2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: eyeeatingfish on February 19, 2025, 02:04:48 PM
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Trump said in a speech that Zelinsky started the war with Russia.
"“You’ve been there for three years. You should have ended it ... You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.”"
Then he cited an unknown poll saying Zelinsky's approval was at 4% despite a recent poll having his approval at 57%.
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-trump-war-zelenskyy-putin-7fe8c0c80b4e93e3bc079c621a44e8bb
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Meh. He's not wrong.
Putin wanted the land connecting Russia with Crimea. If you look at a map of the frontlines, the swath of land adjacent to Crimea northward is where the front lines are.
Ukraine could have easily swapped that land with land Russia controlled, or better yet, negotiated economic trades for rights to use that land. Without it, Crimea is inaccessible to Russia other than by air and sea.
Russia has military facilities in Crimea. Refusing to allow surface transportation between there and Russia is a huge problem for Putin.
When the other side wants something so badly but which you are not willing to bargain over, you don't leave the other side much choice if they really want it -- they will try to take it by force.
It was avoidable, but seeing how many billions of US dollars have been thrown at Ukraine, you have to wonder if that was their plan all along.
https://youtu.be/SJNRPAfcYYk
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https://youtube.com/shorts/knxJiyHInAU
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Putin wanted the land connecting Russia with Crimea.
Hold on a minute.
As Macsak would say, you forgot to make clear your explanation was, "in your opinion".
Putin never ever said the war in Ukraine was primarily to annex Crimea. I have on many occasions shared and even posted videos where Putin himself said what the objectives of the Ukrainian war were all about. Now Trump himself has at least made clear that Russia did not start this war, unlike what you as well as the neocons and imperialists alike similarly still try to put all the blame to Russia.
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Meh. He's not wrong.
Putin wanted the land connecting Russia with Crimea. If you look at a map of the frontlines, the swath of land adjacent to Crimea northward is where the front lines are.
Ukraine could have easily swapped that land with land Russia controlled, or better yet, negotiated economic trades for rights to use that land. Without it, Crimea is inaccessible to Russia other than by air and sea.
Russia has military facilities in Crimea. Refusing to allow surface transportation between there and Russia is a huge problem for Putin.
When the other side wants something so badly but which you are not willing to bargain over, you don't leave the other side much choice if they really want it -- they will try to take it by force.
It was avoidable, but seeing how many billions of US dollars have been thrown at Ukraine, you have to wonder if that was their plan all along.
So if Russia demanded a chunk of Alaska, we should negotiate to give it to them to avoid them attacking us? If we told Russia to pound sand and they invaded Russia, it would be our fault?
I just don't see Americans willing to give up land in that way.
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Hold on a minute.
As Macsak would say, you forgot to make clear your explanation was, "in your opinion".
Putin never ever said the war in Ukraine was primarily to annex Crimea. I have on many occasions shared and even posted videos where Putin himself said what the objectives of the Ukrainian war were all about. Now Trump himself has at least made clear that Russia did not start this war, unlike what you as well as the neocons and imperialists alike similarly still try to put all the blame to Russia.
As Macsak would reply, "Please show me where I said 'the war in Ukraine was primarily to annex Crimea.'"
Russia has been trying to regain control of Crimea for at least 20 years now. The country is now designated "occupied Crimea."
There's a long history of Putin attempting to annex Crimea through all sorts of referendums and replacement of government officials.
Up until the war starting, Crimea was considered a state under the jurisdiction of Ukraine.
So, I guess you'd be right that Putin never said 'the war in Ukraine was primarily to annex Crimea,' assuming he would ever say that. But iCrimea is undeniably a major objective that Putin's been fixated on for a long time. Annexing Crimea was still on his wish list.
Then there's the FACT that Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 which began the current war with Ukraine.
In February and March 2014, Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula,
part of Ukraine, and then annexed it. This took place in the relative
power vacuum[34] immediately following the Revolution of Dignity.
It marked the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War.
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So if Russia demanded a chunk of Alaska, we should negotiate to give it to them to avoid them attacking us? If we told Russia to pound sand and they invaded Russia, it would be our fault?
I just don't see Americans willing to give up land in that way.
More hypothetical hogwash.
