2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: dirsh on July 26, 2013, 11:09:50 AM
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I've been thinking of having 22lr as home defense guns. Low recoil, low noise easy manuerverability makes it seem like a good choice. Actually low noise is my biggest concern since we can't have suppressors here. I don't want go deaf trying to defend my life
Did some quick googling and came up on this
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/)
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I keep my LCR .22 for a backup HD gun
my primary is my .45 or .357
I would want something with deadly potential for HD
i mean, i wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight. so to speak.
if my life or the lives of my family are in danger, i want something that has ample knock down power.
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Any gun is better than no gun.
I would just keep a pair of these next to your HD gun.
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I use .22 easy to shoot for anyone. ..low recoil...easy follow up shots. I can prob shoot off 10rnds very accurate in short period. .22 at close range can be lethal
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Any gun is better than no gun.
I would just keep a pair of these next to your HD gun.
True, but given the choice dirsh may be better off looking for something along the lines of a usc, etc. Carbine in a handgun caliber with the capacity beyond what is allowed for handguns.
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I use .22 easy to shoot for anyone. ..low recoil...easy follow up shots. I can prob shoot off 10rnds very accurate in short period. .22 at close range can be lethal
True, but some 22lr semi autos are very finicky. Shoot with my old Mosquito I'd probably have to shoot 1 round then throw the pistol because it's not working after that.
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Times like this make you wish the Ruger charger with BX-25 wasn't on the no go list.
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If noise is your biggest concern, I wouldn't worry about it. First, I really wouldn't recommend a less-effective lifesaving tool; defending your life is much more important than protecting your hearing. Second, a few gunshots aren't going to be that big of a deal. Some folks seem to be convinced that firing a gun indoors without hearing protection will leave you looking like a bystander at the bombing of a discotheque, with blood running out your ears and instant stone deafness. I've fired quite a few guns over the years without the benefit of hearing protection, such as when hunting, and my annual audiograms keep coming back satisfactory. If the internet rumors about hearing loss had merit, everyone who was ever a bit slow getting their earmuffs back on after a cease-fire at the range would be learning American Sign Language right now.
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Hope ur a crack shot. Only wounding the perp may be grounds for a lawsuit in Hawaii.....
Dead man tell no tales.....
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What about a PS90 or UZI :) Oh yeah, stupid carbine barrel. Nevermind.
Just use whatever pistol you got. I don't think using a .22 will "save" your hearing any more or less. Read about scopes failing even due to sharper report/shock with the .22 round but I don't understand that. Also some people wrote in their AAR they don't even recall hearing their guns firing. fwiw we keep ear pro bedside as well.
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If noise is your biggest concern, I wouldn't worry about it. First, I really wouldn't recommend a less-effective lifesaving tool; defending your life is much more important than protecting your hearing. Second, a few gunshots aren't going to be that big of a deal. Some folks seem to be convinced that firing a gun indoors without hearing protection will leave you looking like a bystander at the bombing of a discotheque, with blood running out your ears and instant stone deafness. I've fired quite a few guns over the years without the benefit of hearing protection, such as when hunting, and my annual audiograms keep coming back satisfactory. If the internet rumors about hearing loss had merit, everyone who was ever a bit slow getting their earmuffs back on after a cease-fire at the range would be learning American Sign Language right now.
Think Cougar is right on this one. Though the crack of a rifle or handgun can be unpleasant, it probably does little to no damage at all to your hearing unless you like to use the side of your head as a platform to steady your aim. Prolonged exposure to noise is the real killer.
Though "stopping power" has been and still is a subject of debate, you would probably be better off using something more powerful than a 22 lr if you're going to pull the trigger to stop someone from attacking you. Either way, once you pull the trigger, you've committed yourself to being run through the legal system gauntlet. You may as well using something that stands a greater chance of creating a wound channel that will result in the cessation of forward movement by your attacker. Not saying a 22 lr can't do that. Just saying that shot placement is more critical as Speedtek mentioned with a 22 lr than with a .40 or even a 9 mm.
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I think any round has the capability to do damage. I still remember getting hit with a .25 cal from a pocket pistol. It went through a window, into my right arm and fractured my right humerus. Luckily it stayed imbedded in my bone and not break into tiny bits.. 22lr got some spice behind it for a tiny caliber but it does the job! Unless you shooting somebody like Yokozuna or konishiki then I advise you to take a headshot...
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What about a PS90 or UZI :) Oh yeah, stupid carbine barrel. Nevermind.
Just use whatever pistol you got. I don't think using a .22 will "save" your hearing any more or less. Read about scopes failing even due to sharper report/shock with the .22 round but I don't understand that. Also some people wrote in their AAR they don't even recall hearing their guns firing. fwiw we keep ear pro bedside as well.
PS90 would be a great choice with that mag capacity.
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Times like this make you wish the Ruger charger with BX-25 wasn't on the no go list.
just get a 10/22 with a side folding stock and BX-25. pretty sure that would do just fine, no?
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just get a 10/22 with a side folding stock and BX-25. pretty sure that would do just fine, no?
I was just being sarcastic.
I wouldn't recommend 22lr for home defense unless that were your only option.
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I was just being sarcastic.
I wouldn't recommend 22lr for home defense unless that were your only option.
I wonder how some of the .17 Win super mag would do. Those things are cooking out like 3400+ fps..
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.
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I wonder how some of the .17 Win super mag would do. Those things are cooking out like 3400+ fps..
.17 penetrates helmet
17hmr vs 22lr vs army helmet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSIp22uaWrQ#)
17hmr vs 22lr vs army helmet
How far will a .22 LR Kill? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY#ws)
How far will a .22 LR Kill?
@ 440yds 22LR was still considered lethal.
*Comment: But you must hit the target at the right spot.
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Any of you guys checked out the statistics from the link I posted?
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I read part of it, I saw the stats on a different website.
Link that I am providing if I am not mistaken uses that stat.
For the Record : 22 Caliber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdr14xVetXM#ws)
For the Record : 22 Caliber Beats the .45
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I wonder how some of the .17 Win super mag would do. Those things are cooking out like 3400+ fps..
Not that I would carry a firearm in Hawaii but if I were to pocket carry a gun that would disappear in my pocket, it would look like this.
22 magnum ain't no joke.
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5-10 rnds center mass at 10-15 feet into a intruder should ruin his day
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22lr for HD, can can...... :thumbsup:
So if you hit the perp with 10rds ::) of 22lr versus 1 round in 45acp, is that still self defense?
Or would it matter what caliber it was...?
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22lr for HD, can can...... :thumbsup:
So if you hit the perp with 10rds ::) of 22lr versus 1 round in 45acp, is that still self defense?
Or would it matter what caliber it was...?
I've always subscribed to the school of thought that you should use the most powerful caliber that you can put 2 precise shots on target with, in under 1 second.
I want to stop the threat as quickly as possible.
Now another argument that I've heard others say is that if you used a tiny cartridge like a 22lr and took 20 shots on target to achieve the desired result, a savvy prosecutor could argue that you had ample time to run away or do any number of other things rather than shoot the poor innocent 17 year old kid that broke into your house just because he was hungry for Reese's and kiwi drink.
I'm not sure I agree with that argument but I can see the validity of it.
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Yeah, good point KK.... He not innocent if he touch the Twinkies though.... ;D
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Yeah, good point KK.... He not innocent if he touch the Twinkies though.... ;D
On a lighter note.
I'd like to welcome back twinkles. :thumbsup:
:stopjack:
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How Often – and Where – to Shoot an Attacker
Even in the very unlikely event that all your rounds are landing on target, the sad truth is that pistol rounds, no matter what their caliber, or what the bullet type, are woefully inadequate and are most unlikely to solve your problem with a single generic hit to the center of the thoracic cavity.
http://blog.thejustnation.org/2012/01/how-often-and-where-to-shoot-an-attacker/ (http://blog.thejustnation.org/2012/01/how-often-and-where-to-shoot-an-attacker/)
How Many Times Should You Shoot Someone? A Surprising Answer from Pima AZ
As soon as you fire a second round, no matter what happened to the first round – whether it missed the bad guy entirely, or just caused a light graze on his arm, or if it incapacitated him instantly and completely – you open yourself up to accusations of excessive use of force. Imagine yourself in court, with a prosecutor talking to the jury ‘Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, whether right or wrong, maybe the defendant believed he needed to shoot at the deceased, but did the defendant need to shoot at him multiple times, and change what might have been a survivable wound into a lethal hail of bullets? This was a …..’ – insert your term of choice here :
Cold blooded murder, not an act of self defense
Crazed shooting spree beyond what any reasonable man would do
Rambo rage rather than rational response
Gangland style murder
Military type assassination
Extreme and uncalled for use of excessive force
Massive overreaction that resulted in the victim dying rather than just being wounded
or any other phrase that might be called upon.
http://blog.thejustnation.org/2011/05/how-many-times-should-you-shoot-someone-a-surprising-answer-from-pima-az/ (http://blog.thejustnation.org/2011/05/how-many-times-should-you-shoot-someone-a-surprising-answer-from-pima-az/)
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just get a 10/22 with a side folding stock and BX-25. pretty sure that would do just fine, no?
