Let's say I have a 8" long pistol with a threaded barrel and a 40 oz weight. Not an assault pistol, but it has a threaded barrel so that's one mark against it. (The other criteria in discussion being "over 12 inches in length" and "over 50 oz in manufactured weight".)

1) If I threaded on a muzzle device that was 5" long, is the gun now an assault pistol based on OAL?

2) If I threaded on a muzzle device that weighed over 10 oz, is the gun an assault pistol based on weight?


I would assume that OAL rules work like Federal rifle OAL rules, so bolt-ons count. But I also assume that, since the law specifies "manufactured" max weight, that refers to a weight without bolt-ons.


If that's true, it leads to my next question:

3) If I pin&welded on a muzzle device that was 5" long and weighed over 10 oz, is it now an assault pistol? The OAL demerit point would replace the threaded barrel demerit point... But would the pin&weld now make the weight of the muzzle device count towards "manufactured" weight?

Let's say I have a 8" long pistol with a threaded barrel and a 40 oz weight. Not an assault pistol, but it has a threaded barrel so that's one mark against it. (The other criteria in discussion being "over 12 inches in length" and "over 50 oz in manufactured weight".)

1) If I threaded on a muzzle device that was 5" long, is the gun now an assault pistol based on OAL?

2) If I threaded on a muzzle device that weighed over 10 oz, is the gun an assault pistol based on weight?


I would assume that OAL rules work like Federal rifle OAL rules, so bolt-ons count. But I also assume that, since the law specifies "manufactured" max weight, that refers to a weight without bolt-ons.


If that's true, it leads to my next question:

3) If I pin&welded on a muzzle device that was 5" long and weighed over 10 oz, is it now an assault pistol? The OAL demerit point would replace the threaded barrel demerit point... But would the pin&weld now make the weight of the muzzle device count towards "manufactured" weight?

When you pin&weld a muzzle device to a rifle barrel to achieve the legal 16" minimum size, you are making the barrel longer, right?

I'd think the same principle apples to all firearms.  So, if you permanently extend a pistol barrel to an illegal length, it's illegal.  If the muzzle device is not permanent, then the extra length doesn't count.

As for weight, I think you answered that yourself:  "over 50 oz in manufactured weight" -- keyword being "manufactured".

But welding a 5" device onto a 8" barrel wouldn't make a pistol illegal... Because the gun is becoming over 12" at the same time it is losing the threaded barrel, so you'd be swapping your one allowable forbidden criteria for another.


So that leaves: what does "manufactured weight" mean? The gun when it left the factory weighed 40 oz, so when it was "manufactured" it weighed 40 oz.

When I welded a 12 oz muzzle brake onto it, did I "manufacture" extra weight onto it? Did I "re-manufacture" the gun, or "manufacture" a new gun, just by modifying the barrel?

But welding a 5" device onto a 8" barrel wouldn't make a pistol illegal... Because the gun is becoming over 12" at the same time it is losing the threaded barrel, so you'd be swapping your one allowable forbidden criteria for another.


So that leaves: what does "manufactured weight" mean? The gun when it left the factory weighed 40 oz, so when it was "manufactured" it weighed 40 oz.

When I welded a 12 oz muzzle brake onto it, did I "manufacture" extra weight onto it? Did I "re-manufacture" the gun, or "manufacture" a new gun, just by modifying the barrel?

Manufacture means to make -- to produce.

Adding weight post manufacture is to alter, add or increase the weight.  None of that is part of the manufacturing process.

How did you conclude that adding a muzzle device or barrel extension "loses the threaded barrel?"  Did the threads disappear in the process?  did you replace the threaded barrel with a non-threaded one?

I submit the threads still exist whether or not the device/extension is permanent.  The threads are in use, therefore the barrel is still threaded -- unless you cut the threaded portion off the end or grind the threads down, it's still threaded.

Once a device/extension is added, the threads are in use.  This doesn't negate whether or not the barrel itself is threaded.

If you think pinning and welding a barrel extension makes the barrel unthreaded for purposes of satisfying the criteria for a legal (not assault pistol) firearm, you're missing the point.  why would they not use the in-use, manufacturer-included threads against you?  The threads existed when manufactured, and you did not remove them. 

In theory, you could remove the welded pin and extension once again making the threaded barrel available for use.

I'd feel pretty confident arguing that pin&welding a muzzle device onto a threaded barrel leaves you without a threaded barrel. I'm not aware of case law but it's rather accepted to do that on "featureless" builds in other states.

Per Hawaii law, the actual assault pistol criteria is:
     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

If a device is pin&welded onto the threads, it seems obvious that the barrel is no longer "capable of accepting" any of those items.

But for the sake of my question, let's assume that the threads were lathed off before a muzzle brake was welded onto the barrel. It sounds like you're of the opinion that the weight of the welded-on muzzle brake would NOT count towards the "manufactured weight" of the pistol?


It gets fun because there'd be no way of actually measuring the original weight of the pistol without taking the "permanently" affixed muzzle brake back off of the pistol.

I'd feel pretty confident arguing that pin&welding a muzzle device onto a threaded barrel leaves you without a threaded barrel. I'm not aware of case law but it's rather accepted to do that on "featureless" builds in other states.

