2aHawaii
General Topics => Off Topic => Topic started by: TENECN on May 25, 2013, 12:11:23 PM
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I understand (for the most part) why these guys went out of business. Hawaii seems like an extremely tough place to start and run a business. The political and regulatory environment must be the two big killers. But I still do not understand why no one has tried to revive the Hawaii Superferry. I've been blessed to travel all over the world and EVERY island nation or archipelago I have been to has established, cheap, reliable ferry service. Why is Hawaii any different? I know the EIS wasn't done properly (or at all) and the whale lovers were pretty upset about it, but what gives? Are there not whales in every other part of the world that are threatened by ships? Could a new EIS not be completed IOT get this thing going again? It's just disappointing to see the rest of the world doing it right when it comes to inter island transportation and Hawaii is "missing the boat." Pun intended. You're welcome.
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I was in the minority too in that I wanted to see the ferry run but a lot of the guys that were in the harbor here on Kauai blocking the ferry were mainland transplants from the north shore. There were a few local boys in there too but I think they were just bored :shaka:
I saw the one guy letting out air in some dude's tires I would have brakleened his sorry ass :wtf:
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I thought they were hired by the local shipping companies
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This is just a WAGS but I think the fact that the service was in operation for just over a year gave the owners a good idea of whether the business was viable even without having to deal with the problems and the costs of obtaining an EIS. The Superferry plug was pulled because it was losing money and was not projected to make a profit.
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i heard that the more established shipping operations were behind the resistance to the superferry
This is just a WAGS but I think the fact that the service was in operation for just over a year gave the owners a good idea of whether the business was viable even without having to deal with the problems and the costs of obtaining an EIS. The Superferry plug was pulled because it was losing money and was not projected to make a profit.
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This was just one messed up situation. An operation that every actual person was behind, but was hated by the airlines and shipping companies. They financed the "grass roots movements" that called for the EIS, which was total BS. An EIS for an inter-island ship????? This is the sort of thing Obama would be proud of, perverting a system with legitimate uses to stop another system that actually benefits people.
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^The airlines and the federal govt do the same thing. I just don't see why Hawaii is any different than any other group of islands in the world. And yes, BHO is proud I'm sure, to see its demise. I'll never understand it myself, and I'm sure HAL and others paid big bucks to put up some major opposition.
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I was in the minority too in that I wanted to see the ferry run but a lot of the guys that were in the harbor here on Kauai blocking the ferry were mainland transplants from the north shore. There were a few local boys in there too but I think they were just bored :shaka:
I saw the one guy letting out air in some dude's tires I would have brakleened his sorry ass :wtf:
I don't think many people realize the effects of brakleen. I keep a can of it in my trunk along with my sockets and stuff in case I need to clean something. :geekdanc:
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Superferry would have given us access to an actual racetrack...
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I don't think many people realize the effects of brakleen. I keep a can of it in my trunk along with my sockets and stuff in case I need to clean something. :geekdanc:
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I have never met anyone that disliked the ferry. Yet it seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog. I was actually booked for a trip back to visit my Mom on Maui when the operation was shut down.
I have no doubt the "old" shipping company had a lot to do with the "problem". I used to ship my cars on the "old" barges and it was a painful and slow process. My pet turtle moved twice as fast as the guy checking the cars in. I had to set aside half a day to get my car on board. I still feel pissed off when I think about it today. Everyone I talk to about this feels the same way.
:(
Anyway, I love brakleen. FYI- there are 2 types of Brakleen. Chlorinated and non-chlorinated.
Chlorinated is badass stuff. Kills just about everything, ants, roaches, weeds, grass...your skin...
Non-chlorinated is also badass stuff. I use it for cleaning my brass and ammo. DO NOT breath in the fumes too much. I understand that some components of that mixture can cause heart palpitations.
But I love it anyway.
:thumbsup:
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So....for about $1mm someone could buy a decently used, 150 person/50 car capacity catamaran ferry. Basically a smaller version of the super. For guys that have lived here awhile, with lessons learned from the super, how realistic would it be to attempt it again? I'm thinking much smaller scale (small ships = less environmental impact and considerably lower overhead). The smaller boat means less risk. I think the super was on the order of $200mm just for the ship. The wheels (or props) are beginning to turn in my entrepreneurial brain...