I can see someone shooting someone using a BX-25......You will be the talk of the town. For sure the Police will charge you with using an illegal hicap magazine, that happens to fit a Pistol.....
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On a lighter note.
I'd like to welcome back twinkles. :thumbsup:
:stopjack:
I second the twinky notion...now if I can only find them..
I'm sure 2 well placed 9mm or larger would do much more damage than any .22 could ever do. Under hawaiis' s criminal friendly laws I'm sure if I shot someone with 10 rnds of .22 I'd be arrested and charged. I talked to a older officer who told about a incident where some guy shot a big moke 10x with a 10/22. Some shots hit the chest rest went into the mokes back. He got charged with manslaughter base off shots into the back assuming the moke was attempting to retreat. Not sue of the disposition of the case in the end.
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I read part of it, I saw the stats on a different website.
Link that I am providing if I am not mistaken uses that stat.
For the Record : 22 Caliber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdr14xVetXM#ws)
For the Record : 22 Caliber Beats the .45
he makes some good points
pretty cool production on the vid too
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Ok so the guy in the video said:
A) nothing beats a shotgun.
B) a 45acp does considerably more tissue damage than a 22lr
C) the only way a 22 beats a 45 is if you miss with a 45, and can't manage accurate follow up shots.
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Ok so the guy in the video said:
A) nothing beats a shotgun.
B) a 45acp does considerably more tissue damage than a 22lr
C) the only way a 22 beats a 45 is if you miss with a 45, and can't manage accurate follow up shots.
You noticed that too eh?
The reason there are sooo many mouse gun defensive shootings, is cause there are so many mouse guns out there.
If all you got is a .22, .25, .32 or .380 then run it, but its not ideal.
The mechanisim of putting down a violent attacker quickly is this, in this order:
Central nervous system hit
Massive blood loss
Small caliber, and low velocity medium caliber rounds lack the chops to get this done quickly.
Sure you an very quickly riddle a target with .22 rounds with frightening accuracy... and chances are you will hit somthing vital, but what happens if you dont? Since you just squirted your 10 rounds of .22, now you are looking at a combat reload... not something you really want to get into as a civilian. 10/22 with a Bx25 you say? Ridonkulous, I say... if you go for a long arm, it should be a 556, 7.62x39, or big pistol caliber carbine, or a shotgun.
I agree with the school of thought that says run whatever you can shoot confidently and fire a rapid controled pair with.
And load said weapon with a expanding type round that offers the highest velocity for the caliber to ensure it actually opens up.
As the crackpot in the video said its all about training and practice... so why not learn to deliver rapid controled pairs of .38 spl, 9mm, .40, .357 mag or .45?
When faced with a violent encounter, decisive action and massive counter attack is what wins a fight. Medium high velocity rounds or large calibers is what you need, a katana or english broadsword to the .22's icepick if you will.
Me? FWIW, I'm one of those "velocity freaks" so 9mm+p or .40 with a hollow point big enough to mix a mai tai in, 5.56mm M193 out of an 18" barrel, 3" magnum 00 shells and stuff like that is where I put my faith. Physics is science... science is law.
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Any gun is better than no gun.
I would just keep a pair of these next to your HD gun.
Sharp senses are a must during random fluidic defense altercations. The ear protection may end up getting you killed taking the time to put it on or if you fail to hear a second attacker coming up behind you. The same thing applies to eye aligned sight systems and their inherent handicapping ability of your peripheral vision during an altercation, the second nature use of a laser and light is the best choice for sighting systems accompanied by an unimpeded iron sight system. If such a time ever comes, you wont know when, where or how it will happen. Keeping your senses and arms reflex sharp and in tune are your best choice. Reduction of collateral damage is also important. There are two good choices when it comes to HD weapons for the average armed person, a dependable 22 SA Pistol or the better but more expensive choice FN 5.7×28mm. Those 2 firearms are the best weapon to have more times out of a hundred than any other for civilian home defense, that you can bank on. Bigger is seldom better in such altercations and when it comes right down to it, we're talking the odds here. If you're using a larger caliber weapon you can expect some serous hearing loss and again that big caliber weapon wont help you when the guy behind you clobbers you over the head because your previous volley deafen you to their behind approach. Senses are the most important thing, period. Making sure you keep them as sharp as can be in all aspects is your best bet.
traditional LE weapons are seldom a good choice for HD although more and more LE are leaning towards the FN 5.7×28mm recognizing their superior handling in hand for quicker target reacquisition and the vastly decreased assault on their senses.
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How many people here have discharged a firearm within a closed room without ear protection? Take a stab at the next question; which firearm would you most likely be able to hear a pin drop on a ceramic tile floor after discharging it without ear protection within a closed room? (a) .22lr (b) Larger than .22lr
How many can hear a squeaky floor or someone walking across your floor? Could you still hear them moving immediately after discharging a firearm within the room? Could you hear someone screaming with a burglars hand over their mouth in the next room after taking down one of the burglars you encountered with a 45 S&W? When in a darkened room you see a burglar and iron sight in the burglar (you identified them with your light first), to your side another burglar is swinging a baseball bat at your head, do you notice? You're in a dark room and see a burglar and shoot them only to turn on the lights and see it's your kid who came home for a visit from college unannounced and you just shot them with a 45 S&W. Another situation comes along and you shoot the burglar and its a "clean" shot with your 9mm but back in the bedroom behind the burglar is your kid sleeping eternally on their bed also because the round penetrated the burglar the wall and your kid. How many situations can you think of where a large caliber firearm would be the last thing you want, do you really want to discharge a large caliber firearm in your home or apartment? Discharging any firearm in your home is nuts to begin with but how far nuts does nuts need to be? Think about it very carefully, few to no situations are you sitting on a horse in front of a bad guy out in the desert.
Since I can take down a 300lb boar with a 10-22 @ 100+ yards every time, why on earth would one need anything above a 22 pistol at point blank range to take down a human attacker? "Stopping power"... my ass.
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How many people here have discharged a firearm within a closed room without ear protection? Take a stab at the next question; which firearm would you most likely be able to hear a pin drop on a ceramic tile floor after discharging it without ear protection within a closed room? (a) .22lr (b) Larger than .22lr
How many can hear a squeaky floor or someone walking across your floor? Could you still hear them moving immediately after discharging a firearm within the room? Could you hear someone screaming with a burglars hand over their mouth in the next room after taking down one of the burglars you encountered with a 45 S&W? When in a darkened room you see a burglar and iron sight in the burglar (you identified them with your light first), to your side another burglar is swinging a baseball bat at your head, do you notice? You're in a dark room and see a burglar and shoot them only to turn on the lights and see it's your kid who came home for a visit from college unannounced and you just shot them with a 45 S&W. Another situation comes along and you shoot the burglar and its a "clean" shot with your 9mm but back in the bedroom behind the burglar is your kid sleeping eternally on their bed also because the round penetrated the burglar the wall and your kid. How many situations can you think of where a large caliber firearm would be the last thing you want, do you really want to discharge a large caliber firearm in your home or apartment? Discharging any firearm in your home is nuts to begin with but how far nuts does nuts need to be? Think about it very carefully, few to no situations are you sitting on a horse in front of a bad guy out in the desert.
Since I can take down a 300lb boar with a 10-22 @ 100+ yards every time, why on earth would one need anything above a 22 pistol at point blank range to take down a human attacker? "Stopping power"... my ass.
Sorry man but it really seems like that's a big block of ramble lol.
Here is one problem that I have not seen any semi-automatic .22LR pistol be able to overcome: reliability.
I have almost all the .22's on the market from GSG 1911, Sig Mosquito, Ruger SR22, S&W MP 22, Walther P22 - none of these function to the level that I would consider any of them reliable. The only ones that I have seen to be reliable, are the MK4 and it's predecessors lol.
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Anyone opting for a .22lr for a defensive selection when there are other options easily and / or readily available to them should completely re-evaluate their self or home defense plan and their overall education on the entire topic from terminal ballistics to defensive principles and practices. ASAP.
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Sorry man but it really seems like that's a big block of ramble lol.
Here is one problem that I have not seen any semi-automatic .22LR pistol be able to overcome: reliability.
I have almost all the .22's on the market from GSG 1911, Sig Mosquito, Ruger SR22, S&W MP 22, Walther P22 - none of these function to the level that I would consider any of them reliable. The only ones that I have seen to be reliable, are the MK4 and it's predecessors lol.
Well, I haven't had the reliability issues you've encountered with the .22lr but if we were talking the .17 then you'd have a point. As per being a block of ramble, how many firearms altercations have you encountered in life aside from those seen on T.V.?
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Anyone opting for a .22lr for a defensive selection when there are other options easily and / or readily available to them should completely re-evaluate their self or home defense plan and their overall education on the entire topic from terminal ballistics to defensive principles and practices. ASAP.
