2aHawaii
General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: macsak on May 07, 2024, 08:04:26 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTNUtZ6-h7o
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There is no best pattern I would argue, each type has advantages and disadvantages. Stream, gel, or fog/mist each have drawbacks. If I had to choose a single one to have for all purposes I would probably go with a fog/mist pattern though, just have to pay attention to wind patterns. If I had it for an indoor situation I would consider the gel type so as to avoid exposing everyone inside.
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do you get to choose what you carry on the job?
or are you required to only use the department issue?
There is no best pattern I would argue, each type has advantages and disadvantages. Stream, gel, or fog/mist each have drawbacks. If I had to choose a single one to have for all purposes I would probably go with a fog/mist pattern though, just have to pay attention to wind patterns. If I had it for an indoor situation I would consider the gel type so as to avoid exposing everyone inside.
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do you get to choose what you carry on the job?
or are you required to only use the department issue?
I wonder if he's ever experienced any sort of pepper spray or tear gas.
Pepper spray sin't a gas. It's a liquid propellant that delivers capsaicin resin. It causes irritation and difficulty breathing with contact to the skin, eyes and mucous membranes.
The best method IMO is a stream. It has a longer reach so you don't have to be as close. It has better aim than a broad spray (doesn't get on people relatively near the target). It also delivers a more concentrated load of spray.
I think a fog might surprise someone and maybe make them pause, but it's probably not intense enough to incapacitate an attacker long enough to escape to safety.
Tear gas is a different animal completely. It contains solid particles that can actually scratch your eyes if rubbed, so it's better to rinse with water. Some ANTIFA protestors took milk to clean out their eyes, but I've never trusted that to be as safe.
When I went through gas mask training, we had to stand in a small house with our masks on while tear gas was released to test the seals on our masks. Then one at a time, we went up to the instructor, removed our masks, counted to 10 out loud, and left. I luckily didn't get hit by the gas when I took my mask off. However, on the bus back to the squadron HQ, I was sitting behind someone who opened their window. The draft blew the tear gas particles on his jacket into my face, so I got to experience the sensation AFTER my training was over. :rofl:
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i'm betting that they do this at the academy...
I wonder if he's ever experienced any sort of pepper spray or tear gas.
Pepper spray sin't a gas. It's a liquid propellant that delivers capsaicin resin. It causes irritation and difficulty breathing with contact to the skin, eyes and mucous membranes.
The best method IMO is a stream. It has a longer reach so you don't have to be as close. It has better aim than a broad spray (doesn't get on people relatively near the target). It also delivers a more concentrated load of spray.
I think a fog might surprise someone and maybe make them pause, but it's probably not intense enough to incapacitate an attacker long enough to escape to safety.
Tear gas is a different animal completely. It contains solid particles that can actually scratch your eyes if rubbed, so it's better to rinse with water. Some ANTIFA protestors took milk to clean out their eyes, but I've never trusted that to be as safe.
When I went through gas mask training, we had to stand in a small house with our masks on while tear gas was released to test the seals on our masks. Then one at a time, we went up to the instructor, removed our masks, counted to 10 out loud, and left. I luckily didn't get hit by the gas when I took my mask off. However, on the bus back to the squadron HQ, I was sitting behind someone who opened their window. The draft blew the tear gas particles on his jacket into my face, so I got to experience the sensation AFTER my training was over. :rofl:
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i'm betting that they do this at the academy...
I will offer some gel pepper spray to test. . . on you. . . ;D :rofl:
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The best pepper spray is the one in your pocket when you need it. In the real world, convenience is a significant factor.
Hence, I gifted small, lightweight Sabre spray units to my coworkers before I retired. I did not want to hear about any of my friends on the 6 o'clock news.
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When I went through gas mask training, we had to stand in a small house with our masks on while tear gas was released to test the seals on our masks. Then one at a time, we went up to the instructor, removed our masks, counted to 10 out loud, and left. I luckily didn't get hit by the gas when I took my mask off. However, on the bus back to the squadron HQ, I was sitting behind someone who opened their window. The draft blew the tear gas particles on his jacket into my face, so I got to experience the sensation AFTER my training was over. :rofl:
There are also those who are immune from this gas as well. There's a vid of a Marine who's in there with no mask, he's 1 of the instructors. While the others are wearing their mask, then doff it and then exit the room.
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I will offer some gel pepper spray to test. . . on you. . . ;D :rofl:
At least, this would be legal to test. Compared to Tasers.
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At least, this would be legal to test. Compared to Tasers.
I’m sure there’s a legal way to test tasers… specifically on you! ;D
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I’m sure there’s a legal way to test tasers… specifically on you! ;D
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I'd pay a dollar to see that....and shoot a viral tik tok video too.
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I'd pay a dollar to see that....and shoot a viral tik tok video too.
I'd seriously put way more $$$ on that. . . :rofl:
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Bear spray.
Because why use a foam or gel type when you can soak them head to toe.
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At Army Boot camp when they herded us into that shack with the tear gas the Drill sergeants told us to take off our masks and take a DEEP BREATH.
Then they told us to file one by one and walk briskly out of the shack. Those who ran were promptly grabbed and again told to WALK briskly toward the entrance. Rinse and repeat for the panicked ones who only made it harder for themselves.
Me? Because I was from Hawaii they made me do the hula for extra credit. Then I was allowed to walk out of the shack. :grrr:
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Bear spray.
Because why use a foam or gel type when you can soak them head to toe.
I'd pay for bear spray to test on macsak ;D
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The best method IMO is a stream. It has a longer reach so you don't have to be as close. It has better aim than a broad spray (doesn't get on people relatively near the target). It also delivers a more concentrated load of spray.
I think a fog might surprise someone and maybe make them pause, but it's probably not intense enough to incapacitate an attacker long enough to escape to safety.
The reason I said I would prefer a fogger is because if you miss someone with a stream then there is a good chance you have no effect. With a fogger you can let out a whole cloud and they will get hit with some of it. Get some on the skin, the eyes and the lungs. The main problem is the wind can be your enemy, but it can also be your friend, the cloud can travel pretty far, even 100 feet.
Pepper spray is more effective than CS gas generally speaking.
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The reason I said I would prefer a fogger is because if you miss someone with a stream then there is a good chance you have no effect. With a fogger you can let out a whole cloud and they will get hit with some of it. Get some on the skin, the eyes and the lungs. The main problem is the wind can be your enemy, but it can also be your friend, the cloud can travel pretty far, even 100 feet.
Pepper spray is more effective than CS gas generally speaking.
Getting "hit with some of it " is not as effective, if at all. If being attacked, you need to incapacitate, not irritate.
If you use a handful of gravel because you think you might miss with a large single rock, you deserve what comes after.
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I'm interested in to see how that bang stick thing will do. It does contain PAVA, which has been known to cause permanent damage, compared to OC. Guess we would have to wait for bad guys lawyer.
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Getting "hit with some of it " is not as effective, if at all. If being attacked, you need to incapacitate, not irritate.
If you use a handful of gravel because you think you might miss with a large single rock, you deserve what comes after.
But hitting with some of your shot is more effective than missing all of your shot. I got exposed once from about 100+ feet away. It burned but I could still see alright however I was coughing and that would make it difficult to give chase.
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I'm interested in to see how that bang stick thing will do. It does contain PAVA, which has been known to cause permanent damage, compared to OC. Guess we would have to wait for bad guys lawyer.
OC does have a small risk of permanent scratches to the cornea from the grit. Don't know how that compares to the bang stick though
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But hitting with some of your shot is more effective than missing all of your shot. I got exposed once from about 100+ feet away. It burned but I could still see alright however I was coughing and that would make it difficult to give chase.
If you're carrying a can of spray that is supposed to be effective at beyond 12 feet, you're probably in a law enforcement uniform and thinking about crowd control.
So, if you can't hit the target at 7-12 feet, you might want to learn self-administered first aid.
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OC does have a small risk of permanent scratches to the cornea from the grit. Don't know how that compares to the bang stick though
Google.
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I’m sure there’s a legal way to test tasers… specifically on you! ;D
Having done CS, OC, and Taser, I'd rather get tasered...as long as I don't fall on concrete. It doesn't hurt and you're back to normal when the power is off. CS is a garden hose of snot for five minutes. OC burns bad for about 30 minutes.
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Having done CS, OC, and Taser, I'd rather get tasered...as long as I don't fall on concrete. It doesn't hurt and you're back to normal when the power is off. CS is a garden hose of snot for five minutes. OC burns bad for about 30 minutes.
And you still can feel the effects as they diminish for the rest of the day. I mean not super uncomfortable 5 hours later, but it's noticeable that you aren't back to your normal state.
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Stream is the best general purpose type over fog, spray/cone. It's goes father, less blowback, and limits exposure to bystanders. You don't want to use a fogger on the bus or in a room with yourself and bystanders. A spray wouldn't be ideal either. Gel can go further and is a lower risk for bystanders, but isn't as effective and needs more time to take effect.
OC has a very small chance to be lethal to some people. Those with heart conditions and breathing impairments. One of the trainers in Hawaii had a student die from exposure due to not stating a heart condition when required to.
A stream could pierce the eye if used too close, think it's within a foot. But that scenario shouldn't happen unless you're in a really bad situation where it would be justified.
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Having done CS, OC, and Taser, I'd rather get tasered...as long as I don't fall on concrete. It doesn't hurt and you're back to normal when the power is off. CS is a garden hose of snot for five minutes. OC burns bad for about 30 minutes.
I've been "collaterally" caught by CS. In the riots in Seattle. Thought we were ok in the higher levels a parking garage when the deployed the CS. Well, the breeze brought it our way :rofl:
And you still can feel the effects as they diminish for the rest of the day. I mean not super uncomfortable 5 hours later, but it's noticeable that you aren't back to your normal state.
you're tough. . . promise we'll not let you faceplant
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If you're carrying a can of spray that is supposed to be effective at beyond 12 feet, you're probably in a law enforcement uniform and thinking about crowd control.
So, if you can't hit the target at 7-12 feet, you might want to learn self-administered first aid.
Fumbling in the dark with a small can it wouldn't be hard to mistake which angle you have it facing and miss completely, that's why a fogger has an advantage. A few degrees off with a fogger and you still hit them with some spray. The fogger is going to float in the air a little longer too so if the attacker closes his mouth to the stream he doesn't breathe it in but if he walks through the cloud he will have to take a breath sooner or later and then he will start coughing.
Each type has its advantages and disadvantages.
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Fumbling in the dark with a small can it wouldn't be hard to mistake which angle you have it facing and miss completely, that's why a fogger has an advantage. A few degrees off with a fogger and you still hit them with some spray. The fogger is going to float in the air a little longer too so if the attacker closes his mouth to the stream he doesn't breathe it in but if he walks through the cloud he will have to take a breath sooner or later and then he will start coughing.
Each type has its advantages and disadvantages.
Show me a fogger that's effective when pointed in a direction other than towards the threat.
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Show me a fogger that's effective when pointed in a direction other than towards the threat.
The fogger is a wider spray so which means you don't have to be as perfect with your aim.
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The fogger is a wider spray so which means you don't have to be as perfect with your aim.
So, what's the effective arc for a pepper "fogger" at 7-12 feet?
Then compare that to the effective arc at 7-12 feet for pepper spray?
If you don't know the numbers, then you can't possible be arguing objectively.
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So, what's the effective arc for a pepper "fogger" at 7-12 feet?
Then compare that to the effective arc at 7-12 feet for pepper spray?
If you don't know the numbers, then you can't possible be arguing objectively.
Now you are just trolling. You might as well argue buckshot doesn't have a wider spread than a 5.56 ::)
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Now you are just trolling. You might as well argue buckshot doesn't have a wider spread than a 5.56 ::)
You believe 7-12 feet is a distance that's easy to miss?
Show me where I mentioned "spread". We're talking about effectiveness.
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You believe 7-12 feet is a distance that's easy to miss?
Show me where I mentioned "spread". We're talking about effectiveness.
People miss with a gun at 7-12 feet all the time.
Any amount of pepper spray is more effective than no pepper spray. If someone is attacking me I will take giving them a breathing problem even if I don't get them in the eyes over a complete miss.
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I could see someone missing initially at 12 feet with a stream. Most people have never used the spray before, and some probably don't know how to operate it. Add in the eyes are a small target and it gets harder under stress.
After a second I'm sure people will get the spray on target. But it would give the attacker time to block it.
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I could see someone missing initially at 12 feet with a stream. Most people have never used the spray before, and some probably don't know how to operate it. Add in the eyes are a small target and it gets harder under stress.
After a second I'm sure people will get the spray on target. But it would give the attacker time to block it.
The small ones only have about 5 seconds of spray so even more so you have to make sure you don't miss.
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1 has to remember that each types spray is also different. The spray types that fit in ones pocket or purse has a much smaller spray pattern compared to the "foggers" that are used for crowd control. The ones you can fit in your pocket aren't going to hit anything from 12 feet away. Prob about 4 feet at best. Where as a stream type gel, you could reach 12 feet (point can up), but hitting in the eyes/face is another story.
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you get da schmall one...
The small ones only have about 5 seconds of spray so even more so you have to make sure you don't miss.
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The small ones only have about 5 seconds of spray so even more so you have to make sure you don't miss.
Hypothetically, using common sense, would you not agree that "about 5 seconds of spray" is going to be more effective
against an attacker at about 8-10 feet than "about 5 seconds of spray" at 8-10 feet in a fog type dispersal?
If you're off target, you have 5 seconds to adjust the stream and be on target. With a fog, you're sending the spray out in a wide pattern, meaning you have much less concentration in whatever "fog" reached the intended target.
I'd rather have 5 seconds of concentrated spray than 5 seconds of widely dispersed "fog". i don't think I'd miss badly enough that i can't hit the attacker within 1-2 seconds of it being released.
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Hypothetically, using common sense, would you not agree that "about 5 seconds of spray" is going to be more effective
against an attacker at about 8-10 feet than "about 5 seconds of spray" at 8-10 feet in a fog type dispersal?
If you're off target, you have 5 seconds to adjust the stream and be on target. With a fog, you're sending the spray out in a wide pattern, meaning you have much less concentration in whatever "fog" reached the intended target.
I'd rather have 5 seconds of concentrated spray than 5 seconds of widely dispersed "fog". i don't think I'd miss badly enough that i can't hit the attacker within 1-2 seconds of it being released.
Maybe if the wind were against you.
The fogger is going to do a better job of saturating the air meaning it is going to be breathed in. The stream is great if you hit them in the eyes or right above the eyes where it will run into the eyes but if they close their mouth they aren't going to breathe it in much.
A fogger will still get more than enough to cause someone to have trouble seeing at close distances. At a certain point, more does not translate to better effect, your eyes are going to be on fire and shut either way.
In the end there is no right or wrong, just drawbacks and benefits of each type. I would recommend a fogger in most instances but you are free to choose the one you like best. I would only recommend a stream indoors or in windy areas.
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In the end there is no right or wrong, just drawbacks and benefits of each type. I would recommend a fogger in most instances but you are free to choose the one you like best. I would only recommend a stream indoors or in windy areas.
Carrying a fogger for a civilian isn't economical. It's too bulky. I mean, even most HPD doesn't carry it on their duty belts. I've mainly seen them carry it on a drop leg and that was for specific events, not daily patrol.
Having a fogger in a 500 sq foot condo also may be an issue. The 12 feet is hard to apply due to lack of space.
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Carrying a fogger for a civilian isn't economical. It's too bulky. I mean, even most HPD doesn't carry it on their duty belts. I've mainly seen them carry it on a drop leg and that was for specific events, not daily patrol.
Having a fogger in a 500 sq foot condo also may be an issue. The 12 feet is hard to apply due to lack of space.
Fogger is just a spray pattern. There are small pepper spray canisters that produce a fog pattern.
This is about the same size the police carry on their belts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F9a8KGbxRs&t=79s
I think what you are talking about is riot control size units.
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which brand are you issued?
Fogger is just a spray pattern. There are small pepper spray canisters that produce a fog pattern.
This is about the same size the police carry on their belts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F9a8KGbxRs&t=79s
I think what you are talking about is riot control size units.
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Fogger is just a spray pattern. There are small pepper spray canisters that produce a fog pattern.
This is about the same size the police carry on their belts.
I think what you are talking about is riot control size units.
From your video transcript:
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a liquid spray will always go farther than a fogger spray that's just how
it is foggers dissipate more they have more of a
atmospheric effect they're not as directional as a liquid spray and
because of that liquid sprays will always go farther than a fogger
everything else being equal so yes um it's definitely the longest
range fogger spray that's uh that's without question and i like this spray a
lot it does a really good job saturating the area and making an
inhospitable environment between a user and an attacker it just creates almost
like a wall of nastiness between a defender and an attacker that doesn't
mean you don't need to hit them directly in the face hitting them directly in the
face is ideal and that is what should be done however some indirect exposure from
this could uh discourage mr or mrs bad guy from continuing their criminal activity
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That review backs up my opinion. To stop an attacker, a stream is "OPTIMAL."
To neutralize an attacker. a fogger isn't the best choice. You need to deliver a sufficient load of pepper spray to the attacker's facial region.
Maybe a fogger is effective enough to disperse a crowd, but to stop a threat who intends to cause you harm, an "inhospitable environment" is just an annoyance.
This topic asks Which Pepper Spray Has The Best Spray Pattern? The answer is "a stream."
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Fogger is just a spray pattern. There are small pepper spray canisters that produce a fog pattern.
This is about the same size the police carry on their belts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F9a8KGbxRs&t=79s
I think what you are talking about is riot control size units.
Yes, the ones that are the size of the toilet spray for smell.
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Fogger has its uses. It'd be great against a mob or in rural areas if the person knows how to use it properly. Might be harder to defend against too.
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From your video transcript:
That review backs up my opinion. To stop an attacker, a stream is "OPTIMAL."
To neutralize an attacker. a fogger isn't the best choice. You need to deliver a sufficient load of pepper spray to the attacker's facial region.
Maybe a fogger is effective enough to disperse a crowd, but to stop a threat who intends to cause you harm, an "inhospitable environment" is just an annoyance.
This topic asks Which Pepper Spray Has The Best Spray Pattern? The answer is "a stream."
Hard to chase someone when you are caughing some pepper spray and have trouble seeing. Up close a fogger will still deliver a sufficient dose of pepper spray to make it difficult to see. A stream may do that slightly better but unless you get it in his mouth or nose you aren't going to get that coughing/breathing difficulty.
There is no one superior type, just a better one for the situation. In most situations that will be a fogger, in some that will be a stream. But you are free to choose a stream over a fogger if you want to go that route, just be aware of the limitations.
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Hard to chase someone when you are caughing some pepper spray and have trouble seeing.
Is that based on personal experience, or just another unscientific opinion?
Up close a fogger will still deliver a sufficient dose of pepper spray to make it difficult to see. A stream may do that slightly better but unless you get it in his mouth or nose you aren't going to get that coughing/breathing difficulty.
Same question: Is that based on personal experience, or just another unscientific opinion?
There is no one superior type, just a better one for the situation. In most situations that will be a fogger, in some that will be a stream. But you are free to choose a stream over a fogger if you want to go that route, just be aware of the limitations.
Ridiculous. You still think a fogger is better than a stream in most situations, when your own video post says a stream is optimal. Maybe you don't know what "optimal" means?
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adding nuance...
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Hard to chase someone when you are caughing some pepper spray and have trouble seeing. Up close a fogger will still deliver a sufficient dose of pepper spray to make it difficult to see. A stream may do that slightly better but unless you get it in his mouth or nose you aren't going to get that coughing/breathing difficulty.
There is no one superior type, just a better one for the situation. In most situations that will be a fogger, in some that will be a stream. But you are free to choose a stream over a fogger if you want to go that route, just be aware of the limitations.
You're also forgetting what's available in the brick n mortar market. Many OC buyers aren't educated enough people and will buy what they find on the shelf. As ordering online, many places like Amazon won't ship. This means, regardless of what they feel is optimal, they have to buy what's in the stores. I've never seen a fogger for sale to civilians at any store. It's either spray or stream. Granted, this was years ago for a few years. I never checked recently as I get mine from else where.
Then add in people will google "pepper SPRAY". And buy what ever comes up if they can ship to HI. And even when one googles that, often "pepper spray" is a general accepted term and it's a stream. I went on Amazon and the first few rows were pepper "sprays", but when you read the fine print, they're all streams.
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You are arguing just to argue. Have fun with yourself. Take my advice or don't, I don't care. Not like you are going to take it either way.,
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You're also forgetting what's available in the brick n mortar market. Many OC buyers aren't educated enough people and will buy what they find on the shelf. As ordering online, many places like Amazon won't ship. This means, regardless of what they feel is optimal, they have to buy what's in the stores. I've never seen a fogger for sale to civilians at any store. It's either spray or stream. Granted, this was years ago for a few years. I never checked recently as I get mine from else where.
Then add in people will google "pepper SPRAY". And buy what ever comes up if they can ship to HI. And even when one googles that, often "pepper spray" is a general accepted term and it's a stream. I went on Amazon and the first few rows were pepper "sprays", but when you read the fine print, they're all streams.
When I talk to people about pepper spray recommendations I explain the various options. You are right, not all options might be at any given store and any type is better than none.
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You are arguing just to argue. Have fun with yourself. Take my advice or don't, I don't care. Not like you are going to take it either way.,
i win.
:geekdanc:
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When I talk to people about pepper spray recommendations I explain the various options. You are right, not all options might be at any given store and any type is better than none.
I hope when you explain it to them, you keep it simple. To someone who trains in self defense might understand what's being said on this port. But to your everyday person, they might need something simple. Even guidance as in you tell them which to buy. I went to the stores with a few friends as it can be intimidating.
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I hope when you explain it to them, you keep it simple. To someone who trains in self defense might understand what's being said on this port. But to your everyday person, they might need something simple. Even guidance as in you tell them which to buy. I went to the stores with a few friends as it can be intimidating.
Indeed, I keep it basic otherwise it will be harder to remember.
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I took a OC instructor course this weekend and learned a few things.
Cone/Spray vs Stream
Advantage: large spray pattern, easier to breath in and disrupt breathing, might get through a n95 mask, skin inflamation takes effect faster
Disadvantage: might have a farther standoff distance, can hit nearby bystanders or yourself in the wind or in rooms.