2aHawaii

General Topics => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: hvybarrels on September 02, 2025, 12:41:20 AM

Title: Old School
Post by: hvybarrels on September 02, 2025, 12:41:20 AM
They used to instruct soldiers not to use the sights and instead shoot from instinct. A couple seals tried it and got surprisingly good results.

https://youtu.be/I3cEbU8yVZ0

OG training film

https://youtu.be/jP7J-JNSUu4

These techniques came from W.E. Fairbairn, a British soldier who studied Japanese martial arts in the 1920s. Apparently he also invented the concept of the SWAT team. Fascinating guy.

https://youtu.be/bzIdO1VEbFk
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on September 02, 2025, 10:38:01 AM
They used to instruct soldiers not to use the sights and instead shoot from instinct. A couple seals tried it and got surprisingly good results.

https://youtu.be/I3cEbU8yVZ0

OG training film

https://youtu.be/jP7J-JNSUu4

These techniques came from W.E. Fairbairn, a British soldier who studied Japanese martial arts in the 1920s. Apparently he also invented the concept of the SWAT team. Fascinating guy.

https://youtu.be/bzIdO1VEbFk
This is awesome! - I’m not a whacko after all.

I’ve always believed that the core ability - real world, is to be able to be fully effective one handed, as opposed to two handed.  Using both hands, mentally, inclines you to being less natural and fluid in terms of body movement, while presenting a much larger target to your opponent.  More static, more of you exposed to hit.

One handed greatly enhances your ability to move and fire effectively from behind cover, like around the edge of a wall, etc.

Finally, and most interestingly, the human mind/body interface, is commonly capable (if not fouled by confusion or conscious mental thought) of doing things that seem impossible otherwise.  You learn this pretty quickly when you study traditional Japanese martial arts (Budo), as well as the influence of Zen on swordsmanship and Kyudo (bow).

I know many reading this have experimented with simply extending your arm in line of sight, with focus on the point of the target you want to hit, and just letting the shot break (always the only way to do it anyway…) - and hitting it.  I’ve experienced this with my revolvers in DA. As long as the shot breaks as a surprise, your mind/body will put it there.

An awesome source on the latter (probably the best), are the writings of Daisetz T Suzuki, particularly “Zen and Japanese Culture”, 1959, 1970.

Thanks so much for posting this! - very much appreciated!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: hvybarrels on September 02, 2025, 10:57:53 AM
Finally, and most interestingly, the human mind/body interface, is commonly capable (if not fouled by confusion or conscious mental thought) of doing things that seem impossible otherwise. 

Elijah Dicken was using damaged iron sights that were filed down and still got 8 out of 10 on a mass shooter from 40 yards away.

Apparently he was trained by his grandfather in the old ways.

Glad you enjoyed this as much as I did.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on September 02, 2025, 11:24:00 AM
Elijah Dicken was using damaged iron sights that were filed down and still got 8 out of 10 on a mass shooter from 40 yards away.

Apparently he was trained by his grandfather in the old ways.

Glad you enjoyed this as much as I did.
I did not know that!

Well, I guess it’s case closed for me with regard to the value of the substance here - I’ll increase my time and focus on it - see where it leads me.

This where what we do evolves into art, as far as I’m concerned.

Many thanks again!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Begle1 on October 11, 2025, 09:30:27 AM
I expect one-handed and point-shooting tactics to have something of a resurgence in the TacBro community in the next couple decades.

What's old is new again and all that.

I recognize some dissonance when people insist that flipping off a thumb safety slows you down too much, yet coming up into a proper two-handed grip and aligning your eye to a red dot is essential to putting a shot on target. I don't know... Seems to me like it's worth it to practice one-handed point-shooting out of a pocket holster.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 11, 2025, 09:48:29 AM
I expect one-handed and point-shooting tactics to have something of a resurgence in the TacBro community in the next couple decades.

What's old is new again and all that.

I recognize some dissonance when people insist that flipping off a thumb safety slows you down too much, yet coming up into a proper two-handed grip and aligning your eye to a red dot is essential to putting a shot on target. I don't know... Seems to me like it's worth it to practice one-handed point-shooting out of a pocket holster.
Yes.  The most likely scenario where you may have to defend life is ambush at close range - not like the shoot out at the Ok Corral.

You need to be able to react instantly and correctly without distraction.

I think this video is an excellent reality check, and mirrors what some of us have already experienced in life with respect to random violence:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/us/activist-ryan-carson-fatally-stabbed
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: zippz on October 11, 2025, 12:13:26 PM
Some old school cup.and saucer techniques.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdjDW7g4/received-1743060716348719.png)
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: QUIETShooter on October 11, 2025, 12:44:35 PM
Train like the Israelis.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 11, 2025, 07:29:52 PM
Some old school cup.and saucer techniques.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdjDW7g4/received-1743060716348719.png)
I think he’s just coming on to her.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 11, 2025, 07:33:24 PM
Train like the Israelis.
… but love like the Italians!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: oldfart on October 12, 2025, 05:17:52 AM
Some old school cup.and saucer techniques.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdjDW7g4/received-1743060716348719.png)
....
Isn't that Chris Marvin in that ad?
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: zippz on October 12, 2025, 06:21:40 AM
....
Isn't that Chris Marvin in that ad?