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This was just one messed up situation. An operation that every actual person was behind, but was hated by the airlines and shipping companies. They financed the "grass roots movements" that called for the EIS, which was total BS. An EIS for an inter-island ship????? This is the sort of thing Obama would be proud of, perverting a system with legitimate uses to stop another system that actually benefits people.
This was my thought exactly. It's a boat. It floats on the water. There are literally thousands of them in and around the Hawaiian Islands already; what was the big environmental impact concern with this?
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This was my thought exactly. It's a boat. It floats on the water. There are literally thousands of them in and around the Hawaiian Islands already; what was the big environmental impact concern with this?
100% concur with this. I get the chance to fly around the islands on a weekly basis and you are correct...there are thousands of boats out there every single day. Everything from the Matson cargo ships, to oil tankers, to barges. So you're telling me two more ferries are going to break the Hawaiian environment so much that they should be shut down? It's good to learn from your mistakes, but it's better to learn from others'. I am convinced that this could be successfully reattempted.
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I have never met anyone that disliked the ferry. Yet it seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog. I was actually booked for a trip back to visit my Mom on Maui when the operation was shut down.
I have no doubt the "old" shipping company had a lot to do with the "problem". I used to ship my cars on the "old" barges and it was a painful and slow process. My pet turtle moved twice as fast as the guy checking the cars in. I had to set aside half a day to get my car on board. I still feel pissed off when I think about it today. Everyone I talk to about this feels the same way.
:(
Anyway, I love brakleen. FYI- there are 2 types of Brakleen. Chlorinated and non-chlorinated.
Chlorinated is badass stuff. Kills just about everything, ants, roaches, weeds, grass...your skin...
Non-chlorinated is also badass stuff. I use it for cleaning my brass and ammo. DO NOT breath in the fumes too much. I understand that some components of that mixture can cause heart palpitations.
But I love it anyway.
:thumbsup:
Only thing I have found that Brakleen does not kill is a cane toad :o
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The SuperFerry would've been a great example of Change - sound familiar? Ironic when you consider the politics involved. The demise of the Superferry is a great example of the powers that want to keep the greater good oppressed for the sake of continued profit. I can only surmise that Young Bros. and other businesses that would've suffered when the SuperFerry took off had a role in its termination.
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FWIW, Superferry was not the first commercial inter-island high-speed ferry service to operate, and fail, here. Nor the second. If we're going to pitch in, buy a boat, and start shuffling passengers, we need to do our homework!
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Yes too bad it went under. It was still operating when I planned my move here and was integral to my business plans. I operate a classic car restoration company www.ranchomerced.com (http://www.ranchomerced.com) and needed the flexabillity of the ferry since I am located on the Big Island . Now Young bros or Pasha gets to haul my cars inter island and has created quite a headache for me. And yes from my observations the shippers and the airlines used the useful idiot environmentalists and the a few of the Hawaiian culture types (whom I have great respect for by the way) to kill it. All in the name of profits. Off topic a bit; but the Jones Act needs to be repealed too.
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Oh, man, I hope not!! If the Superferry came back, I'd have to find a job on the mainland! ;D
...but really, I wish the Superferry did come back. I'm not a fan of Mesa Air and it's Hawaii regional brand go! at all. I feel that go! would have the most to lose, and after their absolutely atrocious business tactics, I'd be glad to see them go down. People will still want to go back and forth between the islands quickly, and I think Hawaiian and some of the others would still be getting business from tourists, businessmen, and those who just don't wanna go via boat. If I wanted to visit another island via commercial means, I'd ship my vehicle via Superferry and still fly Hawaiian to the island I'd be touring. I'd rather be in a plane than sailing.
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For the guys that were here when it was operational: what was their fare structure like? How much did it cost to take a vehicle?
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I was able to take my entire family with our car to Maui and stay at the Westin Kaanapali (the hotel had a Superferry Special deal) when the Superferry was still operational. I'll have to look back at my records to see how the costs broke down if I still have them.
I agree about how ferries are so commonplace everywhere else but here. I've been on the really nice large ferries that go between Vancouver, B.C. and Vancouver Island, as well as a smaller Washington State ferry. I was really disappointed with how the Superferry's ordeal unfolded. The over-used movie quote "This is why we can't have nice things" applies here.
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For the guys that were here when it was operational: what was their fare structure like? How much did it cost to take a vehicle?
It was a tad pricey. IIRC, you were better off flying and renting a car if you would be there four or fewer days. But price isn't everything! The convenience of loading all your gear in the car and driving it onto that ferry counted for a lot, asmdid the very relaxed (by airline standards) security screening. And the comfort in the cabin, having leg room, being able to bring all the carry-on you wanted...there was just no comparison.
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I understand (for the most part) why these guys went out of business. Hawaii seems like an extremely tough place to start and run a business. The political and regulatory environment must be the two big killers. But I still do not understand why no one has tried to revive the Hawaii Superferry. I've been blessed to travel all over the world and EVERY island nation or archipelago I have been to has established, cheap, reliable ferry service. Why is Hawaii any different? I know the EIS wasn't done properly (or at all) and the whale lovers were pretty upset about it, but what gives? Are there not whales in every other part of the world that are threatened by ships? Could a new EIS not be completed IOT get this thing going again? It's just disappointing to see the rest of the world doing it right when it comes to inter island transportation and Hawaii is "missing the boat." Pun intended. You're welcome.
The EIS - it's not that it was not done properly, it was not done. The State has the decision to waive the EIS process for many many of its projects. It happens all the time. The issue is there are some local & mainland interests that did not line up with the SF. There were several issues brought up with regards to the EIS; traffic due to expanded vehicles, taking of natural resources (plants, rocks, etc.) in cars, whales, etc. Other than the (high) speed of the vessels the other issues were things that can/do happen anyway. EIS studies..............they are expensive, if you want one done, expect it to take years and potentially go into the millions with potential litigation.
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The SuperFerry would've been a great example of Change - sound familiar? Ironic when you consider the politics involved. The demise of the Superferry is a great example of the powers that want to keep the greater good oppressed for the sake of continued profit. I can only surmise that Young Bros. and other businesses that would've suffered when the SuperFerry took off had a role in its termination.
YB would have suffered, as would have Hawaiian/Aloha Air/other air cargo operations.
While I am not sure how the planes are required to service the outer islands, YB is required to bundle in trips that they lose money on..........such as Molokai. Not enough to make money, but they are mandated to do so which is why when Pasha was petitioning to cherry pick certain routes YB did not like that.
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Wow. I see why Lingle pushed for this thing to go through. The SF created jobs and opportunities and the liberal govt screwed up the whole thing. It's pretty clear the EIS was the (very heavy) straw that broke the camel's back. It is such a shame. Other countries and states don't require the huge amounts of red tape. The use of logic here would have gone a long way.
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This was my thought exactly. It's a boat. It floats on the water. There are literally thousands of them in and around the Hawaiian Islands already; what was the big environmental impact concern with this?
Again, it's not only the impact to the water/harbor, but also the receiving island. Can the docks handle the traffic, intersection handle the increased vehicles, the timing for the lights needs to be adjusted, is security an issue, etc. Lot's of things other than just the whales.
Also, besides the shippers you have to look at the rental car companies, they wouldn't want the SF too.
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This is the perfect example of why competition is good and monopolies are not. Competition almost always benefits the consumer. It leads to higher quality and lower prices. It's a damn shame that the state let this go the way it did. It's such a no brainier. Group of islands. Boat goes between them and carries people. People buy tickets and boat owner makes money. Owner hires more people as business grows. Pretty basic really.
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I agree gizer, no eis was done. There was a lot of talk about needing it and not needing it too though.
Anyways, the point is, if you gonna do something like that, make sure you dot your 'I's" and cross your "T's", cause a lot of people will be unhappy, especially the already established monopolies.
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This is the perfect example of why competition is good and monopolies are not. Competition almost always benefits the consumer. It leads to higher quality and lower prices. It's a damn shame that the state let this go the way it did. It's such a no brainier. Group of islands. Boat goes between them and carries people. People buy tickets and boat owner makes money. Owner hires more people as business grows. Pretty basic really.
Hawaii is in a bit of a unique situation.
With regards to air travel it was known for a long time that a 2 carrier system was about all that Hawaii could handle. With Go! taking inside information of a potential merger to put Aloha out of business they learned the hard way that the people here for all their stupidity sometimes get things right. Go! instead of rivaling Hawaiian for supremacy of Hawaii's skies is now sucking wind. They are smaller than Aloha ever was and Hawaiian keeps beating them up and taking their lunch money.
With regards to interisland cargo transport, it's really a single company system. I loved SF, but realistically the rates for YB would have been increased and I think SF would have been forced to adjust their schedule to visit the unprofitable areas of Lanai & Molokai. The speed was great, but it would have come at a price. Add in the fact that Pasha want in to certain lucrative interisland routes and I think we potentially could have seen the same thing happen with interisland sea cargo that happened with air travel.
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I agree gizer, no eis was done. There was a lot of talk about needing it and not needing it too though.
Anyways, the point is, if you gonna do something like that, make sure you dot your 'I's" and cross your "T's", cause a lot of people will be unhappy, especially the already established monopolies.
I do agree about getting things in order bass, but again the EIS process is waived a lot in Hawaii. I've done a lot of construction projects where it's been waived and no one has complained.
The single biggest thing about the SF was the political nature of the whole thing.
What I would really love is if YB could possibly pony up some $$$ to run it. They'll still need to deal with the rental car companies and heat from Hawaiian and the other air carriers, but they'd be in a better position to do so. As YB already sucks it up and does the unprofitable harbors, this might be a way to run the SF instead of a barge as a lot of time those locations may not necessitate the use of a barge.
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This is the perfect example of why competition is good and monopolies are not. Competition almost always benefits the consumer. It leads to higher quality and lower prices. It's a damn shame that the state let this go the way it did. It's such a no brainier. Group of islands. Boat goes between them and carries people. People buy tickets and boat owner makes money. Owner hires more people as business grows. Pretty basic really.
Anyone remember Interisland airfare when Aloha was in business? I don't ever remember paying more than $200 to go to Honolulu (from Hilo) while Aloha was flying. Now that they are gone, $236.00 round trip? Those were the days!
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My point exactly. Monopolies kill growth and jobs. Period. I'm thinking it's time for a change.
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Anyone remember Interisland airfare when Aloha was in business? I don't ever remember paying more than $200 to go to Honolulu (from Hilo) while Aloha was flying. Now that they are gone, $236.00 round trip? Those were the days!
Bro what airlines you flying on? I just flew to Kona on Friday, the round trip wasn't even $200.
BTW I remember the days of $35 coupons. You walk up to the security line, write in your flight, and you're off.
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Sure there are good deal fares here and there but by and large you're paying some good coin to go anywhere on any airline in Hawaii. Not that I can blame them for high prices. The profit margins for airlines is razor thin.
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"SUPERFERRY" :thumbsup:
Car Cruises, Race Track, Hunting, Visit Ohana, Employment, Look for different place to live with less people......... ;)
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Bro what airlines you flying on? I just flew to Kona on Friday, the round trip wasn't even $200.
BTW I remember the days of $35 coupons. You walk up to the security line, write in your flight, and you're off.
There's only one airline bro. I fly for work so I can't be picky and choose the cheapest flight. I gotta go when I gotta go. During the week and no matter how you slice it, comes up at least 2 bills. Back when Aloha was in business, I remember $89.00 round trip! Didn't matter which airline because there was competition.
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BTW I remember the days of $35 coupons. You walk up to the security line, write in your flight, and you're off.
go! had some pretty cutthroat business going down. Hawaiian was barely making money, but go! was in fact losing money. The CRJ-200's that go! flies have a poor CASM (Cost per Available Seat Mile). go! needed to make >$40 a ticket in order to break even. They were using their parent Mesa to fund them while they pushed someone else out. Hawaiian and Aloha had planes that operated with a better CASM, but Aloha was still in a pretty bad place.
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There's only one airline bro. I fly for work so I can't be picky and choose the cheapest flight. I gotta go when I gotta go. During the week and no matter how you slice it, comes up at least 2 bills. Back when Aloha was in business, I remember $89.00 round trip! Didn't matter which airline because there was competition.
