in podunk towns with better ratios. Still think there are too many HPD officers and that it's an easy, over paid job?
We really need to stop with the whole "F*ck the police" mentality.
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Not anymore, it's not.
Have you looked at the cars lately?
It's "Integrity, Respect, Fairness". "To serve..." disappeared from most departments in the '90's.
Waah, waah.
They start at $4800 a month.
How does that suck?
Factoring in the hours and expenses associated (both personal and financial) with the job...it kind of does. Remember we're not talking about a 9-5/5 day a week job.
Whether you work as a cashier, policeman or in customer service anywhere, you deal with all kinds of people in different mental states.
At least as a police officer you have the authority to fight back against physical violence.
Customer service with a badge & gun.
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I think it's important to keep it in prospective and not consider the monetary aspect.
Law enforcent officers protect and defend a society, people's rights, and enforce the laws. Countless LEO across the country have gave their life in the line of duty. It's an extremely stressful profession, that many could not comprehend. My father was a homocide detective sergeant in Detroit but worked his way up along the way. He was shot once in the line of duty and his armor Is the only thing that saved his life. He never talked shop at home but one day he was really depressed and everyone was on him at home. He just got pissed off and said "he just came from a crime scene where some fuckin drug addict was so high, she nuked her newborn in the fuckin microwave". He went on to say, I don't think you want to know how my day is, just don't ask. Not to mention kids and wives never seeing their husband/wife and father, staggering number of LE divorces and suicides. I know Detroit is not Hawaii but they do deserve respect for what they do and the sacrifice they give...its a thankless job. Last point, my father died eight months after he retired, very common for retired LEO to die shortly after retirement, probably because their bodies have a difficult time adjusting to minimal stress. Just my opinion.
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I found this statistic today and thought it was odd considering our strict gun laws and somewhat low crime rate. Anyone know why this is? Maybe with our ridiculous speed limits and asshole drivers we need these cops around to give us traffic tickets ???
www.city-data.com/top2/c423.html (http://www.city-data.com/top2/c423.html)
I feel like there's an Asian driving Joke some were.... i wonder.... jk ......
We love police we also have a large tourist population per Capita that does not exist in other states to the same extent
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The pay sucks unless you work special duty and put in hours.
Its not easy. Imagine dealing with all kinds of people in different mental states, different backgrounds and different situations; every day. Wears on you.
the pay is pretty good for some people, especially if you either dont have a degree, or have one in a field with shaky prospects, like sociology. i know a lot of people who have joined the force because it blows all of their other options out of the water in terms of pay.
its a lot like the military. on the surface, for a lot of people, enlisting doesnt sound like that great of a deal. but for a lot of them, its far and away the best option in terms of making a living.
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Factoring in the hours and expenses associated (both personal and financial) with the job...it kind of does.
Elaborate. What expenses do HPD officers incur that the department doesn't pay for?
Remember we're not talking about a 9-5/5 day a week job.
Any hours worked over 40 pay overtime
Customer service with a badge & gun.
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the pay is pretty good for some people, especially if you either dont have a degree, or have one in a field with shaky prospects, like sociology. i know a lot of people who have joined the force because it blows all of their other options out of the water in terms of pay.
its a lot like the military. on the surface, for a lot of people, enlisting doesnt sound like that great of a deal. but for a lot of them, its far and away the best option in terms of making a living.
In most larger police departments, if you want to advance generally you need education beyond a high school diploma. I agree many may join for superficial reasons but many join in the hopes of making a difference in their communities. Fifty-four Hawaii LEO have died in the line of duty over the years, not all are at the hands of criminals, which is small compared to States that comprise large metropolitan cities comprised of large numbers of hardened criminals and gangs.
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It's "Integrity, Respect, Fairness". "To serve..." disappeared from most departments in the '90's.
Factoring in the hours and expenses associated (both personal and financial) with the job...it kind of does. Remember we're not talking about a 9-5/5 day a week job.
Customer service with a badge & gun.
I stand corrected colt 808 as to the motto,and in no way was I implicating the officer on the street for the FUBAR the registration window.
That is clearly a management issue.