Are you an ammunition sales rep by chance? If not, the marketing plan has worked well on you. I'd recommend doing some study on Human anatomy and get in some more target practice. "Know thy prey". While you're at it think about what happens to you when you get amped up by adrenalin in such a situation. Your whole world will spin so to speak. There's far more to it than ballistics, defense principles and practices and all that will be a forgone issue when your in an actual situation. You can count on that.
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Sharp senses are a must during random fluidic defense altercations.
Exactly why I use an electronic earmuffs which amplifies low level sound
The ear protection may end up getting you killed taking the time to put it on or if you fail to hear a second attacker coming up behind you.
Make up your mind. Sharp senses or fail to hear because you refuse to use hearing protection.
There are two good choices when it comes to HD weapons for the average armed person, a dependable 22 SA Pistol or the better but more expensive choice FN 5.7×28mm.
I respectfully disagree.
Those 2 firearms are the best weapon to have more times out of a hundred than any other for civilian home defense, that you can bank on.
Do some research.
Bigger is seldom better in such altercations and when it comes right down to it, we're talking the odds here.
Do some research, specifically: Marshall/Sanow
If you're using a larger caliber weapon you can expect some serous hearing loss (Use ear protection)
and again that big caliber weapon wont help you when the guy behind you clobbers you over the head because your previous volley deafen you to their behind approach.
Use ear protection
Senses are the most important thing, period. (Use ear protection)
Making sure you keep them as sharp as can be in all aspects is your best bet. (Use ear protection)
traditional LE weapons are seldom a good choice for HD although more and more LE are leaning towards the FN 5.7×28mm recognizing their superior handling in hand for quicker target reacquisition and the vastly decreased assault on their senses.
Let me get this straight:traditional LE weapons are not a good choice for home defense but you believe the obscure 5.7x28 is the best choice, yet LE is now using it as a traditional LE weapon? Hmmm?
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I noticed you didn't comment on getting shot before you got that ear protection on... assuming you even had a chance to get them on. BTW the sound picked up in those things is not nearly as acute as your natural ears hearing within a room and when the adrenalin bumps up the sound of your heart pounding and it overcomes the sound output of the headset amp you're hearing nothing but "THUMP THUMP THUMP" (Try it). Never said five n seven was a traditional LE firearm... read it again.
I'm lol at this moment envisioning someone taking the time to put on ear protection and then maneuvering around their house bumping into walls etc. with those large bulging objects on the sides of their head. That's comical. Are you sure you don't want to put on full body armor too? May as well, every situation encountered in home invasion will allow the time may as well put on a cup of coffee while your at it. Why not, 10ths of seconds don't matter.
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I noticed you didn't comment on getting shot before you got that ear protection on... assuming you even had a chance to get them on. BTW the sound picked up in those things is not nearly as acute as your natural ears hearing within a room. Never said five n seven was a traditional LE firearm... read it again.
I'm lol at this moment envisioning someone taking the time to put on ear protection and then maneuvering around their house bumping into walls etc. with those large bulging objects on the sides of their head. That's comical. Are you sure you don't want to put on full body armor too? May as well, every situation encountered in home invasion will allow the time may as well put on a cup of coffee while your at it. Why not, 10ths of seconds don't matter.
Based on your experience with intruders in your home?
Your baseless, research free opinion is appreciated. :thumbsup:
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Based on your experience with intruders in your home?
Your baseless, research free opinion is appreciated. :thumbsup:
Yes and far more than that. In case you didn't get it, a 22lr especially a 22lr "sub sonic" fired within a closed room will not deafen your hearing beyond reliability.
Again... try it (at an indoor gun range that is). Get your adrenalin up and listen to what you hear in the head set... try it. At this point you do have all the time you need to figure out what it might be like, why wait till it happens to find out?
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I love it, the PPE police are more worried about a little hearing damage than putting down a threat with something that resembles authority.
My grandpa fought in WWII, and fired his 30.06 garand countles times inside buildings, on the field of battle in europe. soldiers didnt wear ear pro back then... He went on to work at united airlines as a jet engine mechanic, back in the days before the "PPE police" ruled the world... guess what? he lived to the age of 80, and did NOT wear a hearing aid and had pretty good hearing for an old fella.
I find it laughable that hearing damage is even a consideration when choosing a proper tool for self defense.
And that a round that is only suitible for humane kills on rabbits and squirrels is some of you guys' first choice...
Can you kill a man with a .22? yeah you can... you could also do it with a butter knife, but that doesnt mean its a logical choice.
Nice, mds... take a .22 make it heavy, and slow it down to under 950 fps.
The ONLY thing a .22 has going for it at close range is penetration... and by going to a heavy for caliber subsonic round... you just took that away smart guy. I find your advice suspect... perhaps a little dangerous. Sub sonic .22 for home defense... really?
I want to kill the bastard... not piss him off.
And yes, ive fired a mag full of .223 indoors without ear pro, and yes, it makes your ears ring, and yes you hear the world like you just came out a rock concert for an hour or two and yes I may have done some permanent damage to my hearing, but the hearing test I took for the DOT last year didnt show any loss... I certainly wouldnt make a habit of it, but in a limited circumstance it is doable
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I find it laughable that hearing damage is even a consideration when choosing a proper tool for self defense.
And that a round that is only suitible for humane kills on rabbits and squirrels is some of you guys' first choice...
Can you kill a man with a .22? yeah you can... you could also do it with a butter knife, but that doesnt mean its a logical choice.
Only a complete idiot would choose a 22lr for home defense when there are other options.
What's worse is those same idiots go and give people advice to do the same thing.
:wtf:
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I love it, the PPE police are more worried about a little hearing damage than putting down a threat with something that resembles authority.
My grandpa fought in WWII, and fired his 30.06 garand countles times inside buildings, on the field of battle in europe. soldiers didnt wear ear pro back then... He went on to work at united airlines as a jet engine mechanic, back in the days before the "PPE police" ruled the world... guess what? he lived to the age of 80, and did NOT wear a hearing aid and had pretty good hearing for an old fella.
I find it laughable that hearing damage is even a consideration when choosing a proper tool for self defense.
And that a round that is only suitible for humane kills on rabbits and squirrels is some of you guys' first choice...
Can you kill a man with a .22? yeah you can... you could also do it with a butter knife, but that doesnt mean its a logical choice.
Obviously you didn't notice that it's not about hearing damage, it's about acute hearing recovery time after a round is fired. In a closed room a round is fired, your hearing will become momentarily handicapped and that's hearing you may need to hear other things occurring in the house during the event.
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Only a complete idiot would choose a 22lr for home defense when there are other options.
What's worse is those same idiots go and give people advice to do the same thing.
:wtf:
And you know all this from what?
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And you know all this from what?
2 combat deployments and years of law enforcement experience.
Next question.
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2 combat deployments and years of law enforcement experience.
Next question.
Ahh... so then you're aware of how the average person who hasn't been in such a scenario reacts physically and you're aware of collateral damage all within ones home who is slumbering peacefully and who has never seen the action you and I have. Applying your ready, deployed and aware perspective to the average Joe. Good idea. Good thing I don't subscribe to my cool calm handling under such similar situations and apply it to the average Joe. Any validity to that Kingkeoni? Think about it before answering.
Geared up, seen action and on your way to another situation. Simple as pie for you.
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Ahh... so then you're aware of how the average person who hasn't been in such a scenario reacts physically and you're aware of collateral damage all within ones home who is slumbering peacefully and who has never seen the action you and I have. Applying your ready, deployed and aware perspective to the average Joe. Good idea. Good thing I don't subscribe to my cool calm handling under such similar situations and apply it to the average Joe. Any validity to that Kingkeoni? Think about it before answering.
Geared up, seen action and on your way to another situation. Simple as pie for you.
You're only as good as your training.
The "average Joe" can train to use a firearm properly.
Nobody, trained or not can predict every single scenario but being able to "stop" threats as quickly as possible is in everybody's best interest.
The truth of the matter is that all things being equal, a 22lr is not your best option.
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Are you an ammunition sales rep by chance? If not, the marketing plan has worked well on you. I'd recommend doing some study on Human anatomy and get in some more target practice. "Know thy prey". While you're at it think about what happens to you when you get amped up by adrenalin in such a situation. Your whole world will spin so to speak. There's far more to it than ballistics, defense principles and practices and all that will be a forgone issue when your in an actual situation. You can count on that.
First I will wholly agree that .22lr is very deadly. I have seen if first hand more than once. I lost a close friend who was shot and killed with a single .22 to the heart. It was a non survivable wound no matter the caliber. That does not however mean that a .22lr is an ideal or even a good option for a defensive caliber. Having said that I don't tend to give out advice on forums when it comes to actual personal defense or tactics and I don't like to upset people or necessarily call them out on line as it is just not my style or worth my time. However I do draw the line when there are those who are offering advice that could be very counter productive to saving ones own life. Therefore I will make general statements without getting into detail as I did in my first post. I can without a doubt say that some of the advice offered in this thread should be highly scrutinized by those who may be reading it. As for myself and the study and / or application of this topic and getting more target practice, that makes me smile. There are those who might think I am behind a trigger and devote far too much of my professional and personal life to this topic already. Again I truly do not wish to offend, but there is information in this thread that is not correct or even close to the best advice.
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You're only as good as your training.
The "average Joe" can train to use a firearm properly.
Nobody, trained or not can predict every single scenario but being able to "stop" threats as quickly as possible is in everybody's best interest.
The truth of the matter is that all things being equal, a 22lr is not your best option.
Not who's best option? The person with years and years of firearms handling in combative situations or the average Joe who has never seen any sort of firearms action beyond a target? "All ready on the left... all ready on the right... you may commence firing when your dog target appears." "Gear up gents! We have a date with Hoji in the sand." You and I are ready Kingkeoni but are they? Anyhow, all that put aside, yes you are correct a larger caliber will yield more effective results and I wouldn't argue that aspect but how does experienced field combat compare to sleepy suburban Joes? You must be aware that most persons fire the first round above the targets head in a first time altercation scenario. The same is found to be true on the battle field for first time encounters by most troops. I'd like to say there's whole host of considerations you and I don't consider from our field experience when tossing it into family home situations.
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damn...everone's an expert with a .22 --- anyone got shot with one before?
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True, but given the choice dirsh may be better off looking for something along the lines of a usc, etc. Carbine in a handgun caliber with the capacity beyond what is allowed for handguns.
That USC/UMP conversion I used to have was perfect for Hawaii home defense, it was almost hearing safe with the 16" barrel and recoil made it feel like a paintball gun, and I never had a malfunction of any kind with it. With 230gr Gold Dots it is about as perfect as can be. Id love to have that gun again today, but Im not gonna pay $3k for one again. Probably cheaper getting a Type 7 FFL and get a demo letter for a real UMP.
As for what I have at hand in my present state; a .22 caliber round (5.56x45) is optimal given the weapon platform, ammunition type, noise and concussion mitigating aids, and terrain surrounding my home. :thumbsup:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/Guns/IMG_0085_zps36fdf666.jpg)
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damn...everone's an expert with a .22 --- anyone got shot with one before?
LMAROF, not this dude, thank god. I have seen what it does to the hogs I drop every now and then. I will admit it's not as effective as a "kill" weapon due to little or no hydrostatic shock and or no real surrounding tissue damage but that being said I know it's just as effective at incapacitating a target when striking the appropriate regions. As with most critters through the neck vertebra will incapacitate anything and that's ending the threat or "effective" so to say. Hitting a human neck is ample stopping power with a 22lr and there are also instant kill shots using 22lr each determined by the targets posture/position in relation to the shooter. This is where knowing anatomy as well as critical areas therein play a significant roll in a 22lr's effectiveness or ineffectiveness. You can be the most crack shot on earth but it wouldn't mean much if you don't know your target and that's an aspect of the issue that many people fail to learn correctly. Unless your sending in a 50 cal to hit the target you may end up getting killed yourself and therein is another problem, many people cannot effectively handle a 50 cal or 45 cal etc.
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Are you an ammunition sales rep by chance? If not, the marketing plan has worked well on you. I'd recommend doing some study on Human anatomy and get in some more target practice. "Know thy prey". While you're at it think about what happens to you when you get amped up by adrenalin in such a situation. Your whole world will spin so to speak. There's far more to it than ballistics, defense principles and practices and all that will be a forgone issue when your in an actual situation. You can count on that.
We would all do well to get to know a little about the posters here before assuming things about their experience of what they've been through. There's a lot of excellent information and experience in the membership here, despite it being a relatively small Hawaii shooting community, and Surf is an excellent resource. I've never met him, but I will say that I respect him and his input/feedback tremendously through interactions on 2A and in other forums.
I have never met you, so I don't know anything about you or whether not not you are speaking from "within your lane". But I can tell you that you are wrong about your assumptions of Surf's. You can count on that.
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We would all do well to get to know a little about the posters here before assuming things about their experience of what they've been through. There's a lot of excellent information and experience in the membership here, despite it being a relatively small Hawaii shooting community, and Surf is an excellent resource. I've never met him, but I will say that I respect him and his input/feedback tremendously through interactions on 2A and in other forums.
I have never met you, so I don't know anything about you or whether not not you are speaking from "within your lane". But I can tell you that you are wrong about your assumptions of Surf's. You can count on that.
OK Drck1000...
Lets make it simple. You're now sleeping in a major hotel in Honolulu. You have your firearm with you as is said legal by the state of Hawaii for self protection. You have many people surrounding you, above you, below you and around you. Someone breaks in wielding a machete and you fire a few rounds off with a 9mm you have with you. What are the chances that you hit someone else in the hotel? Is that a chance you're willing to take? If you did hit someone else, what would happen to you from a legal aspect and how would it make you feel? So what part of re-evaluation was needed if you opted to take your .22lr with you instead? Will your chances of an unintentional collateral kill decrease if you reduce your caliber and grain load while staying in a hotel, apartment or "ah to bb" housing development? Where and when does responsible gun ownership begin from a common sense aspect? Did you really need a 9mm to provide yourself with protection in that situation?
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Since MDS apparently refuses to do any research while demanding that everyone else get educated, I thought he might enjoy some light reading on the topic of auditory exclusion (http://www.samatters.com/2012/01/12/understanding-stress-part-6-auditory-exclusion/). The synopsis is that in a high-stress situation (i.e. someone's trying to kill you in your own house), the human brain has a tendency to exclude information that it regards as less important. (i.e. the second dude swinging a bat at your head) Maybe you'll have less ringing in your ears after you shoot your 22 than I will with my 12 gauge, but on the other hand, my first guy will be dead or dying after the first volley of buckshot which will allow me to deal with his baseball bat-wielding accomplice one on one. The guy you shot with a 22 to protect your hearing will be the same guy stabbing you in the back while you try to deal with his friend because the 22 caliber is a piss poor choice for home defense.
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For those who are serious, I'd like to point out that a load of 00 buck throws nine pellets with each pull of the trigger, each of which is substantially larger than a 22lr bullet. Someone was pointing out the hazards of multiple shots and the possibility of having it become a big to-do about excessive force. I say eliminate the possibility by discharging nearly a pistol mag worth of projectiles with a single pull of the trigger. :thumbsup:
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I'm going to make this damn clear to everyone, if someone asks what the best home defense gun is. I'm going to say a Ruger 22 handgun or some other dependable brand. WHY? Because that person has no idea how to handle a firearm if they are asking and for that type of person starting at the beginning and working their way up is a better bet than starting at the top and doing more harm to themselves and others than is necessary. Every damn time I hear this question I see forgetfulness rise from otherwise savvy gun owners. The question is not "What gun is best for your home defense". Give them the beginners tip and let them figure it out the rest of the way for themselves, assuming they ever bother to take it beyond a 22 level. Get it? Responsible gun ownership begins with training, then you establish experience and then you face considering the circumstances of advise you're giving out to others.
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I'm going to make this damn clear to everyone, if someone asks what the best home defense gun is. I'm going to say a Ruger 22 handgun or some other dependable brand. WHY? Because that person has no idea how to handle a firearm if they are asking and for that type of person starting at the beginning and working their way up is a better bet than starting at the top and doing more harm to themselves and others than is necessary. Every damn time I hear this question I see forgetfulness rise from otherwise savvy gun owners. The question is not "What gun is best for your home defense". Give them the beginners tip and let them figure it out the rest of the way for themselves, assuming they ever bother to take it beyond a 22 level. Get it? Responsible gun ownership begins with training, then you establish experience and then you face considering the circumstances of advise you're giving out to others.
No doubt your intentions are good, but just because someone isn't a 24/7 gun nut doesn't make them a retard. I use the same policy with people new to guns that I use with anyone else--I answer the question they asked me. If they're asking what the best gun for home defense is, it's absolute bullshit to give the answer to a different question. In this case, you've got someone asking "What gun is BEST for home defense?" and you're providing an answer to the question, "What's the best gun for learning to shoot?"
If someone asks you what's the most economical car to drive, do you tell them to get a Ford Excursion on the assumption that they're retards who can't drive and should be in a big, safe vehicle?
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Since MDS apparently refuses to do any research while demanding that everyone else get educated, I thought he might enjoy some light reading on the topic of auditory exclusion (http://www.samatters.com/2012/01/12/understanding-stress-part-6-auditory-exclusion/). The synopsis is that in a high-stress situation (i.e. someone's trying to kill you in your own house), the human brain has a tendency to exclude information that it regards as less important. (i.e. the second dude swinging a bat at your head) Maybe you'll have less ringing in your ears after you shoot your 22 than I will with my 12 gauge, but on the other hand, my first guy will be dead or dying after the first volley of buckshot which will allow me to deal with his baseball bat-wielding accomplice one on one. The guy you shot with a 22 to protect your hearing will be the same guy stabbing you in the back while you try to deal with his friend because the 22 caliber is a piss poor choice for home defense.
Seriously? Another crackpot savvy gun owner telling a beginner that his shotgun is the best home defense. A shotgun for f sakes, go back to sleep Biden.
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Sorry man but it really seems like that's a big block of ramble lol.
Here is one problem that I have not seen any semi-automatic .22LR pistol be able to overcome: reliability.
I have almost all the .22's on the market from GSG 1911, Sig Mosquito, Ruger SR22, S&W MP 22, Walther P22 - none of these function to the level that I would consider any of them reliable. The only ones that I have seen to be reliable, are the MK4 and it's predecessors lol.
To chris' point my ruger mk ii comp target with polished bolt will not feed reliable with anything other than mini-mags or federal traget ammo. Even with mini-mags its never been 100%. Though with mini mags ftf or fte are few and far between.
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No doubt your intentions are good, but just because someone isn't a 24/7 gun nut doesn't make them a retard. I use the same policy with people new to guns that I use with anyone else--I answer the question they asked me. If they're asking what the best gun for home defense is, it's absolute bullshit to give the answer to a different question. In this case, you've got someone asking "What gun is BEST for home defense?" and you're providing an answer to the question, "What's the best gun for learning to shoot?"
If someone asks you what's the most economical car to drive, do you tell them to get a Ford Excursion on the assumption that they're retards who can't drive and should be in a big, safe vehicle?
What part of your disjointed comparative do I begin with Mr. Biden?
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Seriously? Another crackpot savvy gun owner telling a beginner that his shotgun is the best home defense. A shotgun for f sakes, go back to sleep Biden.
Why are you still hung up on the idea that you should answer the question you think a new guy should have asked, instead of the one he actually asked?
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Why are you still hung up on the idea that you should answer the question you think a new guy should have asked, instead of the one he actually asked?
Exactly!!
Not sure I follow how MDS got to "Because that person has no idea how to handle a firearm if they are asking" and "Give them the beginners tip". You are assuming the OP is a beginner, but what I read from him is that he's weighing the pros and cons of choosing a .22LR for HD. Extrapolating all the bad things that can happen from an assumption, that he is a beginner, might be off-base.
Just because someone asks a question doesn't mean he's a beginner. It just means he's worried about the downside of gunshot-related hearing loss. There are those who target shoot all year long but never thought about every aspect and consequence related to firing a gun inside for for home defense. That's why there are so many classes and materials available to teach such things.
:geekdanc:
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No doubt your intentions are good, but just because someone isn't a 24/7 gun nut doesn't make them a retard. I use the same policy with people new to guns that I use with anyone else--I answer the question they asked me. If they're asking what the best gun for home defense is, it's absolute bullshit to give the answer to a different question. In this case, you've got someone asking "What gun is BEST for home defense?" and you're providing an answer to the question, "What's the best gun for learning to shoot?"
If someone asks you what's the most economical car to drive, do you tell them to get a Ford Excursion on the assumption that they're retards who can't drive and should be in a big, safe vehicle?
Oh: so by your dysfunctional comparative you're saying if someone wants to learn how to drive put them in a Semi Truck and if someone want to learn how to fly put them in charge of the yolk on a passenger jet. Those are some great comparatives.... thanks for shedding such wisdom down upon me. Really, I'm comprehending you now. So we may as well tell everyone the best home defense weapon is not the Colt AR15 but rather the M16 A-2. Oh hell; why stop there? Why not tell them to acquire an old field artillery gun. Oh that's right, there is a best home defense gun... right? LOL I don't know what's more naïve, asking the question or trying to answer it with your favorite pick of the litter. Good luck Shotgun Annie.
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Interesting how this thread went from .22 is a good home defense gun to if someone was asking for advice I would tell them a .22
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Interesting how this thread went from .22 is a good home defense gun to if someone was asking for advice I would tell them a .22
Here's the bottom line...
Use whatever YOU want in your home, I'll use whatever I deem appropriate in my home.
Yea! We all win. :rofl:
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Interesting how this thread went from .22 is a good home defense gun to if someone was asking for advice I would tell them a .22
"22lr for home defense?" is a question not a statement.
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Exactly!!
Not sure I follow how MDS got to "Because that person has no idea how to handle a firearm if they are asking" and "Give them the beginners tip". You are assuming the OP is a beginner, but what I read from him is that he's weighing the pros and cons of choosing a .22LR for HD. Extrapolating all the bad things that can happen from an assumption, that he is a beginner, might be off-base.
Just because someone asks a question doesn't mean he's a beginner. It just means he's worried about the downside of gunshot-related hearing loss. There are those who target shoot all year long but never thought about every aspect and consequence related to firing a gun inside for for home defense. That's why there are so many classes and materials available to teach such things.
:geekdanc:
Again - the topic is a question "22lr for home defense?", yes or no?
If that's a persons question the answer is "yes". Unsaid is, figure it out from there or in my case I did point out the Five N Seven as a better choice.
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I've been thinking of having 22lr as home defense guns. Low recoil, low noise easy manuerverability makes it seem like a good choice. Actually low noise is my biggest concern since we can't have suppressors here. I don't want go deaf trying to defend my life
Did some quick googling and came up on this
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/)
You can read, right? Yes or no....
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Oh: so by your dysfunctional comparative you're saying if someone wants to learn how to drive put them in a Semi Truck and if someone want to learn how to fly put them in charge of the yolk on a passenger jet. Those are some great comparatives.... thanks for shedding such wisdom down upon me. Really, I'm comprehending you now. So we may as well tell everyone the best home defense weapon is not the Colt AR15 but rather the M16 A-2. Oh hell; why stop there? Why not tell them to acquire an old field artillery gun. Oh that's right, there is a best home defense gun... right? LOL I don't know what's more naïve, asking the question or trying to answer it with your favorite pick of the litter. Good luck Shotgun Annie.
You would be more successful with the ad hominems if you were more clever. At any rate, since my little analogy went right over your head, the point was: answer the question that was asked, not the question you think should have been asked. I thought that was pretty clear. If folks want to debate about whether a shotgun or a semi-automatic rifle or a decent caliber handgun make the best choice for home defense, more power to 'em, good arguments can be made for each. But don't give them bad advice based on your assumption that they're too stupid to ask the right questions.
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You can read, right? Yes or no....
LOL yes I can, but it still means they are not too knowledgeable about firearms.
The bottom line is this. Home defense is not having to rely on your firearm in high risk circumstances most the time as one would in LE or combat. Home defense is something few to none of us will ever encounter, but when we do, it most likely will not require a machine gun or a 50 cal. "Easy does it" for home defense is fine in most circumstances. Now if we're fearful of militaristic assault by rogue government entity or starving crowds attacking our home for food then by all means LOL, bring out the big guns. I've a collection for what ever might come up, god forbid.
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You would be more successful with the ad hominems if you were more clever. At any rate, since my little analogy went right over your head, the point was: answer the question that was asked, not the question you think should have been asked. I thought that was pretty clear. If folks want to debate about whether a shotgun or a semi-automatic rifle or a decent caliber handgun make the best choice for home defense, more power to 'em, good arguments can be made for each. But don't give them bad advice based on your assumption that they're too stupid to ask the right questions.
Using a 22lr for home defense is not "bad advice" and thinking it's bad advice is BS. I prefer the Five N Seven but for most people the 22lr is perfect. Nothing anyone can write or link to will prove that otherwise. There are more pros than cons, period.
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Using a 22lr for home defense is not "bad advice" and thinking it's bad advice is BS. I prefer the Five N Seven but for most people the 22lr is perfect. Nothing anyone can write or link to will prove that otherwise. There are more pros than cons, period.
No, it's pretty much universally accepted as bad advice. If you're going to give it, fine, but you'll need to get used to people telling you it's bad advice.
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I'm going to make this damn clear to everyone, if someone asks what the best home defense gun is. I'm going to say a Ruger 22 handgun or some other dependable brand. WHY? Because that person has no idea how to handle a firearm if they are asking and for that type of person starting at the beginning and working their way up is a better bet than starting at the top and doing more harm to themselves and others than is necessary. Every damn time I hear this question I see forgetfulness rise from otherwise savvy gun owners. The question is not "What gun is best for your home defense". Give them the beginners tip and let them figure it out the rest of the way for themselves, assuming they ever bother to take it beyond a 22 level. Get it? Responsible gun ownership begins with training, then you establish experience and then you face considering the circumstances of advise you're giving out to others.
Some of the worst advice I have ever seen someone say they would give. Let's provide people with a functioning, but less than reliable weapon platform to guide their safety and decisions. I await your comments on how I don't know anything, how I must suck, how I can't shoot, how I know nothing at all about weapons and so forth.
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To chris' point my ruger mk ii comp target with polished bolt will not feed reliable with anything other than mini-mags or federal traget ammo. Even with mini-mags its never been 100%. Though with mini mags ftf or fte are few and far between.
When I have seen my buddies shoot them, they seemed a little more steady in function than the guns I own. That said, it wouldn't surprise me that you are having issues or require specific ammo (mine do too). Based on how often I shoot the .22's, I think they are all unreliable and run like shit. My walther p22 performs the best, following that, it's definitely the GSG 1911, but none of them fall into what I would consider "reliable."
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No, it's pretty much universally accepted as bad advice. If you're going to give it, fine, but you'll need to get used to people telling you it's bad advice.
Really? It's universally accepted as bad advice you say. Tell that to the majority of gun owners, it would appear they disagree with you according to the firearms death stats.
Have you tried to buy 22 ammo recently?
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Really? It's universally accepted as bad advice you say. Tell that to the majority of gun owners, it would appear they disagree with you according to the firearms death stats.
Have you tried to buy 22 ammo recently?
Suicide is NOT the same as a defensive firearm use / death.
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Suicide is NOT the same as a defensive firearm use / death.
You are correct, but it does demonstrate some form of "reliability" ;)
Most gunshot wounds are 22 caliber, how's that one work?
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Not sure what I want to add to this discussion at this point but can't stop thinking about that lady who retreated with her kids all the way into the closet and was forced to shoot the perp in the face 5x and he still wasn't DRT. Wasn't it .38 cal revolver?
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You are correct, but it does demonstrate some form of "reliability" ;)
Most gunshot wounds are 22 caliber, how's that one work?
it works lots of people underestimate that caliber and thats why a lot of people are killed by it
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Anyone want to explain why this guy is getting so bent out of shape over .22lr?
My input: compared to everything else, it sucks balls.
P.S. the reason you can't get .22lr is not because is so fantastically awesome for self defense, but because its cheap to shoot compared to everything else. Don't fool yourself into thinking people are bulk buying because its superior; if 7.62x39 was 500 rounds for $20, you bet your ass people would be buying that over .22lr
LOL No, you're correct, my 50 cal is far more superior. But I'll bet you more people carry a .22 than any other firearm. They'll seldom fess up and endorse it but they certainly find them pleasing to carry. What's up with that?
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You are correct, but it does demonstrate some form of "reliability" ;)
Most gunshot wounds are 22 caliber, how's that one work?
It works because 22 caliber gunshot wounds encompasses: 22 short, 22 long, 22 long rifle, 22wmr, 22 hornet, 220 swift, .223, .224, 556, 22-250, etc...
The stats are compiled based on bullet width.
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You are correct, but it does demonstrate some form of "reliability" ;)
Most gunshot wounds are 22 caliber, how's that one work?
Jeez, this is starting to be more sad than fun. I almost feel bad for bursting your bubble, but the frequency of shootings involving 22s is a function of it's overall popularity (basically every single gun owner has one) and its particular popularity as a first firearm for kids. You really should read a few books, take a few classes, and keep an open mind.
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There's nothing universal about applying a tool to any job. There are basics which may be universal, but application, suitability, etc. are guided by many variables.
There are 4 universal recommendations I have seen mentioned time and again about choosing the right home defense weapon:
#1 - Shotguns are the best weapon for home defense.
Long guns have more stopping power than a pistol (faster projectile coupled with greater accuracy).
The biggest benefit of shotguns is their ability to shoot shot, resulting in the spreading out of the shot. This allows a larger area to be hit with each trigger pull, reducing the requirement for precision shooting, and, depending on the type of ammunition and range, can cause greater damage than a single bullet from a handgun.
They require less skill to learn to shoot accurately.
They are much less complicated to operate.
They are not as picky with regard to the brand or type of ammo they can use reliably.
Pump action and break-open action shotguns are more reliable than semiauto handguns.
Shot shells are relatively cheaper and more available right now than many pistol ammo calibers.
#2 - If choosing a pistol for HD, a revolver is a better choice than a semiauto.
For first time handgun owners, revolvers are probably the better choice.
The design is simple, and the use is even simpler.
Revolvers can be operated more easily and safely than a semi (e.g. clearing the weapon for cleaning).
The more complicated design of pistols creates more opportunities for the failure of one or more components to disable it Requires extra training and practice to ensure the steps to clear a stoppage and return the firearm to working order can be performed instinctively. By comparison, this makes the revolver more reliable in a HD situation.
#3 - For more experienced users, or users willing to take a formal instruction, a semi-automatic handgun may make more sense due to their increased capacity and easier follow-up shots.
Full-size frame handguns are recommended for HD, having a barrel length 4"-6.5". Easier to control than compact handguns (better accuracy and follow ups in an HD situation), less felt muzzle flip & recoil due to larger size and weight, and normally easier for most to learn to shoot than a smaller pistol.
#4 - The best caliber to use in a handgun is the largest round you can routinely use accurately, can afford to buy for practice, and which satisfies any limitations or constraints you personally have, such as maximum number of rounds in the mags, weight being carried in your holster (if you also use the gun for open or concealed carry), how it fits your hand, the need to consider over-penetration, etc., etc. If this describes .22LR, then that's what you need to use.
Conclusions: For defense within the home, the shotgun is generally recognized by many to be a superior choice due to the close ranges and reduced likelihood of over-penetration. Not to mention, the sound of a shotgun being racked delivers the universal message that says "wrong house, go away".
As to the question of which pistol caliber is best, given the same shooter in the same situation with the same skills and experience, IT IS ALL RELATIVE, and it depends on the circumstances during the attack. The many variables which can make a small round a better choice can also make same round totally ineffective by comparison, given changes in those variables.
There are, of course, many "negatives" in addition to each of the above "positives." None of them, with regard to basic suitability and reliability, change the conclusions. The negatives go back to limitations, constraints, and suitability to a given set of circumstances.
This is not my opinion, but a collection of several source's opinions and recommendations I've read over the last 8 months. Hopefully something here will add to the discussion at hand!
Aloha!
:geekdanc:
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FBI - Handgun Wounding Factors (http://www.scribd.com/doc/156698319/FBI-Handgun-Wounding-Factors#)
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FBI - Handgun Wounding Factors (http://www.scribd.com/doc/156698319/FBI-Handgun-Wounding-Factors#)
Chris your link has links to some very personal documents..
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Chris your link has links to some very personal documents..
All my scribd stuff is either school work, or documents that we sent people (like city and county). Thanks for looking out though!
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idk about 22lr but i think 22 mag would be a viable choice, especially in something like the PMR-30, with 30rds of 22mag in the magazine it doesn't sound like a bad idea. too bad were limited to 10rd in hawaii though.
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22LR might be a good HD round if you can sneak up behind the perp and put 1 or 2 into his head behind the ear Mafia style. :shake:
In seriousness though, if that's all my wife can shoot accurately, then I'm considering it. ( In addition to other more substantial weapons for myself.)
Any gun gives her a better chance than a broomstick.
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22LR might be a good HD round if you can sneak up behind the perp and put 1 or 2 into his head behind the ear Mafia style. :shake:
In seriousness though, if that's all my wife can shoot accurately, then I'm considering it. ( In addition to other more substantial weapons for myself.)
Any gun gives her a better chance than a broomstick.
I can see a .22 pistol being handy. Your wife can use it to fend off the attacker long enough to get to the shotgun! ;)
As many have stated here before, the mere presentation of a firearm is "normally | usually | often" enough of a deterrent to end a confrontation. Statistics on how often that happens are under-reported, since the situation was neutralized without gunfire, injury, or death.
In that regard, presentation of a .22 pistol should have close to the same effect as a .38 or 9mm in terms of preventing an attack.
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idk about 22lr but i think 22 mag would be a viable choice, especially in something like the PMR-30, with 30rds of 22mag in the magazine it doesn't sound like a bad idea. too bad were limited to 10rd in hawaii though.
The PMR 30 is a real nice gun.
Light, accurate and stoked with 2200 fps hornady V-max, quite effective.
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If somebody determined enough to break in here they need to be shot with anything I have until stopped.
KEEP FKG OUT.
(that said, reconsider any shot from behind unless perp advancing on or has loved one hostage etc.)
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I can see a .22 pistol being handy. Your wife can use it to fend off the attacker long enough to get to the shotgun! ;)
As many have stated here before, the mere presentation of a firearm is "normally | usually | often" enough of a deterrent to end a confrontation. Statistics on how often that happens are under-reported, since the situation was neutralized without gunfire, injury, or death.
In that regard, presentation of a .22 pistol should have close to the same effect as a .38 or 9mm in terms of preventing an attack.
To me still is reliability for the pistols. From what I have seen though, the little SMG 22's and rifles seem to function way better! I don't have personal experience on that though since I don't own one (yet).
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The PMR 30 is a real nice gun.
Light, accurate and stoked with 2200 fps hornady V-max, quite effective.
I didn't realize 22WMR was that much more powerful than 22LR until I picked one up.
22WMR will EXPLODE a head of cabbage.
Do they sell 10 round mags for the PMR 30 or do they have to be blocked like the Springfield XDM ?
( off-topic but same questions for the FN Five-Seven )
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I didn't realize 22WMR was that much more powerful than 22LR until I picked one up.
22WMR will EXPLODE a head of cabbage.
Do they sell 10 round mags for the PMR 30 or do they have to be blocked like the Springfield XDM ?
( off-topic but same questions for the FN Five-Seven )
Cost of ammo is considerably less for 22wmr compared to 5.7x28
Not sure about the mags
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For what its worth, over the last 20 of reading the NRA 'armed citizen', I guess I've read of a couple of dozen fatal resident-on-perp shootings in HD situations in which a 22 'revolver' was used. There are a lot of variables determining the fatal outcome I'm sure, but for what its worth.....
Also, remember a .25 or .380 JHP may be a good compromise as far as lethality vs earsaving, relative to earsplitters like 357 or 45.
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For what its worth, over the last 20 of reading the NRA 'armed citizen', I guess I've read of a couple of dozen fatal resident-on-perp shootings in HD situations in which a 22 'revolver' was used. There are a lot of variables determining the fatal outcome I'm sure, but for what its worth.....
Also, remember a .25 or .380 JHP may be a good compromise as far as lethality vs earsaving, relative to earsplitters like 357 or 45.
I could see a .22lr revolver, that gets rid of the reliability issues for the most part - as long as you are using quality .22lr ammo.
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I could see a .22lr revolver, that gets rid of the reliability issues for the most part - as long as you are using quality .22lr ammo.
Yeah I agree. And I recall those articles specifically stating 22 'revolver'. They were very specific.
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I am not here to say that the 22LR is the best.
All I am saying and probably many others feel the same way, like the Mossad, and other countries that there is a place for the 22LR in defensive operations as well as offensive.
It is lethal as “Iraqi vet” showed in the video much further than one can shoot accurate with the .22LR at least to 440 yrds by military standards.
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/ (http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/)
Israeli Mossad .22 LRS
An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism. It’s a beautiful evening and time for a stroll. As the terrorist steps out of his apartment his chest is peppered with a handful of .22 Long Rifle bullets that immediately end his terrorist career. The only thing that the local police find is a dead terrorist and a small pile of .22 LR brass casings sprinkled close to the deceased.
http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html (http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html)
Air Marshals in Training
Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action.
At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols.
http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html (http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html)
22 Bullets
And if you shoot a guy 22 times maybe somebody should’ve thought of shooting him in the head. Charly shoots people in the head.
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If noise is your biggest concern, I wouldn't worry about it. First, I really wouldn't recommend a less-effective lifesaving tool; defending your life is much more important than protecting your hearing. Second, a few gunshots aren't going to be that big of a deal. Some folks seem to be convinced that firing a gun indoors without hearing protection will leave you looking like a bystander at the bombing of a discotheque, with blood running out your ears and instant stone deafness. I've fired quite a few guns over the years without the benefit of hearing protection, such as when hunting, and my annual audiograms keep coming back satisfactory. If the internet rumors about hearing loss had merit, everyone who was ever a bit slow getting their earmuffs back on after a cease-fire at the range would be learning American Sign Language right now.
For what its worth, I've fired a 45 and believe it or not, a 30 06 indoors in HD situations, and I can tell you this: in both cases I fired only once and was 110% deaf for about a minute. They were 30 and 20 yrs ago. I think my hearing is getting worse now but it seemed fine over the years since then. Just anecdotal info.
This may be lame but my biggest concerns having those experiences, which involved a single perp, is
1) if I was confronted with more than one perp, how vulnerable I'd be during the period I wouldn't be able to hear a second perp coming through a window in another room or behind me
2) one of my dogs who is my child practically, is insanely sensitive to the home alarm, smoke detectors, any loud noises. And I'm afraid of how terrified she'd be and the damage to her hearing, if she was in the house during a shooting.
i know. Seriously lame. But anyone else worry about that. Or am I too attached to my dog?
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For serious work, where your life is on the line, ill take an earschplittenloudenboomer before I pick up a .22lr
And as for MDS's machete wielding maniac in a hotel room scenario... unless you TBox the bastard with 10 rounds from your dinky .22, he prolly aint stopping.
A mag dump in the head on an armed mover, in a public building... sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to go to me... :crazy: also shooting people in the head is usually scrutinized heavily in the aftermath of a shooting... I dont want to know what the lawyers and media will do if you do it 10 times at a sitting... they'll probably have some sort of anti gun orgasam or something.
2 or 3 9mm 40, or 45 cal JHP rounds through the COM should work nicely though... and if it doesent, why... there are 7 more ready to be sent.
Anyway, any of you boys familliar with the internet gun forum troll personality "GUNKID" ? (If not its worth a google search...)
Ive come across gunkid under several of his psudonyms over the years, mainly after his release from prison. Had allot of fun yanking his chain on perfect union, THR, and others...
This MDS cat reminds me of him...
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I had a 22/45 and while I found it to be utterly reliable, I would have never considered it for HD. The ammo itself was to blame for the misfires I had, but I suppose if I absolutely HAD to use .22, then it would be a double action revolver or dead-reliable semi-auto rifle in .22 Mag. Otherwise, there are much better choices out there. I also don't subscribe to the notion that the two extra seconds it takes to put on ear protection will get you killed-- if the threat is that close, you're either an idiot because you can see him and still chose to don ear pro versus shooting him or you were good as dead anyway because you never saw the guy.
Whatever you choose to use, the bottom line is you gotta run the thing until you know it inside and out. The mag not dropping free 100% of the time on my FNP was just an inconvenience until I did some drilling with it and found that it could get me killed if I had to reload fast. If OP has a .22 that he feels comfortable with, then so be it, but I would suggest something bigger. Personally, I'm going to shoot the machete-wielding intruder instead of letting him hack me up for the sake of preserving my hearing and saving neighbors from rounds that *might* miss or over penetrate.
For me and my girlfriend, I use a Mossberg 590 and she uses a Remmy 870, both loaded with Federal 00 buck with their Flite Control wad. I have patterned both guns at HD ranges and drill with them frequently. I chose the 870 for her because she has more control over it vs. a pistol, it's easier for her to chamber, and she can clear jams with it faster. Only in reloading does the pistol skills trump her 870.
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http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/ (http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/)
The “mouse gun” calibers (.22, .25 and .32), while easy to carry, have a very high failure rate as compared to the larger caliber cartridges. If the criminal is likely to be affected by a psychological stop (“Hey, I’m tired of getting shot, so I’ll stop.”), these rounds are as good as any others. I believe that’s why they compare favorably to the larger calibers in the statistic regarding the percentage of people stopped with one shot. Those are likely psychological stops rather than physical incapacitations.
While I agree any gun is better than no gun, I can’t advise you to carry pistols under .35 caliber. They work any many cases, but if you do happen to encounter a motivated attacker, they are far more likely to fail.
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http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/ (http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/)
"I collected data on nearly 2,000 shootings over the course of 10 years of research."
"While .22s are fun, and have and will be relied upon for defense, Greg’s research showed
them to be subpar when it comes to stopping fights against real adversaries."
"A bigger hole is statistically more likely to hit something vital than a smaller hole, all other factors being equal."
"The smaller-caliber rounds (.22, .25 and .32) had a failure rate roughly two to three times that of the larger-caliber rounds."
About the author: Greg Ellifritz is the full-time firearms and defensive-tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department and the president of Active Response Training. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a Master’s degree in Public Policy and Management and has been an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer’s Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached through his website at www.activeresponsetraining.net (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net).
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I am not here to say that the 22LR is the best.
All I am saying and probably many others feel the same way, like the Mossad, and other countries that there is a place for the 22LR in defensive operations as well as offensive.
It is lethal as “Iraqi vet” showed in the video much further than one can shoot accurate with the .22LR at least to 440 yrds by military standards.
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/ (http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/)
Israeli Mossad .22 LRS
An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism. It’s a beautiful evening and time for a stroll. As the terrorist steps out of his apartment his chest is peppered with a handful of .22 Long Rifle bullets that immediately end his terrorist career. The only thing that the local police find is a dead terrorist and a small pile of .22 LR brass casings sprinkled close to the deceased.
http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html (http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html)
Air Marshals in Training
Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action.
At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols.
http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html (http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html)
22 Bullets
And if you shoot a guy 22 times maybe somebody should’ve thought of shooting him in the head. Charly shoots people in the head.
Israeli assassins looking for a quiet tool to carry out wet work and air marshals trying to minimize the risk of damaging an airplane are apples and oranges compared to home defense.
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Israeli assassins looking for a quiet tool to carry out wet work and air marshals trying to minimize the risk of damaging an airplane are apples and oranges compared to home defense.
All I can say is that they needed to be highly effective, reliable and lethal.
Which is the best? They all are, it depends on the surroundings and your personal circumstances.
Here are some stats.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866)
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.
One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by
Massad Ayoob.
He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis.
.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%
vs
.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%
(From the article)
Conclusion: I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet.
There isn't one.
And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want.
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I'm going to buy a 22lr semi pistol anyway. it's going to be kept loaded in my handgun safe right next to my 9
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As I said earlier here, there are just too many variables for ANY studies to give a good recommendation.
Season of the year (in places other than tropical islands, of course): Cooler temps mean more clothing to protect the target. Many CCW in the Northern US carry different guns for different seasons to account for that.
Distance to target.
Experience of shooter.
Drugs/alcohol quantities in the target's system.
Body Mass Index of target. Big, heavy., muscle-bound guys being shot with a .22 will just get angrier!
Etc., Etc.
There are so many variables and combinations that I doubt that information has ever been collected, let alone analyzed.
Again, there is no perfect tool for a given task in all circumstances. Reading a study that shows a .22 pistol has the same effectiveness (statistically) for Home Defense as a 9mm or .45ACP is counter intuitive.
I would submit, if a .22lr is just as good as its big brothers, and a .22 is just as reliable, why does the entire LEO community of the US not carry .22's as their primary side arms?
When law enforcement switches to .22's, I might consider it. Otherwise, I think it's wise to trust what thousands of professions trust their own lives to every single day.
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I feel the biggest caliber that a homeowner can comfortable fire multiple shots in succession with is what should be used by any given person. At this point in time, the only thing my 110 lbs wife can fire comfortably is her mosquito. She is isn't yet comfortable shooting anything bigger so if she is not even comfortable shooting a .40 or my 10mm at the range under calm, controlled circumstances, I don't think I'd want her trying to use it in a real in home situation. I'd much rather her use what she is most comfortable with at this time. I'd rather her be confident with a smaller gun than shaky and uncomfortable with a larger caliber. Obviously .22 lr isn't the best self defense round, but I'd rather her get 1,2, or 3 rounds of .22 in a perp than zero with a 40 cal.
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Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?
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I feel the biggest caliber that a homeowner can comfortable fire multiple shots in succession with is what should be used by any given person. At this point in time, the only thing my 110 lbs wife can fire comfortably is her mosquito. She is isn't yet comfortable shooting anything bigger so if she is not even comfortable shooting a .40 or my 10mm at the range under calm, controlled circumstances, I don't think I'd want her trying to use it in a real in home situation. I'd much rather her use what she is most comfortable with at this time. I'd rather her be confident with a smaller gun than shaky and uncomfortable with a larger caliber. Obviously .22 lr isn't the best self defense round, but I'd rather her get 1,2, or 3 rounds of .22 in a perp than zero with a 40 cal.
You are correct.
Any gun is better than no gun.
Being able to fire accurate shots with the largest caliber you can reliably do it with is the most important aspect of using a firearm for HD.
In your wife's case, a 22lr might be the best choice.
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You are correct.
Any gun is better than no gun.
Being able to fire accurate shots with the largest caliber you can reliably do it with is the most important aspect of using a firearm for HD.
In your wife's case, a 22lr might be the best choice.
For now it is, but just as all things, with a little more practice I think she can become more comfortable with a bigger caliber and then I will feel better about her home defense options when I am not present. :thumbsup:
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Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?
I know a lot of people knock the mosquito on its reliability but we have found that if we use Remington viper ammo it really cut down the issues. We only had maybe 2 malfunctions in 100 rounds instead of the every other few rounds malfunction we were having with other ammo. I hated her gun until we can across the viper.
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For now it is, but just as all things, with a little more practice I think she can become more comfortable with a bigger caliber and then I will feel better about her home defense options when I am not present. :thumbsup:
A pistol caliber carbine would be perfect for her.
My wife is small bit she shoots my Ruger PC9 extremely well.
Ita a 9mm carbine that takes pistol magazines (Ruger P series)
Here's a video of some kid shooting one
Me Shooting The Ruger PC9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdsnBYJzYuM#)
If you can find them, they're a great little carbine.
I found one a couple years back at a gun show.
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A pistol caliber carbine would be perfect for her.
My wife is small bit she shoots my Ruger PC9 extremely well.
Ita a 9mm carbine that takes pistol magazines (Ruger P series)
Here's a video of some kid shooting one
Me Shooting The Ruger PC9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdsnBYJzYuM#)
If you can find them, they're a great little carbine.
I found one a couple years back at a gun show.
thats really good advice. ive actually been looking into these little bad boys. its a complete upper for a glock pistol that equipts it with a 16 inch barrel and a m4 style butt stock. id love to get this upper for my glock 20 and have a 10 mm carbine. the company says they do ship to hawaii and ive asked around about the legality about such an item in hawaii. so far i cant find any reason it wouldnt be legal. also it ships to your door and doesnt require registration. ive called them and 10mm barrels for these uppers are back ordered a few months so i have some time to scrape the funds together. its a little spendy for the base model but basically for about 500 more dollar i can turn my g20 into a carbine.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php (http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php)
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Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?
I'm sure this is not a surprise but my s&w 41 is as comfy and reliable as shooting an 'airgun' with my thumb and index finger. If there such a thing as a fat quad stacked maybe 52rd mag for it, that fit in the hollowed out fat grip, I might use it as a primary SD weapon; cause i think i could unload every round rapid fire into a bouncing golf ball at ten ft. :) But I'd want the hicap mag to make up for the lack in stopping power.
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I'm sure this is not a surprise but my s&w 41 is as comfy and reliable as shooting an 'airgun' with my thumb and index finger. If there such a thing as a fat quad stacked maybe 52rd mag for it, that fit in the hollowed out fat grip, I might use it as a primary SD weapon; cause i think i could unload every round rapid fire into a bouncing golf ball at ten ft. :) But I'd want the hicap mag to make up for the lack in stopping power.
It looks kind of similar in operation or style to the Ruger MK4 etc? Would you agree?
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It looks kind of similar in operation or style to the Ruger MK4 etc? Would you agree?
Well, I've never held one but I just googled the gun to remind myself what it looks like and I guess...maaaybe similar in appearance. I mean the 41s wooden grip is artwork and the square sharp angles on the slide n lower are quite different compared the to grip and round edges of the mk4. But I'm sure it shoots just as nicely!
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Well, I've never held one but I just googled the gun to remind myself what it looks like and I guess...maaaybe similar in appearance. I mean the 41s wooden grip is artwork and the square sharp angles on the slide n lower are quite different compared the to grip and round edges of the mk4. But I'm sure it shoots just as nicely!
Huh? Never held one but you say the pistol is comfy and reliable? A quad stacked magazine to fit in a hollowed out fat grip? Dude, do you have any idea of what you're talking about?
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Huh? Never held one but you say the pistol is comfy and reliable? A quad stacked magazine to fit in a hollowed out fat grip? Dude, do you have any idea of what you're talking about?
Lol. Dude...You really got me cracking up
:rofl:
Look at the quote from funtimes in my post....now read my post again....
make sense to you now?
K....
deep breath...
Wax on...Wax off...
Aaaand exhale...
Feel better?
:)
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Huh? Never held one but you say the pistol is comfy and reliable? A quad stacked magazine to fit in a hollowed out fat grip? Dude, do you have any idea of what you're talking about?
Oh....and...uhhh....before I said
'quad stacked magazine...."
I said 'if there were such a thing' ??
So that kinda explains the intentionally juvenile 'gun speak' that came afterwards?? Which was a cute way of saying the grip is large enough to fit four (quad) magazines in it side by side if it were hollowed it out a little.....??
OyYoiYOI!
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Looks like it's just moving a portion of the slide back, and not a whole slide, which is where I think most .22lr pistols fail at.
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The 41 is a simple blowback I think. Someone can correct me on this but I think its an unlocked breech blowback. Just the rear third of the upper assembly and its forward arms is what moves. Not the whole top 'slide' like the larger calibers which are locked breech recoil operated, I think.
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Any gun is better than no gun.
Amen to that pal!
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I use .22 easy to shoot for anyone. ..low recoil...easy follow up shots. I can prob shoot off 10rnds very accurate in short period. .22 at close range can be lethal
The choice of mob hitmen everywhere. Lol!
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If nothing else, I would think that reliability would be a more important factor than what the bullet can do or the noise. For me, I get more occasional issues with .22 caliber guns than with others, if any at all so I would definitely opt to have my Glock or pump shotgun handy and .22's as secondary if my loved ones or my life depended on it.
If it has to be .22 for HD, I would probably want a revolver handy first, anything is better than nothing though! If all I had was one of my .22's if something went down then ill be happy that I have it!
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If nothing else, I would think that reliability would be a more important factor than what the bullet can do or the noise. For me, I get more occasional issues with .22 caliber guns than with others, if any at all so I would definitely opt to have my Glock or pump shotgun handy and .22's as secondary if my loved ones or my life depended on it.
If it has to be .22 for HD, I would probably want a revolver handy first, anything is better than nothing though! If all I had was one of my .22's if something went down then ill be happy that I have it!
You are correct.
Reliability is the number one consideration in a home defense firearm.
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Some of this aside... I would probably carry my walther P22. That thing is so small!