2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Old Guy on April 13, 2013, 09:56:45 PM
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For those of you who are selling/sending a firearm out of state.
You can legally as a non FFL send it to a FFL in another state.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps)
Read 7 & 8.
This was confirmed byt Calling ATF and my FFL who researched it.
You MUST go thru UPS or FedEx or similar if shipping a handgun
Read and Understand the Shippers Rules and Reg.
KEEP ALL necessary Paper Work when shipping a registered Firearm out of state as paper trail.
Remember PD does NOT have De Registration Process.
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Thanks for that info! Knowledge is power!! :thumbsup:
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what if you ship it to the mfg for upgrades does it have to be shipped back via Hawaii FFL?
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what if you ship it to the mfg for upgrades does it have to be shipped back via Hawaii FFL?
No. It can be mailed back to your address.
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what if you ship it to the mfg for upgrades does it have to be shipped back via Hawaii FFL?
I know for a fact that rifles and shotguns can be sent right back to your home.
I'm not sure about handguns.
I seem to recall that they have to go through FFL.
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http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf)
FAQ # 7
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http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf)
FAQ # 7
7. May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?
Any person may ship firearms directly to a licensee in any State, with no requirement for another licensee to ship the firearm. However, handguns are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via common or contract carrier.(18 U.S.C. §§ 1715). Firearms shipped to FFLs for repair or any other lawful purpose may be returned to the person from whom received without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence. FFLs may also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received. 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A).
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I know for a fact that rifles and shotguns can be sent right back to your home.
I'm not sure about handguns.
I seem to recall that they have to go through FFL.
I have sent and received my pistols to the Mfg through FedEx for warranty repairs with no problems no need for FFL
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If I recall ffl is only needed to assist in change of ownership. In the case of the manufacture repair as long as you send it via ups or fedex your okay. A lot of times if you buy from a local lgs they do the for you. I just seen SEC do this the other day I know Daniel at KGS says he'll do it for his customers as well
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If you went to the mainland for say a couple months and wanted to purchase some firearms. How would it work bringing them back home after, registration wise?
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If you went to the mainland for say a couple months and wanted to purchase some firearms. How would it work bringing them back home after, registration wise?
copy and pasted from HPD's website.... "There is no 14-day waiting period for Out-of-State Registration. Once the firearm arrives in the state, you have 3 calendar days (72 Hours) to register it from the date it arrived."
go wait in line and register as out of state, all they ask is what state and who did you aquire it from and then your good to go after they run the serial numbers on the firearms.
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I've read that you can't buy handguns directly from the seller in any state if you're not a resident there. The seller would have to ship it to a Hawaii FFL holder FROM an FFL in the seller's state. Then you will be able to pick it up once you return to Hawaii and jump through all the permit hoops: permit to acquire, 14 day wait, etc. Also, a Hawaii FFL won't accept a package from a non-FFL sender. The Hawaii FFL holds the handgun until you produce the permit to acquire.
Long guns are different. As long as you are old enough, per that state's law, then you can buy and possess without being a resident there. Most mainland states don't register long guns at all.
Then, you can use a TSA-approved container to fly them home with you -- maybe paying the airline an additional "checked bag" fee as well. That's when the Hawaii 72-hour rule for out-of-state-purchased guns kicks in. If you don't have your long gun permit, the HPD firearms unit will be more than happy to look after your new long gun(s) for 2 weeks.
I've not done this, but that's my understanding based on reading. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. :oops:
Hope it helps! :shaka:
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Aloha, Moosed
I will try to purchase a long rifle up there n see if what u read is correct I hope it is cuz I heard .22lrrifles r pretty cheap unless someone answers the question B4 I go to Vegas. :shaka:
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I've read that you can't buy handguns directly from the seller in any state if you're not a resident there. \
Partial truth. Private sales are private sales.
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Partial truth. Private sales are private sales.
From the ATF Website:
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
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what if you sell your firearms to someone that picked it up from you locally and he takes it back to his state. what is your legal obligation?
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what if you sell your firearms to someone that picked it up from you locally and he takes it back to his state. what is your legal obligation?
