2aHawaii

Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Topic started by: stangzilla on May 04, 2020, 01:13:11 PM

Title: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 04, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
helping a friend with a build and he didn't really know what optic to get.  its his first AR.
will be a defensive AR and something can take to the range.
choice between LPVO, red dot / holo sight, fixed power like a ACOG or prism scope.  saw this video and it made up my mind.  so we went with a red dot/ holo sight, might add a magnifier later.  reasoning is fast target acquisition, no need mess with eye relief, simple operation, large field of view
what's everyone's reasoning behind your choice of optics for your AR?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fblFz2vPlQ
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 04, 2020, 01:56:11 PM
iron sights dont need batteries and have no glass to break. People been using them out to 600 yards for decades
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: changemyoil66 on May 04, 2020, 02:05:28 PM
I use a SIG Romeo5. GOod price ($120 and $99 when on sale) and has auto on and off so you dont have to mess with pressing buttons to turn on.  As soon as you move it, it turns on.  Then no movement for 2 mins, it turns off by itself.

If for a SD , to me red dot would be the best.  LVPO at lower power can be OK, but then the pick up might take a little longer than a RDS.  Same with ACOG, the magnification at 10 yards wouldn't be better than a zero magnification RDS.  I've seen more and more guys with offset irons or RDS on their LVPO for this reason.

Unless he plans on getting into a gun fight an needing to shoot 100 yards+
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Jmoto808 on May 04, 2020, 02:10:43 PM
I think it truly depends on your budget, because cheap anything will fail you. Yes iron sights are great and people have used them successfully with minimal moving parts, but with technological improvements over the years, theres really no use to have irons as your primary optic unless you just enjoy the "old school" nostalgia. Eyes will change over the years and the ability to crank your image up to 6x or 8x will be beneficial in identifying threats or scouting potential areas.

Budget IMO matters with choice because you cant cheap out on a lpvo and it expect it to be as fast as a red dot with the same fov and forgiving eyebox. If this is a rifle you are relying on shtf or whatever and are on a tight budget, id reccomend any name brand red dot (eotech, leupold, etc) and get a reliable mount. Then u can always have irons as a backup . As far as acog goes, ive never truly been a fan, the eye relief is just impractical to me. As far as lpvo, main things to look for are, largest fov possible, true 1x (not 1.1 or 1.2), generous eyebox, daybright illumination,  a reticle you can use at 1x effectively, and durability. Unfortunately thatll cost you a pretty penny to check all the boxes. Best bet could be to find a used razor gen 2 1-8. Since the gen3 came out it should be reasonableish. Can also look at rhe old khales 1-6 or burris xtr2 is "ok". And then obv you have the atacr 1-8 and SB dualdot which is out of people's budget mostly. Also if it gives you more comfort you can also get a qd scalworks mount and then add low profile irons under.

As far as speed goes, practice is your only answer. Some will say red dot is faster, but if you practice enough, a quality lpvo with have negligle speed difference.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 04, 2020, 02:19:44 PM
already have BUIS.  that's a must have in my opinion
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Bota-CS1 on May 04, 2020, 02:25:40 PM
If he already has irons, get a light instead of an optic.  He’ll be prepared for any day or night defensive scenario with a light and irons.  Just my 2 cents. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 04, 2020, 02:34:09 PM
helping a friend with a build and he didn't really know what optic to get.  its his first AR.
will be a defensive AR and something can take to the range.
choice between LPVO, red dot / holo sight, fixed power like a ACOG or prism scope.  saw this video and it made up my mind.  so we went with a red dot/ holo sight, might add a magnifier later.  reasoning is fast target acquisition, no need mess with eye relief, simple operation, large field of view
what's everyone's reasoning behind your choice of optics for your AR?

SNIP
Overall, I don't think you can go wrong with a 1x red dot for someone's first AR.  Beyond the technical, practical, etc discussion, to me red dots are excellent for newer shooters since they are intuitive as well as fun.  It can avoid much of the frustration that many newer shooters experience on a casual setting (not in a carbine course).  I do certainly appreciate the discipline and skill needed with irons as well as importance to marksmanship in general. 

When I see JY in a video, I typically turn it off.  However, in this case he does have some good points about differences in IDing and marksmanship or hitting the target.  He also gives some context and rationale behind his choices.  Personally, I don't think I would be shooting anyone at 300 yards.  The "in your face" out to about 50-100 yards is more along the lines of what I envision, but certainly not the limit. 

Given the 200 yards context, my first choice of optics is a 1x red dot along with iron sights.  Ease and speed of use is primary consideration, which includes eye relief, forgiving head/eye positioning, etc.  Next is LPVO for similar considerations that JY mentioned.  I haven't used the LPVO nearly as much as 1x red dot, but I don't see a significant difference in the speed of use on 1x, especially with training (more shooting).  I may eventually try an offset RDS, but the LPVO is mostly a project gun as well as for testing out capabilities with match ammo. 

Personally, I don't own an 4x ACOG and probably won't.  I've shot a decent amount with ACOGs and I think I might change my mind if I were to use them more often, but I don't see them being an advantage over what I have on other guns. 

Good point about budget as mentioned above.  While I tend to be the "buy once, cry once" logic, I do very much understand that there are some who can't afford it as well as offerings that are less expensive than the "premium" products that perform very well.  That said, there's also a lot of crap out there and people trying to pass them off as "just as good as".  That's where I like to have personal experience with things, as well as depend on feedback from trusted friends and instructors. 

Also, if someone blows their wad on some awesome glass and then can't afford ammo, then no sense.  Gotta find a balance there as well. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: rklapp on May 04, 2020, 02:39:43 PM
Generally, you should spend more on a scope than you would on a monthly child support payment. (kidding)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Heavies on May 04, 2020, 05:57:16 PM
Been digging the new MRO.  One or two clicks to visible on, better than the PRO I had before, that needs about 7 clicks in one direction to have a daylight visible dot.   The MRO's switch has the off position in the middle of the dial, you turn left or right its on, one direction is dimmer, the other is brighter, middle is off.  It's light weight and small.  DD Fixed iron front and KAC flip rear aperture for longer range, or back up, if needed.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: sa594 on May 04, 2020, 06:40:15 PM
For me, EOTechs and Sig Romeos for a home defense gun, faster and easier for me to see in low light situations vs my front sight post....Everyone will have their own preferences
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Sheppard on May 05, 2020, 12:50:42 AM
Remeber, you can only shoot accurately at what you can see. why not spend the money and buy a quality LPVO. look no further than Vortex optics. quality glass. Near to true 1x. 30mm tube and easy on the wallet. their older PST viper 1-4x was awesome. now their 1-6x is even better sharing some of the attributes of the legendary Razor 1-6x. plus they offer a lifetime unconditional warranty! That alone warrants further inquiry. they really do stand behind their product. I follow this Youtuber....follow the links, he has some great video on this subject. for the purpose of close to intermediate range like sub 500 yards a 1-4x is awesome...1x will get you that fast acquisition for inside 25yds. 4x with a throw lever will quickly and easily reach out to 100yds. as for other gadgets on your AR like a canted RDS....forget about it. their is nothing that will make you a better shooter than spending time putting rounds down range. Also, look into the Colt 6920 OEM-2. so once you have your AR built, buy a lot of bullets and invest in your training. If you want to know how to save on Vortex Optics visit their site. If you need holsters for mags i can help you with that too.

https://youtu.be/RV0Jr3BUk14
https://youtu.be/ks0ix7jbaTY
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Bota-CS1 on May 05, 2020, 11:59:10 AM
All my defensive setups are centered around Eotechs and red dots.  Given the way the HRS is written surrounding the defensive use of a firearm where you’re going to be limited to your own four walls.  I don’t see the need for an LPVO since the LPVO’s main attribute is magnification and I don’t live in a McMansion with an open floor plan.  In a defensive scenario, it’s going to be up close and within a hallway, doorway, or interior room more than likely.   
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: changemyoil66 on May 05, 2020, 01:38:40 PM
All my defensive setups are centered around Eotechs and red dots.  Given the way the HRS is written surrounding the defensive use of a firearm where you’re going to be limited to your own four walls.  I don’t see the need for an LPVO since the LPVO’s main attribute is magnification and I don’t live in a McMansion with an open floor plan.  In a defensive scenario, it’s going to be up close and within a hallway, doorway, or interior room more than likely.

This ^^^.  But  EOTech is out of my price range.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 05, 2020, 02:17:16 PM
I like the big window of view with the EOtech, fast target acquisition, the ease of operation, the toughness of the optic, and the reticle
but it's expensive.  so we decided to go with the next best thing:  Sightmark Ultrashot M-spec reflex sight
its very durable, big window like the EOtech, less expensive.  looks like an EOtech minus the price tag. reticle is like the EOtech: crosshair, circle, red dot.  I like that reticle.
hopefully I have time to build the lower this week, then just wait for the optic to arrive, and wait for Kokohead to reopen so we can test it.   :geekdanc:
I like the LPVO too.  maybe we will save that for my friend's next AR.   >:D

Quote
Featuring a digital switch control with six variable brightness levels for daytime use and six settings in night vision mode, the new Sightmark Ultra Shot M-Spec Reflex Sight is built for adaptation to any shooting environment. Its magnesium alloy housing offers exceptional durability along with a battery life of up to 1,000 hours of superior functionality. Constructed with a protective hood, its shock-proof frame shields the M-Spec from impact and recoil up to a .50 caliber round. Fully submersible up to 40 feet of water, the Ultra Shot M-Spec is equipped with scratch resistant dual-pane glass and a parallax-corrected lens system, allowing shooters to sight accurately from 10 yards to infinity.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC65h2p2TYE&t=674s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCqfcTO749o&t=16s
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 05, 2020, 03:05:05 PM
All my defensive setups are centered around Eotechs and red dots.  Given the way the HRS is written surrounding the defensive use of a firearm where you’re going to be limited to your own four walls.  I don’t see the need for an LPVO since the LPVO’s main attribute is magnification and I don’t live in a McMansion with an open floor plan.  In a defensive scenario, it’s going to be up close and within a hallway, doorway, or interior room more than likely.
The EoTech EXPS 3-0 is my current favorite.  It's been on the AR that I use most for training/classes and has been used and not quite abused.  Almost abused though. 

I like the big window of view with the EOtech, fast target acquisition, the ease of operation, the toughness of the optic, and the reticle
but it's expensive.  so we decided to go with the next best thing:  Sightmark Ultrashot M-spec reflex sight
its very durable, big window like the EOtech, less expensive.  looks like an EOtech minus the price tag. reticle is like the EOtech: crosshair, circle, red dot.  I like that reticle.
hopefully I have time to build the lower this week, then just wait for the optic to arrive, and wait for Kokohead to reopen so we can test it.   :geekdanc:
I like the LPVO too.  maybe we will save that for my friend's next AR.   >:D
Cool.  Never heard of that sight.  I know Holosun has a couple of sights with the "donut of death" reticle.  One instructor that I've taken a few classes with has one on his "work" carbine and it seems to have held up just fine, or at least it has been on that gun for a while. 

