2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bunker on June 04, 2013, 07:12:50 PM
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http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/police-use-of-force-in-question-after-scuffle-leaves-man-in-critical-condition/ (http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/police-use-of-force-in-question-after-scuffle-leaves-man-in-critical-condition/)
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Saw it on the news. Crazy
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So sad. But he should have just stopped and given up.
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the media tries to paint this guy like an angel, but he was found with drugs and stole a car. I think there is more to this story. The sympathy card is the new race card in this age.
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the media tries to paint this guy like an angel, but he was found with drugs and stole a car. I think there is more to this story. The sympathy card is the new race card in this age.
+1
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the media tries to paint this guy like an angel, but he was found with drugs and stole a car. I think there is more to this story. The sympathy card is the new race card in this age.
true, but it doesnt mean that the officers were acting in good judgement either.
we dont really know either side of the story at this point.
another point. isnt this why they have tasers and stuff?
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Meh, thieves get no sympathy from me.
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Turn the tables. Why didn't the she tell him not to steal cars and take drugs? Why didn't he just raise his hands up and say I surrender? Things would be much simpler.
Just on the information presented, I'd have to go with the police. They pass background checks, passed the police academy and recerts, constantly under review. What credentials does the bad guy have?
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credentials?
same as all the perps in these situations
"he was such a nice boy, i couldn't imagine him doing anything like this"
Turn the tables. Why didn't the she tell him not to steal cars and take drugs? Why didn't he just raise his hands up and say I surrender? Things would be much simpler.
Just on the information presented, I'd have to go with the police. They pass background checks, passed the police academy and recerts, constantly under review. What credentials does the bad guy have?
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An officers judgement, training, crendentials....blah, blah, blah. Questioning any of that is just B.S.
Bottom line: INNOCENT people don't run or resist when they see the police.
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Cops are all knowing and all powerful.
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Damn.....Sh*t meet fan.
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What happen to innocent till proven guilty?
I feel this state is guilty till proven guilty.
I was once in that position. Accused of something i didnt do or involved with. Planted evidence.
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What happen to innocent till proven guilty?
I feel this state is guilty till proven guilty.
I was once in that position. Accused of something i didnt do or involved with. Planted evidence.
He is innocent. He was wanted on a charge of theft, he was to be brought in to face those charges but he RAN and was found to be in possession of drugs. There's levels of force but there is also no guarantee that certain methods will ensure compliance by the suspect. He may have resisted he may have had a medical condition. There's a lot going on in the mind of an officer - his/her own safety, the safety of the suspect and others. Sure someone is innocent; whether they have a knife in their hand or not. The officer has to bring that suspect in to face those charges, given those dangerous conditions - not an easy task. HPD has a volunteer officer program or even a ride-along to see what they have to go through.
Just read that he was taken off life support, sad but we have yet to hear both sides. On Hawaii News Now they have pictures showing the now deceased and his family.
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What happen to innocent till proven guilty?
I feel this state is guilty till proven guilty.
I was once in that position. Accused of something i didnt do or involved with. Planted evidence.
If hawaii is guilty till proven guilty, then why do we have so many felons with priors running free to do as they please. If anything this state is the most lenient on criminals.
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What happen to innocent till proven guilty?
Who said anything about the guy being guilty? Every day, across the country, law enforcement have tens of thousands of encounters with people. How many run and why? Again....innocent people (those who've done nothing wrong) don't run/resist.
I feel this state is guilty till proven guilty.
I was once in that position. Accused of something i didnt do or involved with. Planted evidence.
That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've seen in awhile. Guilty until proven guilty, seriously? If that were the case, people would go straight to prison to serve a sentence until they can prove their innocence at trial. But the last time I checked, people still get their day in court and the state still bears the burden of proof.
But that's how feel...Just a guess, but does it have something to do with a "fight the power" and "f*ck the po-po" mentality that you're known for? Because HPD is rather professional compared to other departments. There are no LAPD style beat downs or NYPD broomstick games. Try living in a place where the people aren't "down with brown" and maybe your opinion would be different.
....And I'll just have to call B.S. on the whole planted evidence thing. I'd believe it if you said whatever it was wasn't yours or that you didn't know it was there, but implying the police planted it?
(http://stickerheads.com/images/BULLSHITMETER34343.jpg)
He is innocent. He was wanted on a charge of theft, he was to be brought in to face those charges but he RAN and was found to be in possession of drugs. There's levels of force but there is also no guarantee that certain methods will ensure compliance by the suspect. He may have resisted he may have had a medical condition. There's a lot going on in the mind of an officer - his/her own safety, the safety of the suspect and others. Sure someone is innocent; whether they have a knife in their hand or not. The officer has to bring that suspect in to face those charges, given those dangerous conditions - not an easy task. HPD has a volunteer officer program or even a ride-along to see what they have to go through.
Just read that he was taken off life support, sad but we have yet to hear both sides. On Hawaii News Now they have pictures showing the now deceased and his family.
A rational and well thought out response. But you just know even if everyone participated in the ride along program, there'd always be some who'd second guess every decision an officer makes.
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I'll say it again
we dont really know either side of the story at this point.
and yet people are still picking sides here.
hell, both parties could be wrong.
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No one respects law enforcement anymore, PERIOD.
If an officer tells you to stop - you stop.
If an officer tells you to stop - and you RUN - get ready to get chased down, beat down, handcuffed and ignored even if you're lying in your own pool of blood.
You don't respect the officer and his authority, the officer is going to ignore you, PERIOD.
This isn't even about guilty or not guilty.
"Kids" nowdays...parents no teach their kids about respecting the law.
This is why get too much stupid sh*t.
Just the other day, officer gets "bumped" - guy gets thrown in jail.
This is just no respect.
Is it too much to respect the officer and the law?
Why you gotta dis the cop?
Now who looks stupid and in more trouble?
If this idiot just respected the officer and the law, this would be a non-issue and NOT in the news.
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true, but it doesnt mean that the officers were acting in good judgement either.
we dont really know either side of the story at this point.
another point. isnt this why they have tasers and stuff?
Dude, Maui is the place to be to get tasered in the State of Hawaii..............the other islands, not so much.
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flight or fight..........neither worked
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the media tries to paint this guy like an angel, but he was found with drugs and stole a car. I think there is more to this story. The sympathy card is the new race card in this age.
If he is Stephen J Dinnan, then he's got an amazing amount of traffic infractions. The guy got really smart somehow and is able to get out of a ton of citations for no insurance, no drivers license, safety, etc. 39 cases on eKokua and that's not counting what might he might have been cited for before the online access.
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Overall, the situation is very unfortunate but the media didn't give much to both sides of the story just trumping up sympathy for the suspect.
http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/ (http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/)
The comments reflect the kind of reactions the media solicits and probably the reason why our courts in Hawaii are very sympathetic to convicted felons.
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Overall, the situation is very unfortunate but the media didn't give much to both sides of the story just trumping up sympathy for the suspect.
http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/ (http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/)
The comments reflect the kind of reactions the media solicits and probably the reason why our courts in Hawaii are very sympathetic to convicted felons.
Ren I wouldn't specifically say it is our courts being sympathetic but a jury of our peers. Either way the officer/officers will be investigated with the totality of circumstances of what a reasonable officer would have done at the time with their experiences, education, and or training and hopefully will either be cleared or tried.
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true, but it doesnt mean that the officers were acting in good judgement either.
we dont really know either side of the story at this point.
another point. isnt this why they have tasers and stuff?
Not all officers are equipped, or more importantly certified to use Tasers.
Personally, I would rely on my sidearm than a Taser if I had to defend my life. Even if the suspect is fleeing, they could always pull a weapon out to slow you down.
Its too bad it ended with the his passing :'(
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While it is sad that this man lost his life, and we dont know the whole story. I would speculate running from police having a illegal drugs in your pocket are both negative indicators. There is definitely more to the story but I'm going to air on the side of the police.
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Overall, the situation is very unfortunate but the media didn't give much to both sides of the story just trumping up sympathy for the suspect.
http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/ (http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/04/kaneohe-man-taken-off-life-support-after-scuffle-with-honolulu-police/)
The comments reflect the kind of reactions the media solicits and probably the reason why our courts in Hawaii are very sympathetic to convicted felons.
http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/05/medical-examiner-no-assaultive-type-injuries-on-man-involved-in-police-scuffle/ (http://www.khon2.com/2013/06/05/medical-examiner-no-assaultive-type-injuries-on-man-involved-in-police-scuffle/)
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Meh, thieves get no sympathy from me.
+1
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and yet people are still picking sides here.
hell, both parties could be wrong.
It's about acceptable behavior and bad choices, not right/wrong or picking sides.
No one respects law enforcement anymore, PERIOD.
If an officer tells you to stop - you stop.
If an officer tells you to stop - and you RUN - get ready to get chased down, beat down, handcuffed and ignored even if you're lying in your own pool of blood.
You don't respect the officer and his authority, the officer is going to ignore you, PERIOD.
This isn't even about guilty or not guilty.
"Kids" nowdays...parents no teach their kids about respecting the law.
This is why get too much stupid sh*t.
Just the other day, officer gets "bumped" - guy gets thrown in jail.
This is just no respect.
Is it too much to respect the officer and the law?
Why you gotta dis the cop?
Now who looks stupid and in more trouble?
If this idiot just respected the officer and the law, this would be a non-issue and NOT in the news.
I agree that today there is a lack of respect for police (and authority in general), but not so much with the expected "beat down" and being "ignored". People who flee and resist should be subdued and apprehended. But once cuffed and in custody, the majority of officers take their responsibilty for a suspects well being pretty seriously.
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Again, we should wait to see what the facts are, not what the media or police spin it to be. Unfortunately there are more than enough instances of bad behavior by alleged "bad guys" and police.
There are many, many cases where innocent people ran from police. Believe it or not, there are some folks out there who have witnessed police abuse and may indeed have a real perceived fear of police mistreating them. And while running isn't ever a good idea, it also shouldn't be a death sentence either.
There are also lots of stories of police planting drugs on innocent people. Don't you recall the story of the police raiding the wrong home and ending up shooting the elderly woman who thought criminals were breaking into her home? They planted drugs in her home to make her look bad and bolster their story that the shooting was justified. Heck, just go onto You Tube and you can find tons of these stories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting)
BAD POLICE: Cops Caught Planting Drugs To Make Quotas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RZ0WIxQAgo#)
Cops Plant Drugs On Suspect video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhHd6M2Sjg#)
The bottom line is that we just don't know. There are good cops and bad cops, just like there are good "citizens" and crooks....And guessing, and taking sides based on pure speculation is always problematic....
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interesting points of view gentlemen. i agree with some " this state is guilty until proven guilty" i can see that ive felt that before, but i also have seen the guilty proven innocent when guilty as hell... this time ill side with the popos after all he was fleeing a stolen vehicle and im thinking he mightve resisted a bit if he was willing to run.
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wow, that was quick. Off life support then off to an attorney
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22516290/excessive-force (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/22516290/excessive-force)
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Who said anything about the guy being guilty? Every day, across the country, law enforcement have tens of thousands of encounters with people. How many run and why? Again....innocent people (those who've done nothing wrong) don't run/resist.
That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've seen in awhile. Guilty until proven guilty, seriously? If that were the case, people would go straight to prison to serve a sentence until they can prove their innocence at trial. But the last time I checked, people still get their day in court and the state still bears the burden of proof.
But that's how feel...Just a guess, but does it have something to do with a "fight the power" and "f*ck the po-po" mentality that you're known for? Because HPD is rather professional compared to other departments. There are no LAPD style beat downs or NYPD broomstick games. Try living in a place where the people aren't "down with brown" and maybe your opinion would be different.
Um, I'm not sure if you see how the courts work here, but many times it is guilty until proven guilty lol. People are also proven guilty until innocent in the media (George Zimmerman, Christopher Deedy cases come to mind).
I just had an individual wrongly jailed, whom I was trying to bail out. He filed an appeal on a misdemeanor charge, but they still incarcerated him. He was locked up for about seven days out of a 10 day sentence that he likely shouldn't have had to serve anyways. Do I think they "think you are innocent" no. Do I think they have some rules to follow or they have to pay a lot of money out, yes.
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"The state is guilty until proven guilty."
I read that as a mere mis-typing of "The state is innocent until proven guilty," which is what I think about it.
For all we know, this 26-year veteran of the force brought him down with proper procedures for a resistant suspected felon and the suspect cracked his head on the curb or something.
And yes, even innocent people flee for whatever reasons... they're on probation and have high motivation not to get involved... they have 1.0001 oz of pot on them which has nothing to do with the reason for the stop... they're just plain scared....etc, etc. But the Officer can't know that in advance.
I'm not exactly "for" the police --abuses occur --but I'd like to wait until the investigation phase is complete before I swallow the press's version of it.
Until then, until we can poke holes in the investigation itself, "The state is also innocent until proven guilty."
Terry, 230RN
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I don't understand why people in Hawaii think they can run from the law. Even if you get away from a cop, your still stuck in the middle of nowhere and can't get off one of the biggest prisons in the world! You are surrounded by 2500miles of water in every direction; you gotta be the biggest moron in the world to run from the cops here!
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I also think the public and media are too quick to blame the police alot of times. There may be some bad cops out there, but just guessing, I'd say 95-99% of them are truly good. It's just that the bad ones get more than their share of attention.
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No sympathy here for that guy. He didn't come into contact with the police that day because he was just being a good, upstanding citizen. He came into contact with the police because he was a meth using thief who stole a car. This guy brought this incident to a whole new level the moment he ran from and then decided to fight with the police. If you have never been in position where you had to engage a criminal and take them down, you really don't know what level you are going to be at until you are under way and in the scuffle......add to this crystal methamphetamine and it intensifies it even more so.
I feel sorry for the family and their loss, but it was the bad acts of this individual that caused all of this. I also feel sorry for the city's pockets, because more than likely they will roll over and settle the upcoming civil suit that results. My opinion on this is simply.....If you are committing a bad act, then neither you or your family should benefit from those bad acts.......period! :thumbsup:
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nm
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Here is the Advertiser piece today. "There were no assault injuries on a man whose family is claiming Honolulu police used excessive force in detaining him, the medical examiner’s office said Wednesday."
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/hawaiinews/20130606_Detained_man_taken_off_life_support.html?id=210373741 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/hawaiinews/20130606_Detained_man_taken_off_life_support.html?id=210373741)
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I don't understand why people in Hawaii think they can run from the law. Even if you get away from a cop, your still stuck in the middle of nowhere and can't get off one of the biggest prisons in the world! You are surrounded by 2500miles of water in every direction; you gotta be the biggest moron in the word to run from the cops here!
My man.............we have a lot of morons in Hawaii.
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bad link
yesterday's article said that the medical examiner saw no "assaultive-type" injuries
i was not aware that assaultive was a word
Here is the Advertiser piece today. "There were no assault injuries on a man whose family is claiming Honolulu police used excessive force in detaining him, the medical examiner’s office said Wednesday."
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/hawaiinews/20130606_Detained_man_taken_off_life_support.html?id=210373741 (http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/hawaiinews/20130606_Detained_man_taken_off_life_support.html?id=210373741)
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This is totally messed up.
Got some info from someone who was at the scene.
Wrong place wrong time. Bummers.
He came out of the house to see what was going on.
He was on the side of the stolen car when the police showed up.
The police jumped him and threw him on the ground in a choke hold.
Witness said he was cooperating but yelling what did I do?
His face was turning red from the choke hold, so he started gasping for air.
The neighbors were even yelling that's not the guy. Was mass confusion.
OOPSIE!
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This is totally messed up.
Got some info from someone who was at the scene.
Wrong place wrong time. Bummers.
He came out of the house to see what was going on.
He was on the side of the stolen car when the police showed up.
The police jumped him and threw him on the ground in a choke hold.
Witness said he was cooperating but yelling what did I do?
His face was turning red from the choke hold, so he started gasping for air.
The neighbors were even yelling that's not the guy. Was mass confusion.
OOPSIE!
Yet theres other witnesses saying they saw him jump a fence, put down a kid, then jump another fence and start running, while police were yelling at him to stop.
http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/family-of-stephen-dinnan-believe-police-used-excessive-force/-/8905354/20444792/-/11n9nbs/-/index.html (http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/family-of-stephen-dinnan-believe-police-used-excessive-force/-/8905354/20444792/-/11n9nbs/-/index.html)
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Dinnan became unresponsive shortly after he was brought under control, police said.
One thing that does bother me about that "under control" statements is whether they hogtied him... a known dangerous restraint method. Meaning, people die from it.
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bad link
yesterday's article said that the medical examiner saw no "assaultive-type" injuries
i was not aware that assaultive was a word
I wonder if "aussaultive-type" as proof of death, cause pics show he got messed up big time.
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The bottom line is that we just don't know. There are good cops and bad cops, just like there are good "citizens" and crooks....And guessing, and taking sides based on pure speculation is always problematic....
Yes, there are good and bad people on both sides of the law. But regardless of what anyone pulls up on YouTube (documenting mainland PD)...I stand by my previous statement:
...HPD is rather professional compared to other departments. There are no LAPD style beat downs or NYPD broomstick games.
I'm not saying they're perfect, but the number of substantiated claims against HPD officers for "on-duty" misconduct is almost nonexistent.
Um, I'm not sure if you see how the courts work here, but many times it is guilty until proven guilty lol. People are also proven guilty until innocent in the media (George Zimmerman, Christopher Deedy cases come to mind).
I've always been open about my run-ins with the law and going with the process so I can assure you that I'm well aware of how the system works. I speak strictly from personal experience and I can say for a fact that criminal procedures, from arrest to final verdict, works a certain way and that process is basically the same for everyone regardless of true guilt or innocence. The whole gripe about "guilty until proven innocent" or "guilty until proven guilty" is just a load of bull perpetuated by people who feel slighted a system that they are ignorant of.
As for Zimmerman and Deedy? I believe they made bad choices, but they'll get their day in court. That's the same as for you, me or anyone else here. Media/public opinions amount to jack squat in court where it matters becuse the prosecution has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Example: Casey Anthony. The public and media had her branded as a baby killer, but the prosecution failed to prove their case.
I just had an individual wrongly jailed, whom I was trying to bail out. He filed an appeal on a misdemeanor charge, but they still incarcerated him. He was locked up for about seven days out of a 10 day sentence that he likely shouldn't have had to serve anyways. Do I think they "think you are innocent" no. Do I think they have some rules to follow or they have to pay a lot of money out, yes.
If the person you were trying to bail out was filing an appeal, that means he went to trial and found guilty. Or is that a mistake and he was doing something else? Because it doesn't make sense, one does not file an appeal during an arraignment/plea hearing...they only hear the charges and enter a plea. And people generally post bail/bond shortly after arrest/booking. The amount is based on a set schedule for the offense/prior history. Posting bail it's not "paying" to get out, just a deposit for the promise to appear in court. You get it back either when you show up for court (if the judge ROR's you) or at the end of trial. The only time is "costs" would be when one bonds out, then they pay 10-20% of whatever the set bail might be. But that's to the bondsman not the court. It's not semantics...No one pays to get out of jail.
All that aside though...NONE of the process you're describing has anything to do with a perceived guilt or innocence, it's the same for everyone.
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there's even more to the story than that
really a confusing incident
truth may or may not come out
This is totally messed up.
Got some info from someone who was at the scene.
Wrong place wrong time. Bummers.
He came out of the house to see what was going on.
He was on the side of the stolen car when the police showed up.
The police jumped him and threw him on the ground in a choke hold.
Witness said he was cooperating but yelling what did I do?
His face was turning red from the choke hold, so he started gasping for air.
The neighbors were even yelling that's not the guy. Was mass confusion.
OOPSIE!
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Yet theres other witnesses saying they saw him jump a fence, put down a kid, then jump another fence and start running, while police were yelling at him to stop.
http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/family-of-stephen-dinnan-believe-police-used-excessive-force/-/8905354/20444792/-/11n9nbs/-/index.html (http://www.kitv.com/news/hawaii/family-of-stephen-dinnan-believe-police-used-excessive-force/-/8905354/20444792/-/11n9nbs/-/index.html)
The guy who witnessed it said the media is confusing everyone! figures
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We'll probably never know
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Is it just me or does anyone notice that after something major happens here or after something is sensationalized
On the news, there never seem to be any follow up or updated status on the even in particular? Its like allover the news
And then the story just disapears leaving the public wondering what the outcome was or is. The depth of reporting seems to
Me is very shallow, meaning theres always more to the story but it never seems I on my way sorry i be there soonto be looked into by the media imho
Its like there off to the next thing that will bring in viewership and leaving everyone to speculate instead of getting more info so everyone can have a better understanding
As to how these things can happen. There are many things i dont agree with or approve but i am openminded enough and have enough empathy to see how some of these things can and do happen. Anyhow glad we live in a place where these things can be discussed and posted. Thanks to all past and present that keep it that way. Aloha