2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: kaloman on July 07, 2013, 09:19:37 PM
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Anyone know about this incident? This is terrible news to hear.
http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/574305/Fatal-shooting-under-investigation.html?nav=10 (http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/574305/Fatal-shooting-under-investigation.html?nav=10)
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Wow. That sucks. Not much info there.
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Got a phone call about it but havent heard much about it. if i do ill try and fill in
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No details yet! Smh
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Wow.. That is freaky to hear, during a hand gun class too
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That's just sad
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That sucks...wish there was more information
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thats very unfortunate, hopefully more news becomes available soon
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Just read about that this morning.
Last fatal shooting I heard about was the one at Waikiki.
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http://mauinow.com/2013/07/08/fatal-shooting-at-ukumehame-firing-range-under-investigation/ (http://mauinow.com/2013/07/08/fatal-shooting-at-ukumehame-firing-range-under-investigation/)
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http://mauinow.com/2013/07/08/fatal-shooting-at-ukumehame-firing-range-under-investigation/ (http://mauinow.com/2013/07/08/fatal-shooting-at-ukumehame-firing-range-under-investigation/)
was about to post the update.... sad
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wow... I wondered if it was a suicide. Someone just taking the class to have access to a gun. Maybe they will start pre-qualifying people to take the class to weed out anyone who cannot handle weapons.
I feel worse for the instructors and other people taking the class than the woman herself. It would be pretty scarring to see that right before your eyes. Probably moreso had it been more than a .22
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wow... I wondered if it was a suicide. Someone just taking the class to have access to a gun. Maybe they will start pre-qualifying people to take the class to weed out anyone who cannot handle weapons.
I feel worse for the instructors and other people taking the class than the woman herself. It would be pretty scarring to see that right before your eyes. Probably moreso had it been more than a .22
This touches on the exact problem with all gun control laws and policies: you can never have the level of control you desire. The control you think you have is an illusion. When people are involved, you can not anticipate what all individuals will do in a given situation. Sure, you can keep the guns out of the hands of people who have been tagged by the system as high risk, but the system itself is flawed and doesn't catch everyone.
The classes can "pre-qualify" people for every class, but that won't do much to prevent suicidal people from attendance. This specific case was so outside the norm, there isn't much chance of predicting the outcome. Unless the stats have changed, women are far less likely to use a firearm for suicide than men. They more often than not use a suicide attempt to ask for help, and therefore are not inclined to use violent (and more efficient) means to kill themselves. They also tend to make the attempts alone, not in public. If that is still the norm, there isn't much you could have done to screen this person out from taking the class. Add to that, being barred access to firearms doesn't prevent someone from committing suicide. There are so many other methods.
No one can predict how people will behave. All we can do is examine the situation afterward and try to learn what we can that might be helpful.
http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc (http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc)
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sounds like a suicide. sad
*edit
was just about to post about that vid
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Maybe they will start pre-qualifying people to take the class to weed out anyone who cannot handle weapons.
Don't mention this, or HPD will have you get a permit for you to take a pre-qualifying handgun safety class, in order to take the handgun safety class.
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This touches on the exact problem with all gun control laws and policies: you can never have the level of control you desire. The control you think you have is an illusion. When people are involved, you can not anticipate what all individuals will do in a given situation. Sure, you can keep the guns out of the hands of people who have been tagged by the system as high risk, but the system itself is flawed and doesn't catch everyone.
The classes can "pre-qualify" people for every class, but that won't do much to prevent suicidal people from attendance. This specific case was so outside the norm, there isn't much chance of predicting the outcome. Unless the stats have changed, women are far less likely to use a firearm for suicide than men. They more often than not use a suicide attempt to ask for help, and therefore are not inclined to use violent (and more efficient) means to kill themselves. They also tend to make the attempts alone, not in public. If that is still the norm, there isn't much you could have done to screen this person out from taking the class. Add to that, being barred access to firearms doesn't prevent someone from committing suicide. There are so many other methods.
