2aHawaii

General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: lippy laroux on April 27, 2013, 05:43:58 PM

Title: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: lippy laroux on April 27, 2013, 05:43:58 PM
What if we could convince every Gun owner in this state to flood each county police chief with as many CC permits as possible? So many that there were too many to even review and process.  If they are denied; rinse and repete.... Does anyone know how many gun owners we have here?  Does anyone think it might send a message? We need to coordinate so they arrive on the desk for review en mass..  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: djsmiles808 on April 27, 2013, 05:52:26 PM
  :thumbsup: sounds legit
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: lippy laroux on April 27, 2013, 06:05:59 PM
When you apply; does the process involve sending information back to the applicant as to why they were rejected?   Or can they just stamp "denied" on it without a reason?  Get enough denials and we could possibly file a class action suit and make them defend in court and publicly their position with regard to whether or not the petition was denied based upon sound reasoning or a political agenda. 
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 27, 2013, 06:23:43 PM
I believe our chief has an industrial strength shredder for this purpose.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Haoleb on April 27, 2013, 06:28:22 PM
I would be up for this. I have considered going to the PD to apply only to be denied. Then at least I could write in on how disgusted I am that I am denied the simple right to self defense.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: lippy laroux on April 27, 2013, 06:30:25 PM
So you get nothing back?  Not even an answer?  Sounds like a due process violation to me...
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 27, 2013, 06:37:52 PM
Ill can tell u his answer with 99.999999% certainty right now...

Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: OldFaithful on April 27, 2013, 06:40:35 PM
I think it would be a start to getting cc for Hawaii.  EVERYONE apply and obviously get denied.  Ridiculous how its up to the chief of police who gets the right to defend themselves.  I dont know if its true, but I heard his wife has a cc permit.  The self defense laws also need to change here if we're gonna have cc.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: bass monkey on April 27, 2013, 06:42:21 PM
Chris posted about this before he filed his claim against them to have a lot of people be denied.  Now that its in court they are claiming only a handful of people apply every year. 5 or something like that, a low single digit number.

Are you planning to sue the police department for 2a violations as well?

You also get a letter saying your ccw application was denied. 
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: DeejayTTHawaii on April 27, 2013, 06:45:16 PM
I'm game!  O0
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: lippy laroux on April 27, 2013, 07:01:17 PM
Chris posted about this before he filed his claim against them to have a lot of people be denied.  Now that its in court they are claiming only a handful of people apply every year. 5 or something like that, a low single digit number.

Are you planning to sue the police department for 2a violations as well?

You also get a letter saying your ccw application was denied.
[/quote

Is it a form letter or a specific answer to your request?]  If these denials are can be shown to be favoritism or politically motivated we may eventually be able to pressure the lawmakers into accepting CC.   We need to shame the people that would provide protection for "thier Families" yet block the "common " Kama'aina  their rights just based upon a political agenda.   That will force the state legislature to either crap or get off the pot so to speak and enable CC to become mainstream and alighn our laws with the rest of the civilized world.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: bass monkey on April 27, 2013, 07:09:32 PM
Form letter. I believe someone posted a copy of theirs too. Try do a search on it. Lots of threads covering it.

Are you planning to sue the police department?
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: 230RN on April 27, 2013, 10:44:32 PM
How much is the application fee?

Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: tcsmthop on April 28, 2013, 07:45:51 PM
Good idea lippy
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: 230RN on April 28, 2013, 08:54:43 PM
How much is the application fee?

Well, I was thinking it might be better (and cheaper) to just flood them with requests for applications.

Terry, 230RN
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: William Smith on April 28, 2013, 09:07:39 PM
I think everyone who is eligible and wants a permit should apply. While they may not grant permits for what ever reasons, I guarantee no one will get one if they don't apply.  Simply flooding them with requests for applications doesnt carry the same message as actually applying (and being denied).  "I didn't apply because I just knew I'd be denied"  probably won't cut it if there was subsequent legal action.  The antisipatory denial defense. ..  I know that was original idea though- flood with applications requests. Interesting how we took that and ran...
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: William Smith on April 28, 2013, 09:10:02 PM
Correction on my part below that wasn't the original question the question was what would happen if we flooded them with as many permit applications as possible. I like that idea I think it might help
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: OldFaithful on April 28, 2013, 09:27:54 PM
I think we can all agree that if we don't try anything then nothing will happen.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 28, 2013, 09:46:09 PM
I don't think mass applications could hurt, it can only help chris' case. It's definitely better than doing nothing.  :thumbsup:

I actually just applied for mine last week with full expectations of being denied.

But, if we don't try then it will be assumed that we don't want it......we need them to acknowledge the demand!! We can't just sit back and think that doing nothing will get a result!!
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Bunker on April 28, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
Here is the application and some guidance from Hawaii Concealed Carry (Funtimes) for those interested. Not sure if the forms and guidance he lists have been updated or not but he can advise and comment as necessary.

Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 28, 2013, 10:06:14 PM
Here is the application....not sure if the forms have been updated or not.

The application has changed, it's only 1 page and allows for only one handgun. Also, there are no questions....those are covered on different forms. I took a pic of it...I'll try to post it.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on April 28, 2013, 10:44:41 PM
Here is the application....not sure if the forms have been updated or not.

The application has changed, it's only 1 page and allows for only one handgun. Also, there are no questions....those are covered on different forms. I took a pic of it...I'll try to post it.

Does the form look like this?

http://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013/01/2010-Application.pdf (http://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013/01/2010-Application.pdf)
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 28, 2013, 10:46:54 PM


Does the form look like this?

http://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013/01/2010-Application.pdf (http://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013/01/2010-Application.pdf)
No, it's only one page.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 28, 2013, 10:47:11 PM
That looks to be the one for retired leo
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on April 28, 2013, 10:51:39 PM
LEOSA

I figured that out just now ...   :wave:
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Bunker on April 28, 2013, 10:54:53 PM
LEOSA

I figured that out just now ...   :wave:
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Bunker on April 28, 2013, 10:59:34 PM
No, it's only one page.
I guess we'll just wait for your camera shot to see the current form being used.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 28, 2013, 10:59:40 PM
Here it is, sorry for the poor quality...took a fast pic with my phone before I filled it out.

(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp135/PLANETPIZZO/CCWFORM.jpg) (http://s405.photobucket.com/user/PLANETPIZZO/media/CCWFORM.jpg.html)

It was accompanied by other forms such as a medical waiver, medical questionnaire and a criminal background questionnaire.

Almost forgot, on the back was the section where you can tell Kealoha why you need/want a CCW permit.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Jl808 on April 29, 2013, 08:28:45 AM
Almost forgot, on the back was the section where you can tell Kealoha why you need/want a CCW permit.

I was thinking that putting the text of the 2nd amendment *should* be sufficient, no?
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 29, 2013, 08:36:12 AM
I'm curious as to what's the "qualification score".
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 29, 2013, 08:49:13 AM
I was thinking that putting the text of the 2nd amendment *should* be sufficient, no?
Ha...I wish it was that easy!
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on April 29, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
I'm curious as to what's the "qualification score".

Quote
(b)  The chief of police of each county shall adopt procedures to require that any person granted a license to carry a concealed weapon on the person shall:

     (1)  Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;

     (2)  Appear to be a suitable person to be so licensed;

     (3)  Not be prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm; and

     (4)  Not have been adjudged insane or not appear to be mentally deranged.

The issuing Chief of Police can set minimum proficiency requirements for issuing a carry permit.  My assumption is you have to go to the range and demonstrate you can properly use the firearm.  Your qualification score will have to meet whatever minimum standard they set.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: 230RN on April 29, 2013, 02:18:06 PM
I was thinking that putting the text of the 2nd amendment *should* be sufficient, no?

For applicants in some mainland states which require a "reason," the recomended response is "for all lawful purposes."   FWIW
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 29, 2013, 02:35:05 PM
Nice. How can you argue with that?

For applicants in some mainland states which require a "reason," the recomended response is "for all lawful purposes."   FWIW
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: TeamMidori on April 29, 2013, 02:41:38 PM
I know someone who appeared to be a suitable person...

This person also did not appear to be mentally deranged...

So I married her. Damn appearances.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Pizzo on April 30, 2013, 09:09:32 PM
I know someone who appeared to be a suitable person...

This person also did not appear to be mentally deranged...

So I married her. Damn appearances.
Dang, I hate when that happens...lol!  :rofl:
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Gd4udog on May 01, 2013, 06:33:58 AM
LETS GO!!!
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: GZire on May 01, 2013, 09:01:36 AM
The issuing Chief of Police can set minimum proficiency requirements for issuing a carry permit.  My assumption is you have to go to the range and demonstrate you can properly use the firearm.  Your qualification score will have to meet whatever minimum standard they set.


For an anti-2A police chief I think that would be a safe assumption.

I think the pro-2A person would cite the fact that you are required to take a safety course in order to acquire the pistol anyway and that should satisfy the requirement.

Anyhow, unless the chiefs are forced into acting differently..............
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on May 01, 2013, 09:13:02 AM

For an anti-2A police chief I think that would be a safe assumption.

I think the pro-2A person would cite the fact that you are required to take a safety course in order to acquire the pistol anyway and that should satisfy the requirement.

Anyhow, unless the chiefs are forced into acting differently..............

As a pro-2A person, I believe the CCW holder should show proficiency.  Taking a 3-hour classroom and 2 hour hands on introductory course does not substitute for actual skill and practice.  The military didn't do that.  We had the training, and THEN we had to qualify.  Training does not equal proficiency ... that needs to be measured and evaluated.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: GZire on May 01, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
As a pro-2A person, I believe the CCW holder should show proficiency.  Taking a 3-hour classroom and 2 hour hands on introductory course does not substitute for actual skill and practice.  The military didn't do that.  We had the training, and THEN we had to qualify.  Training does not equal proficiency ... that needs to be measured and evaluated.


I understand your concern about proficiency and to an extent I agree as I think the current requirements are inadequate.  I've taken classes with military who are pretty bad with a handgun.  This being after they came back from deployment in Iraq where they were issued M9's to pull guard duty.

That being said, carrying concealed or not people are allowed to own without being proficient and nowhere in the 2nd Amendment does it say proficiency.  It is my desire that if you CCW you seek further training, but it should not be a requirement.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Haoleb on May 01, 2013, 12:54:21 PM
Just got back from Kona PD. Dropped off my application for a CWP. I found an application form online here:

http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/ (http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/)

Apparently this Hawaii county form was obtained through the freedom of infomation act. I filled out the form, printed out two passport photos (just incase) and also brought with me my handgun registration, safety class affidavit.. etc again just incase. Also had to get the last page notarized.

At the station the firearms clerk who handles all the firearms stuff said she had not seen that form before and did not really know what info I needed or documents. She had called someone else to ask and then simply took my form and my photos and said they will get to the chief on friday. We will see what they say. I do not get the feeling they have many inquiries to concealed carry permits there. We need to change that.

On a side note, I see that they have new hours for firearms registration in Kona which is awesome. Now it is 8:30-2:30 Mon-Fri instead of the jumbled mess it was before :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: William Smith on May 01, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
Thanks for the link to that form.  Interesting.  First one i've seen, but again, I don't even have any firearms......yet
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on May 01, 2013, 01:20:50 PM
Just got back from Kona PD. Dropped off my application for a CWP. I found an application form online here:

http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/ (http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/)

The folks who have filled out the Honolulu form say that link is to the old form.  The new one is one page with only room for one handgun description. 
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Haoleb on May 01, 2013, 01:28:59 PM
The folks who have filled out the Honolulu form say that link is to the old form.  The new one is one page with only room for one handgun description.

Hmm well, I was not offered any other form while I was there. I would assume they might not even have one. I'll have to see where it goes from here I guess.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: Bunker on May 01, 2013, 01:40:01 PM
Hmm well, I was not offered any other form while I was there. I would assume they might not even have one. I'll have to see where it goes from here I guess.
I don't think it matters what form is used and we know they don't get many requests. I think you could submit a thesis or dissertation and the outcome would likely be the same but no harm in applying. At least if everyone starts putting in a application since they have business to do there anyway, the application numbers will increase and bolster the case.
Title: Re: Idea on Concealed Carry
Post by: moosed on May 01, 2013, 01:48:24 PM
Is there anything that limits the number of times, or the frequency, that a a single individual can apply for CCW?  I mean, other than what might be seen as becoming a nuisance?

Once you are denied, why not try again?  And again?  As long as there are no time limit restrictions, you could hypothetically apply the day you receive the denial letter.

Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D
Are we there yet?     >:D