"The government steals and enslaves. We outlawed that many years ago."

K3014......AMEN !!!

Um, Ok.

I agree in spirit but I've never agreed that rights come from God. Its a nice line but the reality is that you have only the rights allowed to you by the government.

You have no God given rights.... or at least God has never lifted a celestial finger to defend them from a government that sees things differently than He does. So the idea of God Given Rights is purely academic.

Um, Ok.

I agree in spirit but I've never agreed that rights come from God. Its a nice line but the reality is that you have only the rights allowed to you by the government.

You have no God given rights.... or at least God has never lifted a celestial finger to defend them from a government that sees things differently than He does. So the idea of God Given Rights is purely academic.

So, to put things in perspective, think about the "If a tree falls in a forest" philosophical question.  Basically, sound only truly exists if there is an ear (receiver) for the vibrations caused by the falling tree.  So the falling tree only makes a sound if there is someone/something there to hear it (one of many answers).

If we had no government, does that mean we have NO RIGHTS? 

If rights do exist in the absence of a government, then explain who determines what rights exist. 

Is there a difference between "legal rights" versus "natural rights"?

So, to put things in perspective, think about the "If a tree falls in a forest" philosophical question.  Basically, sound only truly exists if there is an ear (receiver) for the vibrations caused by the falling tree.  So the falling tree only makes a sound if there is someone/something there to hear it (one of many answers).

If we had no government, does that mean we have NO RIGHTS? 

If rights do exist in the absence of a government, then explain who determines what rights exist. 

Is there a difference between "legal rights" versus "natural rights"?

Great response.  But what is more impressive is how you managed to give a serious response to such an absurd, pile of anti american horse shit.  What is a person doing on this forum if they believe our rights are mere privileges granted by our government at a whim?  So fine.....let's take God out of the equation.....even so, still the most ardent atheists would say there are fundamental rights we are born with - even in the absence of God - that are absolute; that can neither be granted nor taken away by government.  Is that poster for real?

Great response.  But what is more impressive is how you managed to give a serious response to such an absurd, pile of anti american horse shit.  What is a person doing on this forum if they believe our rights are mere privileges granted by our government at a whim?  So fine.....let's take God out of the equation.....even so, still the most ardent atheists would say there are fundamental rights we are born with - even in the absence of God - that are absolute; that can neither be granted nor taken away by government.  Is that poster for real?

Thanks, ButtNutt (and your forum name is really tough to type when having a serious discussion,. BTW!!).   

My impression of the comment from clshade sounds like the kind of thing you hear/read from all the voters who truly think they have no role in our government no matter how many times they hear the phrase, "government of the people, by the people, for the people"

One who truly believes government must exist in order for rights to exist has failed to learn history. They need to learn the history of the world, starting with the Greeks and Romans.  Every great civilization has met with defeat in some fashion because they tried to amass wealth and power for those in control at the expense of those who are producing and providing the services government depends upon for resources (taxes).  No government creates anything.  Government leads and inspires and brings together the resources necessary to perform miracles such as putting men on the moon or building national road systems that improve commerce and everyday lives for individuals. 

The problem is, power and wealth are drugs, and those with access to that power become intoxicated.  They are unable to make rational decisions because the political system makes them addicted, then it threatens loss of their "political opiate" unless they follow the demands of their party and contributors.  The representative government we used to learn about is forever gone, because no handful of delegates can ever truly know what the hundreds of thousands of voters in their districts want or need.  Half the politicians' time is spent working for special interests and big money donors, and the rest is divided between voting how their party instructs and working to be reelected.

It's a sad reality, but it does not mean the Constitution and the Bill of Rights no longer apply.  One thing we have that other nations lacked when their government collapsed ... we have a legal and natural right to protect ourselves, and to own and carry the means necessary to do so.  That above all other rights will protect the rest.  I don't think it will come to that for the simple reason we DO have the means to resist.  It's called detente. 

We also have a system of government that allows the people to change our elected leaders without the need to resort to violence.  The challenge is to educate the masses and spread the truth.  Our media has become an obstacle in that arena.  That too can be changed but takes time.

So, while I understand the basis for the "reality" clshade sees, I believe he overlooks the simple truths which not only made the US the defender of freedom, but the only nation dedicated to helping others win their freedom as well.

We all have rights and freedoms.  While government has the power to limit them, they exist whether or not government approves.

Thanks, ButtNutt (and your forum name is really tough to type when having a serious discussion,. BTW!!).   

My impression of the comment from clshade sounds like the kind of thing you hear/read from all the voters who truly think they have no role in our government no matter how many times they hear the phrase, "government of the people, by the people, for the people"

One who truly believes government must exist in order for rights to exist has failed to learn history. They need to learn the history of the world, starting with the Greeks and Romans.  Every great civilization has met with defeat in some fashion because they tried to amass wealth and power for those in control at the expense of those who are producing and providing the services government depends upon for resources (taxes).  No government creates anything.  Government leads and inspires and brings together the resources necessary to perform miracles such as putting men on the moon or building national road systems that improve commerce and everyday lives for individuals. 

The problem is, power and wealth are drugs, and those with access to that power become intoxicated.  They are unable to make rational decisions because the political system makes them addicted, then it threatens loss of their "political opiate" unless they follow the demands of their party and contributors.  The representative government we used to learn about is forever gone, because no handful of delegates can ever truly know what the hundreds of thousands of voters in their districts want or need.  Half the politicians' time is spent working for special interests and big money donors, and the rest is divided between voting how their party instructs and working to be reelected.

It's a sad reality, but it does not mean the Constitution and the Bill of Rights no longer apply.  One thing we have that other nations lacked when their government collapsed ... we have a legal and natural right to protect ourselves, and to own and carry the means necessary to do so.  That above all other rights will protect the rest.  I don't think it will come to that for the simple reason we DO have the means to resist.  It's called detente. 

We also have a system of government that allows the people to change our elected leaders without the need to resort to violence.  The challenge is to educate the masses and spread the truth.  Our media has become an obstacle in that arena.  That too can be changed but takes time.

So, while I understand the basis for the "reality" clshade sees, I believe he overlooks the simple truths which not only made the US the defender of freedom, but the only nation dedicated to helping others win their freedom as well.

We all have rights and freedoms.  While government has the power to limit them, they exist whether or not government approves.

Excellent treatise.
If you haven't yet, buy the book "The Liberty Amendments" by Mark Levin, study it, and prepare yourself for the process of pressuring our state legislators to select delegates to attend a national convention to propose amendments to our federal constitution that will restore the constitutional republic that is now all but gone.  If that fails it's over, but it is the only realistic option we have so it is well worth the effort.  While most of our lefty legislators will be opposed to this process, I believe there are a few who will be enthusiastic about the prospect of gutting and castrating the bloated monster our federal government has become.
Prepare yourself!

but the reality is that you have only the rights allowed to you by the government.

Ah, the statist viewpoint is heard from.

Considering who you voted for and this statist belief, I truly wonder why you are on a website devoted to defending our natural right to defense with arms.  This has to be a very alien place for you.