Post from Oldguy:
I just checked with my "friend" in the Mayor's Complaint Office.
So far, No One has Complained about the shorter hours at KokoHead.
He "suggested" that we flood the Complaints office with E mails that Require an answer.
Send to: complaints@honolulu.gov (complaints@honolulu.gov)
Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Remember, some one has to personally answer All the complaints. Ask for the answer to be Emailed back to you instead of phone.
Hrm... wtf is Xerox? (Other then the copier company)
To Whom It May Concern:
I am extremely concerned that the reduction of operating hours at the Kokohead Shooting Complex will be detrimental to the efforts of lawabiding citizens to obtain the State mandated training to obtain a handgun and will adversely affect the ability of those that already own guns to maintain the desired level of proficiency.
As the only public shooting range in Hawaii it is often very busy during operating hours and reducing those hours will congest the range even further. Firearms sales are up dramatically and those new owners need a place to safely shoot and reinforce recently learned safety habits.
I would appreciate a response on why the hours of this critically important facility are being reduced.
Thank you.
Mayor, It is bad enough that you require all persons to get a permit to even buy a firearm. Now you are shortening the hours at the only Public(gov) owned shooting range. Remember Xerox, yes of course, everybody who lived on the island then does. The more trained law-abiding citizens that have the ability to defend themselves and others from deadly force the better off our society is. I wonder what exactly the C&C of Oahu are trying to accomplish by: 1, Restricting Practice time on the public range? 2, Interfering with the invidual God-Given Right to "Keep and Bear Arms"
Kaylorinhi Is/Was that too much or what, feed-back please.
To whom it may concern,
I am writing in regards to the recently shortened hours of operation at Koko Head Shooting Complex. We, gun owners, already have a very limited choice of gun ranges for us to practice at to begin with... I fear if the hours of operation continue to be reduced, one day we will have no where to go. As it is, not all facilities at the range are open all the time. For example, skeet and trap shooting (shotgun) and the silhouette range are only open on the weekends. The bullseye pistol and rifle range are only open Wed - Sun, 12 p - 3p. The range is not open to the public on Monday and Tuesday. The KHSC is a great place to shoot - the view is great (lucky we live Hawaii, ya?), the range masters do a great job in seeing that everyone stays safe and best of all, it's free of charge. With that said, I would have no problem paying a nominal entrance fee to ensure the range stays open and the hours are restored, maybe even extended to full-time hours. If you ask around, I'm certain that everyone would not be opposed to this idea either.
Very respectfully,
Stegosaurus
Thank you for your email of September 30, 2010, regarding your concerns of reduced hours of operation at the Koko Head Shooting Complex.As you may already know, the current condition of the City's finances has placedbudgetary constraints on all City departments. The furloughing of staff and reducedhours of operation at most Department of Parks and Recreation (DPR) facilities havebeen set in place as temporary fixes to address the City's budget crisis.Users of the Koko Head Shooting Complex and other DPR facilities have sharedtheir ideas on the willingness to be charged a fee. The idea behind this would be thatthe monies collected for use at the facility would be re-funneled back into funding theoperational hours and maintenance. Unfortunately, the City's current fiscal proceduresdo not allow monies collected at our DPR facilities to be placed in special accounts foreach facility. Presently, all monies collected for facility use go into the City's generaltrust fund. Our staff will continue to pursue the option of "fee for service" as onepossible venue in generating revenue for facility operations.Our staff understands your concerns and will continue to work towards providingthe services you need even with the current fiscal constraints. We appreciate yourunderstanding and patience as well as your suggestions on how we can provideoptimum services with our current resources. [/l]
This is what I wrote. Nothing fancy, I spared the poetics. Just wanted to make sure they received something. Maybe I will write them a pretty poem later and send from another e-mail.QuoteTo whom it may concern,
I am writing in regards to the recently shortened hours of operation at Koko Head Shooting Complex. We, gun owners, already have a very limited choice of gun ranges for us to practice at to begin with... I fear if the hours of operation continue to be reduced, one day we will have no where to go. As it is, not all facilities at the range are open all the time. For example, skeet and trap shooting (shotgun) and the silhouette range are only open on the weekends. The bullseye pistol and rifle range are only open Wed - Sun, 12 p - 3p. The range is not open to the public on Monday and Tuesday. The KHSC is a great place to shoot - the view is great (lucky we live Hawaii, ya?), the range masters do a great job in seeing that everyone stays safe and best of all, it's free of charge. With that said, I would have no problem paying a nominal entrance fee to ensure the range stays open and the hours are restored, maybe even extended to full-time hours. If you ask around, I'm certain that everyone would not be opposed to this idea either.
Very respectfully,
Stegosaurus
This is what I wrote. Nothing fancy, I spared the poetics. Just wanted to make sure they received something. Maybe I will write them a pretty poem later and send from another e-mail.QuoteTo whom it may concern,
I am writing in regards to the recently shortened hours of operation at Koko Head Shooting Complex. We, gun owners, already have a very limited choice of gun ranges for us to practice at to begin with... I fear if the hours of operation continue to be reduced, one day we will have no where to go. As it is, not all facilities at the range are open all the time. For example, skeet and trap shooting (shotgun) and the silhouette range are only open on the weekends. The bullseye pistol and rifle range are only open Wed - Sun, 12 p - 3p. The range is not open to the public on Monday and Tuesday. The KHSC is a great place to shoot - the view is great (lucky we live Hawaii, ya?), the range masters do a great job in seeing that everyone stays safe and best of all, it's free of charge. With that said, I would have no problem paying a nominal entrance fee to ensure the range stays open and the hours are restored, maybe even extended to full-time hours. If you ask around, I'm certain that everyone would not be opposed to this idea either.
Very respectfully,
Stegosaurus
I'm sorry if I laughed but I just imagined you writing that and signing it Stegosaurus. LOL. Unless that's really your name....
To the *Far* right of the rifle range. I was shooting steel pigs and rabbits and stuff. I am almost certain I paid five bucks to shoot, but I had to sign all the regular rules sheet etc.
Here is the letter I received from the parks department:QuoteThank you for your email of September 30, 2010, regarding your concerns of reduced hours of operation at the Koko Head Shooting Complex.As you may already know, the current condition of the City's finances has placedbudgetary constraints on all City departments. The furloughing of staff and reducedhours of operation at most Department of Parks and Recreation (DPR) facilities havebeen set in place as temporary fixes to address the City's budget crisis.Users of the Koko Head Shooting Complex and other DPR facilities have sharedtheir ideas on the willingness to be charged a fee. The idea behind this would be thatthe monies collected for use at the facility would be re-funneled back into funding theoperational hours and maintenance. Unfortunately, the City's current fiscal proceduresdo not allow monies collected at our DPR facilities to be placed in special accounts foreach facility. Presently, all monies collected for facility use go into the City's generaltrust fund. Our staff will continue to pursue the option of "fee for service" as onepossible venue in generating revenue for facility operations.Our staff understands your concerns and will continue to work towards providingthe services you need even with the current fiscal constraints. We appreciate yourunderstanding and patience as well as your suggestions on how we can provideoptimum services with our current resources. [/l][/l]
It was signed by Lester Chang, Director
What a time to change the hours, I got there at 8 this morning and didnt get a bench until 1030. Still the same crowd of guys leaving guns to marinate on benches while they go hang out on the other end of the range while people are waiting to shoot. A few times I counted 10 benches in a row with guns and nobody sitting behind them.
Yeah, that really sucks. The guys who just leave and walk around are the same ones that are there every day, because they can make it out any time they want. Really sucks for those who can only get out once in a while. Well, at least you got out.
When I go out there I just tend to shoot at the silhouette range so this issue don't really affect me, but I have to ask: Have any of you guys tried TALKING to the guys who do this on a regular basis. While they probably are well aware that other people are waiting to shoot and don't really care, the fact of the matter is that very few people enjoy confrontation, and will generally take the easiest route to avoid any further conflict. They will most likely just acquiesce and either give up their bench or shoot the rest of their ammo and leave.Ive tried talking nicely to a few guys and giving smartass remarks, they dont seem to care. To them its their range first and the younger guys need to deal with it. The guy I was shooting with had an idea that he would bring his entire platoon one morning about 6am and setup on 30 or so benches at about 6am before the old timers get there and shoot all day.
- Alex
When I go out there I just tend to shoot at the silhouette range so this issue don't really affect me, but I have to ask: Have any of you guys tried TALKING to the guys who do this on a regular basis. While they probably are well aware that other people are waiting to shoot and don't really care, the fact of the matter is that very few people enjoy confrontation, and will generally take the easiest route to avoid any further conflict. They will most likely just acquiesce and either give up their bench or shoot the rest of their ammo and leave.Ive tried talking nicely to a few guys and giving smartass remarks, they dont seem to care. To them its their range first and the younger guys need to deal with it. The guy I was shooting with had an idea that he would bring his entire platoon one morning about 6am and setup on 30 or so benches at about 6am before the old timers get there and shoot all day.
