2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dirtylickins on March 08, 2013, 06:12:20 PM
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http://www.khon2.com/mostpopular/story/Police-Man-shot-after-threatening-officer-with/kfNOJLzLNkSCC1th-TrREg.cspx (http://www.khon2.com/mostpopular/story/Police-Man-shot-after-threatening-officer-with/kfNOJLzLNkSCC1th-TrREg.cspx)
I hope what maafala says in his interview applys to everyone defending themselves.
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What did he say? Only saw what stephanie lum did.
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im picturing like a tent stake?
well, if the details provided are accurate, and he really did raise his weapon only a few feet from the officer, then yes, i think the shoot is justified.
and i also hope the same would be afforded us in such a situation.
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if it were a private person who shot the dude I'm sure they would make a huge deal and try to convict them of murder (if he dies) or at least some sort of felony, and Im sure the officer will get off scott free, but the guy who was shot was a known for thefts and who knows what else so he had it coming. People who steal are the scum of the earth so good riddance. :thumbsup:
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im picturing like a tent stake?
well, if the details provided are accurate, and he really did raise his weapon only a few feet from the officer, then yes, i think the shoot is justified.
and i also hope the same would be afforded us in such a situation.
tent stake? I was thinking about a beef steak...
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What did he say? Only saw what stephanie lum did.
he said something along the lines that the perp raised a weapon and headed toward the officer and he felt that the officers life was in danger and the perps intentions was clear and fired in defense. And so thats what i meant that if anyone else is in that situation hope its viewed as justified as well even for us civilians.
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he said something along the lines that the perp raised a weapon and headed toward the officer and he felt that the officers life was in danger and the perps intentions was clear and fired in defense. And so thats what i meant that if anyone else is in that situation hope its viewed as justified as well even for us civilians.
Oh same thing the news I watched said. It's interesting though, they shot the guy, but afterwards the mom or a female picked up the stake but she never got shot, she got arrested for terroristic threatining
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Just from the reports and comments here, it sounds like a good shoot. Just wait till the relatives see a lawyer, though.
It almost sounds like a suicide-by-cop incident, though. Just guessing, don't quote me as presenting a fact here.
Terry, 230RN
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From what the media reported, I think it was justified. The residence had prior complaints of domestic disturbance and the suspect had prior convictions.
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"The male immediately headed toward the officer's vehicle and threatened the officer. As the officer exited his vehicle, the male raised the stake overhead and was within a few feet of the officer, when the officer drew and fired his weapon," HPD Deputy Chief Dave Kajihiro said.
If this is accurate, then yes it's justified.
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Bottom line! Dont come at an LEO with the intent to harm or threaten! Cause then the LEO will have no choice but to put them down, and just an FYI they dont shoot to wound! Their training is shoot to kill if you have to pull your sidearm! BOYS IN BLUE!
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Yeah, sounds like self defense to me. It's crazy how people say he should have tried to taze him. First off, the officer just rolled up and doesn't know shit about the suspect or what he could be on. Secondly, you get one shot with a taser, if the barbs don't stick or you miss, you're shit out of luck. Then people say 5 shots is out of line. This cop just happens to be on target, and I'm thankful for it. He easily could have missed with many of those shots. I hope the guy gets to suffer through prison with a colostomy bag.
Bottom line! Dont come at an LEO with the intent to harm or threaten! Cause then the LEO will have no choice but to put them down, and just an FYI they dont shoot to wound! Their training is shoot to kill if you have to pull your sidearm! BOYS IN BLUE!
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The public doesn't realize that a guy coming at you with a sharp object has an advantage over you and your holstered gun. Time is not on your side unless the suspect is running a hundred feet away.
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http://www.usadojo.com/articles/21-feet.htm (http://www.usadojo.com/articles/21-feet.htm)
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IMHO, good job HPD. :thumbsup:
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IMHO, good job HPD. :thumbsup:
Yup, one less chronic on the streets of Kalihi
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Tueller drill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)
The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.
Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]
Details in link.
Interview with Dennis Tueller. Note Tueller says there's nothing magical about the "21 foot" rule, and prefers to call it the "reactionary gap," which can vary):
Dennis Tueller Interview (Tueller Drill / 21 ft Rule / Glock) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxeTNnEWmbY#ws)
Graphic warning (also contains interview cited above):
http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/1779 (http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/1779)
Terry, 230RN
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The public doesn't realize that a guy coming at you with a sharp object has an advantage over you and your holstered gun. Time is not on your side unless the suspect is running a hundred feet away.
Yup! It was surprising to me how quickly an "average" person can close 20 feet and be on top of you.
At a handgun course I took last year, they also mentioned that studies have shown that the average human is capable of approximately 20 seconds of aerobic activity even after hits to the upper thoracic or center of mass. That unless you hit one of the switches, the attacker will still be very much a threat at even say 50 feet.
The public should also know that not every officer carries a tazer.
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Bottom line! Dont come at an LEO with the intent to harm or threaten! Cause then the LEO will have no choice but to put them down, and just an FYI they dont shoot to wound! Their training is shoot to kill if you have to pull your sidearm! BOYS IN BLUE!
No they are not trained to "shoot to kill" but rather to shoot to stop the treat. Which is EXACTLY what other, non-LEO folks are taught....It may seem like a trivial play on words, but think of the consequences in court trying to defend you're actions if you were ever involved in a self defense shooting.
"I shot to stop the threat" or "I shot to kill him." Which one do you think will serve you best in your self defense claim?
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Odds of Hawaii prosecutor deciding not to prosecute a civilian shooter under the same circumstances? I can see the PR statement now: 'This killing was clearly an overreaction by a trigger-happy yahoo who shot an unarmed man who had only a piece of wood in his hands and who wasn't even within striking distance when he was brutally gunned down with multiple shots from a high-capacity clip.'
Laughable double-standard is laughable.
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Uh... its a LEO's ~job~ to walk around with lethal force and regularly (if not necessarily frequently) walk into dangerous circumstances. And almost ~every~ situation is potentially dangerous.
Saying there is a double standard here is a bit harsh. While it is true that different standards apply to armed LEO's and armed citizens... a 1:1 comparison is not appropriate, especially in this State where there are no armed citizens outside of home, business and hunting.
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One less crackhead on the street. Well done, HPD.
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tax payers still gotta pay for his medical expenses. I think hes still listed in critical condition
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Uh... its a LEO's ~job~ to walk around with lethal force and regularly (if not necessarily frequently) walk into dangerous circumstances. And almost ~every~ situation is potentially dangerous.
Saying there is a double standard here is a bit harsh. While it is true that different standards apply to armed LEO's and armed citizens... a 1:1 comparison is not appropriate, especially in this State where there are no armed citizens outside of home, business and hunting.
There should be no different standard for public servants as opposed to private citizens.
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tax payers still gotta pay for his medical expenses
They should liquidate his assets to cover the costs. I'm sick and tired for paying for welfare leeches and other parasites of society. Why should criminals be allowed to live off the tax payer in their 3 meal-a-day, cable t.v. ready, all utilities covered palaces of concrete, steel and sodomy?
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Justified shoot, especially since the officer was on duty and responding to a domestic call.
We have HPD here, not LAPD. As long as you stay within the side of the law, HPD is your friend.
As much as I dislike standing for hours in line at the HPD registration line, I personally have not had any bad interactions with HPD officers and thank them for their work.
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What did he say? Only saw what stephanie lum did.
Stephanie Lum was in that video?
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Uh... its a LEO's ~job~ to walk around with lethal force and regularly (if not necessarily frequently) walk into dangerous circumstances. And almost ~every~ situation is potentially dangerous.