No one can predict how people will behave. All we can do is examine the situation afterward and try to learn what we can that might be helpful.
http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc (http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc)
Shit like that is making me want to be armed at the range... for real.
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So tragic. Obviously someone who was in a lot of pain and anguish. Thouhts go out to her family, and those that bore witness to this tragic event.
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Shit like that is making me want to be armed at the range... for real.
???
Aren't you?
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SNIP
http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc (http://youtu.be/5vPnMbLr5nc)
Two incidents like that happened at a range in Washington at a gun shop and indoor range where I used to go to often. One occured when I lived there and one after I moved back home. In the first incident, the person got a rental and shot himself through the temple. The other got the rental, tucked it his pants and ended up shooting himself in the restroom. I actually met someone that worked at the shop some months back and was at the shop when the second incident occured.
The guys in the shop were always carrying hot guns. The range was adjacent to the gun shop and had a large window separating the range from the shop. In the case of the mother and son murder-suicide, nothing really the staff would've been able to do.
A couple years back, we went to one of those rental places in Waikiki to shoot and they muzzles of the runs were secured via a cable to keep them facing downrange.
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Don't mention this, or HPD will have you get a permit for you to take a pre-qualifying handgun safety class, in order to take the handgun safety class.
Oh, believe me. The state legislature is more than stupid enough to think of this all on their own.
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A couple years back, we went to one of those rental places in Waikiki to shoot and they muzzles of the runs were secured via a cable to keep them facing downrange.
Didn't someone do the same thing at Waikiki despite the steel cable?
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This happened while I worked at Magnum Firearms. It was the third or fourth suicide to occur at Magnum at that point (summer 2009), but the first to happen while I was there. Happy, normal seeming dude in his mid 50's walked in and rented a Sig P220 from me. Bought two boxes of 45acp, and shot all of it except one round at a silhouette target. Put the last round in his chest and it didn't exit the back. He was dead before he hit the ground. Although I will never be able to thank him, he taught me a valuable life lesson that day. Within a week I was looking for a new job.
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Shit like that is making me want to be armed at the range... for real.
.........so you can shoot someone before they are about to commit suicide?
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wow
interesting that even at that close range, the bullet did not exit
must've hit a rib after it went through the heart
This happened while I worked at Magnum Firearms. It was the third or fourth suicide to occur at Magnum at that point (summer 2009), but the first to happen while I was there. Happy, normal seeming dude in his mid 50's walked in and rented a Sig P220 from me. Bought two boxes of 45acp, and shot all of it except one round at a silhouette target. Put the last round in his chest and it didn't exit the back. He was dead before he hit the ground. Although I will never be able to thank him, he taught me a valuable life lesson that day. Within a week I was looking for a new job.
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see heres what everyone is missing... this shows that laws banning guns and stuff these people found a way around it... they didnt even own the guns or had to wait for registration they didnt even have to steal it. sorry i dont know where im going with this but its what came to mind reading the thread. i also liked the lesson learned by diralickt or you coulda just learn some tricks on the tumble bus to use at work. :crazy:
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This story illustrates why it's so important to have liability exemptions for certified firearms safety class instructors. Imagine the lawsuits filed by the relatives of the suicide "victim" as well as by those watching (PTSD claims). There's nothing ANYONE could have done to prevent this.
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It sounds like a suicide. Plain and simple. I just hate it when people kill themselves in such a public manner that it's such a burden for others. Sort of like the jackasses that jump off highway bridges onto the incoming traffic.
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All in all that is a terible situation anyone should ever have to witness. I usually take my wife and kids with me to the range and to think something like that could happen is crazy.
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???
Aren't you?
You can't be armed, and no - I don't have loaded guns just sitting around. You also can't just carry in a holster at the range either on the public pistol side.
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.........so you can shoot someone before they are about to commit suicide?