Crimea has changed hands from USSR to Ukraine, so their sovereignty is not as solidified as Alaska. Do you know when Alaska became a territory and who owned it before the US?
The Alaska Purchase was the purchase of Alaska from the
Russian Empire by the United States for a sum of $7.2 million
in 1867 (equivalent to $129 million in 2023)[1]. On May 15 of
that year, the United States Senate ratified a bilateral treaty
that had been signed on March 30, and American sovereignty
became legally effective across the territory on October 18.
Russia would invite an international police action, probably via UN sanctions and military force, if they reneged on that treaty.
No such treaty exists between Ukraine and Russia regarding Crimea.
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Then there's the FACT that Russia invaded Crimea in 2014 which began the current war with Ukraine.
So, are you saying that Trump, myself, and many other anti-neocons and anti-imperialists are incorrect that it was Russia that started the Ukraine war according to your facts?
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So, are you saying that Trump, myself, and many other anti-neocons and anti-imperialists are incorrect that it was Russia that started the Ukraine war according to your facts?
I said what I said. It's plain English.
Show me where you're confused about Russia, Crimea and what started the war with Ukraine.
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Meh. He's not wrong.
Putin wanted the land connecting Russia with Crimea. If you look at a map of the frontlines, the swath of land adjacent to Crimea northward is where the front lines are.
Ukraine could have easily swapped that land with land Russia controlled, or better yet, negotiated economic trades for rights to use that land. Without it, Crimea is inaccessible to Russia other than by air and sea.
Russia has military facilities in Crimea. Refusing to allow surface transportation between there and Russia is a huge problem for Putin.
When the other side wants something so badly but which you are not willing to bargain over, you don't leave the other side much choice if they really want it -- they will try to take it by force.
It was avoidable, but seeing how many billions of US dollars have been thrown at Ukraine, you have to wonder if that was their plan all along.
https://youtu.be/SJNRPAfcYYk
So it seems like you are saying the war was started by Ukraine because they did not capitulate to the demands of the Russian invaders.
Wow! An apologist for Putin walks among us.
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So it seems like you are saying the war was started by Ukraine because they did not capitulate to the demands of the Russian invaders.
Wow! An apologist for Putin walks among us.
Stop with the histrionics. There's no need to call people names especially when you're misunderstanding what's being said.
Show me where i said Ukraine started the war. I've been pretty direct about Russia invading Crimea as the starting point.
What I'm saying is Ukraine had a choice to fight or make an effort to avoid fighting. They chose to fight, which drew the US and other nations into the conflict costing the US alone billions upon billions of tax payer dollars.
i wonder what Ukraine would have decided before 2014 if the US had not been willing to support them in an all-out, boots-on-the-ground war? Most people are smart enough not to jump into a fight they have no chance of winning. The better option is to strike a deal that both sides can live with short of destroying cities and killing hundreds of thousands of fighters and noncombatants not to mention the displacement of as many refugees fleeing the fighting.
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More hypothetical hogwash.
Crimea has changed hands from USSR to Ukraine, so their sovereignty is not as solidified as Alaska. Do you know when Alaska became a territory and who owned it before the US?
The Alaska Purchase was the purchase of Alaska from the
Russian Empire by the United States for a sum of $7.2 million
in 1867 (equivalent to $129 million in 2023)[1]. On May 15 of
that year, the United States Senate ratified a bilateral treaty
that had been signed on March 30, and American sovereignty
became legally effective across the territory on October 18.
Russia would invite an international police action, probably via UN sanctions and military force, if they reneged on that treaty.
No such treaty exists between Ukraine and Russia regarding Crimea.
Ukraine has been a sovereign country since 1991. Russia having once owner Ukraine hardly gives it a right to kill Ukrainians and retake the land. Even if they had some sort of legitimate dispute over Crimea, that clearly is irrelevant since they didn't stop once they took Crimea.
Regardless, there is no sane argument to support the idea that Ukraine started the war. Ukraine didn't attack Russian troops, they didn't invade Russia, nor did they threaten to attack Russia.
The Budapest Memorandum was an international agreement prohibited Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine. In exchange Ukraine gave up all of its nuclear weapons. So yes, a treaty existed.
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So it seems like you are saying the war was started by Ukraine because they did not capitulate to the demands of the Russian invaders.
Wow! An apologist for Putin walks among us.
I guess the allied powers started the war with Nazi Germany too...
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Ukraine has been a sovereign country since 1991. Russia having once owner Ukraine hardly gives it a right to kill Ukrainians and retake the land. Even if they had some sort of legitimate dispute over Crimea, that clearly is irrelevant since they didn't stop once they took Crimea.
Regardless, there is no sane argument to support the idea that Ukraine started the war. Ukraine didn't attack Russian troops, they didn't invade Russia, nor did they threaten to attack Russia.
The Budapest Memorandum was an international agreement prohibited Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine. In exchange Ukraine gave up all of its nuclear weapons. So yes, a treaty existed.
Show me where i said that.
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I guess the allied powers started the war with Nazi Germany too...
Another snarky comment based on nothing anyone actually said.
Do you ever get tired of starting arguments over nothing?
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Russia just wanted to take over Ukraine. That's all there is to it.
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Russia just wanted to take over Ukraine. That's all there is to it.
That's a simple take designed to appeal to simple folks.
The Deep State overthrew the Ukrainian government in order to pick a fight with Russia, bankrupt them with a proxy war, and break them up so that western oligarchs could steal their resources.
Interestingly enough one of our local billionaires was a huge player in the Orange color revolution that put a bunch of Ukranian Nazis in power. Honolulu Civil Beat owner Pierre Omidyar.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/pierre-omidyar-funding-of-pro-regime-change-networks-and-partnerships-with-cia-cutouts/255337/
Keep that in mind the next time you read a CB article trying to use moral justifications in order to take away our gun rights
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Ukraine is corrupt.
Plain and simple.
Their actions and dealings in the past have led to Russia annexing Crimea and other regions prior to their invasion.
If the US had enemies at the gates they would have done the same thing if they were in Russia's shoes.
The terrain at the Ukraine/Russia border is just flat all the way to Moscow. Nobody in their right mind is going to sit around and do nothing while the enemy is literally at the gates.
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Show me where i said that.
You said "Meh. He's not wrong." in response to Trump's quote which included Trump saying Ukraine started the war.
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Another snarky comment based on nothing anyone actually said.
Do you ever get tired of starting arguments over nothing?
So you call my point hogwash and then get offended at some light snarkery? :stopjack:
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If the US had enemies at the gates they would have done the same thing if they were in Russia's shoes.
The terrain at the Ukraine/Russia border is just flat all the way to Moscow. Nobody in their right mind is going to sit around and do nothing while the enemy is literally at the gates.
We would have invaded a non-hostile sovereign nation, bombed civilian targets, assassinated our own citizens who disagreed with the war, etc.?
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We would have invaded a non-hostile sovereign nation, bombed civilian targets, assassinated our own citizens who disagreed with the war, etc.?
We invaded Iraq a 2nd time for similar.
Bad intel aka no reason to invade
non-hostile nation to the USA
bombed civilians whether on purpose or accident
What we didn't do is assassinate our own citizens...that you know of anyways.
Then there's the war in A-stan. We were at war with the T-ban/AQ and not the Afgan Government. I mean the ANA helped us.
So invaded a non-hostile nation
Bombed civilians, whether on purpose or accident.
What we didn't do is assassinate our own citizens.
Then there's vietnam and see above, same thing. But our citizens were assassinated and is public knowledge.
Desert Storm, we were asked for help when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq.
WW2 we were attacked by the Japs.
WW1 the allies needed our help and we went in after saying no only toward the end.
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You said "Meh. He's not wrong." in response to Trump's quote which included Trump saying Ukraine started the war.
Thanks for telling me what I posted.
I don't have the amnesia you do, but I guess it's better than you lying about what I said.
You lying about what Trump said is enough.
This is what Trump said:
“You’ve been there for three years. You should have ended it....
You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.”
He unfortunately included the word "started' in his statement, but he did not state "Ukraine started the war." He was trying to say that the entire war was avoidable -- which it was. His comment is about how Ukraine's president did nothing to prevent the war. in effect, if you have the chance to stop a war from happening and do nothing, then you do have some blame for letting it begin. He's the President of a major nation, not some guy in the NYC subway refusing to get involved when a thug is harassing passengers. He has a duty to use diplomacy.
Explain what steps Ukraine took to dissuade Russia from invading back in 2022 other than empty threats of military force.
Trump showed little patience for Ukraine’s objections to being
excluded from the talks. He said repeatedly that Ukraine’s leaders
never should have allowed the war to begin, suggesting the
country should have been willing to make concessions to Russia
before the 2022 invasion.
https://time.com/7234211/russia-us-talks-ukraine-saudi-arabia/
#Nuance
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Thanks for telling me what I posted.
I don't have the amnesia you do, but I guess it's better than you lying about what I said.
You lying about what Trump said is enough.
This is what Trump said:
He unfortunately included the word "started' in his statement, but he did not state "Ukraine started the war." He was trying to say that the entire war was avoidable -- which it was. His comment is about how Ukraine's president did nothing to prevent the war. in effect, if you have the chance to stop a war from happening and do nothing, then you do have some blame for letting it begin. He's the President of a major nation, not some guy in the NYC subway refusing to get involved when a thug is harassing passengers. He has a duty to use diplomacy.
Explain what steps Ukraine took to dissuade Russia from invading back in 2022 other than empty threats of military force.
https://time.com/7234211/russia-us-talks-ukraine-saudi-arabia/
#Nuance
What happens when a country elects an actor/dancer as a leader. I mean, he does at least have XP running a TV production company, but he's not ready to play with the big boyz.
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We would have invaded a non-hostile sovereign nation, bombed civilian targets, assassinated our own citizens who disagreed with the war, etc.?
No, and you know the US wouldn't do that. I'm just trying to say that nobody in their right mind would sit back and do nothing while the enemy woos a neighbor that is corrupt.
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lul
https://x.com/bennyjohnson/status/1893099177783001431
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lul
https://x.com/bennyjohnson/status/1893099177783001431
I like how the fake news still thinks negative on what he's doing. Canada and Mexico tariffs, now this. Look who caved again.
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We invaded Iraq a 2nd time for similar.
Bad intel aka no reason to invade
non-hostile nation to the USA
bombed civilians whether on purpose or accident
What we didn't do is assassinate our own citizens...that you know of anyways.
Then there's the war in A-stan. We were at war with the T-ban/AQ and not the Afgan Government. I mean the ANA helped us.
So invaded a non-hostile nation
Bombed civilians, whether on purpose or accident.
What we didn't do is assassinate our own citizens.
Then there's vietnam and see above, same thing. But our citizens were assassinated and is public knowledge.
Desert Storm, we were asked for help when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq.
WW2 we were attacked by the Japs.
WW1 the allies needed our help and we went in after saying no only toward the end.
I will not defend the war in Vietnam or in Iraq as just wars but I do not think they are good analogues to Russia's justification for attacking Ukraine. The goals alone are vastly different between Russia's attack and the US intervention in any of those wars.
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Thanks for telling me what I posted.
I don't have the amnesia you do, but I guess it's better than you lying about what I said.
You lying about what Trump said is enough.
You asked me where you said something, then I post it, and your response is to tell me you know what you said. Then you call me a lair and post Trump's quote which I already posted...
This is what Trump said:
He unfortunately included the word "started' in his statement, but he did not state "Ukraine started the war." He was trying to say that the entire war was avoidable -- which it was.
He didn't need to state "Ukraine started the war", given the grammar and context there is no other country he could have been referring to. If Trump had come out the next day and said "I misspoke, I was talking fast and I said something incorrect which is not what I meant to say" then I could give Trump the benefit of the doubt but did the mature leader of our country do that? No he doubled down with his comments.
He has a duty to use diplomacy.
Diplomacy? You mean capitulating to a bully country trying to take your land? I wonder how diplomatic the USA would be if Russia demanded part of the USA. You expect Ukraine to beg for their life and face being back under the thumb of a dictator rather than fight for their freedom then blame them if they choose to fight for their freedom.
Explain what steps Ukraine took to dissuade Russia from invading back in 2022 other than empty threats of military force.
https://time.com/7234211/russia-us-talks-ukraine-saudi-arabia/
#Nuance
Russia wanted to take over Ukraine. What steps could Ukraine have taken to dissuade Russia other than a full surrender? You are essentially engaging in victim blaming. The robbery victim didn't do enough to convince the robber not to beat him up when taking his wallet.