Cops work daily in the belly of the beast. Not for me, but the starting money is not much less than I make after some 30 years in my field.
Special duty and overtime are only a dream. In my line of work O/T is own time.
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In most larger police departments, if you want to advance generally you need education beyond a high school diploma. I agree many may join for superficial reasons but many join in the hopes of making a difference in their communities. Fifty-four Hawaii LEO have died in the line of duty over the years, not all are at the hands of criminals, which is small compared to States that comprise large metropolitan cities comprised of large numbers of hardened criminals and gangs.
i understand that. im only speaking to Hawaii's situation, which is a bit different from most.
just from personal experience, i know a lot of people who got out of high school, didnt know what they wanted to do, and had a choice of working retail/restaurant, or something similar, or getting into the force/fire department. almost all chose the latter.
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There are all kinds of factors that go into pay for each respective PD but they are entitled for pay for hours worked at the junior level, court time too. Many senior detectives go above and beyond without compensation...they are dedicated and committed to resolve and to the victims families, in most cases. Also each city has their own budgetary issues to contend with, which unfortunately involves what value politicians place on public safety. Some cities with huge crime problems are simply broke.
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Firemen are heroes. They help and save people.
Cops are out there diligently protecting us from the criminals so they can't get us. They are out there preventing crime. We need more of them.
Go HPD!!!
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Firemen are heroes. They help and save people.
Cops are out there diligently protecting us from the criminals so they can't get us. They are out there preventing crime. We need more of them.
Go HPD!!!
Agree...everyone wants a cop or fireman when it affects their world. I really could care less what they make...they deserve it. First responders and our military have and continue to earn their pay when it matters.
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Colt808 is right. i know a few cops and their job may be easy at times but hard just as equally. my college teacher was an ex cop an he would share some of his encounters. it may have been fluffed, i dont kno, but it sounds like they go thru a lot. if you think its easy, join HPD so see how its like encountering these criminals and crazy ppl everyday. i think its the ppl who hate cops are the ones who get ticketed or arrested by them a lot. the law is the law and you break it, you risk it. by speaking with my police friends, as long as you are cooperative, calm, and respectful, you are most likely going to get the best experience out of them. when you start talking back is when you get bad experiences. dont try to out smart them either. they do this on a daily basis for a living. most of the time they are right but occasionally make mistakes. when i get pulled over for stupid traffic violations, i risk eating it. i dont drop names or anything. plus all my police friends tell me that they aint gonna tell another policeman what to do bc they aint there and dont know how it went down. i know what i did wrong so i man up. try watch the show 'Cops' once in a while. they tell me this is what they do what the public eye dont see, including in this state. that is true reality TV. dont get me wrong... i dont like police either, bc they can ruin my day, but i have a little more respect for them after being friends with some.
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don't get me wrong... i dont like police either, bc they can ruin my day, but i have a little more respect for them after being friends with some.
Ok, you personally dislike police officers for the reason you mentioned but I can tell you, many, many are diehard gun advocates, gun owners/collectors and support gun rights, not to mention the public safety aspect. Sorry if I seem a little defensive but I come from a law enforcement family and I have numerous LE personal friends.
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WOW, whats with all the LEO bashing? Everyone talks shit until they need HPD's help and or any other 1st responders! Bumbye dey learn!
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WOW, whats with all the LEO bashing? Everyone talks shit until they need HPD's help and or any other 1st responders! Bumbye dey learn!
Amen! :thumbsup:
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WOW, whats with all the LEO bashing? Everyone talks shit until they need HPD's help and or any other 1st responders! Bumbye dey learn!
im not bashing. just saying, someone said the pay sucked, and i personally dont think it does when you compare what some of their other options were.
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im not bashing. just saying, someone said the pay sucked, and i personally dont think it does when you compare what some of their other options were.
I dont think anyone can put a price tag on them putting their life on the line every single day 24/7 365 days a year.
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Cops are out there diligently protecting us from the criminals so they can't get us. They are out there preventing crime. We need more of them.