- Alex
Maybe that usage fee we were discussing elsewhere should be a rental instead. You buy the bench by the half-hour. I bet that would make a profound difference in how long the bench hogs stayed set up! Maybe they'd realize that they can get together and talk story without denying other people access.
Then again, my typical day at the rifle range lasts 3-4 hours. I might regret offering up such a suggestion! Besides, looking forward to my retirement years, it would be nice to go out, claim a bench before sunrise, sit around drinking coffee and talking story with my mates, then stretching two boxes of ammo out over an entire day. Sounds very relaxing!
QuoteMaybe that usage fee we were discussing elsewhere should be a rental instead. You buy the bench by the half-hour. I bet that would make a profound difference in how long the bench hogs stayed set up! Maybe they'd realize that they can get together and talk story without denying other people access.
Then again, my typical day at the rifle range lasts 3-4 hours. I might regret offering up such a suggestion! Besides, looking forward to my retirement years, it would be nice to go out, claim a bench before sunrise, sit around drinking coffee and talking story with my mates, then stretching two boxes of ammo out over an entire day. Sounds very relaxing!
Sorry guy's,
I am one of those guy's that take a long time to shoot. I am going to have to disagree with those who might say that some folks 'take too long'.
Load development, sighting in, and practice (especially hunting rifles) takes a long time. In target rifles, many different loads must be fired. Sighting in for hunting situations must be done on a clean cold bore.
Some folks don't just go and blast off all their rounds at once. Some guys like to bench shoot clean wait for the barrel to cool. We must all be patient and wait our turn.
I too don't like to wait for a bench. That is why I wake up extra early(i live on the otherside of the island). I usually get there at 6 to 6:30 am to set up. I'm a working man, and I work night shift, so this is not as easy as it may sound. If I can't get up that early, then I'll just have to wait my turn like everyone else.
We need to be coutious and patient. We are trying to get the public involved with this sport, and we do not want any 'noobies' to be offended or put off by a rude person who thinks they are 'shooting too slow' or 'taking too long'.
Renting of the facility by the minute/hour, in my opinion, is a very bad idea. I have many miles to travel to get to the gun range, and I do not want to spend only a half hour shooting and rushing to finish my session just to keep with in time constraints. There will defintatly be less shooters if we do this, and even less support for the 2A rights, in this already gun unfreindly state.
Might I suggest that the state be petitioned to open more shooting facilities, since the ONLY one we have is so crowded. This option probably would never be considered, but it is worth a try. If we make too much of a stink about range time limits and other such stuff, then we may not like the real restrictions that our ridiculous law makers will undoubtably levee.
Right Heavies -- but what kind of consideration is it to others, whom may be waiting, if they sit there and watch a bench and a Rifle "cool-off" for a hour +... that's not fair. Courtesy goes both ways. The problem with it being "free" is it's not on any persons dime. Your less likely to waste all of your range time if you paid a fee.
I was also informed today that the range closure was due to Peter Carlisle.
i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them?
i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? :)
Might I suggest that the state be petitioned to open more shooting facilities, since the ONLY one we have is so crowded. This option probably would never be considered, but it is worth a try. If we make too much of a stink about range time limits and other such stuff, then we may not like the real restrictions that our ridiculous law makers will undoubtably levee.
i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? :)
i hardly see pple shoot prone....but if theres a long bench waiting list on sun. would the bench guys get mad if we shoot prone between them? :)
I think the rangemasters would get mad. Not that I've checked. They are pretty strict about what each space is used for. Has anybody tried shooting between others shooting?
Did it range trip before last, the chubby one with the glasses told me I NEED to put my name on the wait list, so I asked a friend and his bench neighbor if I could shoot between them and shot from there. It was a good move, 4 girls wearing next to nothing ended up shooting with him.
Did it range trip before last, the chubby one with the glasses told me I NEED to put my name on the wait list, so I asked a friend and his bench neighbor if I could shoot between them and shot from there. It was a good move, 4 girls wearing next to nothing ended up shooting with him.
We are trying to get the public involved with this sport, and we do not want any 'noobies' to be offended or put off by a rude person who thinks they are 'shooting too slow' or 'taking too long'."
...but who is to say that this person or that person is taking too long?