My LPVO has been fun to test with, even going through a carbine course with it.  I very much go see the value of an optic like that, but it is not without downsides.  Don't envision it replacing the AR with the EoTech, but they each have their pros/applications. While not really for what I envision, still good to shoot with both and get to know for myself.  Once the range opens back up, I'll see if we can meet up one day.  Have a bunch of ammo that I want to test with the LPVO setup. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 05, 2020, 03:12:33 PM
Recently, eotech 512s were on sale. Somewhere around 400. I even think palmetto had them sub 400$. Dunno if its still goin on or not, but eotechs suck for me. My eyes cant see the reticle in bright daylight.

Aimpoint aco is decent. If your friend cant afford that, maybe a holosun, get the 500 "military grade" or titanium version.  Way better than the 400 series. Gives you options and more robustness for only 50-100 bucks more. Or the minimim id trust is the  primary arms advance micro dot with rotary knob. I must say this feels more robust than the romeo5.

All above have atleast 30k battery life. Some less or more depending what reticle you use and brightness, but you can look up the specs on that.


Ive owned or own h2, mro, rmr, h1, t1, pa advan mrds, romeo 5, PRO, and some holosuns.


Lately i been wanting to switch to etch reticles. I like the whole "if battery dies, i still have a reticle" idea. I also have a2 fsb on my go to uppers. I feel confident enough to use just that at 15 yards or in and hit a man size target.

All that said and done. Why not use a handgun or shotty for home? I think id like to use birdshot
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 05, 2020, 03:15:29 PM
Oh look at the holosun 510c.

Opticsplanet has them with riser and ADM mount. Use a code to get 5% off. Or whatever.

Alabama arsenal has a vid on it too. Since your into big window optics
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 05, 2020, 03:20:52 PM
The EoTech EXPS 3-0 is my current favorite.  It's been on the AR that I use most for training/classes and has been used and not quite abused.  Almost abused though. 
Cool.  Never heard of that sight.  I know Holosun has a couple of sights with the "donut of death" reticle.  One instructor that I've taken a few classes with has one on his "work" carbine and it seems to have held up just fine, or at least it has been on that gun for a while. 

My LPVO has been fun to test with, even going through a carbine course with it.  I very much go see the value of an optic like that, but it is not without downsides.  Don't envision it replacing the AR with the EoTech, but they each have their pros/applications. While not really for what I envision, still good to shoot with both and get to know for myself.  Once the range opens back up, I'll see if we can meet up one day.  Have a bunch of ammo that I want to test with the LPVO setup.

Holosun was also an option, but went with the Sightmark.  we'll see how it shoots.  I think they are both LED light system and not holograph like EOtech.  LED supposed to be more clear to look at than holosight. 


Recently, eotech 512s were on sale. Somewhere around 400. I even think palmetto had them sub 400$. Dunno if its still goin on or not, but eotechs suck for me. My eyes cant see the reticle in bright daylight.

Aimpoint aco is decent. If your friend cant afford that, maybe a holosun, get the 500 "military grade" or titanium version.  Way better than the 400 series. Gives you options and more robustness for only 50-100 bucks more. Or the minimim id trust is the  primary arms advance micro dot with rotary knob. I must say this feels more robust than the romeo5.

All above have atleast 30k battery life. Some less or more depending what reticle you use and brightness, but you can look up the specs on that.


Ive owned or own h2, mro, rmr, h1, t1, pa advan mrds, romeo 5, PRO, and some holosuns.


Lately i been wanting to switch to etch reticles. I like the whole "if battery dies, i still have a reticle" idea. I also have a2 fsb on my go to uppers. I feel confident enough to use just that at 15 yards or in and hit a man size target.

All that said and done. Why not use a handgun or shotty for home? I think id like to use birdshot

he already has a Glock19 for HD too.  just wanted an AR for backup, or vice versa.

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 05, 2020, 03:30:27 PM
Ah i see nice nice. And yea, you are correct led is clearer than holo sights.

If eotechs had better battery life and i could actually see them in bright daylight, i would prob buy them.

Oh yeah i forgot to mention. I did have an xps 2-2 on my very first ar. It was only useable to me at 5pm - 6am lol. Tried numerous times at kokohead and couldnt see jack shit with it.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 05, 2020, 03:33:34 PM
Recently, eotech 512s were on sale. Somewhere around 400. I even think palmetto had them sub 400$. Dunno if its still goin on or not, but eotechs suck for me. My eyes cant see the reticle in bright daylight.

Aimpoint aco is decent. If your friend cant afford that, maybe a holosun, get the 500 "military grade" or titanium version.  Way better than the 400 series. Gives you options and more robustness for only 50-100 bucks more. Or the minimim id trust is the  primary arms advance micro dot with rotary knob. I must say this feels more robust than the romeo5.

All above have atleast 30k battery life. Some less or more depending what reticle you use and brightness, but you can look up the specs on that.


Ive owned or own h2, mro, rmr, h1, t1, pa advan mrds, romeo 5, PRO, and some holosuns.


Lately i been wanting to switch to etch reticles. I like the whole "if battery dies, i still have a reticle" idea. I also have a2 fsb on my go to uppers. I feel confident enough to use just that at 15 yards or in and hit a man size target.

All that said and done. Why not use a handgun or shotty for home? I think id like to use birdshot
Regarding not being able to pick up the EoTech reticle in daylight, are you color blind? Or the condition where folks have a difficult time differentiating certain colors?  A friend had it were red and brown was very similar, so the red reticle wasn't that easy for him to pick up.  I wondered if a green reticle might be easier to pick up for him  EoTech for my vision (astigmatism) is awesome, but it's not like Aimpoint is bad.  It just bursts a little, which isn't a big deal.  Just something that I noticed.

I had similar thoughts on the etched reticle or optics that have the sunlight power, like some of the Trijicon optics.  I thought about the Meprolight at one time, but didn't get around to trying it. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 05, 2020, 03:35:05 PM
Holosun was also an option, but went with the Sightmark.  we'll see how it shoots.  I think they are both LED light system and not holograph like EOtech.  LED supposed to be more clear to look at than holosight. 

I actually have more Aimpoints than EoTechs, even though EoTech is my current favorite.  It's not like I don't like Aimpoints.  They are very solid for sure.  If I bought a Holosun, I'd have to get another upper.   ;D
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 05, 2020, 04:17:51 PM
Yup you nailed it. But my color blindness is only green and orange. I mean i can tell the difference between a lime and orange by color alone, but if its 2 shades the are very similar i cannot. Especially if its lil dots that form a number. I had that for my customs test. You can find the test online. Im also cross eye dominant. Which is why i prefer red dots over scopes. But a month or 2 ago, i was fucking around with my optics and if i cant the rifle enough with a 1.8" or higher mount, i can use my lpvo with my dominant eye lol. And my acog!!! So i been switching my mounts to 1.93 or 2.1 (risers i had laying around with high rings or medium)

Ive never tried a green eotech cause idk anyone who has it, i had the red version. It was more like a washout. During dusk i can see it outside at buildings and such, like maybe 6 or 7pm as of today. But if its like noon or 2 or 3pm at kokohead and im at the rifle bench shooting. I just cannot. Ive tried the 512 or 518, dont remember and it was a bit better. I sold the eotech to my friend, he used it on his duty rifle then switched to an lpvo. Sat in his safe for prob 2 years then gave it back to me. In return i gave him a mrds. Then the reticle was half gone, on a new battery. Emailed eotech and they took care of it free of charge.  Tried it again and still washout for me. Sat in my safe, then the whole eotech buy back happened. Got my refund.

Bought an h2. Or the mro. I cant remember.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 05, 2020, 05:03:07 PM
Yup you nailed it. But my color blindness is only green and orange. I mean i can tell the difference between a lime and orange by color alone, but if its 2 shades the are very similar i cannot. Especially if its lil dots that form a number. I had that for my customs test. You can find the test online. Im also cross eye dominant. Which is why i prefer red dots over scopes. But a month or 2 ago, i was fucking around with my optics and if i cant the rifle enough with a 1.8" or higher mount, i can use my lpvo with my dominant eye lol. And my acog!!! So i been switching my mounts to 1.93 or 2.1 (risers i had laying around with high rings or medium)

Ive never tried a green eotech cause idk anyone who has it, i had the red version. It was more like a washout. During dusk i can see it outside at buildings and such, like maybe 5pm as of today. But if its like noon or 2 or 3pm at kokohead and im at the rifle bench shooting. I just cannot. Ive tried the 512 or 518, dont remember and it was a bit better. I sold the eotech to my friend, he used it on his duty rifle then switched to an lpvo. Sat in his safe for prob 2 years then gave it back to me. In return i gave him a mrds. Then the reticle was half gone, on a new battery. Emailed eotech and they took care of it free of charge.  Tried it again and still washout for me. Sat in my safe, then the whole eotech buy back happened. Got my refund.

Bought an h2. Or the mro. I cant remember.
Ahh, gotcha.  I had one coworker that was where red and grey were very similar.  He could usually tell difference if the were apart or another color was in between.  Our office used red markups on a grey background.  One day I was reviewing what I had marked up and he was like "I can't see anything".  I totally thought he was messing with me.  That's when he finally shared that he had difficulty telling red and grey apart.  He wasn't comfortable telling people that, so he just sort of guessed at times.  I've actually met quite a number of people who are color indifferent (for lack of better term). 

I recall there was a dot optic where you could switch between red and green.  I know I've seen green with Holosun and I believe EoTech came out with one somewhat recently.  I recall seeing a review on YouTube.  Either MrGunsngear or Garand Thumb.  For me, I've been using red FO front sight for handguns, but I've been wanting to try green.  I was shooting friend's gun with the Truglo TFO red front and green rear.  I swear the green was practically burning my eyes.  Haha.

How the human eyes and vision works has always been interesting to me.  Cones, rods, peripheral vision, etc.  How one's vision works or changes going from daylight to night is another.  The Golden hour.  With the riser, were you having trouble seeing when your head position is more craned forward (the Magpul tactical scorpion)?  Where your eyes are sort of as if you were looking upward at the ceiling? 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 05, 2020, 05:20:22 PM
Its all good. Yeah same problem as your coworker, if its together and close in color i cant tell the difference haha.  Actually funny thing is i feel more comfortable with my head more straight up. For the longest time i have neck problems. Prob from past fights, car accidents. Ive been in alot of accidents. I was young and dumb. 4 accidents airbags deployed lol. 1 i was hanging of tantaulus, no bs literally. There was no ground under my driverside front ans rear tire. Yea you can guess what i was doing. I usually sleep on the floor, no pillow, just a once folded towel and carpet. And to me thats a good nights rest. I dont feel anything except tightness between my spine and right shoulder blade. Anyways, it feels rather comfortable. I never shot prone and ill keep my msr/spr with low rings, im gonna make it a range gun. Id trust it for shtf tho.