The Largest Street Gang in America ~ 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9k8L3oDa4#)
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You're stereotyping the 1% of the corrupt and dirtbag law enforcement in our nation. Even the military has their 1%, that's why we have UCMJ. Not a fair assessment of the LE community as a whole. Do you really believe that the vast majority fall into the category you are implying? Not sure of the point you're trying to make?
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You're stereotyping the 1% of the corrupt and dirtbag law enforcement in our nation. Even the military has their 1%, that's why we have UCMJ. Not a fair assessment of the LE community as a whole. Do you really believe that the vast majority fall into the category you are implying? Not sure of the point you're trying to make?
Absolutely not.
I believe 99% of police officers are legitimately wanting to protect and to serve.
I think 99% of them are committed to upholding the law and protecting the people in their communities from harm.
Like any other profession or endeavor or hobby though, there's good and bad.
I'm sure 99% of all gun owners are great people but there's the people you read about on the news.
It's the 1% that make the headlines.
It's the 1% what make lawmakers want to strip our 2nd amendment rights away.
This conversation started about how badly police officers are paid.
Half my family works in law enforcement.
They've all bought homes, put their kids through school and lived a relatively good life.
Police officers will probably never become millionaires through police work but its a good honest living that pays pretty darn well.
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Absolutely not.
I believe 99% of police officers are legitimately wanting to protect and to serve.
I think 99% of them are committed to upholding the law and protecting the people in their communities from harm.
Like any other profession or endeavor or hobby though, there's good and bad.
I'm sure 99% of all gun owners are great people but there's the people you read about on the news.
It's the 1% that make the headlines.
It's the 1% what make lawmakers want to strip our 2nd amendment rights away.
This conversation started about how badly police officers are paid.
Half my family works in law enforcement.
They've all bought homes, put their kiss through school and lived a relatively good life.
Police officers will probably never become millionaires through police work but its a good honest living that pays pretty darn well.
Ok, I thought so too....I think I know you well enough to know where you stand. I'm in total agreement. I just cringe when I see the 1% incidents, and people draw conclusions about the community as a whole, which is far from reality, and it happens.
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Elaborate. What expenses do HPD officers incur that the department doesn't pay for?
I'm not sure if you're serious and really want to know or just trying to bait a response...
I'll just keep it basic and hopefully you'll get the idea.
Financial expenses: Well, not everything is issued, so officers get an annual clothing/equipment allowance. Thinking "Ooh more money..."? No, it's barely enough and most officers can burn through it just on dry cleaning. Should they damage their uniform? They need to get it professionally mended (if still serviceable) but many just replace out of pocket to meet department standards. Even then, the majority of officers have several sets of uniforms that they bought themselves. It's NOT cheap. I know there are a bunch of other things that HPD (and most other departments) does not pay for, but going into it would be pointless...all one needs to understand is that it falls upon the officer to pay.
I believe the personal expense part is self explanatory. Most officers have pretty jacked up home lives, which explains the high divorce rate. Whether it be never being around or, as Bunker mentioned, living with crap normal folk would never understand...it all takes a toll that $4800/mo will never make up for.
Any hours worked over 40 pay overtime
Says who? You're obviously still thinking they work an 8 hr x 5 day week. They don't. With administrative time before and after assigned shifts? An officer can put in 10-12 hours or more a day. They don't punch a clock, so the whole anything over 40 pays overtime is B.S., that's NOT how it works. In a lot of ways, they're like any salaried worker: the shift ends when the work is done. But unlike normal salaried employees, they don't take work home and can't put off doing reports until the next day. It could be anything from doing required reports to transporting someone they have in custody...the job ends when the job is done. All part of their shift, no overtime.
Sure they get overtime, but that's a whole process in and of itself. They have to fill out a form and submit for approval...and it's not always approved. Things like giving a deposition, appearing in court, or being called in to cover a shift? Sure, approved. But working an extra 4 or 5 hours directing traffic because some idiot wrecked on H-1? Not so much, because it's part of the job (shift ends when the work is done).
These are just simple examples, but I think the easiest way to understand would be to stop trying to apply civilian ideas of how things work.