Did you not look at the damn video of the mother shooting her son, at the gun range? What's to say she stops there? If I saw someone purposefully point a gun at another individual, and shoot them, in the manner displayed in that video - there would most definitely be an imminent threat to health and safety in my direct vicinity. I'm not going to sit and wait to see if they want to kill themselves afterwards; it's a threat - and it must be responded to as such for the health and safety of all in the area. For all I would know is that I just witnessed the last straw in a persons mental breakdown and everyone else around them is next and about to die. If they turn the gun on themselves, then obviously we would not want to shoot (we would want to attempt to de-escalate, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with pointing a loaded firearm in their direction.
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It was a suicide, a friend of a coworker was at that class when it happened one lane over. It was a central island guns and ammo class.
A fourty four year old woman placed the muzzle of a .22 revolver under her chin and intentionally shot herself in the head, according to my coworkers paddling buddy, the range master ordered her to stop, but it happened too fast to do anything but holler stop.
In her purse was a hand written note with "do not resuscitate on it"
Im surprised no one thought of this technique sooner, as there are not gun for rent ranges here...
Pay your class fee, sit through some lectures, and volia...instant access to a sure fire final exit, better than taking a bunch of pills or finding something (hopefully) tall enough to jump off of.
She must have thought it out quite a bit. Pretty slick.
I feel terrible for the range master, and the outfit running the class.
I go to that shop, on occasion and they seem like a good legit family operation... I hope they dont get screwed over something that was utterly beyond their control.
On a side note... all the indoor ranges on the mainland where I used to shoot, all the range masters and staff carried sidearms. Suicide by rental gun is not uncommon... and who says the person who is about to pull a Cobain doesnt want some company?
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Happened at magnum 2 times. 1 fatal and 1 non fatal. Both women.
The non fatal was a young girl who rented a 22 and pointed it at her head and the bullet
Bounced off her skull. She got knocked out. Luckily no one got hurt.
The other was a 9mm. Was messy. Art made his employees clean the mess up.
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Just read darealiket post.
The ones i mentioned were in the early 90's
Must b 3 total. Art was lucky to never get it on te news.
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Just read darealiket post.
The ones i mentioned were in the early 90's
Must b 3 total. Art was lucky to never get it on te news.
They won't/shouldn't show it on the news. Might give copycats an idea.
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Not to sound insensitive but at least it was a suicide and not a mass murder suicide. Still unnecessary attention for the law abiding gun owners of Hawaii.
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>:D
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That's just a terrible thing. .... makes you think twice about taking your young children to gun ranges
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You can't be armed, and no - I don't have loaded guns just sitting around. You also can't just carry in a holster at the range either on the public pistol side.
Are you sh#tting me? So the students are the only ones with firearms but not the instructors? That is just insane almost comically so but it is Hawaii afterall. Are the ROs armed? I never noticed.
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You can't be armed, and no - I don't have loaded guns just sitting around. You also can't just carry in a holster at the range either on the public pistol side.
Anytime I do pistol instruction/training, I always have a loaded pistol on my side.
I don't train anyone on the public range, I guess that's the difference.
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Are you sh#tting me? So the students are the only ones with firearms but not the instructors? That is just insane almost comically so but it is Hawaii afterall. Are the ROs armed? I never noticed.
RO's are not armed.
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Did you not look at the damn video of the mother shooting her son, at the gun range? What's to say she stops there? If I saw someone purposefully point a gun at another individual, and shoot them, in the manner displayed in that video - there would most definitely be an imminent threat to health and safety in my direct vicinity. I'm not going to sit and wait to see if they want to kill themselves afterwards; it's a threat - and it must be responded to as such for the health and safety of all in the area. For all I would know is that I just witnessed the last straw in a persons mental breakdown and everyone else around them is next and about to die. If they turn the gun on themselves, then obviously we would not want to shoot (we would want to attempt to de-escalate, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with pointing a loaded firearm in their direction.
No I did not look at the video (GZ's at work). I assumed you were talking about the lady in Maui as it is the title of the thread.
I do understand your concern, but are you implying that it's more dangerous at a range for people with mental breaks than elsewhere? I tend to differ in that I think the really deranged people who want to go out with a bang are the people who target schools, theaters, malls, etc. I think they realize they don't want to go to a range.
