2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: ImKu on April 19, 2013, 01:05:46 PM
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I don't do competitions or even have that great a shot, but I was curious of how others judge how "accurate" a gun is. For example, when shooting at 100 yards people have told me that they can shoot sub MOA groups through whatever rifle they have. I look at their target and they shot 3x on one target and the other groups are more like 5 plus shots and more like 2-3MOA. I think consistency is really what is important in this. So I guess my question is how many shots would you consider taking to say that I shoot about ____ MOA with my <input gun here> ?
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I just read internet reviews.
The internet knows which guns are accurate and which are not.
I also watch movies. The heroes always use accurate guns.
;D
Consistency is the key, in all aspects: brass, primer, powder, load, bullet, seating depth, crimp, barrel temperature, air temp, barometric pressure, humidity, wind, etc. Unless you know that these many factors are consistent then you don't ~know~ for certain what the accuracy of your rifle is.
For most (honest) people its about what they can shoot with their favorite ammo fairly consistently. When someone tells me they can shoot sub-MOA I just smile and say "Cool." Most of the people who really can do so consistently usually don't feel the need to mention it.
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I just read internet reviews.
The internet knows which guns are accurate and which are not.
I also watch movies. The heroes always use accurate guns.
;D
Consistency is the key, in all aspects: brass, primer, powder, load, bullet, seating depth, crimp, barrel temperature, air temp, barometric pressure, humidity, wind, etc. Unless you know that these many factors are consistent then you don't ~know~ for certain what the accuracy of your rifle is.
For most (honest) people its about what they can shoot with their favorite ammo fairly consistently. When someone tells me they can shoot sub-MOA I just smile and say "Cool." Most of the people who really can do so consistently usually don't feel the need to mention it.
I can totally shoot Sub-MOA.
its the second shot that screws it all up :P
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I can totally shoot Sub-MOA.
its the second shot that screws it all up :P
You must speak of the "flyer" :rofl:
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Can you hit the broad side of a barn? I'd say its pretty accurate.
All depends on the gun..a nice bolt should do 1/2 moa (I can't too much caffeine and add). Or older guns like mauser, mosin and enfeilds looking at 2 moa is good at 100 yards.
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I can totally shoot Sub-MOA.
its the second shot that screws it all up :P
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Angle of pie plate at 100 yards. That's my standard for practical purposes.
Of course I'm pretty sure my guns are capable of better than that, but they can out shoot me.
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my "long gun" is very accurate
that's what she said
I don't do competitions or even have that great a shot, but I was curious of how others judge how "accurate" a gun is. For example, when shooting at 100 yards people have told me that they can shoot sub MOA groups through whatever rifle they have. I look at their target and they shot 3x on one target and the other groups are more like 5 plus shots and more like 2-3MOA. I think consistency is really what is important in this. So I guess my question is how many shots would you consider taking to say that I shoot about ____ MOA with my <input gun here> ?
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3 shot.....................gun and load
5 shot.....................gun and load + shooter
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3 shot.....................gun and load
5 shot.....................gun and load + shooter
Wow, I agree.
With my bolts, I normally shoot 5 shot groups.
First 3 shots I'm usually pretty consistent, nice and relaxed.
4 can go either way.
By Shot 5, if my first 4 are tight, like touching tight, I feel like the 18th hole of the Masters with a 1 shot lead. Pressures on.
That's why I love this sport/hobby whatever you want to call it.
With my AR's I'm still angle of pie plate at 100 yds. ( are we allowed to say angle of bad guy ? )
:stopjack:
I would think you would need to shoot from a lead sled or something similar to take take the human element out to really test the true accuracy of a firearm and particular load itself.
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5 shot groups only.
I've seen a gun have a fluke 1/2 inch MOA with a three shot but couldn't muster 2" with a five shot...
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5 shot group minimum
10 shots for my service rifle
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realistically, im angle of target frame. sometimes.
im new though, dont judge!
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Brian once told me if any of his guns doesnt shoot sub moa with him shooting he sells the gun or changes the barrel.
Makes sense you cant really fix a barrel to be more accurate. (well you can but not really worth it. Depends what the barrel is worth)
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5 shot minimum.
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Five shot groups is the gold standard.
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(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/photo-58.jpg)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/photo-59.jpg)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/photo-51.jpg)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/308jpg.jpg)
(http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af127/heaviescc/photo-91.jpg)
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For most people, shooting 10 3-round groups, at least one of them will be sub MOA.
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I think it was Jack O'Connor who said he was only interested in the one-shot group.
Shoot enough and sooner or later you'll get that sub 1" group to brag about. "Accuracy" depends on how soon that occurs.
Way prior to the AR series of rifles getting popular, I finally found an ancient .223 Rem Savage rifle which actually shot 3/8" groups consistently, all day long. The first five shots I made with it told me it was a real shooter. That was over thirty years ago and I've eliminated literally, no screwing around, over 2000 pesky prairie dogs with it at all kinds of ranges out to 300 yards after I mounted a 12X scope on it.
The only problem I had with it was really wind-sensitive with those light varmint bullets I was using, but I got pretty good at doping wind and mirage. Had to.
I'm sure it's beginning to lose its accuracy by now, but nevertheless, I felt darned lucky to find that gun and I'll never sell it. (Haven't actually shot it in more than ten years.)
Terry, 230RN
It. (And me):
(http://arviel.loesch.org/prairiedog.jpg)
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Nice to know my rifle shoots better than I can, but I'm just concerned with where the first shot goes.
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For most people, shooting 10 3-round groups, at least one of them will be sub MOA.
Yep. Which is why 3 round groups are worthless besides for 'bragging' rights. This is why you hear people exclaim they can shoot sub MOA with M193, or hell even M855 when the ammo itself is 3-4 MOA.
For me its 10 round groups. I've seen other people shoot 6 consecutive 5 shot groups as well to get a good idea of the accuracy (and no cherry picking the groups).
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I can totally shoot Sub-MOA.
its the second shot that screws it all up :P
:rofl:
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I think it was Jack O'Connor who said he was only interested in the one-shot group.
Shoot enough and sooner or later you'll get that sub 1" group to brag about. "Accuracy" depends on how soon that occurs..............
Wait...........one hole group or 1 shot group?
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^ One shot.
Just a hunter's way of looking at it: Minute of Mule Deer or Bighorn Sheep or Cape Buffalo vitals.
I guess I should have explained that, maybe. He was a prolific gun, hunting,
and fishing writer.
Was real big on the .270 Winchester caliber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_O'Connor_(American_writer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_O'Connor_(American_writer))
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sub MOA? really? perhaps in an ideal environment ie. ON BENCH, with a bi-pod, no distractions, stationary target, and a scope that can see an ants ass. not saying it cant be done on iron sights. but under any ideal conditions properly applied fundamentals and a properly sighted weapon can nail "sub MOA" all day long. :rofl:
i guess my point is I dont understand why some people feel they need to live out a bench sniper fantasy. to me I'd rather be accurate when it matters under the worst conditions possible ie. being shot at, moving target, running and gunning, and no stable platform to apply all the fundamentals of shooting. :shaka:
just my two Lincolns
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sub MOA? really? perhaps in an ideal environment ie. ON BENCH, with a bi-pod, no distractions, stationary target, and a scope that can see an ants ass. not saying it cant be done on iron sights. but under any ideal conditions properly applied fundamentals and a properly sighted weapon can nail "sub MOA" all day long. :rofl:
i guess my point is I dont understand why some people feel they need to live out a bench sniper fantasy. to me I'd rather be accurate when it matters under the worst conditions possible ie. being shot at, moving target, running and gunning, and no stable platform to apply all the fundamentals of shooting. :shaka:
just my two Lincolns
Well, from how I read your post you are talking about two different styles of shooting correct? Are you not considering recreation and/or competitive shooting? I enjoy the capability of taking long distance shots and shooting while on the move. I would love to know where you train to be accurate at "running and gunning" with a long gun in hawaii. For me, there's only so many military courses that one can take. I still haven't found anyplace that one can do it locally with. I've been very tempted to attend classes on the mainland...
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The question posed was about accuracy of the rifle, not the performance of the shooter under various shooting scenarios. A certain amount of mechanical accuracy from the rifle combined with the correct ammo choice is a very critical combination to many who use the weapon for professional uses. I know for a precision scoped rifle, I definitely have a standard that I would require of myself, my ammunition and my rifle to be able to perform under a variety of conditions. Therefore I opt for 5 round groups spread out over various days. They must include cold bore or cold shooter groups only. I would want to track up to 15-20 groups and ONLY take an AVERAGE of those group sizes to come up with a number. Not the super wonderful one hole group out of those 15 -20 groups and claim it. Too many people are far too forgiving when relating their shooting ability and / or their rifles accuracy when it comes to precision.
Now if you are talking pure mechanical accuracy of an action or the rifle, it would need to be placed in a device that minimizes or mostly eliminates negative influence on the weapon and / or the human factor. But ammo selection and conditions can be a big influence.
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^
:thumbsup:
!
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Just fired my first Mosin ever that I bought off of Gun Broker. Mosin Nagant 91/30 1936 Tula Hex. Fired about 20 rounds to get used to it (and to make sure it even worked!). Once I figured out it was shooting high, as I've been told is common for this gun, I repaired my sight-in target and here's the result of a single, 5-round "group" at 50 yards. I also rang the steel plate at 245 yards a few times, too! Ammo used was Bulgarian 1970's era surplus 7.62x54R from OGC -- the 440 rnd SPAM Can. I'm thinking this rifle might be a keeper! :thumbsup:
(http://20130421_140322.jpg)
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Well, from how I read your post you are talking about two different styles of shooting correct? Are you not considering recreation and/or competitive shooting? I enjoy the capability of taking long distance shots and shooting while on the move. I would love to know where you train to be accurate at "running and gunning" with a long gun in hawaii. For me, there's only so many military courses that one can take. I still haven't found anyplace that one can do it locally with. I've been very tempted to attend classes on the mainland...
Difficult to find a place like that in Hawaii, but you can improvise. You can do this with an airsoft rifle in your backyard. Or at Koko Head, leave your rifle on the line and do a couple laps in the parking lot then try firing a sub MOA group. If you can, then you da man.
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Just fired my first Mosin ever that I bought off of Gun Broker. Mosin Nagant 91/30 1936 Tula Hex. Fired about 20 rounds to get used to it (and to make sure it even worked!). Once I figured out it was shooting high, as I've been told is common for this gun, I repaired my sight-in target and here's the result of a single, 5-round "group" at 50 yards. I also rang the steel plate at 245 yards a few times, too! Ammo used was Bulgarian 1970's era surplus 7.62x54R from OGC -- the 440 rnd SPAM Can. I'm thinking this rifle might be a keeper! :thumbsup:
(http://20130421_140322.jpg)
Glad to hear that. Did you fix the bayonet? I'm told that the sights were factory-regulated with the bayonet on. How was the recoil and (without me looking it up), what was the weight of the bullet? I found that the 180 gr bullets (Winchester white box) set me back a step on launching.
I also found that single-loading cartridges was difficult. The extractor does not ride over the rim easily and the bolt is very difficult to close. There's a fix for this which invvolves a tiny bit of dremel tool grinding, but I'm real hesitant to cut any metal at all.
Also, no pic in your post.
Terry, 230RN