I've yet to shoot it with these higher mounts/ riser mount combos cause of covid19 and always working weekends, bur i feel i can get use to it quickly. Plus i can see over my otal! Before it was half way into my red dot, but it clears now haha. Win win situation. I had no real reason for it, bought it cause it looked coooooool. I just remember i bought it from a tax return 3 or 4 years ago. It was a super good deal too. Like 400 shipped with something else i needed and it gave me free shipping. Back then i think it was 500+.

A decent laser is good for home defense too. Make the guy think twice hahaha jk. I recently bought a bcm mk2 upper. So its gonna find itself on there now. Along with acog and rmr. The laser will be my "regular buis"
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 06, 2020, 12:56:16 PM
changed my mind.  going with the Holosun 510c  :thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAxLFlGluWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkidkACagoc&t=301s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZh5ZYl3FwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VpJ5eaqqDU
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 06, 2020, 04:35:08 PM
Nice choice. I love alabama arsenal's reciew the most. It appeared a pellet hit the brightness setting buttons. So i can only make an assumption, that even without the titanium shroud it would handle pretty good as well.

If you dont already know, holosun uses grade 5 titanium for all their titanium products. Atleast a rep told me that.

Its several steps above 7075t6 in almost every way possible. Had to google the properties of both and if the rep is telling me the truth that it is grade 5, then damn pretty strong shit compared to 6061 or 7075 products that costs twice as much. Internally i cant say if its "battle ready" cause im no genius when it comes to that.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 06, 2020, 05:08:53 PM
Nice choice. I love alabama arsenal's reciew the most. It appeared a pellet hit the brightness setting buttons. So i can only make an assumption, that even without the titanium shroud it would handle pretty good as well.

If you dont already know, holosun uses grade 5 titanium for all their titanium products. Atleast a rep told me that.

Its several steps above 7075t6 in almost every way possible. Had to google the properties of both and if the rep is telling me the truth that it is grade 5, then damn pretty strong shit compared to 6061 or 7075 products that costs twice as much. Internally i cant say if its "battle ready" cause im no genius when it comes to that.

i'm sure it will be more than durable for what I need it for.  but good to know it is a tough optic.  the battery life is great too.   :shaka:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 10, 2020, 02:16:00 PM
I realize red dots and holos are for large target use, not precision.  My limited trial of a cheaper Sightmark on an accurate air rifle yielded worse groups than I get with a Williams aperture.

A temporary lashup with an EOTech 512 showed the SM had a big parallax problem, the EOT only a little if forced by extreme off axis head placement.   I was under the impression they were very tolerant of eye position.   The SM and EOT are clearly different tech, but I wonder if the parallax issues track with the design and are unavoidable on those with the same layout?

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 10, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
changed my mind.  going with the Holosun 510c  :thumbsup:
Those seemed to be advertisements for the Holosun, not comparisons with an EOTech.   
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: tim808 on May 10, 2020, 05:49:48 PM
Op,
Good choice on going red dot for hd and range fun.  Easy to acquire target

I just use regular iron sights for hd ars. 

I tend to lean to lpvo for range use and field use ars. 

I’m think I’m going to try a red dot too (and buis) for field use to shave a little weight off the Ar (And also lose 50 lbs)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 12, 2020, 05:46:11 AM
Eveything will have some sort of parallax. Anything that goes through lenses, especially curved/angled lenses and thick lenses. I believe eotech had the least amount tho compared to the t1, which was 1 reason why it won the first contract with the military many many many years ago. But the t2 has a more angular lens that helps with dot blurriness and parallax (supposedly). I sold my h1 and got an h2. And yes i can see the difference in the angle. The dot looks like a dot ;  not a comma on both to me So cant help you there . Nor have a tried a parallax comparison. So 🤷‍♂️

Wise men company did a comparison between hs510 and eotech 512 or 518, i forget. Of course thats just 1 guy. So sample size is small, but others on youtube also have.  Consesus that i have seen are people are switching to holosun due to cost/ battery life/ battery type/ reticle option/ durability(seems similar on both). The only ones who i have watched who chooses eotechs are eotech die hard fans. They dont even have an aimpoint, which has been proven to be 1 of the best out there. But just the battery life and type alone, ill take a holosun. Only downside is that you need a tool to take batery out of the 510. I think they are gonna make a "qd" type battery compartment latch, but dont quote me on that.

There are some people who hit 300 yards (no magnifier) and up to 500 yards (magnified) with red dots. I aint one of them haha. Im comfortable up to 200 (maybe 300) yards unmagnified tho. I can see people up to 500 yards away with my naked eye. I wish kokohead would put those 300 and 400 yard targets back up so i could try.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 12, 2020, 08:48:53 AM
Eveything will have some sort of parallax. Anything that goes through lenses, especially curved/angled lenses and thick lenses. I believe eotech had the least amount tho compared to the t1, which was 1 reason why it won the first contract with the military many many many years ago. But the t2 has a more angular lens that helps with dot blurriness and parallax (supposedly). I sold my h1 and got an h2. And yes i can see the difference in the angle. The dot looks like a dot ;  not a comma on both to me So cant help you there . Nor have a tried a parallax comparison. So 🤷‍♂️

Wise men company did a comparison between hs510 and eotech 512 or 518, i forget. Of course thats just 1 guy. So sample size is small, but others on youtube also have.  Consesus that i have seen are people are switching to holosun due to cost/ battery life/ battery type/ reticle option/ durability(seems similar on both). The only ones who i have watched who chooses eotechs are eotech die hard fans. They dont even have an aimpoint, which has been proven to be 1 of the best out there. But just the battery life and type alone, ill take a holosun. Only downside is that you need a tool to take batery out of the 510. I think they are gonna make a "qd" type battery compartment latch, but dont quote me on that.

There are some people who hit 300 yards (no magnifier) and up to 500 yards (magnified) with red dots. I aint one of them haha. Im comfortable up to 200 (maybe 300) yards unmagnified tho. I can see people up to 500 yards away with my naked eye. I wish kokohead would put those 300 and 400 yard targets back up so i could try.

this AR with the Holosun will be for up close up to under 100 yards. I have a different AR for further out. eventually I want to get one more optic for in between like a LPVO, although I already have a LPVO optic but I want to upgrade it. a man can't live with just 1 AR   ;)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 12, 2020, 04:33:06 PM
I feel ya stang. 1 ar is just pointless.  But depending on how i feel i may sell all my ar15s and pick up all shottys! Haha. I could prob get up to 9 shottys (prob 870s and 500s)

 As much as this sound bad or good depending on your pov.



I want this new bill to pass. 2k per month stimulus checks. Itll be extra money for me. Thats very selfish of me saying that tho. I do feel bad for the unemployed. I hope everyone gets their job back soon. Like have a slow economic growth for a few months while everyone has a job again.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 12, 2020, 06:29:45 PM
this AR with the Holosun will be for up close up to under 100 yards. I have a different AR for further out. eventually I want to get one more optic for in between like a LPVO, although I already have a LPVO optic but I want to upgrade it. a man can't live with just 1 AR   ;)
I want to take this course for “extended range carbine” that I’ve been eyeing for a while. It’s end of this month and on the east coast. No traveling for me by then. I would shoot my LPVO. It seems like a popular class, so hopefully will be offered again. The group I’ve been shooting with locally also has been trying to setup something with longer distances mixed in. All these plans were ramping up just prior to this pandemic though.

If I got into rolling my own ammo, I would expand to a 6.something caliber to mix in. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: GlockNewb on May 12, 2020, 08:26:40 PM
Red-dots for me, it’s difficult to justify SD shooting beyond 50 yds, especially in Hawaii. The InRangeTV video convinced me of my choice (see 6:15 of the video) —>
https://youtu.be/_y77fVM40mI

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 13, 2020, 11:35:17 AM
this AR with the Holosun will be for up close up to under 100 yards. I have a different AR for further out. eventually I want to get one more optic for in between like a LPVO, although I already have a LPVO optic but I want to upgrade it. a man can't live with just 1 AR   ;)
I hear you.

Were I to overcome my firearms phobia, one AR in 7.62mm with large optic and one 5.56mm for less than 300 yds would seem to be good.  The 5.56 could either be holo sights or irons, I know I can hit 300+ yards easy with an aperture sight, 500 when i was 18.  50+ years later, hitting at 500 might be an issue with irons.   No experiences with 5.56mm at that range.  The 7.62mm is a known quantity.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Influence on May 13, 2020, 01:07:11 PM
For a pure defensive rifle that would see range use from time to time, I’d personally be using an RDS and grab a pair of binoculars or a spotting scope to check groupings since Koko Head is limited to100 yards.  For hard use, I trust aimpoint the most but like the eotech reticle.  I’m also a fan of Holosun for a more budgetary rds.  I think they’ve made their mark in the market and have proven to be fairly rugged.

That being said, I’m in the process of wanting to build a shtf rifle.  I’ll be putting an LVPO on it and am contemplating a top or offset mounted mrds.  For that type of build, I’m looking for something that is reliable, great at 1x, clear glass and daylight bright.  Money no object, I’d probably be looking at a Kahles K16i, Nightforce ATACR, or Gen III razor.  At around $1,000, I’d be looking at a used Razor Gen II E, maybe a a trijicon credo 1-6 sfp, or others in that range.  At around $500-600, I’d be looking at the Steiner p4xi, vortex viper pst gen II 1-6, and the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-8 or 1-10.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 13, 2020, 01:37:27 PM
For a pure defensive rifle that would see range use from time to time, I’d personally be using an RDS and grab a pair of binoculars or a spotting scope to check groupings since Koko Head is limited to100 yards.  For hard use, I trust aimpoint the most but like the eotech reticle.  I’m also a fan of Holosun for a more budgetary rds.  I think they’ve made their mark in the market and have proven to be fairly rugged.

That being said, I’m in the process of wanting to build a shtf rifle.  I’ll be putting an LVPO on it and am contemplating a top or offset mounted mrds.  For that type of build, I’m looking for something that is reliable, great at 1x, clear glass and daylight bright.  Money no object, I’d probably be looking at a Kahles K16i, Nightforce ATACR, or Gen III razor.  At around $1,000, I’d be looking at a used Razor Gen II E, maybe a a trijicon credo 1-6 sfp, or others in that range.  At around $500-600, I’d be looking at the Steiner p4xi, vortex viper pst gen II 1-6, and the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-8 or 1-10.
Money no object LPVO? :hmm:  ;D

Add:
S&B Short Dot (and other options, depending on availability)
US Optics
Premier

Kahles and Nightforce already on your list.  Leupold has good options as well. 

For SHTF, weight comes to mind for me.  I haven't had my LPVO setup that long, but it's heavy, or at least heavier than any of my 1x RDS setups.  Only shot the LPVO setup once in a class, but it was noticeably heavier.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Influence on May 13, 2020, 03:05:12 PM
Money no object LPVO? :hmm:  ;D

Add:
S&B Short Dot (and other options, depending on availability)
US Optics
Premier

Kahles and Nightforce already on your list.  Leupold has good options as well. 

For SHTF, weight comes to mind for me.  I haven't had my LPVO setup that long, but it's heavy, or at least heavier than any of my 1x RDS setups.  Only shot the LPVO setup once in a class, but it was noticeably heavier.

Indeed, the whole build has me to the point of paralysis currently with both the rifle and the optic.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a money is no object budget and will likely do a Gen II Razor or some type of red dot with a QD magnifier
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 13, 2020, 04:37:01 PM
For me and my old eyes I'm contemplating between the primary arms GLX 2x or the Swampfox blade. Need something with an adjustable diopter...also fan of the ACSS reticle so kinda leaning more towards the PA GLX....not too sure about the Blades BRC and worried it may throw me off in a CQB situation. The rest of my ARs have a LPVO of various makes and power
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: spicynoodle_1 on May 13, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
All my rifles are set up for self/home defense situations. Besides the much added weight of LPVOs versus a RDS or holo, I feel I will not need them in a self defense situation. I wont be engaging any targets outside of 25yds, let alone needing 4, 6, or even 8x magnification. I have tried it, just dont like it. Just my humble opinion. In fact, I hope I will never need to use my firearms to have to defend my family and property. Because that would mean I'm in a shitty situation. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 13, 2020, 07:46:48 PM
Drck1000

Add: steiner t5xi
         Zeiss
         Nightforce nxs. Since you already mentioned atacr

Im suprised no one said acogs.

I have an acog and offset rmr currently (contemplating offset t1 or h2 so i can change battery without removing the damn sight.) This mounted on chf spikes upper, barrel is fn stamped. With a good ol quad rail , a2 fsb. Larue mbt 2 flat trigger. This will prob be my shtf rifle.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 13, 2020, 09:22:23 PM
I like my simple ACOG TA31
I wouldn't hesitate to use my service rifle scope either a Vortex PST 1-4x. Clicks are repeatable.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 14, 2020, 08:27:48 AM
Indeed, the whole build has me to the point of paralysis currently with both the rifle and the optic.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a money is no object budget and will likely do a Gen II Razor or some type of red dot with a QD magnifier
I hear ya.  The price of the ATACR caused some paralysis for me.  I was initially looking in the 500-1000 ish price range.  Then got into the higher range.  Then the logic of well, if I'm spending 1000, 1500 is within range.  And so on. . . Once I had my mind set on the ATACR, it took me a bit to fully commit, as well as naively trying to find a sale on NF.  I was seriously close to going with the Gen II Razor, but sort of had my mind set and would've been wondering "what if" had I gone that route.  During that time, my gun funds went up, so that helped the decision to go with the ATACR.  Still wasn't a "money is no object" budget, but I didn't want the "what if" questions tainting my enjoyment of the ATACR.  And so far, I've been fully happy with it. 

Drck1000

Add: steiner t5xi
         Zeiss
         Nightforce nxs. Since you already mentioned atacr

Im suprised no one said acogs.

I have an acog and offset rmr currently (contemplating offset t1 or h2 so i can change battery without removing the damn sight.) This mounted on chf spikes upper, barrel is fn stamped. With a good ol quad rail , a2 fsb. Larue mbt 2 flat trigger. This will prob be my shtf rifle.
I've shot Zeiss on bolt guns.  Very nice glass.  I don't recall seeing them having 1-6 or 1-8x.  A shooting buddy had lots of good things to say about his Steiner 1-4.  He was on this board, but had PCS'ed away prior to me venturing into LPVOs.  I was very interested, especially for the price range (could find on sale in the 400-500ish range), but I wanted more than the 4x. 

The NF NXS actually was the scope that expanded my budget range from the initial 500-1000.  Then once I got into research about the NXS, got drawn to the ATACR and eventually sold on it.  The more forgiving eyebox of the ATACR was one of the major deciding points. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 14, 2020, 08:34:35 AM
All my rifles are set up for self/home defense situations. Besides the much added weight of LPVOs versus a RDS or holo, I feel I will not need them in a self defense situation. I wont be engaging any targets outside of 25yds, let alone needing 4, 6, or even 8x magnification. I have tried it, just dont like it. Just my humble opinion. In fact, I hope I will never need to use my firearms to have to defend my family and property. Because that would mean I'm in a shitty situation.
For a defensive carbine, I agree.  I wouldn't envision needing to shoot in defense out beyond 50 yards, even less for 100 yards.  Not to say that I wouldn't envision a scenario, just not realistic in my mind.  That said, I was interested in the capabilities of the platform in general (both rifle and higher quality ammo), which was a big consideration for me venturing into the LPVO. 

Totally hear ya on the personal preference.  That's huge.  I am very much one who has to try for myself to see for myself.  Yeah, use of a firearm generally means I'm in a "shitty situation".  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

For me and my old eyes I'm contemplating between the primary arms GLX 2x or the Swampfox blade. Need something with an adjustable diopter...also fan of the ACSS reticle so kinda leaning more towards the PA GLX....not too sure about the Blades BRC and worried it may throw me off in a CQB situation. The rest of my ARs have a LPVO of various makes and power
For old(er) eyes, I've been told red dots really help over magnified scopes due to ease of picking up the dot over a crosshair style reticle.  I've been feeling the effects of aging eyes recently, but mostly with handgun shooting and the front sight.  At least for defensive situations where speed is at a premium over uber precision like say for a precision rifle. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 14, 2020, 10:35:17 AM
Eveything will have some sort of parallax. Anything that goes through lenses, especially curved/angled lenses and thick lenses.
As I wrote:  I got tighter groups with iron sights than the Sightmark.  And, I really, really tried to use the same cheekweld each shot to minimize head movement exaggerating parallax.

Though, I was under the impression red dots were intended for fast acquisition and shooting, but parallax of any amount will degrade that ability.  Only tube type red dot I ever tried was a Primary Arms M4 clone.  Never got to shoot it much before the windage stopped working.  The size of the thing gave me the impression an illuminated reticle LPVO would be just as easy and no less an encumbrance sitting up there..

That particular red dot worked to hit the target, just very far from a precision device when aperture sights produce tighter groups.  It sits in a cabinet now.

I did temprarily attach it to an 2240 air pistol to see what the red dot on a handgun was all about.   It worked, but was a bitch to convert my aiming from years of open sights.  Too large, of course.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 14, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
I guess you could say parallax will degrade your precision at shooting a target.   But at 50 yards or in (even 100 and in) , id say yes, even with the worse parallax it would be faster than irons, as you dont have to line up 2 things (rear aperature, front post). 

Also if were in a weird ass position, firing on your side under a car, or something, and you cannot get a good cheek weld to line up your front and rear sight, what would you do vs having a red dot and maybe 1 or 2 inches from your poa to poi? No hostages in that scenario. LOL. I believe all optics were made so youd only have 1 point of AIM/ reference to shoot (put the dot, crosshair what have you) on your target.  Sure there may be minimal shift from poa to poi. Better than nothing DEPENDING on the situation at hand.

Dont quote me on this, (i saw this on a video where someone tested parallax with eotech, holosuns, t1 etc.) I mean he tested like 10-20 different red dots. Anyways, with aimpoints i think the parallqx only affected less rhan 2 inches at 100 yards. Thats sort of minute for a man sized target. And that was with live fire. I cant speak for the PA m4 clone tho. I was just researching holosuns at the moment.

Everyone is different, maybe you can shoot faster/ very well with peep sights, aperatures. But i cannot compared to a red dot.

By no means, im saying the miltary is the gold standard, but if you just google or youtube and spec ops training, from breaching to sniper training , anything except basic training, everyone will run some sort of optic. Even 3 gun, when i watch, everyone has an optic. Lpvo for long range, offset rds. The transition to a rds is faster than turning down the zoom. (I think miculek says that too) Even law enforcement in the mainland are running rds on pistols. Not all departments, just some. My friend is and he lives in the middle of nowhere georgia. Its faster i think?


Lpvos are great, dont get me wrong, i have 1 accupower.  In fact i went through 3.and a p4xi and a leupy VXR's 1.25-4 german 4, and circle fire dot. I do not like the mere size of it. I would choose a 1lbs acog over a .5oz 1-4. (Major exaggeration, but kinda hard to explain for my preference) i kept getting them and selling them. Kept on takin losses over an over again.. So i said fuck it already, im not going to sell my last 1. Cause i know ill get another 1 again. So i made a special ar15 just for that scope. Hardly shot it tho.

Honestly speaking, if i had time to aim and take my time on that trigger. 100 yards or more, id take a scope indefinitely. If i was in iraq id take my acog and offset red dot. But i dont wanna run anymore so you will never find me there lol


Edit: maybe im just trying to say speed is sometimes more of a factor than a super precise shot. I can put holes on the bullseye with red dots at 100 yards if i take my time. My co workers and friends can back me up on that as they were spotting for me.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 14, 2020, 07:59:20 PM
Mebbe it is like automatic transmissions vs. manuals.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 14, 2020, 08:17:59 PM
Haha sorta. Some just works better for others.

I can drive both tho. My friend taught me to shift without a clutch.

Fwiw ive tried rds on a glock. I cant get the hang of it. Alrhough ive tried less than 150 rounds or so. Ill stick to irons for pistols 🙃👍
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 16, 2020, 10:05:34 PM
The holosun 503 is really great bang for the buck. Probably the cheapest red dot I would ever recommend for heavy use. Ended up selling it to a friend who needed a new red dot and got myself a eotech xps2 and a couple aimpoints for cheap.

Recently I acquired a Wolf PSU 1x/4x which uses the same or similar concept as the elcan spectre DR. I like it. It has great glass, rangefinder reticle, really wide field of view (about 2ft shy of a acog ta31) and it holds the same point of impact between 1x and 4x.
However an optic never passes without a few design flaws but I’m glad I only paid for a fraction of the retail value. It’s not focus adjustable, reticle seems intentionally not daylight bright, and the overall construction feels as crude as a Russian.

I’m looking to get a 20” fsb upper but I’m debating on optics in these interesting times.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: spicynoodle_1 on May 17, 2020, 05:50:38 PM
Recently I acquired a Wolf PSU 1x/4x which uses the same or similar concept as the elcan spectre DR. I like it. It has great glass, rangefinder reticle, really wide field of view (about 2ft shy of a acog ta31) and it holds the same point of impact between 1x and 4x.

Point of impact shouldn't change with magnification with any scope... I guess quality of the scope would play a factor, but it should stay the same..

The holosun 503 is really great bang for the buck.

+1 on holosun...
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 17, 2020, 06:08:28 PM
Point of impact shouldn't change with magnification with any scope... I guess quality of the scope would play a factor, but it should stay the same..

+1 on holosun...

The Wolf PSU is known to have POA/POI issues between shooting 1x and 4x. Sometimes there are reports of the elcan doing that too. I was lucky enough to dind a unit that didn’t have that problem.  LPVOs and variable optics are not as complex by design.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 18, 2020, 10:07:43 AM
While precision shooting isn't something that immediately comes to mind when it comes to red dots, there are methods to help that.  Distance to target and dot size are big factors.  Some red dots are in the 4-8 MOA range and that's pretty big at 100 yards.  4 MOA is the largest dot I have.  When I am trying for more precision, I dial the dot as far down as I can and then use the top edge of the dot as the aiming point.  I've been able to get pretty decent groups doing that.  The EoTech reticle is clearer to me and 1 MOA.  The 2 MOA Aimpoint dots bloom a bit for me, but no too bad. 

Overall, red dots (at least for me) is essential for a defensive carbine for ease of use (put the dot on the target), speed of use, and forgiving of head position or even no cheekweld.  I've done some testing of parallax, but that's at 50 and 100 yards, and that was mostly a "see for myself" exercise.  At "in your face" to 25 yards, or even 50 yards, parallax hasn't been a real consideration for hitting a 12" x 16" target area.

Regarding changing POI at different magnification, I've seen it a couple of times.  One was on a buddy's Trijicon 1-4x and it was during a carbine class.  1x was fine, but then POI would change when going to 4x.  Luckily the 1x was fine and was able to get through the course fine, but there were exercises that would've been good experience to try/test out the 4x. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: spicynoodle_1 on May 18, 2020, 10:31:51 AM
How off was the POI?  And at what distance was he shooting?  I assume that he was shooting at farther distances when using 4x mag than when he was using 1x.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 18, 2020, 10:45:14 AM
How off was the POI?  And at what distance was he shooting?  I assume that he was shooting at farther distances when using 4x mag than when he was using 1x.
For my buddy, I think it was maybe 3-4" off at 100 yards.  I don't remember exactly since this was maybe 8 years ago now.  We had just finished zeroing and were shooting at 50, 100, and 200 to confirm, as well as to note the POI changes for the various distances for the particular zero.  I think that's when he noticed the shift in POI from 1x to 4x.  He ended up sending back to Trijicon, but I don't remember what was the issue.  But when he got it back, it was fine. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 18, 2020, 10:53:29 AM
That’s interesting, LPVOs are the rage these days and rarely anyone talks about a shift when going from 1x to 4x unlike the elcan specter DR system which is prone to shifting.
Was he zeroed for 50/200 or 100 yards? And if you can remember, which direction did it shift?  If he was zeroed for 50 yards then that would make sense for where the POI arc would be for a 100 yard target, assuming it was simply just hitting a little high.

I personally would like to see more 1x prism optics. The 1moa dot on the eotech is really crisp when shooting out to 300 yards but you have to fiddle with the brightness setting. Not to mention relying on batteries. It also just seems clearer to look through a prism sight like the primary arms 1x cyclops than a red dot/holosight.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 18, 2020, 11:11:30 AM
That’s interesting, LPVOs are the rage these days and rarely anyone talks about a shift when going from 1x to 4x unlike the elcan specter DR system which is prone to shifting.
Was he zeroed for 50/200 or 100 yards? And if you can remember, which direction did it shift?  If he was zeroed for 50 yards then that would make sense for where the POI arc would be for a 100 yard target, assuming it was simply just hitting a little high.

I personally would like to see more 1x prism optics. The 1moa dot on the eotech is really crisp when shooting out to 300 yards but you have to fiddle with the brightness setting. Not to mention relying on batteries. It also just seems clearer to look through a prism sight like the primary arms 1x cyclops than a red dot/holosight.
I don't remember which direction it shifted. 

I think his gun was zeroed for 50, but not sure.  The POI shift wasn't due to distance.  After confirming zero, we started shooting 50, 100, 200, etc to illustrate the trajectory "spread" of that zero across the varying distances.  This was a carbine 1 class so some of the shooters needed a little bit more time when we shot at 50 and 100, so that's when my buddy decided to try shooting one group at 1x and another at 4x.  That's where he started noticing the difference.  I ended up shooting his gun at 100 yards as an independent test and noticed the shift as well. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 18, 2020, 11:55:54 AM
got the Holosun 510c over the weekend. been looking through it around the house.  it has a sizeable picture window, but the whole sight isn't that big at all, its easy to use, so I like it so far.
just need the darn range to open so I can test it out

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49910852472_1aeab68584_b.jpg)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: spicynoodle_1 on May 19, 2020, 12:05:55 PM
A buddy of mine has that Holosun. I like it. That the one with the 65 MOA circle, right? I like that reticle...
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 19, 2020, 02:09:39 PM
The circle dot reticle is great on the holosun. I had the solar/battery model 503C but if I were to do it again I would probably buy the one that runs only on battery. The solar and the auto brightness feature was neat but it had the hereditary problems self illuminated optics have for dynamic/low light lighting conditions as well as the little screwdriver and tray to fit the 2032 battery.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 19, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
My poverty elcan, made in Russia lol (https://i.imgur.com/vQksjoO.jpg)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 19, 2020, 03:24:58 PM
A buddy of mine has that Holosun. I like it. That the one with the 65 MOA circle, right? I like that reticle...

that's the one
can also switch to just red dot, or just the circle with the crosshairs
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aieahound on May 20, 2020, 04:25:31 PM
I use 2-7’s on my AR’s.
I figure inside 35 feet, HD distance, I’m point shooting or using a sidearm.
35 feet and out I can shoot with two eyes open.
One reticle is illuminated dot in crosshairs.

Zombie apocalypse I’ll need to able to head shot at 50 to 100 yards.

I figured out, for me, I can’t shoot for shit with a red dot at distance and angle of pie plate is no fun at the range.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 20, 2020, 04:37:01 PM
I use 2-7’s on my AR’s.
I figure inside 35 feet, HD distance, I’m point shooting or using a sidearm.
35 feet I can shoot with two eyes open.
One reticle is illuminated dot in crosshairs.

Zombie apocalypse I’ll need to able to head shot at 50 to 100 yards.

I figured out, for me, I can’t shoot for shit with a red dot at distance and angle of pie plate is no fun at the range.

I used to use the Burris fullfield ii 2-7x35. Was a nice optic, liked the concept, and it was lighter than a LPVO but I hated how the whole rear bulb turns when you change magnifications and the limited options on the market for a 2-7x. Right now I’m eyeing out on the Sig Sierra3BDX 2.5-8x and set up the reticle for a bdc layout.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 20, 2020, 05:31:45 PM
I use 2-7’s on my AR’s.
I figure inside 35 feet, HD distance, I’m point shooting or using a sidearm.
35 feet and out I can shoot with two eyes open.
One reticle is illuminated dot in crosshairs.

Zombie apocalypse I’ll need to able to head shot at 50 to 100 yards.

I figured out, for me, I can’t shoot for shit with a red dot at distance and angle of pie plate is no fun at the range.
Sounds like you need Inspector to come back and punch holes in your target (in place of hitting steel behind you).  :rofl:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aieahound on May 20, 2020, 06:45:10 PM
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 21, 2020, 08:29:17 AM
I fall back on ACOGs. Few moving parts.The widely issued TA31 has a very short eye relief but in terms of simplicity it works all the time. If the tritium wears out and you have the light tube, just tape a small LED keychain to the top of it. The All Guard team used paper hole reinforcement to reduce parallax errors. I've had luck with machined acrylic ocular pieces with a a center aperture. The TA11 is heavier but offers a more forgiving eye relief. In a CQB situation you can look over the top of the sight for speed.
The best advice I adhere to is "Fear the man (or woman) with one gun (or optic)"
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 09:23:25 AM
For a pure defensive rifle that would see range use from time to time, I’d personally be using an RDS and grab a pair of binoculars or a spotting scope to check groupings since Koko Head is limited to100 yards.  For hard use, I trust aimpoint the most but like the eotech reticle.  I’m also a fan of Holosun for a more budgetary rds.  I think they’ve made their mark in the market and have proven to be fairly rugged.

That being said, I’m in the process of wanting to build a shtf rifle.  I’ll be putting an LVPO on it and am contemplating a top or offset mounted mrds.  For that type of build, I’m looking for something that is reliable, great at 1x, clear glass and daylight bright.  Money no object, I’d probably be looking at a Kahles K16i, Nightforce ATACR, or Gen III razor.  At around $1,000, I’d be looking at a used Razor Gen II E, maybe a a trijicon credo 1-6 sfp, or others in that range.  At around $500-600, I’d be looking at the Steiner p4xi, vortex viper pst gen II 1-6, and the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-8 or 1-10.

I did have the new Vortex 1-8 strike eagle on order for weeks and was still processing. took a couple days and 2 emails to cancel it bc they weren't taking phone calls
while I was waiting I was looking at the Swampfox Arrowhead. new company. I think started in 2018? from what people were saying its better than Primary Arms. clearer glass, better turrets, tracking is good. I cant afford a $2k optic, but something in the 500-600 range is within reach. I had the new Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8 on order for weeks and it was still being processed, so I figured it wasn't even in stock yet. it took 2 days and 2 emails to get it cancelled bc they weren't taking phone calls due to covid19.  idk wtf that means. customer service is customer service. corona virus or not. our customer service at work is the same if not better bc of corona virus. anyway I cancelled that order and took a chance on the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10. from what I hear its very good. it shipped out the day after I ordered it so that's a good start. we'll see when it gets here.

I'll have the Holosun on my HD AR, so this 1-10 will be on a different AR. upgraded its current optic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omyt4gfIPZY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JDo5EV8-nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB_9vECY40o
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 21, 2020, 09:25:15 AM
I fall back on ACOGs. Few moving parts.The widely issued TA31 has a very short eye relief but in terms of simplicity it works all the time. If the tritium wears out and you have the light tube, just tape a small LED keychain to the top of it. The All Guard team used paper hole reinforcement to reduce parallax errors. I've had luck with machined acrylic ocular pieces with a a center aperture. The TA11 is heavier but offers a more forgiving eye relief. In a CQB situation you can look over the top of the sight for speed.
The best advice I adhere to is "Fear the man (or woman) with one gun (or optic)"

Have you ever considered buying tritium vials instead of the led light to put on top of the acog’s tritium/fiber optic?
You can get them from mixglo and they aren’t very expensive (though they’re tiny but they’re bright). That’s what I did when I still had a SeeAll sight, bought a tiny tritium rod from them and stuck it in one of the little holes in the fiber optic and sealed it with tape and it was overall cheaper than buying the SeeAll tritium sight.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 21, 2020, 09:38:01 AM
I did have the new Vortex 1-8 strike eagle on order for weeks and was still processing. took a couple days and 2 emails to cancel it bc they weren't taking phone calls
while I was waiting I was looking at the Swampfox Arrowhead. new company. I think started in 2018? from what people were saying its better than Primary Arms. clearer glass, better turrets, tracking is good. I cant afford a $2k optic, but something in the 500-600 range is within reach. I had the new Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8 on order for weeks and it was still being processed, so I figured it wasn't even in stock yet. it took 2 days and 2 emails to get it cancelled bc they weren't taking phone calls due to covid19.  idk wtf that means. customer service is customer service. corona virus or not. our customer service at work is the same if not better bc of corona virus. anyway I cancelled that order and took a chance on the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10. from what I hear its very good. it shipped out the day after I ordered it so that's a good start. we'll see when it gets here.

I'll have the Holosun on my HD AR, so this 1-10 will be on a different AR. upgraded its current optic

Sucks to hear that Vortex's CS left you hanging (well, worse).  I heard their CS is excellent, but I only have experience with working with their dealers/distributors.  Vortex is in WI, and I didn't think shutdowns were particularly widespread and strict there.  That said, I have seen many companies that seem close to normal operation in terms of online ordering and stuff.  Sucks to hear that they let you down, but hopefully that opens the door for Swampfox.  Good to get feedback from a source that is closer to home, as opposed to weeding through the various YouTube videos.  Hopefully the range opens soon.  Sounds like you have at least two things that need to be tested.   ;D
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 09:58:09 AM
Sucks to hear that Vortex's CS left you hanging (well, worse).  I heard their CS is excellent, but I only have experience with working with their dealers/distributors.  Vortex is in WI, and I didn't think shutdowns were particularly widespread and strict there.  That said, I have seen many companies that seem close to normal operation in terms of online ordering and stuff.  Sucks to hear that they let you down, but hopefully that opens the door for Swampfox.  Good to get feedback from a source that is closer to home, as opposed to weeding through the various YouTube videos.  Hopefully the range opens soon.  Sounds like you have at least two things that need to be tested.   ;D

Sorry I should've been more specific. It was PSA I ordered the vortex from, so it's their customer service not Vortex. It said in stock, but after a few weeks it said backorder, maybe they are just super busy and their computer inventory is off.  Said things may take as long as 5 days to ship but it went to 3 weeks. But by that time I wanted to try the swampfox anyways. I already have a few vortex and they are very good. Just figured I'll try something new
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 09:59:30 AM
PSA usually ships within a reasonable time, but this time took a few weeks and still processing
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
And Swampfox had 25% off so that was an incentive too
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 21, 2020, 10:21:13 AM
Sorry I should've been more specific. It was PSA I ordered the vortex from, so it's their customer service not Vortex. It said in stock, but after a few weeks it said backorder, maybe they are just super busy and their computer inventory is off.  Said things may take as long as 5 days to ship but it went to 3 weeks. But by that time I wanted to try the swampfox anyways. I already have a few vortex and they are very good. Just figured I'll try something new
Ahh.  Yeah, I've heard mixed reviews of PSA's CS.  For me, they've been nothing but awesome.  Things shipped very quickly after ordering, arrived quickly, good quality products (esp for the price), good sales, etc.  The one negative for me is their rifle mag policy, but whatevers.

On the other hand, I have many friends who have pretty much written off ordering from PSA.  Reports of shipping delays, particularly on items shown as in stock.  Sounds similar to your experience.  If an item was shown as in stock and took 3 weeks to ship is UNSAT.  I would be understanding if they gave me an update that their inventory wasn't up to date. 

As a side, but similar topic, Geissele really pissed a lot of people off in their last Black Friday sale.  My order took over 3 months.  What eventually got to me were that someone on their social media started talking $hit back to people commenting.  Second was that they practically started flaunting business as usual and moving onto other things all while hundreds of orders still backordered.  I mean quality products is the main thing, but CS to me is huge. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 21, 2020, 10:29:07 AM
I hope that’s not the case with my PSA order. I just placed an order for their 20” fsb upper earlier this morning.
Never had a problem with their shipping speed, but I’ve heard stories about the quality of their assemblies such as loose or overtorqued barrel nuts, gas keys shearing off, upper doesn’t cycle...etc. Personally I’ve experienced the overtorqued barrel nut when I tried to upgrade a PSA upper to a free float handguard, and a BCG doesn’t like to run after several mags without adding more oil.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 21, 2020, 11:19:43 AM
Swampfox has some odd marketing vids. I dont' think they are a manufacturer but a branding company like Osprey.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Swampfox has some odd marketing vids. I dont' think they are a manufacturer but a branding company like Osprey.
From what I hear, they are not a manufacturer. They do design their optics then a manufacturer on China makes it
I hope it's much better than Osprey  ;)
Owner used to work at Primary Arms, then went on his own.
PA makes their optics same way. Swampfox reticle is similar to acss reticle, but more simple
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 21, 2020, 12:36:52 PM
From what I hear, they are not a manufacturer. They do design their optics then a manufacturer on China makes it
I hope it's much better than Osprey  ;)
Owner used to work at Primary Arms, then went on his own.
PA makes their optics same way. Swampfox reticle is similar to acss reticle, but more simple

Instead of having a whole page dedicated to telling the story of Francis Marion, have a page detailing the mechanics of their scopes. Like this: https://www.nightforceoptics.com/technology (https://www.nightforceoptics.com/technology)

I was skeptical of Nightforce when they came out years ago but after reading about what they know in design, manufacture and shooting NF scopes I am confident in their products and would spend my money on NF.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 12:37:53 PM
I must have ordered at least a dozen times from PSA. each time before has been quick shipping. So I'm not writing them off yet. They're probably just really busy

I hear a lot of complaints about shipping delays from optics planet right now from other firearms websites. I guess these big well known firearms and parts websites and stores are all busy now and selling out. Even Aero Precision website backordered
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 21, 2020, 12:41:29 PM
I tend of hear negative stuff about swampfox optics.

Most “budget” optics are made in China, hence the backorders.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 21, 2020, 01:10:31 PM
Have you ever considered buying tritium vials instead of the led light to put on top of the acog’s tritium/fiber optic?
You can get them from mixglo and they aren’t very expensive (though they’re tiny but they’re bright). That’s what I did when I still had a SeeAll sight, bought a tiny tritium rod from them and stuck it in one of the little holes in the fiber optic and sealed it with tape and it was overall cheaper than buying the SeeAll tritium sight.

the tritium is still bright after buying it in 2009. I would replace it myself but I don't have the means to purge the optic after disassembly.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 01:15:54 PM
Instead of having a whole page dedicated to telling the story of Francis Marion, have a page detailing the mechanics of their scopes. Like this: https://www.nightforceoptics.com/technology (https://www.nightforceoptics.com/technology)

I was skeptical of Nightforce when they came out years ago but after reading about what they know in design, manufacture and shooting NF scopes I am confident in their products and would spend my money on NF.

I'd love to be able to afford a NF optic. Their reputation for quality and toughness is hard to beat. They are top tier optics for sure
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
Comparing NF to Swampfox would be like comparing a Maserati GT or Mercedes AMG GT to a Mustang GT
First 2 cars are better built, faster, better all around. But all I can afford is a Mustang GT, and it does what I need it to do
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 01:41:09 PM
46 page thread on Swampfox optics. Marketing guy comes in on page 1. Interesting read, says about 20 well known US optic companies use the same Chinese manufacturers to make their optics.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/SwampFox-Optics/18-737086/?page=1

Springfield put the same optic on their AR. Although their AR isnt top tier
https://www.thearmorylife.com/the-riflemans-rifle-saint-5-56mm/
They use UTG buis too. I have the UTG low pro irons and I like them better than magpul, they are solidly built.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 21, 2020, 02:10:54 PM
I'd love to be able to afford a NF optic. Their reputation for quality and toughness is hard to beat. They are top tier optics for sure
Oh go for it.  Treat yourself to something nice.  You deserve it! 

And yes, I do tell myself that when I'm on the fence about dropping $$$ on something.  Sometimes it "helps".   ;D

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on May 21, 2020, 02:13:05 PM
I've heard a lot of bad feedback about Optic Planet as well.  It seems like since they multiple warehouses/outlets, that they have a difficult time with their stock tracking.  I've bought some things from them and had one item that was later changed to backordered when it was listed as in stock when I placed the order.  I ended up cancelling the order and going with another company. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 21, 2020, 04:39:26 PM
46 page thread on Swampfox optics. Marketing guy comes in on page 1. Interesting read, says about 20 well known US optic companies use the same Chinese manufacturers to make their optics.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/SwampFox-Optics/18-737086/?page=1

Springfield put the same optic on their AR. Although their AR isnt top tier
https://www.thearmorylife.com/the-riflemans-rifle-saint-5-56mm/
They use UTG buis too. I have the UTG low pro irons and I like them better than magpul, they are solidly built.
I ordered my arrowhead 1-10x in green  along with a kingslayer....shipped out the next day and got it within 3 days....was the same when I ordered their 1-6x arrowhead...super fast, even with the covid 19 stuff going on. Had to wait over a week for optics planet to tell me they couldn't ship an upper and then another 3 weeks for them  actually ship out the rest of my order.
I'm happy with both the 1-6x and 1-10x..like it better than my PA 1-8x.
Someone on the other forum did a comparison with a NF...his results or should I say opinion was surprising.....but thats his opinion and I can't say because I don't own a NF and don't think I'd ever be able to afford one..
P.s....good choice on the 510c....happy with mine and want to get another one later
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 05:09:24 PM
I ordered my arrowhead 1-10x in green  along with a kingslayer....shipped out the next day and got it within 3 days....was the same when I ordered their 1-6x arrowhead...super fast, even with the covid 19 stuff going on. Had to wait over a week for optics planet to tell me they couldn't ship an upper and then another 3 weeks for them  actually ship out the rest of my order.
I'm happy with both the 1-6x and 1-10x..like it better than my PA 1-8x.
Someone on the other forum did a comparison with a NF...his results or should I say opinion was surprising.....but thats his opinion and I can't say because I don't own a NF and don't think I'd ever be able to afford one..
P.s....good choice on the 510c....happy with mine and want to get another one later

I ordered in green too
I saw a comparison on that thread with NF. Not sure if same as you are talking about. Was a 15 year old NF, if i remember correctly. Said was pretty comparable glass. And the NF was $800 when he got it. So I take that FWIW.
I also have a PA 1-6, see how it compares. I might give the PA to my nephew, put it on his AR
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 21, 2020, 05:13:36 PM
Lol not sure if its the same one...have to go look it up...im sure a SFP won't compare to the NF.....good thing I don't get to see through one coz then I'd want one....maybe one day...for now I'm happy with the ones I have...so don't post pics of the NF so I don't know what I'm missing lol

Here's the post from johnwayne_77 on the other forum...take it for what its worth....


I own both.

Glass is just as good. (The glass in the PST-II 1-6 is excellent for the pricepoint)

The eyebox on the PST-II feels a little bit more generous, but I'm still getting the mount dialed in on the gun the Arrowhead is installed on. I ditched the Aero mount last week in favor of a 1.93 ADM mount and that's helping. I think a 1.7 is probably ideal but the 1.93 ADM mount was free-99, so...

The reticle on the Arrowhead is much nicer to use with illumination. The more traditional crosshairs reticle on the PST-II is still very quick to use at speed...but I spent a lot of years hunting game with that kind of reticle so it's easy to use anyway.

I can tell you after playing with it back to back with a Nightforce 1-8x I prefer the Arrowhead by a considerable margin. If there's a measurable difference in the clarity of the glass, I couldn't see it. Using both of them back to back at everything from 5 yards out to 300 I greatly preferred the Arrowhead in usability, clarity, and ease of use. Especially up close. First focal plane optics are nice but the sight picture you get on the NF sucks compared to the Arrowhead's reticle, IMO. The super-restrictive eye box on the NF is a pain in the balls. And it's so restrictive that if you shift your head even slightly it looks like the illuminated part of the reticle is blinking. It's not, it's just sort of 3D hologramming (if that's a word) slightly and that makes it look funny. It's also a pain in the balls to use at distance because the center of the reticle takes up so much real estate. Shooting at a head plate on a hostage target at 300 you're just guessing where the plate is because you can't see it. With the Arrowhead I can see it and I can pick which part of the plate I'm putting the dot in the center of the reticle on.

The only reason I'm not replacing my PST-II 1-6x with another Arrowhead is because the gun it's on is a legit sub-MOA gun (.8 MOA, to be exact) with the MagTek MK262 load and I don't have the time or the spare ammo to dial in another optic on the gun before I have to teach with it. So I'm leaving it alone :-X
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 21, 2020, 05:19:18 PM
Here's a shot from my phone through the scopes...not a good representation but at least for some comparison....all done in 6x zoom
1st shot is the arrowhead 1-6x
2nd is the Arrowhead 1-10x (not sure why the reticle is larger)
3rd is the PA 1-8x
4th is at 1x for comparison
5th is  Arrowhead 1-10x in 10x
6th is PA 1-8x in 8x
Hard to center the scope with the phone so the eyebox may have been off a little on some of the pics.
Either way, I'm happy with what I got so far.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: mangosteenqueen on May 21, 2020, 05:59:52 PM
When I had the PA 1-6x SFP, the clarity and light transmission left a lot to be desired. Same for for the vortex strike eagle 1-6x. The next LPVO I’ll be looking to get is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x. Lots of people say it’s the best glass you can get for the cost.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 21, 2020, 06:14:07 PM
Can someone recommend a decent magnifier and quick flip mount to go with my Holosun 510c? My old eyes need some magnification for longer distances. Dont want to spend an arm and a leg for it and prefer something with good eye relief
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 21, 2020, 06:16:14 PM
When I had the PA 1-6x SFP, the clarity and light transmission left a lot to be desired. Same for for the vortex strike eagle 1-6x. The next LPVO I’ll be looking to get is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x. Lots of people say it’s the best glass you can get for the cost.
Nice scope...do they have something with a tad more magnification?
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Bota-CS1 on May 21, 2020, 07:14:43 PM
Can someone recommend a decent magnifier and quick flip mount to go with my Holosun 510c? My old eyes need some magnification for longer distances. Dont want to spend an arm and a leg for it and prefer something with good eye relief

If your 510c Is lower 1/3 get the Vortex micro 3x
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 21, 2020, 08:21:15 PM
Here's a shot from my phone through the scopes...not a good representation but at least for some comparison....all done in 6x zoom
1st shot is the arrowhead 1-6x
2nd is the Arrowhead 1-10x (not sure why the reticle is larger)
3rd is the PA 1-8x
4th is at 1x for comparison
5th is  Arrowhead 1-10x in 10x
6th is PA 1-8x in 8x
Hard to center the scope with the phone so the eyebox may have been off a little on some of the pics.
Either way, I'm happy with what I got so far.
Good comparison pics.  :shaka:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: blastoff747 on May 22, 2020, 01:51:50 AM
Can someone recommend a decent magnifier and quick flip mount to go with my Holosun 510c? My old eyes need some magnification for longer distances. Dont want to spend an arm and a leg for it and prefer something with good eye relief

I use the holosun hm3x.  Comes with spacer for lower 1/3.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 22, 2020, 12:39:44 PM
Fwiw,

Nightforce came out with cheaper optics. 900-1200. Shv line for some time now. Not as durable as their nxs, atacr, nx8 according to them (nf company.) Bur people still be beating on them with zero issues. Best ive seen was thrown 20-30 feet in the air and hit gravel road. Also dragged it going 30-45 mph down the same road. Sure it was scratched and nicked. I think his elevation turret was semi hard to turn after all that. But Still held zero and did that 4 corner test to return to zero. Gtg.

Swampfox is an airsofter. Nothing wrong with that. Hell i still play too just not since last year, had no time off of work. He just doesnt have the funding to backup and manufacture his own yet. Everyone has to start somewhere. Never tried his optics yet tho. Prob never will. Ill stick to leupys, trijicon. Just for their reputation and customer service. Had to deal with both customer service. Leupy sent parts no questions asked. And didnt even care if i sent my old stuff back. Trijicon fixed my mro free of charge, and paid for my shipping both ways.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: MantisClaw on May 22, 2020, 12:47:41 PM
When I had the PA 1-6x SFP, the clarity and light transmission left a lot to be desired. Same for for the vortex strike eagle 1-6x. The next LPVO I’ll be looking to get is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x. Lots of people say it’s the best glass you can get for the cost.

The P4Xi has almost doubled in cost recently.  I got mine for ~$400 and it's amazing at that price.  At $800 or $600 demo price you're better off saving a little more for a much better optic.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 22, 2020, 02:43:07 PM
Here's a look through the Arrowhead 1-10
I'm seeing people saying this its better than Strike Eagle and some say better than Viper PST. That would be something
If it's better or comparable, then I'll be more than satisfied

https://youtu.be/jzBztbzxGxQ
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on May 22, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
Wow thats actually pretty damn clear considering it first goes through a camera lens then i watch it through my old ass Samsung galaxy phone screen.

For those who dont know, its like a printing press. Everytime it has to pass another stage (in this case lens and screens,  quality degrades) learned that in art class back in high school and college. Lol

Nice choice stang
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on May 22, 2020, 06:00:17 PM
Most “budget” optics are made in China, hence the backorders.
Yabbut, a lot of us cannot afford optics that cost 3X as much as the rifle.

Nightforce and US Optics would be great to play with, but I am stuck way below that level.  Do not have Uncle Sugar paying the bills.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Neesh on May 22, 2020, 06:37:00 PM
Thanks for the referrals on the magnifiers....saw those and watching for a memorial day sale..
Yep, good choice stangzilla. Only thing I didn't like was the weight but can live with that considering the clear glass and price
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on May 22, 2020, 06:43:05 PM
Std GI issued sights work well if you cant afford good glass.
Learn to shoot irons well first.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aieahound on May 22, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
Zeroing irons starting at 50 yards is almost an art.
(For some of you guys it’s not even a second thought. Not me though)
Hence my 2-7 proclivity.
I had a neighbor who was an instructor and could do it but he moved.
Bore sighting is one thing but If anyone can zero my carry handle, I’ll gladly provide 20 rounds.
It’ll take me all day to zero that thing.

I would love to shoot with zero’d irons and see what I can do without Rocky behind me.  :D :shaka:
Shoot Irons with my pellet gun at 10 to 20 yards all the time.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: changemyoil66 on May 26, 2020, 10:27:48 PM
Zeroing irons starting at 50 yards is almost an art.
(For some of you guys it’s not even a second thought. Not me though)
Hence my 2-7 proclivity.
I had a neighbor who was an instructor and could do it but he moved.
Bore sighting is one thing but If anyone can zero my carry handle, I’ll gladly provide 20 rounds.
It’ll take me all day to zero that thing.

I would love to shoot with zero’d irons and see what I can do without Rocky behind me.  :D :shaka:
Shoot Irons with my pellet gun at 10 to 20 yards all the time.
When i tried to zero when i 1st started, the flip RO offered to help. I was hitting the dirt and didnt know it.

Main thing is u need a good scope or binoculars so u can see where ur rounds are hitting.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on May 27, 2020, 08:58:20 AM
I got the Swampfox arrowhead 1-10x24 yesterday.  obviously I cant test it out yet bc kokohead is closed, or maybe i'll go indoor but that's real close to test it out for what it can do
but I did look thru it a bit yesterday while the sun was still out.  edge to edge clarity is very good.  I looked at objects across the street to over 1 mile out, overall clarity is very good too.  turrets have a good distinct / audible clicks, zero stop, locking.  reticle is very bright and illumination in green gets very bright too.
I think for the money, it looks good so far. i'll have to see how it does over time. i'm not even sure which AR i'm going to put in on yet.  ;D  I might switch some optics around, do some upgrades
just by looking at the glass alone, its better than my PA 1-6 sfp, but PA is a cheaper optic.  better overall clarity than my Vortex diamondback tactical 6-24x50 but that's not LPVO so idk if that's a fair comparison, but pricewise about the same. I don't have anything like a NF or Leupold to compare it to, but i'm sure its not in that category.  but something in the 500 or less category it might be something to consider. but i'll have to see how it performs over time
hope the range opens soon  :grrr:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Jmoto808 on May 27, 2020, 03:58:56 PM
I got the Swampfox arrowhead 1-10x24 yesterday.  obviously I cant test it out yet bc kokohead is closed, or maybe i'll go indoor but that's real close to test it out for what it can do
but I did look thru it a bit yesterday while the sun was still out.  edge to edge clarity is very good.  I looked at objects across the street to over 1 mile out, overall clarity is very good too.  turrets have a good distinct / audible clicks, zero stop, locking.  reticle is very bright and illumination in green gets very bright too.
I think for the money, it looks good so far. i'll have to see how it does over time. i'm not even sure which AR i'm going to put in on yet.  ;D  I might switch some optics around, do some upgrades
just by looking at the glass alone, its better than my PA 1-6 sfp, but PA is a cheaper optic.  better overall clarity than my Vortex diamondback tactical 6-24x50 but that's not LPVO so idk if that's a fair comparison, but pricewise about the same. I don't have anything like a NF or Leupold to compare it to, but i'm sure its not in that category.  but something in the 500 or less category it might be something to consider. but i'll have to see how it performs over time
hope the range opens soon  :grrr:

Hope it works out brotha. I think as long as your expectations are realistic. You will never be let down. And at the end of the day thats all that matters. I drive a 1996 camera and would rather drive rhat because it does the job then to upgrade because other stuff have "better features". It gets me from a to b reliably. At rhe same time i dont expect to be weaving in traffic or to be havin the best speaker system or fancy LED lights. Same wirh your optic, unless its an optic you are depending your life on, just do your best to buy what you can for now and upgrade as the years go on, also keep an eye out for second hand stuff. And modt guys i know are more than welcoming to let people peek behind their stuff at kokohead, so you can always see for yourseld if its worth rhe extra cash. Lastly, i do not recommend someone using irons as their primary sight. Affordable red dots and lpvo are just so much more useful in todays age. But yes its great to know how to use it. But dont limit yourself to it.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Duenas0326 on June 05, 2020, 06:04:06 PM
Just purchased the UPDATED Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24 with the AR BDC3 MOA reticle. Took it to X-Ring Security to zero and I'm pleased with the results.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Influence on June 05, 2020, 08:31:11 PM
I got the Swampfox arrowhead 1-10x24 yesterday.  obviously I cant test it out yet bc kokohead is closed, or maybe i'll go indoor but that's real close to test it out for what it can do
but I did look thru it a bit yesterday while the sun was still out.  edge to edge clarity is very good.  I looked at objects across the street to over 1 mile out, overall clarity is very good too.  turrets have a good distinct / audible clicks, zero stop, locking.  reticle is very bright and illumination in green gets very bright too.
I think for the money, it looks good so far. i'll have to see how it does over time. i'm not even sure which AR i'm going to put in on yet.  ;D  I might switch some optics around, do some upgrades
just by looking at the glass alone, its better than my PA 1-6 sfp, but PA is a cheaper optic.  better overall clarity than my Vortex diamondback tactical 6-24x50 but that's not LPVO so idk if that's a fair comparison, but pricewise about the same. I don't have anything like a NF or Leupold to compare it to, but i'm sure its not in that category.  but something in the 500 or less category it might be something to consider. but i'll have to see how it performs over time
hope the range opens soon  :grrr:

Very interested to hear your further thoughts on that optic.  Almost pulled the trigger on that optic and researched it heavily.  Heard it’s pretty much best in class.

I talked my wife into letting me get my “last” rifle and ended up springing for a razor, but wouldn’t mind looking into that in the future for my wife’s gun.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on June 06, 2020, 10:33:14 AM
Very interested to hear your further thoughts on that optic.  Almost pulled the trigger on that optic and researched it heavily.  Heard it’s pretty much best in class.

I talked my wife into letting me get my “last” rifle and ended up springing for a razor, but wouldn’t mind looking into that in the future for my wife’s gun.

I probably will shoot it next week.  I got 1 more optic I have to sight in tomorrow, then i'll do the Swampfox!!!
1 hour to shoot isn't enough
but i'm anxious to shoot it.  I still haven't mounted it yet, so probably next week
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on June 07, 2020, 11:51:03 AM
i got the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10 mounted and shot it for about 1/2 hour bc the other 1/2 hour I wanted to sight in the Holosun  sight on the other rifle. actually the shooting times are more like 23 minutes
I want to dial it in a little better bc this is with black box Federal 223 55 grain cheapo ammo. I would like to see what other ammo can do. but with limited time at kokohead only can do so much
first impressions shooting with this optic is I really like it.  the picture is clear edge to edge, the reticle is sharp and bright if you use the illumination or if you don't it still is sharp reticle. I like that the reticle is fairly big in 1x mode, I don't mind the SFP on this optic.  the turrets are firm clicks, not mushy.  I like the locking turrets, zero reset.  I would say its much better than my Primary Arms 1-6 SFP, although the PA is cheaper.  but i'd rather pay a little more for this.  some people claim its better than Vortex strike eagle and even Viper PST which is more expensive. but I don't have those optics to compare.
overall, I think you get a lot of bang for the buck with this optic.  although I only shot it 1 time.   ;)
we'll have to see how it holds up over time

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49978556903_c9ae0e1086_b.jpg)

this is four 2 shot groups at 50 yds dialing in the LPVO. reticle needs to be zero'd at 50 to use the BDC markings.
I wish I had more time to confirm shots but with the time limit, just gotta do fast kine for now.   
first shots were left, then overcompensated and went right, then dialed it in a little closer.  i'll have to get it better next time   :shaka:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49982185752_49240dc519_b.jpg)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: aaronc5362 on June 07, 2020, 04:07:32 PM
Nice stang.

With limited time, bonus if you have a sled type of shooting rest.

Dunno if your allowed to bring a partner to your bench. Didnt look up the new rules stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TiOpQY2ORo4
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on June 07, 2020, 05:21:00 PM
Nice stang.

With limited time, bonus if you have a sled type of shooting rest.

Dunno if your allowed to bring a partner to your bench. Didnt look up the new rules stuff.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TiOpQY2ORo4

Yes, you are allowed to bring guests that are from your same household, but idk if that is strictly enforced.
I dont have a sled rest, I use a bipod and rear sandbag rest
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on June 07, 2020, 05:30:18 PM
i got the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10 mounted and shot it for about 1/2 hour bc the other 1/2 hour I wanted to sight in the Holosun  sight on the other rifle. actually the shooting times are more like 23 minutes
I want to dial it in a little better bc this is with black box Federal 223 55 grain cheapo ammo. I would like to see what other ammo can do. but with limited time at kokohead only can do so much
first impressions shooting with this optic is I really like it.  the picture is clear edge to edge, the reticle is sharp and bright if you use the illumination or if you don't it still is sharp reticle. I like that the reticle is fairly big in 1x mode, I don't mind the SFP on this optic.  the turrets are firm clicks, not mushy.  I like the locking turrets, zero reset.  I would say its much better than my Primary Arms 1-6 SFP, although the PA is cheaper.  but i'd rather pay a little more for this.  some people claim its better than Vortex strike eagle and even Viper PST which is more expensive. but I don't have those optics to compare.
overall, I think you get a lot of bang for the buck with this optic.  although I only shot it 1 time.   ;)
we'll have to see how it holds up over time



this is four 2 shot groups at 50 yds dialing in the LPVO. reticle needs to be zero'd at 50 to use the BDC markings.
I wish I had more time to confirm shots but with the time limit, just gotta do fast kine for now.   
first shots were left, then overcompensated and went right, then dialed it in a little closer.  i'll have to get it better next time   :shaka:


Awesome!  For a range session with zero, I'd like more than 1 hour.  I guess maybe can adapt and set out more targets or put up more targets on a single frame.  I do like to take my time and zero and confirm.  Then reset targets in the next relay.  I have some FGMM that I want to test with my LPVO.  I think one hour with about 20 min relays will be ok for that.  Maybe will try to get out there end of the month. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on June 07, 2020, 05:43:17 PM
haven't heard much about Geissele optics but if they are good as their triggers and rails
https://geissele.com/optics/super-precision-optics.html (https://geissele.com/optics/super-precision-optics.html)

looks like they are made by March Optics in Japan
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on June 07, 2020, 08:03:19 PM
here's another great optic the Vortex PST 1-4. I can vouch for repeatable clicks.
it's on sale now https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-rifle-scope-tmcq-mrad-pst-14st-m.aspx?avad=234121_e1b410825&utm_source=184213&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=avantlink (https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-rifle-scope-tmcq-mrad-pst-14st-m.aspx?avad=234121_e1b410825&utm_source=184213&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=avantlink)
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: robtmc on June 08, 2020, 09:45:04 AM
With limited time, bonus if you have a sled type of shooting rest.
Yeah, better have a very solid rest, 

Tried that method once without a super secure rifle, and was all over the place until I went back to measuring the error and dialing it in.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: changemyoil66 on June 08, 2020, 09:39:49 PM
Best to have a shitty optic and shoot it well, than an eotech or acog and cant hit jack.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: ren on June 08, 2020, 09:53:15 PM
Best to have a shitty optic and shoot it well, than an eotech or acog and cant hit jack.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

but if you have a shitty optic that cant hold zero or has dead clicks - you can't shoot well
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: changemyoil66 on June 09, 2020, 09:53:37 AM
but if you have a shitty optic that cant hold zero or has dead clicks - you can't shoot well

What if you do?  Adapt to RDS coming lose and moving or falling off.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: GlockNewb on June 09, 2020, 08:06:21 PM
Budget LPVO review, go to 5:14 for the start of all combative-noun-or-verb/poultry-variation puns

https://youtu.be/KjqEyNai4O0
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Bota-CS1 on June 09, 2020, 08:50:49 PM
I think we should have an LPVO comparison shoot divided by power range, price, and focal plane.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: dirsh on June 11, 2020, 09:13:45 PM
My aim point pro has held zero no matter how many times I take it on and off. Recently replaced it with a holosun red dot that I haven’t shot yet. At least I know I can always throw my aimpoint back on
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on June 12, 2020, 09:48:24 AM
I think we should have an LPVO comparison shoot divided by power range, price, and focal plane.
I'm down.  I have the FFP and "I probably spent too much" price range covered.   ;D

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: jase90 on June 13, 2020, 11:35:23 AM
My aim point pro has held zero no matter how many times I take it on and off. Recently replaced it with a holosun red dot that I haven’t shot yet. At least I know I can always throw my aimpoint back on

I was thinking about getting Holosun's 515 with the solar panel for my next build. How does Holosun glass compare to the Aimpoints? And as far as the feel and finish of their optics, does it feel look pretty sturdy?
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: dirsh on June 16, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
I was thinking about getting Holosun's 515 with the solar panel for my next build. How does Holosun glass compare to the Aimpoints? And as far as the feel and finish of their optics, does it feel look pretty sturdy?

Glass is pretty clear and the sight seems pretty high quality so far. I got it during black friday a few years back. super good deal. I would buy a few more at that price.
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Surfing - Shooter on June 17, 2020, 03:06:01 PM
Its all about the Budget ...

High - Trijicom MRO

Low - Sig Sauer Romeo 5

Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: drck1000 on June 18, 2020, 11:06:47 AM
I have Aimpoint and EoTech red dots on my ARs, but I've shot a lot of rounds with Trijicon, Holosun, Primary Arms, and Sig (probably others).  For me, they all are good, or at least not bad, in terms of glass quality and clarity.  I see the dot on the target.  I've heard people comment or even complain about the tint of the glass or even a slight magnification.  While I've noticed those things, they don't bother me. 

Now for LPVOs, glass quality and clarity is a more significant factor.  That said, there's also a level of "good enough with my budget" that one needs to consider. 
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: stangzilla on June 18, 2020, 04:00:05 PM
I notice now shooting with a mask on and my shooting glasses get foggy, then my sight thru the optic gets blurry.
So gotta make sure my glasses don't get foggy or just take off mask when on the trigger
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Sheppard on June 20, 2020, 10:52:59 AM
If you can afford an optic, then buy one. the technology has gotten so much better in recent years that there is a trickle-down effect, that is, the advanced technology that was on optics only a few years ago is now more affordable on "budget" minded optics today. Not to mention, there is a plethora of manufacturers now that make quality AR optics.
Furthermore, having a quality optic helps a proficient shooter better. Also consider as age comes the eyes go.
A new shooter, however, should not ignore the importance of knowing how to shoot with iron sights!
Title: Re: AR optic of choice
Post by: Rocky on June 20, 2020, 02:00:20 PM
A new shooter, however, should not ignore the importance of knowing how to shoot with iron sights!
+1
Our "friend" is hitting 10" steel at 440 yds with AK iron sites   8)