Saying there is a double standard here is a bit harsh. While it is true that different standards apply to armed LEO's and armed citizens... a 1:1 comparison is not appropriate, especially in this State where there are no armed citizens outside of home, business and hunting.
Frequency of occurance should not change whether a given use of force was treated as justified by prosecutors. Instead, however, it's taken for granted that a cop (or cops) dumping a mag (or mags) into a man threatening him (or them) with a piece of wood is OK. A non-LEO doing the same thing under the same circumstances would be taken to to trial and vilified for unnecessary use of force by many, if not most, prosecutors in the US--to say nothing of HI.
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Stephanie Lum was in that video?
Yeah in a bikini. Nah, I mean I was watching ch7 and thought different stations were reporting differently
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?
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I thought leo carried pepper spray or would have it in there car??? did the officer have no way of making space between him and the threat? to give ground while continuing to shout out commands? for at least in this situation to give the guy a second to realize hes about to get shot. I am sure they will some way somehow justify it. I just feel that maybe a little quick on the trigger but like i said it will be justified anyhow and for most people thats all that matters. You try shoot somebody trying to whack you with a tent pole and see where you end up!!!!! :wave: LOL!!!! LMAO!!!!!!! :wave: Yeah Exactly!!!!!! :wave: ALOHA TO ALL
From what i remember being taught, its all about disparity of force. You never want to be "out armed" by someone. They have bare hands, you go one higher, got pepper spray or taser. They have a bat, you go one higher, your firearm. They run in the house with a firearm and barricade themselves, call SSD, thats what their all about (for).
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Really?
If my neighbor called me to help with a violent husband and I shot him when he threatened me I'd certainly go to jail for murder.
People call the police to deal with that stuff on a regular basis. No one calls me to do that ever.
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I thought leo carried pepper spray or would have it in there car??? did the officer have no way of making space between him and the threat? to give ground while continuing to shout out commands? for at least in this situation to give the guy a second to realize hes about to get shot. I am sure they will some way somehow justify it. I just feel that maybe a little quick on the trigger but like i said it will be justified anyhow and for most people thats all that matters. You try shoot somebody trying to whack you with a tent pole and see where you end up!!!!! :wave: LOL!!!! LMAO!!!!!!! :wave: Yeah Exactly!!!!!! :wave: ALOHA TO ALL
From what I read, he just got out of his vehicle. There's so many things that can go through your head in a dynamic situation like that. Use of force was one of the most challenging phases in the academy.
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they could've shot his :thumbsup: and knocked out the spike!
http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/thumbsup.gif (http://2ahawaii.com/Smileys/extended/thumbsup.gif)
I thought leo carried pepper spray or would have it in there car??? did the officer have no way of making space between him and the threat? to give ground while continuing to shout out commands? for at least in this situation to give the guy a second to realize hes about to get shot. I am sure they will some way somehow justify it. I just feel that maybe a little quick on the trigger but like i said it will be justified anyhow and for most people thats all that matters. You try shoot somebody trying to whack you with a tent pole and see where you end up!!!!! :wave: LOL!!!! LMAO!!!!!!! :wave: Yeah Exactly!!!!!! :wave: ALOHA TO ALL
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A few thoughts....
- Not sure why people might think that the prosecutors office would be any less harsh on an HPD Officer as opposed to a civilian under a self defense scenario. It is pretty common understanding within the HPD that the prosecutors office has a clear history of more aggressively prosecuting LEO than civilians. They go to greater lengths to attempt to bring prosecution and conviction. It is clearly obvious to those with experience in this area. Also the HPD, contrary to some peoples belief, will take away an Officers Police Authority with mere allegations and take severe steps at disciplinary action and termination. In the administrative realm, you are GUILTY until proven innocent. So LEO's involved in defensive situations will not only need to deal with the Prosecutors Office, where up and coming prosecutors can make a huge name for themselves via convicting an LEO, but then the LEO needs to worry about the administrative side of things. In addition there are law suits that are often a part of the equation. Even in an ideal situation, the entire process is a huge chunk taken out of life of the person involved that can never be gotten back, LEO or civilian.