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No, and you know the US wouldn't do that. I'm just trying to say that nobody in their right mind would sit back and do nothing while the enemy woos a neighbor that is corrupt.
Ukraine does have issues with corruption, I agree with that point but it isn't like Russia is the noble nation invading to stop some terrible injustice.
When you say an enemy woos a corrupt neighbor, do you mean to suggest Russia's enemy was wooing Ukraine? Ukraine wasn't trying to join NATO, it was trying to be its own country instead of being under the thumb of Russia. In the end, all Russia has done is make their enemies (NATO) stronger and make Russia weaker.
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lul
https://x.com/bennyjohnson/status/1893099177783001431
Giving mineral rights to the USA in exchange for protection from annihilation seems quite reasonable.
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I like how the fake news still thinks negative on what he's doing. Canada and Mexico tariffs, now this. Look who caved again.
Canada and Mexico really didn't cave.
What Trump claimed as a victory for Canada was something Canada had already planned to do, Trump just acted like he accomplished something.
As for Mexico, it was a two way agreement. Mexico had to step up enforcement and so did the USA.
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Canada and Mexico really didn't cave.
What Trump claimed as a victory for Canada was something Canada had already planned to do, Trump just acted like he accomplished something.
As for Mexico, it was a two way agreement. Mexico had to step up enforcement and so did the USA.
Really?
So, why didn't Canada "plan" to do what Trump wanted while Biden was occupying the White House?
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Really?
So, why didn't Canada "plan" to do what Trump wanted while Biden was occupying the White House?
Don't know. Maybe they were two steps ahead of Trump and saved it in case Trump played the tariff card?
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Don't know. Maybe they were two steps ahead of Trump and saved it in case Trump played the tariff card?
The only part of that which sounds true is "Don't know."
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Canada and Mexico really didn't cave.
What Trump claimed as a victory for Canada was something Canada had already planned to do, Trump just acted like he accomplished something.
As for Mexico, it was a two way agreement. Mexico had to step up enforcement and so did the USA.
Wrong. Canadas plan to help the US was turned down in their parliament under an emergency vote. There was no alternative deal. So the deal under Brandon was dead. Now it's alive again under Trump.
You need to read beyond headlines sometimes.
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The only part of that which sounds true is "Don't know."
I don't know, and neither do you. Difference is that I am not jumping to any conclusions.
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Wrong. Canadas plan to help the US was turned down in their parliament under an emergency vote. There was no alternative deal. So the deal under Brandon was dead. Now it's alive again under Trump.
You need to read beyond headlines sometimes.
I suggest you take your own advice
"While Trump said Canada had agreed to take a more aggressive posture on its U.S. border in exchange for a suspension of tariffs, Canada’s parliament had already passed a new border security and drug interdiction bill in December."
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/trump-tariffs-what-concessions-from-mexico-canada-really-mean-rcna190784
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I suggest you take your own advice
"While Trump said Canada had agreed to take a more aggressive posture on its U.S. border in exchange for a suspension of tariffs, Canada’s parliament had already passed a new border security and drug interdiction bill in December."
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/trump-tariffs-what-concessions-from-mexico-canada-really-mean-rcna190784
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-pledges-beefed-up-border-immigration-restrictions-appease-trump-2024-12-17/
Note the part how they worked with Trump before he even took office and with his Border Czar. Many "google" articles all state the same thing. Some even going back to Nov once he won.
Under Brandon, all they had was an agreement about asylum seekers.
Nice try. Thanks for playing.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-pledges-beefed-up-border-immigration-restrictions-appease-trump-2024-12-17/
Note the part how they worked with Trump before he even took office and with his Border Czar. Many "google" articles all state the same thing. Some even going back to Nov once he won.
Under Brandon, all they had was an agreement about asylum seekers.
Nice try. Thanks for playing.
Nice goalpost moving.
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Nice goalpost moving.
Hahhahhha enter the copying tactic.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Hahhahhha enter the copying tactic.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
I am not allowed to call you out for goalpost moving when you do it?
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I am not allowed to call you out for goalpost moving when you do it?
SWOOOOSSSHHHHHHH. Hahhahaha.