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^^^BTW sorry, never saw the link in the post you quoted.
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It would be a crazy scene if someone started shooting other shooters at the public range. Especially the rifle range.
There's no backstop when you swing to the side and the crossfire of 20 guys returning fire might kill more people than the shooter would.
The RO's should be required to be armed.
I don't even want to think about it as I take my kids to the range almost every time I go.
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Having armed RSO's would mean a complete shift in C&C policy. It means they would be condoning arming of citizens, or it means that they would all be special duty LEOs.
I will say again that people who want to make these giant splashes usually pick soft targets such as schools, theaters, malls, etc. IMHO people showing up at a range would be the suicide person or the guy who wants suicide by cop.
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Having armed RSO's would mean a complete shift in C&C policy. It means they would be condoning arming of citizens, or it means that they would all be special duty LEOs.
I will say again that people who want to make these giant splashes usually pick soft targets such as schools, theaters, malls, etc. IMHO people showing up at a range would be the suicide person or the guy who wants suicide by cop.
I agree 100%.
Unfortunately those people are out there. And I don't think it would be suicide by cop. It would be suicide by us. Which is scary.
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Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns. At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.
It would be a crazy scene if someone started shooting other shooters at the public range. Especially the rifle range.
There's no backstop when you swing to the side and the crossfire of 20 guys returning fire might kill more people than the shooter would.
The RO's should be required to be armed.
I don't even want to think about it as I take my kids to the range almost every time I go.
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Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns. At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.
Yup. That would SUCK !
Good thing this is purely hypothetical and only us responsible gun owners go to the range. :shaka:
And I'll still keep taking the kids. :thumbsup:
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Wow, so sad. Every now and then I always wondered about something like that happening. It's so surreal to hear about something like this. Although very sad for her, her friends and family as well as people at that range, it could've been worse. Wish there was a way to prevent it but it seems almost impossible. Just so saddening words can't explain.
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Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns. At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.
This is pretty much how I feel about going to the "range" we have on the big island. Its out in the woods. There is no body with any authority around. Close proximity to ocean view where all the crazies live. You never know who will show up. I wouldn't even go if there were any other options. I have always met responsible, safety concious people there so far but only been 3x
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Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns. At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.
but really isnt that why we have guns is cause everbody else has guns even the criminals but i like to think that we have guns is to stand up against the tyranny of a government most of all ...then looking at all of you with one eye closed. Unless ive got an open holographic sight then i no need close one eye. :)
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The RO's should be required to be armed.
I was talking to someone about this today. Yes. They should be.
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Another problem with this is now you're saying we have criminals with guns at the range, and us responsible gun owners don't trust eachother with guns. At least thats how the news and politicians will see it.
I'll say it. We have criminals at the gun range. I don't trust other people with guns, unless I shoot with you regularly lol. The reason we have so much safety stuff, is because we know, and understand, the dangers, risks, and finality of handling weapons. We take it serious, because people can get hurt.
I watch people who come near our bay, my students, or my guns. I'm always paranoid at the range, sitting on condition orange for the most part.
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I think we are going too far down the rabbit hole.
There is risk everywhere. We accept it as it is part of life. There's the possibility of a rogue, criminal shooting people amongst an infinite number of things that can happen. I think it is safer to shoot at Kokohead than it is running or walking in Waikiki, downtown or even in my own neighborhood. I seem to be a magnet for drivers that don't see me despite my white shirt, shoes and reflective gear.
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I think we are going too far down the rabbit hole.
There is risk everywhere. We accept it as it is part of life. There's the possibility of a rogue, criminal shooting people amongst an infinite number of things that can happen. I think it is safer to shoot at Kokohead than it is running or walking in Waikiki, downtown or even in my own neighborhood. I seem to be a magnet for drivers that don't see me despite my white shirt, shoes and reflective gear.
The biggest problem is that every where I go to a range, the individuals running it are armed. LIFE instructors are commonly armed.. the IPSC guys are a reload away from being armed. It's been a concern of mine for a while, and I think this is going to be fuel to fight the fight.
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An active shooter with a goal to kill as many people as possible in a short amount of time i.e. what happened in Aurora, Virginia Tech etc. is HIGHLY UNLIKELY at a firearms range.
Look at all those scenarios, those sick CRIMINALS targeted UNARMED individuals. Ask yourself why would a sick individual go to a firearms range to kill in mass? Those "targets" would most likely shoot back or those "other targets" would shoot back as well. Whatever their motives were it certainly didn't involve people who were armed, it involved targets who were unarmed. These active shooters were cowards as well. Now suicidal people have a different agenda altogether. We can look at this recent case and other historical cases as well.
I can understand safety issues i.e. new shooter who doesn't understand rules, not knowing how to handle a gun etc. but not trusting the guy next to you at a gun range thinking he/she might at any time turn around and shoot you? Do you have substantiating proof that he/she is a criminal and should not be in possession of a firearm? Perhaps range personnel or LE should know so that this person can be escorted and dealt with.
There has to be a level of understanding that doesn't cross over to irrational paranoia.
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An active shooter with a goal to kill as many people as possible in a short amount of time i.e. what happened in Aurora, Virginia Tech etc. is HIGHLY UNLIKELY at a firearms range.
Look at all those scenarios, those sick CRIMINALS targeted UNARMED individuals. Ask yourself why would a sick individual go to a firearms range to kill in mass? Those "targets" would most likely shoot back or those "other targets" would shoot back as well. Whatever their motives were it certainly didn't involve people who were armed, it involved targets who were unarmed. These active shooters were cowards as well. Now suicidal people have a different agenda altogether. We can look at this recent case and other historical cases as well.
I can understand safety issues i.e. new shooter who doesn't understand rules, not knowing how to handle a gun etc. but not trusting the guy next to you at a gun range thinking he/she might at any time turn around and shoot you? Do you have substantiating proof that he/she is a criminal and should not be in possession of a firearm? Perhaps range personnel or LE should know so that this person can be escorted and dealt with.
There has to be a level of understanding that doesn't cross over to irrational paranoia.
That mother didn't seem to hesitate to blow her son away. And it's not the individuals who are shooting up the school im concerned with... you might have someone wanting to hurt or kill another person steal guns, shoot someone (a targeted individual), and snap or hit fight mode.
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That mother didn't seem to hesitate to blow her son away. And it's not the individuals who are shooting up the school im concerned with... you might have someone wanting to hurt or kill another person steal guns, shoot someone (a targeted individual), and snap or hit fight mode.
It's not the scenario that you can think of that should scare you. It's the one you CAN'T imagine that should worry you. All you can do is prepare, stay alert, and hope you're lucky enough to be armed at the moment you need to be. Like I tell others who ask me, "So, why do you need guns? You really think the government is becoming tyrannical, or that little Johnny living next door is plotting to kill you?" My reply is always, "I own a gun for the same reason I have insurance. You never know when you'll need it. I'd much rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it!"
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Its sad but fact is there is not much anyone can do if a person is determined to take their own life.
Just an idea here: Since the majority of people are taking the pistol safety course to buy a handgun and with Hawaii laws being what they are, why don't instructors request that students get their long gun permit first? Instructors would know that some sort of background check has been done. And students will know if they can own a firearm, what they need to get sorted out and then decide whether they still want to spend $100+ for the class. Does that make sense or is it just me?
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Its sad but fact is there is not much anyone can do if a person is determined to take their own life.
Just an idea here: Since the majority of people are taking the pistol safety course to buy a handgun and with Hawaii laws being what they are, why don't instructors request that students get their long gun permit first? Instructors would know that some sort of background check has been done. And students will know if they can own a firearm, what they need to get sorted out and then decide whether they still want to spend $100+ for the class. Does that make sense?
The part that makes no sense is requiring everyone to get a long gun permit to take a handgun course. You are also asking that everyone do the 2 week wait before being allowed to attend the class.