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You're stereotyping the 1% of the corrupt and dirtbag law enforcement in our nation. Even the military has their 1%, that's why we have UCMJ. Not a fair assessment of the LE community as a whole. Do you really believe that the vast majority fall into the category you are implying? Not sure of the point you're trying to make?
A lot of the stereotyping is based on big city law enforcement from the 70's to the 90's. Most departments have made great strides to clean things up to a point where I'd say it's way less than 1%. We should just keep in mind that we're talking about HPD, not the LAPD or even NYPD. We've never had any Rodney King or "broomstick" incidents around here. As for the military? Well it's more like 100% when talking about combat forces...not corrupt, just dirtbags because that's what's required to do what needs to be done.
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A lot of the stereotyping is based on big city law enforcement from the 70's to the 90's. Most departments have made great strides to clean things up to a point where I'd say it's way less than 1%. We should just keep in mind that we're talking about HPD, not the LAPD or even NYPD. We've never had any Rodney King or "broomstick" incidents around here. As for the military? Well it's more like 100% when talking about combat forces...not corrupt, just dirtbags because that's what's required to do what needs to be done.
"We've never had any Rodney King or "broomstick" incidents around here."
That you know of.
Also, you're saying a 100% of combat forces are dirtbags? Every infantry Marine and Army soldier, the fighter pilot, and even the Navy gunner? Might as well throw in the Coast Guard too then huh? Hey, I know... you said 100% of combat forces so you might as well throw in the HPD swat teams since "combat forces" means "Those forces whose primary missions are to participate in combat."
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As for the military? Well it's more like 100% when talking about combat forces...not corrupt, just dirtbags because that's what's required to do what needs to be done.
I seriously hope you have misspoken on this and rephrase.
To call "combat forces" dirtbags for what I have done and what many others continue to do for you and yours is probably one of the most degrading things I've heard.
So, Special Forces, SEALS, infantryman, are dirtbags.....? Because true men chose one of the most honorable professions in existence and some sacrifice all, we get the privilege to be called dirtbags....
It doesn't even have to be combat forces that engage in combat anymore, I've seen my fair share of mechanics and clerks killed in Iraq, so are they dirtbags too ?
Do we or the combat arms do the "dirty" jobs, well yes, I will concede on that.
It seems obvious you are PD ( maybe prior service) and I commend you for it.
I have a question for you; what would you consider your fellow law enforcement brothers with whom I have participated in counter-drug operates with? Combat forces have a particular skill set and train with law enforcement more than you know. So, are the officers I've served with dirtbags?
Below is one of your own quotes-
.I'm not sure if you're serious and really want to know or just trying to bait a response........
These are just simple examples, but I think the easiest way to understand would be to stop trying to apply civilian ideas of how things work.
As you said yourself, DON'T EVER apply civilian ideas to HOW THINGS WORK.
As stated in the beginning, I really hope calling "combat forces" dirtbags was not your intent. :grrr:
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The armed forces is no more an honorable profession than any other. Honor is earned by the individual, not given because they hold a certain job. There are plenty of people who have done things to contradict the idea that the job is honorable and vice versa. Its the person, not the job.
And while his wording was poor, I get his point. Who make better fighters? The respectful, polite guys, or the aggressive, confident, pugnacious types that many would characterize as douchebags?
You can't ignore that fact. Dirtbags? No. But you can't deny that the forces attract aggressive, very confident (some might be arrogant even) and pugnacious people. Its what the job is.
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The armed forces is no more an honorable profession than any other. Honor is earned by the individual, not given because they hold a certain job. There are plenty of people who have done things to contradict the idea that the job is honorable and vice versa. Its the person, not the job.
And while his wording was poor, I get his point. Who make better fighters? The respectful, polite guys, or the aggressive, confident, pugnacious types that many would characterize as douchebags?
You can't ignore that fact. Dirtbags? No. But you can't deny that the forces attract aggressive, very confident (some might be arrogant even) and pugnacious people. Its what the job is.
I agree with some of your points; honor is earned and it is not given (especially by their profession).
I do, along with the majority of the public hold certain professions in high regard; mlitary, police, firefighter, teacher to name a few. I get into this arguement with my liberal relatives all the time; am I better than them, absolutely not. Do I point out that the public recognizes our sacrifices and we have a different life, hell yes!