- As mentioned, the training is to shoot to stop the threat. If there is no longer a threat the shooting will cease. Death may be a result of the actions, but it is not the intended outcome.
- Dennis Tueller is a very nice fella. The 21 foot rule is really a bit of a misunderstanding to many people. The rule should be thought of that if someone is 21 feet away from you with a knife that you ARE going to get cut. Dennis Tueller will tell you the same thing.
- The human heart can take a direct hit that would be a fatal wound, but an attacker can continue to fight upwards of 45 seconds or more before being incapacitated and death following. So a fatally wounded person can continue the fight and kill you before they themselves become incapacitated. For this reason the multiple rounds are delivered in an attempt to increase the odds of quicker incapacitation which could include a CNS disruption, the higher on the system the better.
- I have lived in many cities and traveled and intermixed with LE over the last 20+ years in many major metro areas. I will simply agree with the sentiment that was mentioned by JI808 in that the HPD is excellent given the size of the City / Agency. When people complain about HPD it makes me think that those people have little reference in comparison to similar sized LE agencies in the nation, or most other agencies period. We are truly fortunate no matter what the naysayers like to espouse.
- HPD SSD is indeed tasked by policy with any barricaded type of situation.
I thought leo carried pepper spray or would have it in there car??? did the officer have no way of making space between him and the threat? to give ground while continuing to shout out commands? for at least in this situation to give the guy a second to realize hes about to get shot. I am sure they will some way somehow justify it. I just feel that maybe a little quick on the trigger but like i said it will be justified anyhow and for most people thats all that matters. You try shoot somebody trying to whack you with a tent pole and see where you end up!!!!! :wave: LOL!!!! LMAO!!!!!!! :wave: Yeah Exactly!!!!!! :wave: ALOHA TO ALL
This may come across harsh, but is meant to be constructive criticism. There are 4 stages of competence. This statement would fall into the unconsciously incompetent. There is a lack of experience, training or understanding in general and a lack of competent understanding of this topic. In essence, the individual really doesn't know, what they don't know. With about 20 mins of a persons time, I could take an absolutely untrained, or non-knowledgeable individual on any type of self defense and but them through some simplistic force on force type of scenarios that might mimic the incident that the HPD Officer encountered. In that 20 mins, I could make it pretty patently obvious to the individual that probably 90 plus % of our encounters would end up with that tent stake going through some part of your body resulting in serious bodily injury up to and including death. In 99.9% of encounters you do not deal with a lethal threat with non-lethal means. I might suggest that if you are a proponent of self defense especially with a weapon, that you seek greater information and training on the topic in order to educate yourself on your own abilities and limitations and what a perpetrator is capable of achieving in the widest array of situations that you can immerse yourself in. Most people greatly underestimate the threat and ultimately pay a heavy price for it.
My final thought......
This was a student of mine. With the information I have, I concur with the actions taken and the type of response employed. I am glad to see that he is well, but often the hard part is the post incident things.
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I no what your saying and then some, you should not draw your conclusion of
One based upon the purely honest questions that they ask.. For you have no
Clue, of the one who asks, background, service, training or skill level. I totally
Concur with the actions taken & meant no disrespect in any way. And the last part
Was me lmao on the fact that In this state theres a disparity in regards to force
Escalation. So again i apologize if my questions & statement came across in any
other way then how i just said it was asked, sincerly...Thanks for the Info. However My
Questions do remain unanswered and will probably remain so, they could only,
truly be answered by those with intimate knowledge of the incident, and because
of the lack of this info these kinds of Questions are often asked and
Misconstrued. My apology's Aloha
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of course this was justified... the police are our friends .... all police officers I have ever met have be very nice and polite regardless of circumstances.
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Surf,
Thanks for weighing in.
Interesting data point about prosecutors making their bones on an LEO conviction.
JGreen,
If you want to be taken seriously, make an honest attempt at asking your questions in a professional manner.
In an open forum like 2A, where most people are skirting anonymity, you're judged by how you write.
This is a forum, not facebook and not a text message.
I no what your saying and then some, you should not draw your conclusion of
One based upon the purely honest questions that they ask.. For you have no
Clue, of the one who asks, background, service, training or skill level. I totally
Concur with the actions taken & meant no disrespect in any way. And the last part
Was me lmao on the fact that In this state theres a disparity in regards to force
Escalation. So again i apologize if my questions & statement came across in any
other way then how i just said it was asked, sincerly...Thanks for the Info. However My
Questions do remain unanswered and will probably remain so, they could only,
truly be answered by those with intimate knowledge of the incident, and because
of the lack of this info these kinds of Questions are often asked and
Misconstrued. My apology's Aloha
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Taken seriously by whom? if and when im Judged by how I write, Interesting??? but thanks :shaka: GPAGAP. I will be sure to keep that in mind :thumbsup:, next time, if theres a next time :wtf:...I thought a question was just that a question and would be looked as such, I surely
didnt think that some may try to make as if something was implied I really thought i would have gotten a post, saying like no they do not carry pepper spray and yes he gave ground while continuing to shout commands etc I surely did not think that i would be refered to as unconciously incompetant for asking the questions i did and worse they so busy belittling me in the guise of constructive criticism that the questions i asked never were speculated on, unreal. i would have thought that all posted question would be looked at as if they were asked by someone who has no training or background in these types of matter and then answered accordingly. Boy was I wrong and worse to pass judgement on one ( I guess because its a 2a Hawaii firearms forum, its assumed that everybody has had training of some type and should know how to respond to such a situation )
whom you have no background knowledge of, in regards to there service to country, # of combat deployments, training and qualifications etc. but merely because of the question that was asked and the way it was asked. WOW!!! This experience has been enlightening and disheartening, based upon these kinds of responses why would anyone ask a question that needs to be asked? for fear of getting the same treatment, and there goes an opportunity to educate someone. Anyhow its clear to me the state of mind of many that are amongst us and i will surely keep that in mind the next time :wtf: if theres a next time. Thanks again GPAPAP Well stay safe all. ALOHA
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A few thoughts....
Et cetera....
Excellent, is all I got to say.
Oh, and thanks!
Terry, 230RN
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http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-of-man-shot-by-police-says/VDtatzVA1UWHpAnDhYKxpQ.cspx (http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-of-man-shot-by-police-says/VDtatzVA1UWHpAnDhYKxpQ.cspx)
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http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-of-man-shot-by-police-says/VDtatzVA1UWHpAnDhYKxpQ.cspx (http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/EXCLUSIVE-Mother-of-man-shot-by-police-says/VDtatzVA1UWHpAnDhYKxpQ.cspx)
Something smells wrotten in Denmark.
" I said boy, give it (the stake) to Mom. I need it for my roses."
While an officers pulling up and an arguments going on ?
Surf has it right. The officers going to have to deal with the aftermath. That might be harder than situation he pulled up to.
Especially if the mom's sticking to her story of no words were exchanged and the son was just retrieving her gardening tool. ( Which of course, doesn't sound right AT ALL )
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Something smells wrotten in Denmark.
" I said boy, give it (the stake) to Mom. I need it for my roses."
While an officers pulling up and an arguments going on ?
Surf has it right. The officers going to have to deal with the aftermath. That might be harder than situation he pulled up to.
Especially if the mom's sticking to her story of no words were exchanged and the son was just retrieving her gardening tool. ( Which of course, doesn't sound right AT ALL )
From what I understand the officer was responding to a domestic complaint. 911 tapes will back that up. Mom can BS all she wants.