Not everyone wants to buy a long gun (strange, yes, but true!). Plus, the added cost to the state/county to issue the superfluous long gun permit to acquire would be very wasteful.
If the extra cost and time of doing this just to handle a gun for training will actually solve the problem, then it makes sense. If this does NOTHING to screen out violent or suicidal mentally disturbed people who are more likely to pose a danger to themselves or others, then the process you outlined will be like many of the anti-gun regulations we already have. They make someone feel better, but they have zero effect on preventing these life threatening situations.
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The part that makes no sense is requiring everyone to get a long gun permit to take a handgun course. You are also asking that everyone do the 2 week wait before being allowed to attend the class.
Not everyone wants to buy a long gun (strange, yes, but true!). Plus, the added cost to the state/county to issue the superfluous long gun permit to acquire would be very wasteful.
If the extra cost and time of doing this just to handle a gun for training will actually solve the problem, then it makes sense. If this does NOTHING to screen out violent or suicidal mentally disturbed people who are more likely to pose a danger to themselves or others, then the process you outlined will be like many of the anti-gun regulations we already have. They make someone feel better, but they have zero effect on preventing these life threatening situations.
I believe the point he was making was that it would force anyone wanting to take a handgun safety course to already have received a background check verifying their suitability to own a firearm and would also force them to wait two weeks to attempt suicide at a handgun training class.
Not an altogether bad idea, only bad part is it forces everyone to suffer for the 1/100,000th of a percent of people intent on committing suicide this way.
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In 2010 (the last year I can find CDC statistics for) there were 31,672 deaths due to firearm related injuries.
This number includes all murders, suicides and accidents.
30,944 of these deaths were by black, white and Hispanic people.
Based on my research I am led to conclude that statistically, Pacific Islanders are less likely to die from firearms.
Yea!!!!! :thumbsup:
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It also helps that we have the lowest % of people without firearms.
On the negative side (for us) that means that we have more anti gun people living here. They live among us.
Maybe that's why we have very anti gun laws and in the top 5 for being unfriendly to gun owners.
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I believe the point he was making was that it would force anyone wanting to take a handgun safety course to already have received a background check verifying their suitability to own a firearm and would also force them to wait two weeks to attempt suicide at a handgun training class.
Not an altogether bad idea, only bad part is it forces everyone to suffer for the 1/100,000th of a percent of people intent on committing suicide this way.
When I bought my first handgun, there was a federal law that mandated a 5 day waiting period to take possession of a handgun after purchase. I always thought that was the "cool down" period allowance. I eventually got my CCW in WA that allowed me to take possession right away, but had no use for it here, so I let it expire years ago.
This unfortunate incident does serve as a reminder for all to be vigilant and maintain situational awareness. A day at the range should be fun, relaxing and enjoyable experience. This incident will be on my mind the next time I'm at the range or teaching a basic pistol course for sure. However, I can't let it diminish the enjoyment that I get from shooting.
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The 14 day waiting period doesn't make sense in it's current form. If anything, it should be 14 day waiting period on your first firearm application, supposidly for cool down period/mental health checks, etc. It shouldn't apply to any firearm purchased after that.
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Its sad but fact is there is not much anyone can do if a person is determined to take their own life.
Just an idea here: Since the majority of people are taking the pistol safety course to buy a handgun and with Hawaii laws being what they are, why don't instructors request that students get their long gun permit first? Instructors would know that some sort of background check has been done. And students will know if they can own a firearm, what they need to get sorted out and then decide whether they still want to spend $100+ for the class. Does that make sense or is it just me?
I must respectfully disagree with Moose and think this is a good idea. It is not uncommon for trainers to ask for copies of permits to acquire before allowing you to take their instructional classes.
Is it wasteful? Yes and no. If the person gets a long gun within a year, then no it is not wasteful. If the person does not get a long gun within a year, then it's really on the C&C and State for requiring this as part of their process. No other Right requires you to be registered/checked out/etc. Can you imagine if the reporters/journalists of this country had to reapply every year for their First Amendment permit so they could report news or write stories or perform investigative journalism?
