Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul (Read 14634 times)

edster48

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2014, 09:45:43 AM »
at this point of the process we have to think back at the root of all these firearm laws - would a criminal go through all these steps? Nope. We legislated ourselves into a corner. Would a criminal use an AR pistol with all these modifications and hassles to load? Nope. Would they go back and forth with a law enforcement org. to ensure compliance with the law? Nope.

Excellent point, perhaps the only point IMHO.
The government has given up worrying about criminals and focused their efforts on legal gun owners.

Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

mauidog

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 11:08:16 AM »
In the case of "if you have a full auto AR but the bolt is removed, are you in violation of the law saying no full auto? With the bolt removed your gun is effectively unable to fire so do you possess a full auto AR or not?", the ATF already addresses this:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#conversion-parts-registration

Quote
Q: Are parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm subject to registration?

    Yes. Examples:

        An M-2 conversion kit (See also What is a “conversion kit?”);

        Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively to convert a weapon into a machine gun. See “The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and 27 CFR, Part 479. What are some examples?” for examples.


Hawaii's law also covers this question based on the same concept but adds that the combination of parts to assemble a machine gun "must be in possession or under control of a single person":

HRS
Quote
§134-1 Definitions: ...
"Automatic firearm" means any firearm that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily modified to shoot automatically more than one shot,
without a manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.  This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such firearm, any part
designed and intended solely and exclusively, or any combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a firearm into an automatic
firearm, and any combination of parts from which an automatic firearm can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of
a single person.

Quote
§134-8  Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties. 

    (a)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited:  assault pistols, except as
provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen
inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting
caps, bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other
similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile
component thereof designed or intended to explode or
segment upon impact with its target.

     (b)  Any person who installs, removes, or alters a firearm part with the intent to convert the firearm to an automatic firearm shall be
deemed to have manufactured an automatic firearm in violation of subsection (a)
.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Kingkeoni

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2014, 04:10:25 PM »
In the case of "if you have a full auto AR but the bolt is removed, are you in violation of the law saying no full auto? With the bolt removed your gun is effectively unable to fire so do you possess a full auto AR or not?", the ATF already addresses this:

Yes you are in violation.

A full auto machine gun is a NFA registered item.

Removing all the parts does not change the machine gun to a non machine gun, legally.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2014, 08:59:18 PM »
Yes you are in violation.

A full auto machine gun is a NFA registered item.

Removing all the parts does not change the machine gun to a non machine gun, legally.

Precisely, and thank you Maui dog for the legal language. This is specifically spelled out for full auto but not for semi auto. However most crimes involving a firearm would probably still treat a firearm with missing parts as a firearm. I think that if the officer at the HPD window used this line of reasoning this is how he might have come to the reasoning that an AR15 with a part or two removed was still a semi auto firearm. Again, just speculating, it's possible he said to himself "I have no idea what this gun is so I am going to say no" though I hope that isn't the case.

suka

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2014, 10:09:11 PM »
An AR  without a gas system is not classified as a Semi Auto under federal laws. HRS has no provision on how a firearm is manufactured.
Since HRS has a definition of a semi auto, the bolt action AR does not meet that criteria and under the present law as written.
HPD cant assume  that it is illegal without due process, if they confiscate a firearm without an arrest, one must report that firearms as STOLEN immediately.


The build of a bolt  action AR will require the barrel to be cut down and thus will not have a hole in the barrel to allow the gas block. obviously without that hole in the barrel it is impossible to "just install" a gas tube. The use of a tool to drill a hole is not " readily" convertible to fire  semi auto. An example would be the same as drilling a few holes in a semi auto to convert it to allow the FA sear to be installed. Give me a drill press and 30min and i can do a hack job to convert any semi auto AR to FULL AUTO. ( I have personally done a AR conversion to FA under a SOT2 )

« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:14:51 PM by suka »

punaperson

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2014, 06:24:38 AM »
In the case of "if you have a full auto AR but the bolt is removed, are you in violation of the law saying no full auto? With the bolt removed your gun is effectively unable to fire so do you possess a full auto AR or not?", the ATF already addresses this:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#conversion-parts-registration

Quote

    Q: Are parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm subject to registration?

        Yes. Examples:

            An M-2 conversion kit (See also What is a “conversion kit?”);

            Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively to convert a weapon into a machine gun. See “The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and 27 CFR, Part 479. What are some examples?” for examples.

If you need a concrete example: David Koresh was suspected of having such parts. Our public servants went to Waco to make sure we knew what was in store for us if they ever suspected us of violating any of their (intra-agency-made-up and changed-per-their-whim) rules.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Beginning to think Firearms Div. needs a REAL Legal Aid/Consul
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 12:26:47 PM »
An AR  without a gas system is not classified as a Semi Auto under federal laws. HRS has no provision on how a firearm is manufactured.
Since HRS has a definition of a semi auto, the bolt action AR does not meet that criteria and under the present law as written.
HPD cant assume  that it is illegal without due process, if they confiscate a firearm without an arrest, one must report that firearms as STOLEN immediately.


The build of a bolt  action AR will require the barrel to be cut down and thus will not have a hole in the barrel to allow the gas block. obviously without that hole in the barrel it is impossible to "just install" a gas tube. The use of a tool to drill a hole is not " readily" convertible to fire  semi auto. An example would be the same as drilling a few holes in a semi auto to convert it to allow the FA sear to be installed. Give me a drill press and 30min and i can do a hack job to convert any semi auto AR to FULL AUTO. ( I have personally done a AR conversion to FA under a SOT2 )

Ok, with that description I think I have a better picture of the gun in question and I would have to agree that it shouldn't be an issue.