Heavies, you're right, there IS a compromise...from the people who have to wait for their barrel to cool off. Not from everyone else. If there are people who shoot 1 or 2 rounds every 30 minutes to an hour, then please explain to me how it hurts them in the least to double or triple up on a bench. Those types of shooters are far in the minority, and judging by your statement that,
It is clear that you are worried about getting the public involved and not scaring off noobies, how do you feel knowing that more people who would like to shoot don't even bother going because they don't want to have to wait 2+ hours to shoot while they watch people doing something like shoot 1 round every 30 minutes? That's not very Aloha, is it?
Common courtesy; something that I all too often fail to see here in the "Aloha State." Maybe it's my Southern upbringing, but my idea of courtesy is very different from what I've seen out here.
Have you ever tried to go to Ala Moana beach park and have a picnic or party? If you wanted to, you gotta wake up super early and get a spot. Other wise your just SOL. No one is gonna tell you you are there too long and wrap it up. That's just how it is.
It's inconsiderate as: Setting up a big tent and leave it empty 50% of the 3 hours it's available for people to use while others are standing outside with their tents ready to go.
Ever tried to surf in Waikiki? That place is a mad house. If you want to catch some good breaks, you gotta wake up early and get a few in before the crowd arrives. When the crowd arrives no one is gonna tell you you been out too long and you gotta go in.
It's inconsiderate as: Going to the only public surfing area on the island and anchoring your surfboard while you swim and talk with others who have done the same thing. Going back to catch a wave once or twice every 30 minutes of the 3 hours it's available. Denying any other users.
You are at the grocery store and grandma is in front of you taking too long to count pennies to pay for her items. Are you going to tell her that she is taking too long, and she should allow the persons waiting behind her to go first? Just because they'll be quicker?
It's inconsiderate as: Grandma goes straight to a check out counter, leaves her cart there and goes shopping. Coming back every 30 minutes to put something in the cart while people are waiting to use the line. For the 3 hours the store is open.
I was once inspired to be proactive, but all the fight is gone in me for now. For example, I hate to admit this but I have grown accustomed to how the shooting community is in Hawaii.
When I volunteered to help with a couple of the organization it was like fighting tooth and nails just to get an audience for an audition to help for free. A lot of effort with minimal results. Unlike the mainland.
A lot of the organizations talk, but they really do not want any change and it's obvious. It's okay! Island mentality Brother!
Not that my haole opinion is worth a damn here; I wasn't born or raised here, so what the hell do I know? :grrr:
For all of your info to have 'Aloha' or the 'Aloha spirit' is NOT how people treat YOU, it is how YOU treat other people.
I have priorities in my life which revolve around maximizing family time in preparation for the deployment.No problem, we all have to adjust our priorities based on our particular life circumstances. My problem is that you cannot say on one hand how much effort you put forth in securing 2A rights or trying to change the restrictive practices, and how that effort resulted in you being burnt out, but then say youdon't have the time to devote to issues. Which is it?
This is a forum and if you are insulted then I apologize. I tend to be blunt and at times not so diplomatic. I just had very high expectations and needed to come down to reality.Apology accepted. However, there is a difference between being "blunt" and making inaccurate accusations and disparaging remarks about those individuals that do devote their time and energy to the "cause."
I have not been on island very much but we are only here for a short time. I do not have the time to set in for a long campaign with deployments in the future. I guess I am just used to things moving faster and I make that know at times. In fact, I came to Hawaii to chill out, but it's not happening due to OPTEMPO once again.Again, understandable. But your inability to find the time to get involved should not be protrayed as someone else's problem...like saying you fought "tooth and nail" to get an "audience" with me.
I'll try and make it to the next Fun Shoot, if I am still allowed. If not, I truly understand.
Yes you did offer, but I got the distinct impression that the NRA instructor course was needed and I did not want to violate any Hawaii State Laws.You were offered an opportunity to expore alternate means to assist. You never got back to me. That's a lot different than being ignored or not being allowed to participate.
I too have volunteered my time. Not to throw a deuce, but I personally have volunteered over 39 months down range in various jobs in the middle east and I cannot tell you how many times we have missed major family events and what not. I am not trying to get sympathy, but see if you can hold the line when your unit is extended for an additional four months after making it to 12. How crappy is that?
I choose this job, so please do not tell me about volunteering time because unlike some of us, you get to go home and see your family after participating in gun related events.
Guys, the world is an ugly place and if you can not even take an email with a grain of salt, how are you going to react in a gunfight or protect your love ones. I truly wonder?