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The 14 day waiting period doesn't make sense in it's current form. If anything, it should be 14 day waiting period on your first firearm application, supposidly for cool down period/mental health checks, etc. It shouldn't apply to any firearm purchased after that.
14 day period is supposedly/probably to allow the different PD's time to perform their background, mental health, processing, etc. Not saying it's right or efficient, just what the time is probably for.
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I must respectfully disagree with Moose and think this is a good idea. It is not uncommon for trainers to ask for copies of permits to acquire before allowing you to take their instructional classes.
Is it wasteful? Yes and no. If the person gets a long gun within a year, then no it is not wasteful. If the person does not get a long gun within a year, then it's really on the C&C and State for requiring this as part of their process. No other Right requires you to be registered/checked out/etc. Can you imagine if the reporters/journalists of this country had to reapply every year for their First Amendment permit so they could report news or write stories or perform investigative journalism?
So, what, exactly is accomplished by obtaining the permit pre-training? (the obviously baited question assumes you see some benefit derived from the process of applying for a permit)
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So, what, exactly is accomplished by obtaining the permit pre-training? (the obviously baited question assumes you see some benefit derived from the process of applying for a permit)
I thought that part was pretty clear: because the majority of folks are taking the class to meet state requirements to purchase a handgun. Never said it should be a prerequisite for the class, just a sensible recommendation. Because if someones goal is to own a handgun, knowing that they can pass the background check and get a permit to acquire would certainly benefit them in the end. I don't think it matters if someone is going to get a long gun. It's about getting the printing/photographing/background check part out of the way and possibly finding out if there is something they need to resolve.
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IMHO getting the required background checks and permit for long gun will do nothing to avert what happened in this incident or any other suicidal attempts or even those who intend to use the firearm for ill intent. If a person is that motivated, they will do regardless. All the permitting and requirements forced on us does is infringe on your rights and cause law abiding citizens to waste time and money. Otherwise you would see massive shootings, suicides, and utter chaos in states that do not have all these hoops to jump through. Since we do not see this, and it has been proven, with O-losers own studies, that an armed law abiding citizenry actually make communities safer, IMO the whole process is a waste of time.
Just do an instant background check at the gun store and be done with it.
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IMHO getting the required background checks and permit for long gun will do nothing to avert what happened in this incident or any other suicidal attempts or even those who intend to use the firearm for ill intent. If a person is that motivated, they will do regardless. All the permitting and requirements forced on us does is infringe on your rights and cause law abiding citizens to waste time and money. Otherwise you would see massive shootings, suicides, and utter chaos in states that do not have all these hoops to jump through. Since we do not see this, and it has been proven, with O-losers own studies, that an armed law abiding citizenry actually make communities safer, IMO the whole process is a waste of time.
Just do an instant background check at the gun store and be done with it.
+1
The reality that a motivated person is capable of doing damn near anything they want to, regardless of any laws or obstacles.
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So, what, exactly is accomplished by obtaining the permit pre-training? (the obviously baited question assumes you see some benefit derived from the process of applying for a permit)
This:
I believe the point he was making was that it would force anyone wanting to take a handgun safety course to already have received a background check verifying their suitability to own a firearm and would also force them to wait two weeks to attempt suicide at a handgun training class.
Not an altogether bad idea, only bad part is it forces everyone to suffer for the 1/100,000th of a percent of people intent on committing suicide this way.
Training is not only about a persons Right to own a firearm, but it's can also be a financial one for the trainers. What if the person cannot be issued a permit to acquire and backs out? Trainer is now left with a spot that could have been filled by someone else. The second reason is if they will be rejected in the permit to acquire process I'd rather not be associated with that individual until something changes where they can.
I do agree that if someone wants to do something nutty, they will..........not much you can do about it.
It's just my preference (and I am credentialed that I could teach the NRA Basic Pistol).
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I have 2 daughters, both over 21. Neither owns a gun of any type, and neither has been required to pass a background check.
*I* personally required they take the handgun safety class and go practice with me before I allow them access to my guns unsupervised (read as: have the combos to the safes).
One took the handgun safety class with me and has been practicing nearly every time I do, and the other has not. One has access to the gun safes, and the other does not.
Requiring a background check, long gun permit, or any other state-mandated requirement would be an unnecessary imposition on our time ... unnecessary in that it offers no real benefit toward safety.
There is no need for a permit if the student is not planning to buy a gun. Even IF you require a background check, what will that accomplish? People who know they can't own a gun aren't going to take a safety class HOPING they can get a permit.
Next you'll tell us we all need a background check to become a parent!!
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IMHO getting the required background checks and permit for long gun will do nothing to avert what happened in this incident or any other suicidal attempts or even those who intend to use the firearm for ill intent. If a person is that motivated, they will do regardless. All the permitting and requirements forced on us does is infringe on your rights and cause law abiding citizens to waste time and money. Otherwise you would see massive shootings, suicides, and utter chaos in states that do not have all these hoops to jump through. Since we do not see this, and it has been proven, with O-losers own studies, that an armed law abiding citizenry actually make communities safer, IMO the whole process is a waste of time.
Just do an instant background check at the gun store and be done with it.
I like this idea the best.
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There is no need for a permit if the student is not planning to buy a gun. Even IF you require a background check, what will that accomplish? People who know they can't own a gun aren't going to take a safety class HOPING they can get a permit.
Actually just the opposite is true.
People who know they can't own a gun will take a class or rent a gun in order to get an otherwise unobtainable firearm in their hands.
Let me make something clear, I do not support additional background checks, classes or other restrictions.
The reality though is that people that can not otherwise possess a firearm, and intent on suicide using a firearm will try anything possible to get their hands on a firearm.
Statistically the person that commits suicide with a firearm (at a range or class) falls into certain parameters.
1)Usually they are alone.
For this reason most ranges that rent guns will not rent a gun to an individual.
If you're with another person, they'll rent you a pistol.
Now if you bring your own pistol, you can shoot there with no problem, even if you're alone.
2) People that own firearms do not typically go to a range to commit suicide if they decide to commit suicide.
There are other factors but these two relate to the current discussion.
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Next you'll tell us we all need a background check to become a parent!!
Absolutely.
Some of these welfare collecting, drug addict bums that become parents have no business doing so.
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Can't really sterilize the world. :-\
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I have 2 daughters, both over 21. Neither owns a gun of any type, and neither has been required to pass a background check.
*I* personally required they take the handgun safety class and go practice with me before I allow them access to my guns unsupervised (read as: have the combos to the safes).
One took the handgun safety class with me and has been practicing nearly every time I do, and the other has not. One has access to the gun safes, and the other does not.
Requiring a background check, long gun permit, or any other state-mandated requirement would be an unnecessary imposition on our time ... unnecessary in that it offers no real benefit toward safety.
There is no need for a permit if the student is not planning to buy a gun. Even IF you require a background check, what will that accomplish? People who know they can't own a gun aren't going to take a safety class HOPING they can get a permit.
Next you'll tell us we all need a background check to become a parent!!
1. I commend you on having your daughters take a safety class prior to allowing them to shoot.
2. With regards to safety, I do agree that people who want to resort to violence will find away. I will again reiterate it's one more level of protection to guys who perform the classes and again as a person who is certified to do so this is something I would consider to help protect me (if not safety wise, then at least financially).
3. I do disagree about background checks as the guys south of the border then would have free reign to purchase firearms legally above the border and move them south. To date this is done illegally through straw purchases, but there does need to be some checks and balances. The trouble is what would be a "reasonable" checks and balances.
4. Background check to become a parent.........the State already decides that for you in some cases:
http://rt.com/usa/california-prison-sterilized-inmates-782/ (http://rt.com/usa/california-prison-sterilized-inmates-782/)