Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I? (Read 3848 times)

Rico808

Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« on: April 07, 2022, 10:17:38 PM »
Planning to build an AR Pistol with a fixed mag from a stripped lower.

With a fixed mag does round capacity matter?
  Do I have to have someone affix the magazine for me like a SOT3? Or can I do this myself?

What would be the process of registration?
I can only assume…
  1. registered as receiver only
  2. Then register again once built.

Also, if I obtain an AR pistol out of state, would I have to ship it back through an FFL or can it go with me on the plane?

Mahalo 🤙🏽
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

6716J

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2022, 01:27:07 PM »
Planning to build an AR Pistol with a fixed mag from a stripped lower.

With a fixed mag does round capacity matter?
  Do I have to have someone affix the magazine for me like a SOT3? Or can I do this myself?

What would be the process of registration?
I can only assume…
  1. registered as receiver only
  2. Then register again once built.

Also, if I obtain an AR pistol out of state, would I have to ship it back through an FFL or can it go with me on the plane?

Mahalo 🤙🏽

Fixing the mag is such a grey nebulous ambiguous object here. HPD will tell you to weld it even though there is no legal rule to do so. Neither HPD nor the AG will define it, so it's up to you on what you want to do. You can do it yourself with welding, epoxy, bullet button (legal by definition, but not HPD interpretation). Detachable is the key word. The engine in my car is detachable.... but I have to use a tool.

I posed these direct questions to the AG and HPD and finger pointing ensued...

If the State of Hawaii does not have a definition, would the legal definition from the State of California , also in the 9th Circuit, or Maryland be an acceptable definition?
California and Maryland definitions of “detachable magazine” are included below.
a.       California, Title 11, Division 5, Chapter 39, Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines. ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
b.       Maryland, MD Code, Criminal Law, § 4-301: Definitions - Detachable magazine: (f) “Detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from a firearm without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge.

HPD response: Not the Honolulu Police Department’s place to interpret legislative intent / definition.  Would refer this question to the Attorney General’s Office.  HRS 134-8 just uses the term detachable magazine with no further explanation or definition.
AG response: As far as I know, the legislature has not provided a more complete or thorough definition of “detachable magazine” than the one you have already located in the Hawaii Revised Statutes. Until the legislature amends the law to provide a more comprehensive definition as to what constitutes a “detachable magazine”, the Department of the Attorney General is not in a position to adopt or ratify a definition for that term.  I apologize if this response is unhelpful, however, we are constrained by the law and cannot unilaterally accept or reject definitions like the one you provided.
....................................................
HRS 134-1 DEFINITIONS states
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics: (Make it single shot with a KALIKEY BCG or via a "closed" gas block)

     (1)  An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
.....................................................

You've already registered the receiver? Then you're legally good to go, it's registered. No need another time registering or updating.

Legally you can carry it on the plane with you. I do recommend you place the receiver in its own case and the upper in another, or at least have them separated. It would avoid the whole problem of "intent" But 99.9999% of the time nobody but TSA and the ramp agent look at your firearm. If it's legal at your point of departure, nobody will look at it again.


If you want more info, I would suggest talking to the guys at KMConcepts


And I guarantee your mileage will vary
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

bass monkey

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2022, 04:12:47 PM »
Make it a bolt action & you can have removable magazines

Rico808

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2022, 05:16:30 PM »
Thanks.

Between the two evils… I rather take the fixed magazine route. If not I’ll just scrub my plans on a AR pistol.

So let say I build it & take to HPD and they say no.

What happens from there?

Has anyone gone through something like that?

I’d hate for them to take it away.
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2022, 05:38:05 PM »
Thanks.

Between the two evils… I rather take the fixed magazine route. If not I’ll just scrub my plans on a AR pistol.

So let say I build it & take to HPD and they say no.

What happens from there?

Has anyone gone through something like that?

I’d hate for them to take it away.

As long as you don't slap a pistol upper onto it, the receiver is still just a receiver in spite of what you intend for it to become.  The magazine being removable or not shouldn't matter.  As far as the law is concerned, you can just as easily put a legal rifle upper on it, and the magazine by law can be removable.

So, I wouldn't install any of the lower parts unless they are specifically part of the magazine release/lock function.  If you don't install the mag release at all, that might be even better for HPD's evaluation of it.  No eject button = non-removable.   :thumbsup:

Just get past the magazine not being removable, then worry about the build.  If it's registered as "receiver only", it's registered.  If they register it as a pistol after you permanently fix the mag into the magwell, it's registered.  They tell you to bring it back once you finish the build to update the registration, but there's nothing in the law requiring that.  It's voluntary as far as I'm concerned.

** I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.  The laws on this topic are not well defined, and as such are open to interpretation.  How HPD, the AG and reasonable, educated citizens interpret the law may not be the same.  It's normally safest to follow in the footsteps of those who succeeded before you, but that's not a guarantee.  Quite often, it's luck of the draw based on who assists you at HPD.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

aieahound

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2022, 05:54:35 PM »
Don’t listen to that advice in the post above.
Ask dogman for advice.
Just my opinion.
No offense intended Flapp.

They (AR pistols) do legally exist here.
10 round limit though.

mill8316

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2022, 11:34:39 PM »
Don’t listen to that advice in the post above.
Ask dogman for advice.
Just my opinion.
No offense intended Flapp.

They (AR pistols) do legally exist here.
10 round limit though.

I am pretty sure the 10 round limit is only for detachable magazines. A fixed magazine could be any capacity.

aieahound

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2022, 10:35:45 PM »
I wouldn’t know.
But guys here who have actually registered them would.
I’d be discussing out of my okole.  :o

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2022, 12:09:33 AM »
I am pretty sure the 10 round limit is only for detachable magazines. A fixed magazine could be any capacity.

Quote
(c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of
detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which
are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited.  This subsection shall
not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition
which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable
of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.
https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0008.htm

Revolvers are not included in the 10-rd capacity limit as far as I can find.  I'd guess a case could be made if the cylinder is detachable and can be quickly replaced with a loaded one.

Time Mark 3:15 ...

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

aieahound

Re: Non-Assaulting AR Pistol… How Do I?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2022, 05:52:27 PM »
Apparently, I stand corrected.  :thumbsup: