2aHawaii
General Topics => Legal and Activism => Topic started by: Funtimes on December 08, 2010, 05:12:55 PM
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Hawaii Concealed Carry -- Permit Initiative
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.†This quote of the Second Amendment, until recent times, had little meaning to many states within the United States. That is until a legal case, challenging the handgun ban in the District of Columbia, was brought to the Supreme Court of the United States.
In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Heller v. District of Columbia that the possession of a firearm, for the purpose of self-defense, was an individual right found within the Second Amendment to the U.S. constitution. Following Heller, on June 28th, 2010, the Supreme Court decided on another case which challenged the Chicago gun ban; this ban was also ruled unconstitutional, and the decision affirmed that the Second Amendment applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. The right to keep and bear arms was also determined to be a fundamental constitutional right, putting it on par with the freedom of speech and religion. Therefore, citizens of our state should be authorized to exercise this right, safely and responsibly in all non-sensitive places.
The City and County of Honolulu have consistently restricted and continue to burden the right to keep and bear arms, especially in non-sensitive public places. For a timeline exceeding fifteen years, no citizen has been allowed to carry a firearm to defend themselves or their family. Many citizens have fallen victim to this violation of their constitutional rights, some paying the ultimate price.
Additionally, many believe that Hawaii businesses are afforded more protection than most citizens. By carrying a loaded and openly displayed firearm, many banks and other business are authorized to protect their assets out in public. These assets are commonly serialized and documented ensuring that they can be replaced and tracked. Most of the time these assets are also insured by either government agencies or private companies -- protecting the company from any real loss; yet they are still authorized to carry weapons, because it deters criminals. Your children and family, however, are not serialized; your children and family are not insured by the government, nor can your child, family member, or friend be replaced.
Lastly, in an effort to change these broken laws, a local group, Hawaii Concealed Carry, was formed in 2010 to promote the safe and responsible bearing of firearms, for the purpose of self-defense. They are based on Oahu, and are working to assist all Hawaiian islands in the restoration and exercise of their fundamental right to keep and bear arms. Hawaii residents are encouraged to exercise their fundamental right by applying to their local City and County Police departments for a permit to carry a firearm, openly or concealed, for the purpose of protecting yourself and your family
Information on applying for your Hawaii concealed or open carry permit can be found at www.hawaiiccw.com (http://www.hawaiiccw.com).
Aloha,
Christopher Baker
www.hawaiiccw.com (http://www.hawaiiccw.com)
Downloads available here: http://hawaiiccw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/CCW-Request-Guide.pdf (http://hawaiiccw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/CCW-Request-Guide.pdf)
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Please keep this thread on topic. Related to the actual permit initiative. (Questions, concerns, assistance applying etc). I don't enjoy seeing arguments among supporters and those whose mind is not clouded with the anti-gun propaganda. We don't need that; it's just not beneficial. I ask we allow people to support how they can, where they can. I will say however, if you are doing nothing (like zero..), it's a injustice to every citizen in this state and to those who dedicate their time to various causes across the nation.
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My denial letter came in the mail yesterday, 1 day short of the 4 week mark. Here are the 2 key points:
You have not sufficiently demonstrated that there is an urgent threat to life or property that the police cannot address.
If you or any of those around you are placed in danger of bodily injury by word or deed, the police department should be contacted immediately so that proper action may be initiated.
It's good to know that the police in Hawaii have a teleport machine that allows them to respond IMMEDIATELY to any threat against me or mine, ANYWHERE. ::)
- Alex
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I am curious... can one use fear of theft as "good cause"? Someone I am talking with for house sitting/renovation work says that theft is a big problem in Puna.
So would fear of my firearm ending up stolen and in the hands of criminals be something that may let the police grant you a CCW?
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I am curious... can one use fear of theft as "good cause"? Someone I am talking with for house sitting/renovation work says that theft is a big problem in Puna.
So would fear of my firearm ending up stolen and in the hands of criminals be something that may let the police grant you a CCW?
Theft of property is not viable justification for deadly-force, now, if someone was committing burglary against you -- that would probably be a different story.
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Sorry, double post...
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My denial letter came in the mail yesterday, 1 day short of the 4 week mark. Here are the 2 key points:
You have not sufficiently demonstrated that there is an urgent threat to life or property that the police cannot address.
If you or any of those around you are placed in danger of bodily injury by word or deed, the police department should be contacted immediately so that proper action may be initiated.
It's good to know that the police in Hawaii have a teleport machine that allows them to respond IMMEDIATELY to any threat against me or mine, ANYWHERE. ::)
- Alex
WOWWWW !!! Hey can you get a bunch of the hand held push button transponders they must be issuing to us lowly citizens ?? That will be awesome to have the police appear instantly between you and the scumbag as he is pointing the gun at you or your family and about to pull the trigger !! :wacko: It really escapes me as to how we can be entrusted to carry a machine gun and a pistol, receive more training than HPD ever thought of, then sent off to face people who want to kill you every day of your life, but we can't be trusted with a concealed pistol as a means of self defense here at home... ???
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Funtimes.. Please tell me what I can do to help out.. Im on the Big Island, and I will also be applying for a CCW when I get home from this tour.. I know it will be denied, but let me know if there is anything else I can do to help the cause... Sorry for the double post !!
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My denial letter came in the mail yesterday, 1 day short of the 4 week mark. Here are the 2 key points:
You have not sufficiently demonstrated that there is an urgent threat to life or property that the police cannot address.
If you or any of those around you are placed in danger of bodily injury by word or deed, the police department should be contacted immediately so that proper action may be initiated.
It's good to know that the police in Hawaii have a teleport machine that allows them to respond IMMEDIATELY to any threat against me or mine, ANYWHERE. ::)
- Alex
Wow. That is an excellent line of their response for our cause. The 2nd line is just an opinion/suggestion/empty words; but the first line is GREAT. Their reason for denying your legally undeniable American right of self-defense, is that they believe that your right is theirs first, though SC says otherwise. WOW this is great. I can't wait to get my copy-pasted denial letter in hand.
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I sent off my letter to Mayor Carlisle today in response to my permit denial. Once I have received confirmation that it has been delivered I'll post the letter's contents here.
- Alex
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As the saying goes..
"When the balance of life and death is a matter of seconds, the police are only minutes away."
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Well as mentioned in the other thread I did pick up my application for a CCW permit. Now begins the work...
*Find out exactly what the requirements are for the pistol proficiency test required.
*Type a letter that justifies why I need a CCW.
I have several examples where I feel like I could justify the need for one but need opinions. I'll post them later after work.
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Vlad,
Feel free to PM both Funtimes and myself for help with your application.
- Alex
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I just turned in my CCW permit today.... It is called the City and County of Honolulu Metropolitan Police Application. At first i was fustrated by the strict gun laws in Hawaii, but hell it is what it is, plus i always wanted to be a police officer. Good luck to all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'm confused...the name of the concealed firearm permit is the Metro Police Application? Or did you apply to be a police officer? ???
- Alex
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both
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I think it's interesting that our state is so anti-gun, yet our state constitution actually HAS a verbatim RKBA in it.
I speculate that many other states with less brutal gun laws, did not explicitly incorporate one.
could current interpretation of the wording of the rkba be something to push for honolulu city and county?
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I don't think it matters one way or the other. The only thing that I could potentially see it benefiting is that a judge who actually has a brain wouldn't have his or her hands tied at the state level (read: enforcing the current laws and not legislating from the bench). Not that I could ever see that happening here in Hawaii, but the possibility is technically there.
This is one reason why my letter to Mayor Carlisle (which I'll be posting up tomorrow a.m.) explicitly asked him to reconsider my request for concealed OR open carry.
- Alex
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I received delivery confirmation that my letter to Mayor Carlisle has been received. As promised:
Mayor Peter B. Carlisle
City and County of Honolulu
530 S. King St.
Honolulu, HI 96813
Dear Mayor Carlisle:
I am writing this letter in response to the denial of my application for a license to carry a firearm. I have included copies of the narrative portion of my application and my denial letter from Chief of Police Louis M. Kealoha.
I have read Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes and am well aware that the current “may issue†system in place requires the citizens of Hawaii to demonstrate an “urgent threat,†to be considered for a license to carry a firearm and ammunition on their person. However, the United States Supreme Court, in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), ruled that the Second Amendment protects “the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.†In addition, in McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Supreme Court found that the Second Amendment is a “fundamental civil right.†By requiring a “good cause†statement, the State of Hawaii only allows this fundamental right to be exercised by those who can distinguish themselves from the general public; this hardly sounds fundamental. By denying my request to carry a firearm for the purpose of self defense, Chief of Police Kealoha, the City and County of Honolulu, and the State of Hawaii have all violated my Second Amendment right as set forth above.
Moreover, Chief Kealoha stated in his letter that if I, or anyone around me, is placed in danger, I should contact the police immediately so that “proper action may be initiated.†The sad fact of the world that we live in today is that when seconds count, the police are minutes away. According to the Honolulu Police Department (HPD) Annual Report 2009, the average response time to Priority 1 Calls by the HPD is 5.96 minutes. Conversely, the average violent encounter is over in less than one minute. This begs the question, what “proper action†is Chief Kealoha referring to in his letter? The statistics are quite clear: it is highly unlikely, nearly impossible in fact, that the HPD will be able to respond to a report of a violent crime in time to prevent serious bodily injury or death. Neither you nor Chief Kealoha can guarantee my safety or a timely response by the police force if I am faced with a violent encounter. As such, I am left to my own recognizance to protect myself. Furthermore, in Warren v. District of Columbia (1981), the D.C. Court of Appeals ruled that “official police personnel and the government employing them are not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for failure to provide adequate police protection . . . a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular citizen.†Therefore, by denying my right to carry a firearm for self defense, Chief of Police Kealoha, the City and County of Honolulu, and the State of Hawaii have effectively thrown me to the wolves without a way to defend myself or legal recourse-should I manage to survive the encounter.
In light of the above facts, I am requesting that you review my application for a license to carry a firearm, either concealed or carried openly, for the purpose of self defense, and reconsider my denial. I am requesting a formal written response to this correspondence be sent to the address listed above. I can be contacted for further information at *phone number omitted*.
Sincerely,
Alex Europa
- Alex
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Good letter Alex!
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OK, so I got my response...too bad it was from Chief Kealoha, AGAIN. What an absolute joke this government is: I'm pretty sure the way that the rest of the world does business is if you have a problem, you take it up with their supervisor; if they can't fix your problem, then you go up some more...all the way up until you've reached the top or you get resolution that you are happy with. I wish someone could explain to me why I would expect the man who denied my permit to magically change his mind. Of course he's going to say no again...that's why I requested that Mayor Carlisle reviewed it. Not that expected him to approve it, but it would be nice if he would be man enough to say no himself. Anyways, enough ranting, here is Chief Kealoha's response:
Dear Mr. Europa:
Mayor Peter Carlisle has asked me to respond to your letter of December 10, 2010, requesting a review of your application for a license to carry a firearm.
Pursuant to Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, the Chief of Police of the appropriate county has been given the authority to issue such licenses. Therefore, we have conducted another review of your application, and our decision to deny your request has been reaffirmed.
Should you have any questions regarding this matter, please call Officer Glen Yagyagan of our Records and Identification Division at xxx-xxxx.
Sincerely,
Louis M. Kealoha
Chief of Police
cc: Mayor Peter B. Carlisle
Interesting response. What is particularly interesting to me is that the City and County of Honolulu has officially denied me the right to bear arms either openly or concealed. This flies directly in the face of both the United States and Hawaii State Constitutions. To quote from the US Supreme Court's 2008 Heller Decision, ""Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation."
OK, my next letter will be going out on Monday to the Hawaii Attorney General. Not that I hold very much hope of AG Suzuki overturning the decision, their website does say, "The Attorney General also represents the State and its citizens in affirmative actions seeking to protect the rights and interests of the people of Hawaii."
Please feel free to comment or add any thoughts that you would like to see added to the letter.
- Alex
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I don't see how they can legally interpret the second amendment and the RKBA incorporated into the state constitution any other way than how the supreme court has already interpreted it. Right to keep arms, right to bear arms.
maybe mention that:
making the distinction of a person with an approved immediate threat to life and property, that may carry, while denying a person with less immediate threat seeking a permit to legally carry a gun for the same purpose of self defense can only be one of two things: denial of equal protection under the law, or denial of due process of incorporation under the 14th amendment.
if that is going to be their response to Joe Q. Public, then the police department should be telling armored car guards to just call the police if there is trouble, or advise them to just stop carrying around so much money in that van if you don't want to get robbed.
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Good work, Alex! great letter.
It seems to me we are getting very close to putting a class action suit against the state. If 'form letters' are being used for routine denials, then the whole intent of the 2nd amendment is being violated. If no one is getting a permit, then it is obvious that the govt. is 'infringing' the rights of the average citizens. They certainly have the right & responsibility to deny permits to criminals or incompetent people, but that should not extend to all citizens.
I'll probably never carry.. openly or concealed.. well, maybe if i was going to be in a seedy part of town at night.. but that is not the point. I should be able to exercise my right to if i want. I probably won't picket the white house, either, but it is my right to do so if i want. That is the issue, it seems to me. Our constitutional rights are being slowly depleted. It is long overdue for us to insist on our rights being restored to us.. before they govt. decides to take more. We are supposed to be what the govt. is of, for, & by. They should fear us & defer to us, not the other way around.
scotty
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There has to be something we can do about this. Can't the state be sued for infringing upon the rights of our citizens?
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There has to be something we can do about this. Can't the state be sued for infringing upon the rights of our citizens?
Stay tuned ;)
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I think thats the reason why SHOPO was brought in for comment. They aren't HPD but the union that represents the POs.
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It seems to me we are getting very close to putting a class action suit against the state.
It is impossible to ever pass shall-issue or constitutional-carry bills in Hawaii, so litigation is the only way to get the current will-not-issue practice declared unconstitutional (which it obviously is). You've got some denials, and with Heller and McDonald on the books now, strike while the iron is hot!
When you go to court, I will happily contribute to the cause.
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Any updates on this topic? I plan to apply this week, anything I should know?
Thanks :shaka:
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Any updates on this topic? I plan to apply this week, anything I should know?
Thanks :shaka:
Document your encounter as best as you can. Don't take no for an answer is the best thing I can say. Each island has its own little problems (and it's good that we are figuring them out in advance).
Anytime you are given a rule, ask to see it in writing (The dept likes to 'make' things up).
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Post deleted and revised.
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OK, so I got my response...too bad it was from Chief Kealoha, AGAIN. What an absolute joke this government is: I'm pretty sure the way that the rest of the world does business is if you have a problem, you take it up with their supervisor; if they can't fix your problem, then you go up some more...all the way up until you've reached the top or you get resolution that you are happy with. I wish someone could explain to me why I would expect the man who denied my permit to magically change his mind. Of course he's going to say no again...that's why I requested that Mayor Carlisle reviewed it. Not that expected him to approve it, but it would be nice if he would be man enough to say no himself. Anyways, enough ranting, here is Chief Kealoha's response:
Dear Mr. Europa:
Mayor Peter Carlisle has asked me to respond to your letter of December 10, 2010, requesting a review of your application for a license to carry a firearm.
Pursuant to Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, the Chief of Police of the appropriate county has been given the authority to issue such licenses. Therefore, we have conducted another review of your application, and our decision to deny your request has been reaffirmed.
Should you have any questions regarding this matter, please call Officer Glen Yagyagan of our Records and Identification Division at xxx-xxxx.
Sincerely,
Louis M. Kealoha
Chief of Police
cc: Mayor Peter B. Carlisle
Interesting response. What is particularly interesting to me is that the City and County of Honolulu has officially denied me the right to bear arms either openly or concealed. This flies directly in the face of both the United States and Hawaii State Constitutions. To quote from the US Supreme Court's 2008 Heller Decision, ""Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation."
OK, my next letter will be going out on Monday to the Hawaii Attorney General. Not that I hold very much hope of AG Suzuki overturning the decision, their website does say, "The Attorney General also represents the State and its citizens in affirmative actions seeking to protect the rights and interests of the people of Hawaii."
Please feel free to comment or add any thoughts that you would like to see added to the letter.
- Alex
Mine is hanging on the wall.....
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I'm observing this with great interest. Looks like it's "holding their feet to the fire" time.
Excellent letters.
This...
Pursuant to Chapter 134 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, the Chief of Police of the appropriate county has been given the authority to issue such licenses. Therefore, we have conducted another review of your application, and our decision to deny your request has been reaffirmed.
...sounds like pure "weasel-words" to me. What went on while "we conducted another review," and, per funtimes' remark, what precise portions of "Chapter 134" are being cited?
Does Hawaii have an equivalent to FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act), where ordinary mortals such as you and I can request records and documention regarding decisions made?
I am told that in states which require a demonstration of "need" on the applications, a proper response is "All lawful purposes." Don't know if that's helpful or suitable in your situation, but just FYI.
I wonder what the penalties are for someone denying someone else's civil rights? I see it in Hawaii's Bill of Rights, but what remedies do you have? Civil? Criminal?
Feet to the fire time, folks.
Remember, in boxing, it's the jabs and body punches that lead up to the telling blows to the head.
Keep on punchin'.
Terry, 230RN
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^^^Seems a bit lacking in reasons why the CCW was denied.
Perhaps if you folks contacted the Star Advertiser they might be able to help dig up some info............then again maybe not.
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A question occurs to me while filling out the narrative for my CCW: Has Chief Kealoha issued permits to security guards, armored car drivers, etc? I'm hoping that's the case, so I can make the point that I am no less trustworthy than they are, and there are far fewer attempted robberies of banks and armored cars than there are of private citizens. Of course, my permit request will still get denied, because logic seems to be in pretty short supply with the anti-gunners, but at least I'll be able to say I gave it the old college try...
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A question occurs to me while filling out the narrative for my CCW: Has Chief Kealoha issued permits to security guards, armored car drivers, etc? I'm hoping that's the case, so I can make the point that I am no less trustworthy than they are, and there are far fewer attempted robberies of banks and armored cars than there are of private citizens. Of course, my permit request will still get denied, because logic seems to be in pretty short supply with the anti-gunners, but at least I'll be able to say I gave it the old college try...
Armed security guards & armored car drivers do not require CCW's. The companies they work for are licensed to conduct business under HRS 463.
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Armed security guards & armored car drivers do not require CCW's. The companies they work for are licensed to conduct business under HRS 463.
Guards and/or detectives still obtain and utilize the permits issued under HRS 134-9 for their work. I'm down to make a guard agency if anyone wants to split the bond :P
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Armed security guards & armored car drivers do not require CCW's. The companies they work for are licensed to conduct business under HRS 463.
Guards and/or detectives still obtain and utilize the permits issued under HRS 134-9 for their work. I'm down to make a guard agency if anyone wants to split the bond :P
This is incorrect, 134-9 does not apply as no permits are issued. Armed guards carry under the "...place of business, residence, or sojourn..." restriction/exemption. They are limited to the location for which the company is responsible. In the case of armored car drivers/guards, their vehicle and collection/delivery points are considered their place of business. Also the weapons carried by armed guards are owned and registered to the company, not the guard. Every guard signs them out/in at the start/end of the work shift. The only requirement under HRS 134 is they must not be prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm. **Armed security are not allowed concealed carry**
Yes I know the whole lending a firearm question can be raised on this, but that's a completely different matter.
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Colt808, are you sure about this? According to the numbers released in previous statistics, there are quite a few approvals for armed guards carry permits. From what I understand, they are issued open carry permits and are tested by the company they are working for. It may be different from a company that has armed guards stationed at it's location as opposed to armed transports.
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Armed security guards & armored car drivers do not require CCW's. The companies they work for are licensed to conduct business under HRS 463.
Guards and/or detectives still obtain and utilize the permits issued under HRS 134-9 for their work. I'm down to make a guard agency if anyone wants to split the bond :P
This is incorrect, 134-9 does not apply as no permits are issued. Armed guards carry under the "...place of business, residence, or sojourn..." restriction/exemption. They are limited to the location for which the company is responsible. In the case of armored car drivers/guards, their vehicle and collection/delivery points are considered their place of business. Also the weapons carried by armed guards are owned and registered to the company, not the guard. Every guard signs them out/in at the start/end of the work shift. The only requirement under HRS 134 is they must not be prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm. **Armed security are not allowed concealed carry**
Yes I know the whole lending a firearm question can be raised on this, but that's a completely different matter.
I'm not sure where you get 134-9 doesn't apply to armed guards. 134-9 in part, specifically, applies to guards as one cannot be "engaged in the protection of life and property" without being duly licensed as such.
Loomis guards carry a permit, I have stopped them on the military base and required them to show me a permit to carry openly. They have them. The application still runs through 134-9, we have the forms required to be filed from Hawaii county on file. On the permit I physically held and reviewed it was signed by the CoP and possessed the following restrictions: "on duty, in uniform - only."
Form required to be filed by Guards for their permit:
http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/ (http://hawaiiccw.com/hawaii-gun-firearm-laws/hawaii-county-application-license-carry-firearms-weapons/)
Additionally, place of business is not synonymous with place of of employment. As a licensed process server my place of business was my vehicle and I was still prohibited from carrying, storing, or possessing a loaded firearm.
In fact, to delve a little deeper, confine does not mean carry or possess. See Heller v. D.C. (Heller could confine his gun to the home, but could not carry it). You can also review STATE V. RABAGO, 67 HAW. 332, 686 P.2D 824 (1984) where a guy got off on the "carry permit" requirement, which was great and all, but then the legislators went an fixed the way he got off by adding section (b) to the 134-23 - 26, which deems carrying or possession of the guns is a felony.
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This is very intriguing; I did not know there was a small following of people who wanted to peruse CCW in Hawaii. Has there been any head way to the possibility of this coming true or has the movement slowed down. Thoughts?
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This is very intriguing; I did not know there was a small following of people who wanted to peruse CCW in Hawaii. Has there been any head way to the possibility of this coming true or has the movement slowed down. Thoughts?
IMHO the most serious pursuit of CCW in Hawaii aside from the current movement was made by a gentleman on the Big Island. If I remember correctly his litigation is being refused to be heard by the State judicial system. Unfortunately it seems without serious $$$ he was not able to follow up on the litigation.
The current pursuit seems to be growing large in the last year or so. My problem with adding my voice is that if you do apply for a CCW and they ask if you've been turned down before, then it could kill any potential for getting a permit in the future. Yes it is selfish, but it seems that pursuit through the HRA (Hawaii Rifle Association), NRA, and local clubs would bring more pressure on the Counties/State without putting individual future rights in danger.
It has always been the State/County line to deny CCW for all but the most connected of people. It doesn't matter who the chief LEO's were or who the mayors were, it has always been the case and Hawaii is very slow to change.
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This is very intriguing; I did not know there was a small following of people who wanted to peruse CCW in Hawaii. Has there been any head way to the possibility of this coming true or has the movement slowed down. Thoughts?
My problem with adding my voice is that if you do apply for a CCW and they ask if you've been turned down before....
This isn't on the application, Nor any that I have ever filled out in other states.
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Previous attempts at applying have no bearing on the evaluation of your permit -- not here -- nor in any other state.
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^^^It was my understanding on the background checks you will be checked to see if you've been turned down for a CCW.
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^^^It was my understanding on the background checks you will be checked to see if you've been turned down for a CCW.
Police Record Checks. State and Federal.