BUD GZ made a bad. Price was definitely over $200. :wacko:
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BUD GZ made a bad. Price was definitely over $200. :wacko:
:shaka: No sweat. Lucky for me, company pays for the airfare, but still.......The old days of competition made it reasonable at least. And, if you remember, Aloha did not charge for flight changes. I used to book the last flight (because it was cheapest) and then show up and get an earlier flight no charge, no fare difference! That was sweet! I missed out on the coupons but I bet that was the way to go too!
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:shaka: No sweat. Lucky for me, company pays for the airfare, but still.......The old days of competition made it reasonable at least. And, if you remember, Aloha did not charge for flight changes. I used to book the last flight (because it was cheapest) and then show up and get an earlier flight no charge, no fare difference! That was sweet! I missed out on the coupons but I bet that was the way to go too!
Shoot man, we used to go fishing and come back with a cooler with 100+ lbs of fish. The guys would ask us what we caught instead of for a CC like now.
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Shoot man, we used to go fishing and come back with a cooler with 100+ lbs of fish. The guys would ask us what we caught instead of for a CC like now.
Yep. Used to see tons of coolers in the luggage claim. Now, very rare to see that. Kind of a bummer all the way around.
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For the guys that were here when it was operational: what was their fare structure like? How much did it cost to take a vehicle?
Ok I found them. For one way to or from Kahului, it was $59 per adult, $49 per child (mine was two at the time), $49 per senior, and $75 for acar under 8-ft. tall and 17-ft. long.
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Ok I found them. For one way to or from Kahului, it was $59 per adult, $49 per child (mine was two at the time), $49 per senior, and $75 for acar under 8-ft. tall and 17-ft. long.
Never got a chance to use it... it was killed before I got a chance.
The per head price alone was covered by not needing to rent a damn car.
Just looked into going off island for a week end. Just the wife and I for our 5 year anniversary.
200 dollars a head for plane tickets (400) from maui to kauai
120 dollars for a rental car (60 dollars a day for two days)
120 dollars for a decent place to stay for the night.
So for a simple weekend overnight away in my home state, looking at 640... not including food, beverages and entertainment.
Superferry would have saved me $$$
we ended up driving to Napili, renting a condo for the night.
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Found these old pics to look back at what was and could've been.
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I would assume they were much like the ones for the ferries in Washington, only a little stricter due to Hawaii state laws.
Safety and Security
WSF prohibits the following items on the terminal facilities and WSF vessels:
Hazardous Materials (Title 49 CFR Parts 170-180)
Explosives or Incendiary Devices (Title 33 CFR, Part 6)
Chemical, Biological or Radiological Agents or Devices (Title 33 CFR, Part 6)
Unlawful or Illegally Possessed Firearms (9.41 RCW)
Illegal Fireworks (70.77 RCW)
Acetylene Tanks
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Found these old pics to look back at what was and could've been.
Good pics. Just took it once from Oahu to Maui.
Very tightly run outfit, careful inspection of the cars, nice tight parking on the boat. Very smooth, nice to drive around Maui in our own car.
Given the heavy role groups on Maui played in killing the SurperFerry, we have sworn never to visit or spend a dime there again. We also advise our mainland friends to visit other islands.
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I don't know what the big deal was. I have a few friends that were protesting the use of the SF. I guess they had large stocks invested in YB, HA and Aloha Air Cargo. I never got to use it. Took it for granted, thought it would always be in service.
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Good pics. Just took it once from Oahu to Maui.
Very tightly run outfit, careful inspection of the cars, nice tight parking on the boat. Very smooth, nice to drive around Maui in our own car.
Given the heavy role groups on Maui played in killing the SurperFerry, we have sworn never to visit or spend a dime there again. We also advise our mainland friends to visit other islands.
I believe it was mainly Kauai that was giving all the problems. They were the one with the protesters and surfers in the water. What's funny is they are currently trying to get the whales off the endangered list.
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As I recall, the Maui chapter of the Sierra Club was a very major player in the effort to kill the SF with all the EIS lawsuits and such. There were other very visible Maui groups as well. Young Brothers behind the scenes, of course, follow the money.
The Kauai stoners on their surfboards in the harbor were comic relief. IIRC, the SF never did dock in Kauai, all the service was to Maui, and they were the focal point of opposition.