Like I tell my accountant cousin, when Lowes gives a 10% discount for being a CPA , give me a call.
Again, military members are not better, but soooo different.
Are the young 19 year old infantryman arrogant and pugnacious, again absolutely. Then again, how many 19 year olds aren't arrogant and pugnacious??? Do they stay that way, not really.
One of my Special Forces friends is probably one of the most intelligent, gentle, caring and well liked man I know and has a high kill count at the same time. Is he a douchebag??
Agree or not; are combat arms guys arrogant assholes, yeah ok... Are we dirtbags or douchebags, hell no.... no more than you are !
I get what you're saying, but just like you had to point out a few things. Gotta love the debate, now its time to go play with Playdoh with my daughter O0
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The armed forces is no more an honorable profession than any other. Honor is earned by the individual, not given because they hold a certain job. There are plenty of people who have done things to contradict the idea that the job is honorable and vice versa. Its the person, not the job.
And while his wording was poor, I get his point. Who make better fighters? The respectful, polite guys, or the aggressive, confident, pugnacious types that many would characterize as douchebags?
You can't ignore that fact. Dirtbags? No. But you can't deny that the forces attract aggressive, very confident (some might be arrogant even) and pugnacious people. Its what the job is.
Hmm not sure it's something that can be generalized.
Some of the classiest people I know are military. Yes my friends are confident, intelligent, smart and capable.
Very polite and respectful too... "dirtbags" just doesn't match. I speak for the guys I know and I'm sure there are exceptions somewhere.
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My two cents to the conversation. The military (which I am a proud U.S. Army veteran) is the very entity of the government that protects and defends the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They are the very ones that put their lives on the line to protect and defend our rights and liberty. There are all kinds of men and women that comprise our military forces, and when called upon, they realize they may pay the ultimate price for our nation, and that takes a dedicated, motivated and strong willed individual. Also, especially the ones who haven't served and walked in their shoes, sort of speak, the nation as a whole, owes them a sincere bit of gratitude for the job they do and the sacrifice they give and have gave.
Lets not forget the oath our young men and women take when they make this commitment to serve our nation: I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
There are the 1% of bad apples in any profession and that is what gets publicized in the media, not the 99% of the good guys. Our military, just like law enforcement, generally are highly trained, well disciplined individuals that conduct themselves with the utmost honor and integrity. Even some of our most trusted individuals at our top agencies, with the highest level security clearance have sold high valued military secrets to foreign governments. That again is the 1%. JMHO
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I agree with some of your points; honor is earned and it is not given (especially by their profession).
I do, along with the majority of the public hold certain professions in high regard; mlitary, police, firefighter, teacher to name a few. I get into this arguement with my liberal relatives all the time; am I better than them, absolutely not. Do I point out that the public recognizes our sacrifices and we have a different life, hell yes!
Like I tell my accountant cousin, when Lowes gives a 10% discount for being a CPA , give me a call.
Again, military members are not better, but soooo different.
Are the young 19 year old infantryman arrogant and pugnacious, again absolutely. Then again, how many 19 year olds aren't arrogant and pugnacious??? Do they stay that way, not really.
One of my Special Forces friends is probably one of the most intelligent, gentle, caring and well liked man I know and has a high kill count at the same time. Is he a douchebag??
Agree or not; are combat arms guys arrogant assholes, yeah ok... Are we dirtbags or douchebags, hell no.... no more than you are !
I get what you're saying, but just like you had to point out a few things. Gotta love the debate, now its time to go play with Playdoh with my daughter O0
wasnt trying to say that at all. i thought i had gone out of my way to not that the whole dirtbag association was wrong.
and of course your friends in the military are cool guys. you wouldnt make friends with the guys you thought were total dicks!
of course, i would also like to point out that the main reason people give out military discounts is because it makes them look good.
I'd also like to throw out an opinion that will likely be unpopular. our current military actions have nothing to do with defending my rights or liberties, and everything to do with retaliatory punishment. we arent being invaded, we arent being oppressed and our rights are not being threatened by terrorists. we are there solely to show them that you dont fuck with us. period. they may one day defend my rights and freedoms, but i think if we're ever in a situation where that's such, im probably getting drafted anyways.
hate me all you want, but that's my thoughts.
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wasnt trying to say that at all. i thought i had gone out of my way to not that the whole dirtbag association was wrong.
and of course your friends in the military are cool guys. you wouldnt make friends with the guys you thought were total dicks!
of course, i would also like to point out that the main reason people give out military discounts is because it makes them look good.
I'd also like to throw out an opinion that will likely be unpopular. our current military actions have nothing to do with defending my rights or liberties, and everything to do with retaliatory punishment. we arent being invaded, we arent being oppressed and our rights are not being threatened by terrorists. we are there solely to show them that you dont fuck with us. period. they may one day defend my rights and freedoms, but i think if we're ever in a situation where that's such, im probably getting drafted anyways.
hate me all you want, but that's my thoughts.
Everyone has an opinion but I think you are directing your frustration at the wrong target. Politicians set policy and the military follows orders, whether the public agrees or disagrees. Maybe that is your point and not directly towards our military. Many in Vietnam didn't want to be there and the public blamed them when they returned for politicians actions that put us there. Maybe you have the same view for current conflicts but it's not fair to put any fault on our dedicated men and women who serve proudly. I guess until one has bullets coming inbound at you, it's hard to appreciate the reality that you may not live another day, and then to have people sitting on their couches back home against you, is insult to injury.
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Everyone has an opinion but I think you are directing your frustration at the wrong target. Politicians set policy and the military follows orders, whether the public agrees or disagrees. Maybe that is your point and not directly towards our military. Many in Vietnam didn't want to be there and the public blamed them when they returned for politicians actions that put us there. Maybe you have the same view for current conflicts but it's not fair to put any fault on our dedicated men and women who serve proudly. I guess until one has bullets coming inbound at you, it's hard to appreciate the reality that you may not live another day, and then to have people sitting on their couches back home against you, is insult to injury.
its not frustration at all. its just my opinion that the whole "they defend our freedom" idea should be more correctly modified to "MAY defend our freedom". i respect the fact that they MAY defend my rights at some point, but i think its incorrect to say that they currently DO defend my rights.
im not saying that i have no care for people fighting in the middle east, or that they're a bunch of useless barbarians or anything. im not talking about the people, or fault, or anything. im not against them, or against their actions necessarily. im specifically talking about the idea that they're defending my rights, especially when some military people, not necessarily here, want you to kiss their ass. they may one day defend my rights. right now, they currently arent, as there currently isnt a threat to my rights beyond what happens in congress.
its like owning a gun. it MAY save my life. right now, it currently isnt saving my life.
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its not frustration at all. its just my opinion that the whole "they defend our freedom" idea should be more correctly modified to "MAY defend our freedom". i respect the fact that they MAY defend my rights at some point, but i think its incorrect to say that they currently DO defend my rights.
im not saying that i have no care for people fighting in the middle east, or that they're a bunch of useless barbarians or anything. im not talking about the people, or fault, or anything. im not against them, or against their actions necessarily. im specifically talking about the idea that they're defending my rights, especially when some military people, not necessarily here, want you to kiss their ass. they may one day defend my rights. right now, they currently arent, as there currently isnt a threat to my rights beyond what happens in congress.
its like owning a gun. it MAY save my life. right now, it currently isnt saving my life.
On December 7, 1941, I would bet you would want them to defend your rights, vice MAY defend. What if China attacked tomorrow, hypothetically, how about MAY defend vice WILL defend? Threats to your rights aren't necessarily something you have advance notice for.
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On December 7, 1941, I would bet you would want them to defend your rights, vice MAY defend. What if China attacked tomorrow, hypothetically, how about MAY defend vice WILL defend? Threats to your rights aren't necessarily something you have advance notice for.
by "may", i dont mean, if it happens, they may or may not, i mean "may" as in, they might never do it because we might never be attacked in my life time.
As in, they may never have to. not, they might decide not to if it comes down to it.