 :D
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Q on October 12, 2025, 07:21:48 AM
....
Isn't that Chris Marvin in that ad?

Who is signing up?
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 12, 2025, 08:15:39 AM
Since we’re on this subject of learning how to index your side arm effectively at close range and with some speed, I’ll just set myself up for a brutal pile-on savaging here, by saying that, while you’re at it, why not train to index on upper thighs: I.e. remove their leg support  - if you feel such leeway exists in the moment?

Do we have to program our behavior & training solely with the focus of drilling hearts and brains?

If we can possibly disable - is that not better?

Finally, I am aware of some incidents in which the aggressor was so drugged up that multiple torso hits had no immediate effect, and what ended the attack was taking out a leg.

Ok, brutalize away - I can take it.

Title: Re: Old School
Post by: QUIETShooter on October 12, 2025, 08:51:56 AM
The boto and guts for me.

Bam Bam Bam: Boto

Bam Bam Bam: Guts

Granted all six might disperse itself unevenly between the two due to my bad aim and lack of training.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 12, 2025, 01:10:27 PM
The boto and guts for me.

Bam Bam Bam: Boto

Bam Bam Bam: Guts

Granted all six might disperse itself unevenly between the two due to my bad aim and lack of training.
Yep, when it comes to survival, there’s no beating Tuco’s rule:  “When it’s time to shoot, shoot.  Don’t talk.”

- so no argument from me brother!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on October 12, 2025, 01:37:40 PM
Yep, when it comes to survival, there’s no beating Tuco’s rule:  “When it’s time to shoot, shoot.  Don’t talk.”

- so no argument from me brother!
Minor correction:

"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."

A quote should be as accurate as possible.   :geekdanc: :thumbsup:

Enjoy your Sunday!

:shaka:
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 12, 2025, 01:49:36 PM
Minor correction:

"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."

A quote should be as accurate as possible.   :geekdanc: :thumbsup:

Enjoy your Sunday!

:shaka:
Thanks dude! - that’s way too fine a quote to permit being mangled - my apologies!

Same to you brother!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: zippz on October 13, 2025, 12:42:26 AM
Shooting one handed develops good fundamentals and olympic/bullseye shooters will tear a hole in the center of a target at 50 yards.  If you have good technique, you could shoot a gun accurately with just your thumb and trigger finger.  The role of the support hand is to control recoil for quicker follow up shots and mitigate trigger/grip issues with the gun hand.

You can shoot pretty good like in the army videos.  However it takes a lot more practice, you won't be as accurate, and you can't shoot multiple rounds as fast.  It would be interesting to see someone try it on a USPSA match.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 13, 2025, 05:31:07 AM
Shooting one handed develops good fundamentals and olympic/bullseye shooters will tear a hole in the center of a target at 50 yards.  If you have good technique, you could shoot a gun accurately with just your thumb and trigger finger.  The role of the support hand is to control recoil for quicker follow up shots and mitigate trigger/grip issues with the gun hand.

You can shoot pretty good like in the army videos.  However it takes a lot more practice, you won't be as accurate, and you can't shoot multiple rounds as fast.  It would be interesting to see someone try it on a USPSA match.
Agree with all the above.

When I started shooting a couple of decades ago, not knowing anything (kinda still the case) I learned using the Army Advanced Pistol Marksmanship manual.  It was hard.  However, right there at the beginning was the bit about, paraphrasing, “… as long as the shot breaks as a surprise, it will be accurate.”

And that simple, beautiful truth, is why I find firearms so interesting and rewarding to work with.

I was lucky to have picked that Army manual as the starting point.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: QUIETShooter on October 13, 2025, 08:39:47 AM
Agree with all the above.

When I started shooting a couple of decades ago, not knowing anything (kinda still the case) I learned using the Army Advanced Pistol Marksmanship manual.  It was hard.  However, right there at the beginning was the bit about, paraphrasing, “… as long as the shot breaks as a surprise, it will be accurate.”

And that simple, beautiful truth, is why I find firearms so interesting and rewarding to work with.

I was lucky to have picked that Army manual as the starting point.

I found this out to be true for me also.  Long ago when I visited the range more often, I shot my SW model 29 one handed.  Never knew when the shot would break, the gun went off as a surprise everytime.  I was way more accurate than recently when I held the gun two handed.

I'm having problems keeping my rounds on paper with my P365.  Love the gun but I couldn't hit the side of a barn.  Now that I have grandpa duties and watch my 2 grandsons full time, I haven't been to the range.

Next chance I get I think I'll reset my thinking and go back to shooting one handed to see if I get any better.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 13, 2025, 08:53:47 AM
I found this out to be true for me also.  Long ago when I visited the range more often, I shot my SW model 29 one handed.  Never knew when the shot would break, the gun went off as a surprise everytime.  I was way more accurate than recently when I held the gun two handed.

I'm having problems keeping my rounds on paper with my P365.  Love the gun but I couldn't hit the side of a barn.  Now that I have grandpa duties and watch my 2 grandsons full time, I haven't been to the range.

Next chance I get I think I'll reset my thinking and go back to shooting one handed to see if I get any better.
Awesome model 29 .44 Magnum.

One handed and on the money more than once with a .44?

You definitely got it bro!
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: zippz on October 13, 2025, 09:00:38 AM
I'm having problems keeping my rounds on paper with my P365.  Love the gun but I couldn't hit the side of a barn.  Now that I have grandpa duties and watch my 2 grandsons full time, I haven't been to the range.

Dryfire it one handed at home.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QdJ0k9Y/unnamed.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: oldfart on October 13, 2025, 09:53:44 AM
Shooting one handed develops good fundamentals and olympic/bullseye shooters will tear a hole in the center of a target at 50 yards.  If you have good technique, you could shoot a gun accurately with just your thumb and trigger finger.  The role of the support hand is to control recoil for quicker follow up shots and mitigate trigger/grip issues with the gun hand.

You can shoot pretty good like in the army videos.  However it takes a lot more practice, you won't be as accurate, and you can't shoot multiple rounds as fast.  It would be interesting to see someone try it on a USPSA match.
.....
We used to design shooting matches that requires right and left hand only. It was pretty common in ipsc/uspsa/action pistol matches.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: zippz on October 13, 2025, 09:59:39 AM
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We used to design shooting matches that requires right and left hand only. It was pretty common in ipsc/uspsa/action pistol matches.

That, but not allowed to use the sights.  Wonder if the rules allow for that.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: oldfart on October 13, 2025, 10:43:01 AM
That, but not allowed to use the sights.  Wonder if the rules allow for that.
....
The founding principle of ipsc/uspa competition is to present a problem or situation to the shooter and let that person solve the problem as best as they can (within reason).

You would have to figure out a way to prevent the competitor from using sights. Ie. What problem would prevent looking at the sights?
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Rocky on October 14, 2025, 07:46:04 AM
They fell off !  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

....
The founding principle of ipsc/uspa competition is to present a problem or situation to the shooter and let that person solve the problem as best as they can (within reason).

You would have to figure out a way to prevent the competitor from using sights. Ie. What problem would prevent looking at the sights?
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: oldfart on October 14, 2025, 09:34:12 AM
They fell off !  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
....
 :shake: :rofl:
You remember I wrote about that incident?
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: eyeeatingfish on October 14, 2025, 12:27:46 PM
Point and shoot I have had pretty good accuracy up to 10-15 feet. Not tight groups but good enough for center mass on a human torso size target. I think there is an innate human ability to aim at a general direction without needing to aim down the sights. Even blindfolded you can point at a noise source with reasonable accuracy.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Rocky on October 14, 2025, 01:20:06 PM
....
 :shake: :rofl:
You remember I wrote about that incident?
I may be getting old but not senile,  yet !   :rofl:
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on October 14, 2025, 01:24:28 PM
I may be getting old but not senile,  yet !   :rofl:
That you know of!    :geekdanc:

My grandpappy told me, "Son, you don't have to worry about senility.  If you go senile, you won't know it!"   :crazy:

--Richard Pryor
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: hvybarrels on October 14, 2025, 01:45:30 PM
....
The founding principle of ipsc/uspa competition is to present a problem or situation to the shooter and let that person solve the problem as best as they can (within reason).

You would have to figure out a way to prevent the competitor from using sights. Ie. What problem would prevent looking at the sights?

Consider an ambush in a tight Chinatown alleyway where there’s not enough space to use a traditional stance and no time because the other guys already have their weapons out.

That’s the situation that Fairbairn developed his system for after his years of experience as a Shanghai cop.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: oldfart on October 14, 2025, 04:50:53 PM
Consider an ambush in a tight Chinatown alleyway where there’s not enough space to use a traditional stance and no time because the other guys already have their weapons out.

That’s the situation that Fairbairn developed his system for after his years of experience as a Shanghai cop.
...
Ok, I remember we did some drills from about 40 years ago. The key was multiple small targets under very tight time limits.
We only did it in on a closed range because it is kind of dangerous. Never did it in a competition setting
When you mandate very tight time limits, you risk accidents.
That did happen here.
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on October 14, 2025, 05:02:59 PM
https://youtu.be/-oRm-YxsEH8
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 14, 2025, 08:45:02 PM
Consider an ambush in a tight Chinatown alleyway where there’s not enough space to use a traditional stance and no time because the other guys already have their weapons out.

That’s the situation that Fairbairn developed his system for after his years of experience as a Shanghai cop.
You could have just said “Consider going to Chinatown” and we’d all be in your intended state of tactical readiness….  8)
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Rocky on October 15, 2025, 09:42:41 AM
That you know of!    :geekdanc:

My grandpappy told me, "Son, you don't have to worry about senility.  If you go senile, you won't know it!"   :crazy:

--Richard Pryor


Well , at least I'm not senile yet.  :D
Title: Re: Old School
Post by: Kalihi Uka on October 15, 2025, 11:36:40 AM
Well , at least I'm not senile yet.  :D
Nice