I understand. I told you I needed to get training in the ways of the NRA.Yep, but you didn't. And regardless of the reasons for not doing so, that was your call....the ability of the organizations you maligned had nothing to do with it....or any of the other complaints you espoused.
Look Gents, I am not going to stop my opinions, if you got an issue PM me because these are just opinions and I am not try to torpedo anyone. Not my intent. If you want touchy freely stuff then will adjust fire for the sake of being respectful.No one is asking that you stop providing your opinion. But I would like you to base any future allegations on facts, not just how you feel.
However, I am glad that you all are enlightening me about what the clubs are doing because the perception is completely different. Especially when it's coming from LEO's, certain shop owners, and military personal of whom I have spoken to over the year.Funny thing about perception...it is often influenced by where you are sitting...so come on down and sit at an HRA board meeting...I'm betting your perception will change.
Nobodies lives are at stake and these are just words.Interesting irony in that statement...first, many of us do believe this is a matter of life and death. My ability to protect myself and my loved ones is indeed about placing lives needlessly at risk. And that is why I fight so hard and contribute so much of my time to the efforts to regain our 2A rights....words can be used to encourage or to discourage and I got the distinct yours were doing the latter....and that is what upset me. Especially since you professed to devote so much time an effor tto change things when in reality your efforts were token attempts. You complained that the organizations here were just speaking the "words" and not really trying....well what are you doing?
When you come "home" to Hawaii and want to get wet in the dirty world of politics, look us up.
I've been around long enough to offend lot of people because of what I say or do. Never stopped me.
About shooting, your kind of shooting is different from "our" kind. As instructors we do NOT teach house clearing, or other combat
tactics. There is a big Difference.
Just What kind of Shooting "skills" do you want to teach to a beginning new shooter, who has never handled a firearm before?
Our kind of shooting is Defensive in nature. I'm Presuming that yours is Offensive, Shoot to Kill, Not shoot to Stop.
The Wife and I may not be up to your "Level" of shooting speed, but I can Honestly say, given the kinds of "stuff" that happens here
in Hawaii as far as violence against the general public is concerned, the Wife and I feel Confident in Our Abilities to handle things.
Thank you for serving.
Given how you feel and what you've been thru, maybe it's time you got out of the military into a less stressful life and wind down.
"Shoot to kill" vs "Shoot to stop": To me, they are the same except in a court of law. I can see how you view a defensive/offensive situation. Just make sure your mindset is right and hit the dang target you intend to stop, know what it is behind it, be prepared to pay out, and get a good lawyer. I am serious about what I teach because one of my former students was involved in an altercation. He survived because of his mindset. I'll leave it at that.
I found another 150+ rounds of 5.56 to burn off in the house, so I gotta dirty a rifle one more time. Problem is, I dont get off work til 2 and the range closes at 3...
My how this thread has digressed...oh well, I guess I'll continue throwing it off-course.
To me, "shoot to kill" vs. "shoot to stop" is more than an argument over semantics. It goes back to mindset and proper training. I can put 2 bullets through a guy's heart and 1 through each lung-effectively killing him-however there is still enough oxygen in his blood to allow him to kill me if his will is strong enough. We train to "shoot to stop" to ensure that we are able to walk away from the conflict, whether that means 1 grazing shot across the arm, or emptying a magazine (or two) into a mujaheddin doped up on opium...the same holds true in a home/personal defense scenario.
- Alex
I found another 150+ rounds of 5.56 to burn off in the house, so I gotta dirty a rifle one more time. Problem is, I dont get off work til 2 and the range closes at 3...
Gah, that is a problem. You won't even have a chance to set up a frame.
My, how we have gotten off topic a little. :o
Sorry about that, I think I had a little something to do with it. :P
Posted this in the other range thread as well...
Well, I finally got a chance to get to the range today. I wanted to make a flier that would direct people to the mayors office to complain about the hours, but then I thought the range guys might not like something so political on the bulletin boards. They have been telling many to refer to the last issue of the HRA newsletter. So, in my flier, I direct any persons wanting to file complaints, or discuss other firearms topics to view this web site. Also, maybe we can bring even more new blood to help us on or mission. ;D
I'll try to pass out more of those stickers too if I get a chance.
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/photo-31.jpg)
I wonder if "Reduced range hours...again" would draw more attention to the problem? Just a suggestion.
Another perspective is maybe you just scared her :rofl: