2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: HiCarry on May 10, 2013, 10:01:33 AM
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I know that there has been some discussion about having lot's of folks apply for a concealed carry permit. I think it's a good one and something HRA is going to support. But, we have to think this through a bit if we hope to be successful.
One of the issues presented by the Chief in the past is that concealed carry isn't a big deal because only a handful of people apply each year and that number is reflected in the annual AG's report. But, we know from Chris Baker's prior attempt at something similar, that the numbers reported didn't quite match the number of permits we know individuals applied for.
So, while I would really like to see hundreds of people apply for the permits, I also want to make sure that if the AG's report accurately reports those numbers and that we have the data to refute it if it doesn't. So, that's the question, how do we accurately track those submitting requests?
So, I have two requests: Let's figure out how to keep track of those applying and let's make sure that those that have already applied this year are included into that data base.
What say you?
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^^^Good idea I think.
A better idea would be to have a bunch of people take a day off and all apply at the same time.
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^^^Good idea I think.
A better idea would be to have a bunch of people take a day off and all apply at the same time.
That might be part of the bigger strategy. For example, once we get our database issues resolved, why not do just that, have a large group descend on the HPD station but invite local news and media outlets to be there as well.......
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Maybe you can keep a running spreadsheet that has actual name, member screen name, date applied, date of determination letter, etc? We could advise you and follow up with documents to you SEPCOR via email (i.e. photographed application, scanned determination letter). We could black out all PII so there would not be any personal sensitive info concerns. I would have no issue with sending you the blacked out documents but I don't think having a bunch on applications/letters with PII floating around publicly would be a good idea.
Then you or someone could have a running pinned thread that you or someone updates on the forum as required based on your received data. Wouldn't necessarily have to put a name to the list, just numbers and maybe month and year applied/determination, but you would have the actual names and pertinent info, and 2a forum members would also know how many from the forum actually applied.
Or maybe we could just tell you the date of application and date of determination letter and what their determination was, but that may not provide you the details you would like to track. Also, you wouldn't really know if those actions did occur because you did not see the actual documents, and it may become difficult for you to locate the individual later, and you wouldn't really be able to factually state that as a true, verifiable fact with 100% certainty.
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yup
either sticky post here
or a google doc
Maybe you can keep a running spreadsheet that has actual name, member screen name, date applied, date of determination letter, etc? We could advise you and follow up with documents to you SEPCOR via email (i.e. photographed application, scanned determination letter). We could black out all PII so there would not be any personal sensitive info concerns. I would have no issue with sending you the blacked out documents but I don't think having a bunch on applications/letters with PII floating around publicly would be a good idea.
Then you or someone could have a running pinned thread that you or someone updates on the forum as required based on your received data. Wouldn't necessarily have to put a name to the list, just numbers and maybe month and year applied/determination, but you would have the actual names and pertinent info, and 2a forum members would also know how many from the forum actually applied.
Or maybe we could just tell you the date of application and date of determination letter and what their determination was, but that may not provide you the details you would like to track. Also, you wouldn't really know if those actions did occur because you did not see the actual documents, and it may become difficult for you to locate the individual later, and you wouldn't really be able to factually state that as a true, verifiable fact with 100% certainty.
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I will re-apply from the big island when you folks do. I will also see if I could get others to apply also.
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I am willing to do my part on Maui. I want to apply but I want to research this enough where when I go in and apply I will be taken seriously. Need to know what reasons to state on the application so that MPD Chief Yabuta will acknowledge my application.
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I will re-apply from the big island when you folks do. I will also see if I could get others to apply also.
You can try to anyway. I dropped off my application a few weeks ago and have not heard anything. Probably went straight into the shredder ::)
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Pastor Dennis, Mauiblue - Thanks. We'll make sure everybody is in the loop so it can be a statewide effort. Still trying to work out a tracking system but have been too busy to look into it....still trying.
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I will monitor this and coincide mine with yours.
Amen
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You can try to anyway. I dropped off my application a few weeks ago and have not heard anything. Probably went straight into the shredder ::)
Same here, still waiting for my "letter of denial" from Chief Kealoha. :grrr:
However, as soon as I get that letter or whenever the "tracking & recording" system is setup I'll give the info needed to add me to the roster!! :thumbsup:
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Look what came in the mail today!
(http://www.haoleb.com/pics/denied.jpg)
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This is the same exact letter I got the first time too.
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Look what came in the mail today!
(http://www.haoleb.com/pics/denied.jpg)
Definitely unfortuneate that you were denied but at least you did you're part in applying.....great job!! :thumbsup:
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What did you put for the reason to have a permit?
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What did you put for the reason to have a permit?
I don't remember verbatim but something along the lines of I am a law abiding and responsible citizen and should be allowed a means to self defense outside of the home as guaranteed to me by the 2nd amendment of the united states of america and that I should be able to have the same level of protection as police officers and private armed guards.
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HMMMM........I wonder if you get placed on a special roster if you applied for a CCW in Hawaii when it was denied?
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HMMMM........I wonder if you get placed on a special roster if you applied for a CCW in Hawaii when it was denied?
Well, several years ago my HPD recruit application got denied. I turned in my CCW app after already doing the written test. Turned in the PQ packet and was waiting for the clarification interview.
On the rejection phone call it was because of "inconsistensies" with my previous PQ packet (which is what the clarification interview is for). In the rejection letter the chief said my type of character was not desired.
Damn right we're on a list.
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well if that letter says call the police immediately if our lives or property is being threatened maybe we should call the police every minute of our lives :D
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Well, several years ago my HPD recruit application got denied. I turned in my CCW app after already doing the written test. Turned in the PQ packet and was waiting for the clarification interview.
On the rejection phone call it was because of "inconsistensies" with my previous PQ packet (which is what the clarification interview is for). In the rejection letter the chief said my type of character was not desired.
Damn right we're on a list.
Wow! I wonder how many people are on that list and if that can be retrieved via FOIA? If so, one could actually see who had submitted for a CCW vs those who say they will and have not submitted for one. Very interesting!
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well if that letter says call the police immediately if our lives or property is being threatened maybe we should call the police every minute of our lives :D
Well said Sir!
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Wow! I wonder how many people are on that list and if that can be retrieved via FOIA? If so, one could actually see who had submitted for a CCW vs those who say they will and have not submitted for one. Very interesting!
Good idea FOIA
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Well, several years ago my HPD recruit application got denied. I turned in my CCW app after already doing the written test. Turned in the PQ packet and was waiting for the clarification interview.
On the rejection phone call it was because of "inconsistensies" with my previous PQ packet (which is what the clarification interview is for). In the rejection letter the chief said my type of character was not desired.
Damn right we're on a list.
Although it wouldn't surprise me... I don't think they expend that much effort into anything lol. Not at that level.
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Here's why we need concealed carry and HPD is a penus for denying us our right, then punishing us for excercising this right.
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Retired Detective Sentenced For Killing His Wife
By Metro News
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(Big Island, HI) -- A retired L-A police detective is sentenced to 20 years for killing his wife. Dan DeJarnette was sentenced yesterday for beating his wife to death near their home on the Big Island in 2006. He was released after the initial arrest around the time of the murder, but was arrested again last year after more D-N-A testing.
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Everyone please check PMs. Anyone who has applied for CCW or has an interest to please do so now and then contact wolfwood for an important update. The process as I know of is get some passport photos ($4.99 for 4 at Costco is a good deal) and fill out the form at the HPD registration window. You may prepare a letter outlining your request as well, otherwise it's a similar process to filling out permits to acquire. Have a copy of the handgun registration for the firearm you intend to carry.
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I wish I had seen this earlier. I just got home from hpd. Any details of the important update or is it info that should not be posted on open forum?
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.
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I understand about the food, baby brotha but we're still friends
"May your chains set lightly upon you"
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If we could get changes or just get a "Stand your ground law" here. Right now if some 5 time meth head felon breaks into my house and threatens my family and I shoot him, I go to jail.
If we can change that maybe there would be more justification for CCW? IDK its all so backwards
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If we could get changes or just get a "Stand your ground law" here. Right now if some 5 time meth head felon breaks into my house and threatens my family and I shoot him, I go to jail.
If we can change that maybe there would be more justification for CCW? IDK its all so backwards
That's because you left off "and kill" after "I shoot". When the law is looking for a reason to punish the victim, it's best if there is only one version of events ...
So many stupid laws are chock full of unintended consequences. When wounding entails more chance of jail than killing, guess what the result will be?
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Everyone please check PMs. Anyone who has applied for CCW or has an interest to please do so now and then contact Chris/funtimes for an important update. The process as I know of is get some passport photos ($4.99 for 4 at Costco is a good deal) and fill out the form at the HPD registration window. You may prepare a letter outlining your request as well, otherwise it's a similar process to filling out permits to acquire.
Might do it this Friday since I usually have the time. Wonder if mentioning how 13(?) other states allow me with Washington's permit, and LEOSA (ish) does too.
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Might do it this Friday since I usually have the time. Wonder if mentioning how 13(?) other states allow me with Washington's permit, and LEOSA (ish) does too.
Let it be on official record. (Other states ask for copies of licenses or other permits on their application, Hawaii does not as I recall but I listed them + recent training anyways) It should only help and lend more credence to the request. Hawaii is one of the last remaining "may issue" states. Chris has led the way with his case, now we are asked to join the fight! I would hope everyone here at 2AHawaii will do so, all shop owners, all HRA members, all supporters of the 2nd Amendment. "If not now, when, if not us, who?" JOIN US - MAHALO
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If we could get changes or just get a "Stand your ground law" here. Right now if some 5 time meth head felon breaks into my house and threatens my family and I shoot him, I go to jail.
If we can change that maybe there would be more justification for CCW? IDK its all so backwards
Actually when it comes to dwellings Hawaii does have the castle doctrine, you do not have to retreat from your own house. That doesn't mean you can shoot a burglar in the back simply because you seem him in your house, you still need to articulate your fear, the dangers of the situation, etc.
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Even that is incorrect.
The intruder must actively and violently be forcing his/her way into your home with the intention to violently assault or kill you, and you must not have any other alternative action or route to safety in order to be justified.
And if they can find a way to prove that you had another choice and are therefore in the wrong, you can bet your ass they are going to spend time trying to find you guilty rather than focus on the person invading your home.
...and when the cops arrive to find the perp dead inside my house with a 21" machete in his hand, it'll be my word against .... well, just my word! :thumbsup:
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FWIW, in the early '70s, I did see the permits of CCW that was issued.
The ID cards took up about 2/3 of a shoe box. Yep, that's how they were stored.
According to C & C "rules" all Tests (including CCW) are supposed to be Public Record
and Available to the Public at the City Clerks Office.
Again, I did get to see the entire test. Should have gotten a complete set when I did.
HPD later pulled everything related to CCW.
Later, I did try to get a copy thru my friend at the Mayor's Office and my City Councilperson.
NOPE, HPD wasn't going to release anything because CCW is NOT issued so no NEED to see test and other info.
What is Needed is to change the law to SHALL ISSUE from MAY Issue.
We Need to convince a handful of legislators on our side to introduce same bills in Senate and House.
Watch Every LE organization in Hawaii show up and Testify Against Shall Issue.
We NEED to fill the hearing room with Pro 2a testimony. Flood the Fax and Email with Pro Shall Issue testimony.
Even if we don't get it the first time, having 100s of Pro testimony will be noticed.
You want to get their attention, get 200 Women out protesting for Shall Issue in the Capitol Rotunda.
I understand that's how Alaska got theirs.
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I like that there is major discussion on the CCW movement. I as many of you believe it is needed in this day and age. More importantly it is stated in our constitution, "the right to bear arms"! I am a first time handgun owner whose permit will be available next week, I can then pick up my G17. Please keep me informed of this movement by PM if that is how it will be shared. I will follow this thread and any other regarding CCW on 2a Hawaii for sure.
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Even that is incorrect.
The intruder must actively and violently be forcing his/her way into your home with the intention to violently assault or kill you, and you must not have any other alternative action or route to safety in order to be justified.
And if they can find a way to prove that you had another choice and are therefore in the wrong, you can bet your ass they are going to spend time trying to find you guilty rather than focus on the person invading your home.
That is incorrect. You do not have to retreat in your home or place of business:
§703-304 Use of force in self-protection. (1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.
(2) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.
(3) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.
(4) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:
(a) To resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or
(b) To resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:
(i) The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest; or
(ii) The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.
(5) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:
(a) The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or
(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:
(i) The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and
(ii) A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties, or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape, is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform his duty, effect the arrest, or prevent the escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom the action is directed.
(6) The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; ree L 1975, c 163, §3; am L 2001, c 91, §4]
Furthermore, to take advantage of the "Castle Doctrine" law, one does not need to articulate that "[T]he intruder must actively and violently be forcing his/her way into your home with the intention to violently assault or kill you, and you must not have any other alternative action or route to safety in order to be justified."
Here's the statue:
[§663‑1.57] Owner to felon; limited liability. (a) An owner, including but not limited to a public entity, of any estate or any other interest in real property, whether possessory or nonpossessory, or any agent of the owner lawfully on the premises by consent of the owner, shall not be liable to any perpetrator engaged in any of the felonies set forth in subsection (b) for any injury or death to the perpetrator that occurs upon that property during the course of or after the commission of such felony, or when a reasonable person would believe that commission of a felony as set forth in subsection (b) is imminent; provided that if the perpetrator is injured, the perpetrator is charged with the criminal offense and convicted of the criminal offense or of a lesser included felony or misdemeanor.
(b) This section applies to the following felonies:
(1) Murder in the first or second degree;
(2) Attempted murder in the first or second degree;
(3) Any class A felony as provided in the Hawaii Penal Code, including any attempt or conspiracy to commit a crime classified as a class A felony;
(4) Any class B felony involving violence or physical harm as provided in the Hawaii Penal Code;
(5) Any felony punishable by imprisonment for life;
(6) Any other felony in which the person inflicts serious bodily injury on another person; and
(7) Any felony in which the person personally used a firearm or a dangerous or deadly weapon.
(c) The limitation on liability under this section arises:
(1) At the moment the perpetrator commences the felony to which this section applies; or
(2) At the moment the owner or agent of the owner lawfully on the premises by consent of the owner believes that a commission of a felony under subsection (b) is imminent;
and extends to the moment the perpetrator is no longer upon the property.
(d) The limitation on liability under this section applies only when the perpetrator's conduct in furtherance of the commission of a felony specified in subsection (b) proximately or legally causes the injury or death.
(e) This section does not limit the liability of an owner that otherwise exists for:
(1) Wilful, wanton, or criminal conduct; or
(2) Wilful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, or structure; or
(3) Injury or death caused to individuals other than the perpetrator of the felony.
(f) Except with regard to [subsections] (e)(1) and (e)(3), the limitation of liability under this section shall not be affected by the failure of the owner to warn the perpetrator of the felony that the owner is armed and ready to cause bodily harm or death.
(g) For purposes of this section, "owner" means the owner, the occupant, tenant, or anyone authorized to be on the property by the owner or the occupant, including a guest or a family or household member, employee, or agent of the owner lawfully on the premises.
(h) The limitation on liability provided by this section shall be in addition to any other available defense. [L 2010, c 97, §1]
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Hawaii's Castle Doctrine sucks !
See above post and read the whole thing. ( the law I mean. )
:stopjack: of CCW permit initiative.
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Hawaii's Castle Doctrine sucks !
See above post and read the whole thing. ( the law I mean. )
:stopjack: of CCW permit initiative.
Ain't the best, but more than we had before when you could be held civially liable even if no criminal charges were ever brought against you for the death or injury of the bad guy.....
Back to the topic....For those that have already applied (and maybe I missed this somewhere else...) what's the deal with fingerprints? Does HPD do them when you complete the application? Or do you have to bring them in from somewhere?
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Ain't the best, but more than we had before when you could be held civially liable even if no criminal charges were ever brought against you for the death or injury of the bad guy.....
Roger That HiCarry !
Back to the topic....For those that have already applied (and maybe I missed this somewhere else...) what's the deal with fingerprints? Does HPD do them when you complete the application? Or do you have to bring them in from somewhere?
+1
What exactly do we need to take with us ?
Passport photos, etc.
And do we need our reason for request prepared ?
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The day I went, started to fill out the forms and then had to evacuate the building so I don't recall if had to do prints or not. Either way they will do them there if you don't have an approved print card already. As I recall the form was oriented toward to those applying for security guard or LEO positions so submitting a letter of explanation makes sense. As always have your ID ready. Another thing is have a copy of the handgun registration for the firearm you select to carry. That's about it. Thank you all for your efforts!
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The day I went, started to fill out the forms and then had to evacuate the building so I don't recall if had to do prints or not. Either way they will do them there if you don't have an approved print card already. As I recall the form was oriented toward to those applying for security guard or LEO positions so submitting a letter of explanation makes sense. As always have your ID ready. Another thing is have a copy of the handgun registration for the firearm you select to carry. That's about it. Thank you all for your efforts!
Is it going to matter if I do not have a hand gun?
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Is it going to matter if I do not have a hand gun?
In this state yes, the egg comes before the chicken (or was it the other way ;) ). They want to know exactly which firearm you intend to carry. Another sort of restriction but it is what it is.
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FWIW, in the early '70s, I did see the permits of CCW that was issued.
The ID cards took up about 2/3 of a shoe box. Yep, that's how they were stored.
According to C & C "rules" all Tests (including CCW) are supposed to be Public Record
and Available to the Public at the City Clerks Office.
Again, I did get to see the entire test. Should have gotten a complete set when I did.
HPD later pulled everything related to CCW.
Later, I did try to get a copy thru my friend at the Mayor's Office and my City Councilperson.
NOPE, HPD wasn't going to release anything because CCW is NOT issued so no NEED to see test and other info.
What is Needed is to change the law to SHALL ISSUE from MAY Issue.
We Need to convince a handful of legislators on our side to introduce same bills in Senate and House.
Watch Every LE organization in Hawaii show up and Testify Against Shall Issue.
We NEED to fill the hearing room with Pro 2a testimony. Flood the Fax and Email with Pro Shall Issue testimony.
Even if we don't get it the first time, having 100s of Pro testimony will be noticed.
You want to get their attention, get 200 Women out protesting for Shall Issue in the Capitol Rotunda.
I understand that's how Alaska got theirs.
Thanks for the history and suggestions Old Guy!
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update: At the moment seeking O'ahu residents for this. (The B.I. is covered and if successful "the other 2 issuing islands will have to follow suit").
(This is not to discourage other county residents to apply for an O'ahu license (or vice versa), in case of travel here. Our crime rate sure to be much higher than your home island so the need for protection is still there but getting off the subject slightly.)
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FWIW, in the early '70s, I did see the permits of CCW that was issued.
The ID cards took up about 2/3 of a shoe box. Yep, that's how they were stored.
According to C & C "rules" all Tests (including CCW) are supposed to be Public Record
and Available to the Public at the City Clerks Office.
Again, I did get to see the entire test. Should have gotten a complete set when I did.
HPD later pulled everything related to CCW.
Later, I did try to get a copy thru my friend at the Mayor's Office and my City Councilperson.
NOPE, HPD wasn't going to release anything because CCW is NOT issued so no NEED to see test and other info.
What is Needed is to change the law to SHALL ISSUE from MAY Issue.
We Need to convince a handful of legislators on our side to introduce same bills in Senate and House.
Watch Every LE organization in Hawaii show up and Testify Against Shall Issue.
We NEED to fill the hearing room with Pro 2a testimony. Flood the Fax and Email with Pro Shall Issue testimony.
Even if we don't get it the first time, having 100s of Pro testimony will be noticed.
You want to get their attention, get 200 Women out protesting for Shall Issue in the Capitol Rotunda.
I understand that's how Alaska got theirs.
Old Guy,
Why not start an sign up sheet specific to this purpose to get a list of people who could be mobilized at a moments notice when this thing comes up in the legislature?
The email sign up sheet should also be a pledge to show up and testify for this one specific purpose if this ever comes up.
If you'd like to do this, I can assist with setting up an electronic sign up sheet.
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can I apply to CCW my AR?
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Ain't the best, but more than we had before when you could be held civially liable even if no criminal charges were ever brought against you for the death or injury of the bad guy.....
Back to the topic....For those that have already applied (and maybe I missed this somewhere else...) what's the deal with fingerprints? Does HPD do them when you complete the application? Or do you have to bring them in from somewhere?
On Maui MPD takes your prints when you apply. Even for just a long gun license. Sure it would be the same for HPD too.
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I would like to see all hand gun owners apply for a CCW, as the police chief starts to reject thousands of applications out of hand and for no good reason, that could be the basis of a case, it would definitely make the news.
2aHawaii could make available a PDF version of each Islands CCW form and request that those downloading the form keep 2a apprised of their progress and results. The information on the numbers could be posted on 2a so that we can all see the progress or lack there of.
Since most people have given up on applying, because of the certanty of being denied, the issue isn't getting much attention, but that would change if they started getting thousands of applications and then rejecting 100% of them. Then they would have to explain how the very same pool that they get their police officers from is not to be trusted with a CCW.
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Would be great if this bill ever got any traction....many Hawaii gun owners would be carrying, so long as they have a valid CCW from another state.
On August 1, 2013, U.S. Reps. Rich Nugent (R-Fla.) and Jim Matheson (D- Utah), introduced H.R. 2959, The National Right to Carry Reciprocity Act. This NRA-backed legislation would allow any person with a valid concealed carry permit to carry a concealed firearm in any other state that issues concealed firearm permits or does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms. A state's laws governing where concealed firearms may be carried would still apply to all within its borders. Similar legislation to H.R. 2959 passed the U.S. House of Representatives in the 112th Congress by an overwhelming bipartisan vote of 272-154.
Doesn't hurt to contact our U.S. Representative's to voice our support and ask them to support H.R. 2959, albeit I already know they don't support it. Contact information can be found using the "Write Your Representatives" feature at www.NRAILA.org (http://www.NRAILA.org). Additional information can be found at www.NRAILA.org (http://www.NRAILA.org).
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I'm with hawaiirog. Make a template and I will apply and inform 2@ of the results. Anyone else in ???
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On Maui MPD takes your prints when you apply. Even for just a long gun license. Sure it would be the same for HPD too.
Assuming HPD in this case is Honolulu Police Department, then the answer is no. They will print you for the mandatory FBI background check, but they will not print you for a CCW application, or any voluntary reason. You are responsible for obtaining a filled fingerprint card, and it has to be the old-school ink version, not a contemporary scanned version.
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Wish it were easy to get a ccw here..hi is actually worse than ca in that aspect. They can obtain a ccw in a lot counties by the sheriff but the process is long.
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Hey folks, I had an idea. What if we have a random drawing and award the winner or winners a free firearm (I say a 500 dollar max each firearm). This drawing should be done from the folks that signed up for mobilization/ participation in a Concealed carry list we discused here. Hell, I might even buy (one lol) said firearm. I mean depending on the number of folks signing up chances of winning might be high! We could even have lesser prized of upgrades/ parts/ mags. I also had a though how about we start a new discussion and just have folks down for the cause list things like name maybe phone number, ect so in the event we need to meet to argue for or against legislation we can get in touch with folks better. Why not ask folks backing CCW to sign a petion. I can make the post if desired just let me know guys! :)p.s. Please leave any suggestions (my ideas arnt the best sometimes lol) thanks!