You broke federal law(s). Anyone who sells a handgun to a stranger without verifying his own legal responsibilities is negligent. You can be charged with trafficking in guns illegally, particularly if the firearm is used in a crime, or if the buyer was ineligible to buy a handgun in his own state due to felony conviction, mental illness, drug dependency, etc. Chances are the firearm can be traced back to you ... the most direct way being the buyer telling authorities where he bought it.
You are obligated to ask for ID from anyone you don't know in order to determine their state of residence and age. It's merely common sense to ensure you're following the law. It's no different than selling a car. You have to follow state law regarding insurance, tag removal and turn-in, title transfer, and so on. If you can figure that out, then you can figure out who to ask how about selling a firearm legally.
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PRIVATE PARTY SHIPPING OF HANDGUNS.
I don't want you guys to make any FATAL mistakes.
Shipping Handgun to FFL for sale = FEDEX NEXT DAY AIR ONLY.
Shipping Handgun for REPAIR to FFL or Repair Facility = USPS (Priority or EMS) or FEDEX or UPS (Next Day)
If you tell UPS its a Handgun they may refuse to ship it.
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You broke federal law(s).
NOT TRUE.
IF SOMEONE BUYS A FIREARM FROM YOU IN HAWAII AND PRESENTS A PERMIT TO ACQUIRE, YOU'VE DONE YOUR PART TO ENSURE THAT A LEGAL TRANSACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE. WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT HE DOES WITH THE FIREARM AFTER YOU'VE LEGALLY SOLD IT TO HIM.
HE COULD TAKE IT TO ANOTHER STATE OR ANOTHER PLANET IF HE'D LIKE.
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NOT TRUE.
IF SOMEONE BUYS A FIREARM FROM YOU IN HAWAII AND PRESENTS A PERMIT TO ACQUIRE, YOU'VE DONE YOUR PART TO ENSURE THAT A LEGAL TRANSACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE. WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT HE DOES WITH THE FIREARM AFTER YOU'VE LEGALLY SOLD IT TO HIM.
HE COULD TAKE IT TO ANOTHER STATE OR ANOTHER PLANET IF HE'D LIKE.
The question asked was: what if you sell your firearms to someone that picked it up from you locally and he takes it back to his state. what is your legal obligation?
Where is the part about the buyer having a permit in the question?? I took this as a general question, not as a Hawaii-specific situation. In many states, no permit is needed for in-state, private transfers. Hence, the need to check ID for age and residency.
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The question asked was:
Where is the part about the buyer having a permit in the question?? I took this as a general question, not as a Hawaii-specific situation. In many states, no permit is needed for in-state, private transfers. Hence, the need to check ID for age and residency.
We're in Hawaii.
This forum is called 2aHawaii.
Who in Hawaii would sell a firearm without a permit to acquire? No one I know.
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The question asked was:
what if you sell your firearms to someone that picked it up from you locally and he takes it back to his state. what is your legal obligation?
Where is the part about the buyer having a permit in the question?? I took this as a general question, not as a Hawaii-specific situation. In many states, no permit is needed for in-state, private transfers. Hence, the need to check ID for age and residency.
We're in Hawaii.
This forum is called 2aHawaii.
Who in Hawaii would sell a firearm without a permit to acquire? No one I know.
Yes it's 2aHawaii and we (most of us) are in Hawaii, but I read it as a generalized question by MMM about selling to a non-resident that takes back to their home state. Whatever it might have been, you're both technically correct.
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Thanks, Colt808. I try not to make too many assumptions when reading the questions, but apparently not everyone is like that. If you get into the "if you're in Hawaii, or if you're in California, or if you're in Oklahoma..." the answer becomes too complicated, and usually unnecessarily. I boil it down to the federal requirements, then the state laws depend on where you live.
The overall answer I was trying to get to was this: KNOW THE FEDERAL ATF LAWS AND THE LAWS OF THE STATE WHERE YOU LIVE. If in Hawaii, the handgun seller must sign the Permit to Acquire. I, however, would still ask for the guy's ID, just to verify for myself the permit holder is the same guy in his driver license picture. You never know if the purchaser can't or won't meet in person, so he sends his buddy to do the deal. Some things are simply due diligence when meeting someone for the first time. Ask for ID and take a pic with your handy cell phone. There's no excuse for being too lazy or shy to ask for ID. If I've met the person before, then I'm not worried about identity.
There is no law that requires us to use common sense. I prefer to take the more prudent stance as a responsible gun owner (and to cover my own butt) versus doing only the minimum the law specifically states.
As we've discussed in these forums many times, it's up to the buyer and seller to agree on the details of a sale, including form of payment, meeting places, and what paperwork and permits must be created/presented or signed (bill of sale, permit, copy of ID, etc). As long as the legal minimum requirements are covered, the rest depends on how comfortable you BOTH are with the process.
I'm not comfortable selling a deadly weapon to a complete stranger unless the transfer is legal and properly documented TO MY SATISFACTION, not just to what the law states. If I ever find a detective at my door asking why my pistol was found at a crime scene, I have no reservations or difficulty providing documentation of a legal and properly handled transaction.
Saying you are not responsible for what the buyer does with the gun is true. But you are responsible to make sure the person you are selling the gun to meets the legal requirements for purchase insofar as you are able. Until the gov't requires background checks for private sales, it's up to the sellers to keep the guns from criminals. If anything about the buyer makes me suspicious, I would call off the sell. But maybe that's just me?
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We're in Hawaii.
This forum is called 2aHawaii.
Who in Hawaii would sell a firearm without a permit to acquire? No one I know.
It's comforting to know you don't associate with criminals or negligent gun sellers. I bet there are people in Hawaii who DO know somebody that's done exactly that!
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thanks guys. let me clarify what i was trying to get at.
1) i have a registered firearm in the state of hawaii.
2) i make contact and sell to someone from out of state that will pick up firearm here locally on his next trip.
3) what is my legal obligation to assure transfer is properly done?
4) do i have to check if he has a permit or registration policies from his state? or do i just need to check and log his ID.
5) re: registration in hawaii. do i have to notify local PD of transfer.
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thanks guys. let me clarify what i was trying to get at.
1) i have a registered firearm in the state of hawaii.
2) i make contact and sell to someone from out of state that will pick up firearm here locally on his next trip.
3) what is my legal obligation to assure transfer is properly done?
4) do i have to check if he has a permit or registration policies from his state? or do i just need to check and log his ID.
5) re: registration in hawaii. do i have to notify local PD of transfer.
The type of firearm matters. Handgun or long gun?
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long gun
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^^^No matter the type of firearm, I'd still go through a FFL to handle the transfer............only $30 more.
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Paper trails are king when selling firearms in my opinion.
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long gun
Federal ATF law states:
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. ...
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
That means the buyer can purchase from a dealer (licensee), not a private owner if not in their own state.
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
That means a private seller must transfer the firearm to the buyer's FFL, and the FFL will transfer the firearm to the buyer.
...then there is this:
Any lawfully acquired rifle or shotgun may be lent to an adult for use within the State for a period not to exceed fifteen days without a permit; provided that where the rifle or shotgun is to be used outside of the State, the loan may be for a period not to exceed seventy-five days.
(Hawaii Law HRS §134-4)
Hypothetically, if you were to loan the long gun to the friend for use after he returns home, and THEN you decide to sell it to him within the 75 day loan window, he should be able to acquire ownership as long as he abides by his state's laws. That probably means he takes it to an FFL to handle the out-of-state transfer requirements. Now, some states (like Hawaii) will not accept transfers from out-of-state unless it's from another FFL. As long as there's no requirement like that, it should be easy to find an FFL to help do the transfer ... HYPOTHETICALLY..
This is based on my reading the laws and trying to figure it out. I'm in no way an expert at this, and I've not had to deal with these issues personally. I have purchased on the Internet and gone through the process of "Mainland FFL"-to-"Hawaii FFL"-to-ME. As I posted earlier, ASK the state firearms authority (police) or an FFL in BOTH states what should be done. They are there to help you avoid being charged with a federal firearms crime. I strongly recommend you seek out their advice and follow it. :shaka:
Good luck.
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The question asked was:
Where is the part about the buyer having a permit in the question?? I took this as a general question, not as a Hawaii-specific situation. In many states, no permit is needed for in-state, private transfers. Hence, the need to check ID for age and residency.
You don't need to check for ID or age restrictions. However, failure to check for age restriction could land you in the "negligent" and/or "reckless" category if something goes wrong with it.
The brady campaign did a whole big thing on how they bought guns "without an ID" and even after telling people "they likely wouldn't pass a background check."