Per Hawaii law, the actual assault pistol criteria is:
     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

If a device is pin&welded onto the threads, it seems obvious that the barrel is no longer "capable of accepting" any of those items.

But for the sake of my question, let's assume that the threads were lathed off before a muzzle brake was welded onto the barrel. It sounds like you're of the opinion that the weight of the welded-on muzzle brake would NOT count towards the "manufactured weight" of the pistol?


It gets fun because there'd be no way of actually measuring the original weight of the pistol without taking the "permanently" affixed muzzle brake back off of the pistol.

Show me a single HRS section that includes the phrase "unless it seems obvious...."  If it's included in the statute, it's covered.  If it's not in the statute, it's not part of the law. 

What you're engaging in is personal analysis and drawing a  conclusion based on firearm function.

What the law says is technical, and it doesn't provide exclusions based on specific implementations.

If you can find a legal precedent that mitigates the technical definition of threaded barrel as it applies to designating a firearm "assault weapon/pistol" by permanently installing something over the threads, then I'd say you have a case.  Otherwise, it's an opinion based on reality -- not the actual law.

Is the barrel threaded?  Yes.

Does it accept a barrel extension?  Yes.  (One is already attached and it is pinned & welded)

Does the extension being pinned & welded constitute an exclusion to the threaded barrel rule?  Maybe -- it does in your mind. but not in the law.

You're asking for an interpretation.  I interpret it based on the text.  I see nothing about threads having exclusions.  The only exclusion I see is a permanent extension to increase the barrel length of a rifle to make it legal at 16" per the NFA.

The criteria that define an assault weapon vary from place to place.  As such, the interpretations will also vary.  I tend to look at it from a practical perspective,  if you have a barrel and extension that you intend to pay to have permanently connected while risking an unfavorable legal interpretation of the firearm drawing a felony charge, I'd rather just install a barrel of the desired length with no threads at all.  Seems like a simpler and more reliable solution than hoping the current state prosecutors know more about guns than what they learned watching John Wick.

When you say something is obvious in the law, try to remember who we have making and enforcing those laws.  Not very obvious from their perspective, IMO.

I hear your interpretation regarded threaded barrels, and I genuinely thank you for it, but I find it unconvincing.

I'd say, "prove this barrel is threaded such that it is capable of accepting one of the listed muzzle devices". It couldn't be proven without doing such in-depth machine work that any barrel would have "hidden internal threads" by such a standard.

Yes, the usable threads do literally disappear in the process.
So no, the barrel is no longer threaded.
So no, it is not capable of accepting a barrel extension on threads, as it no longer has threads. "Having accepted" does not equal "capable of accepting".


Maybe it has been discussed in court. Any argument can go either way and there is a lot of clownworld findings in firearms law in particular. Can you look it up on Westlaw or similar?

Without some precedent or official guidance I am happy being one of the many who would consider permanent installation of a muzzle device on a threaded barrel to make the barrel no longer be a threaded barrel.

And if it was still legally considered a threaded barrel, then I'd simply grind off the threads before permanently affixing the muzzle device. And then the issue would be totally 100% resolved, right?


Which leaves what I reckon is the trickier issue at hand: whether permanently affixing a muzzle brake would count towards the "manufactured weight" of the pistol. You still interpret that as a "no"? That by permanently attaching extra weight onto the pistol, or assembling the pistol with a heavier barrel, I am not "manufacturing" it?

I hear your interpretation regarded threaded barrels, and I genuinely thank you for it, but I find it unconvincing.

I'd say, "prove this barrel is threaded such that it is capable of accepting one of the listed muzzle devices". It couldn't be proven without doing such in-depth machine work that any barrel would have "hidden internal threads" by such a standard.

Yes, the usable threads do literally disappear in the process.
So no, the barrel is no longer threaded.
So no, it is not capable of accepting a barrel extension on threads, as it no longer has threads. "Having accepted" does not equal "capable of accepting".


Maybe it has been discussed in court. Any argument can go either way and there is a lot of clownworld findings in firearms law in particular. Can you look it up on Westlaw or similar?

Without some precedent or official guidance I am happy being one of the many who would consider permanent installation of a muzzle device on a threaded barrel to make the barrel no longer be a threaded barrel.

And if it was still legally considered a threaded barrel, then I'd simply grind off the threads before permanently affixing the muzzle device. And then the issue would be totally 100% resolved, right?


Which leaves what I reckon is the trickier issue at hand: whether permanently affixing a muzzle brake would count towards the "manufactured weight" of the pistol. You still interpret that as a "no"? That by permanently attaching extra weight onto the pistol, or assembling the pistol with a heavier barrel, I am not "manufacturing" it?

You said it yourself.  "That by permanently attaching extra weight onto the pistol, or assembling the pistol with a heavier barrel, I am not "manufacturing" it?"

Was the gun manufactured by you?  If so, then you determine the weight at the time the gun was completed in its basic configuration.

Was the gun manufactured by a firearm company and sold complete?  If so, then they will provide you the manufactured weight in its retail configuration.

to me, "manufactured weight" is exactly what it says it is.  if you add aftermarket accessories or replacement parts, that weight doesn't change. 

if they wanted to make you weigh the thing at time of registration, they would have said so in the statute.  "Manufactured weight" is pretty specific IMO.