Why is anybody taking this obvious attempt to create a diversion seriously?  There is no discussion. 

Can a bullet make it to the alleged point of impact at a house?  In theory, yes.

Is it likely to have come from Koko Head?  Not very.  Extremely improbable.

Are there other scenarios that make much more sense?  Absolutely.

Is the range being closed for safety, or for pure liability and political reasons?  Knee-jerk reaction to an unsubstantiated claim and unproven theory made in part by a chronic complainer with an agenda.

After millions of rounds fired, why are there not other claims of "found rounds?"  Because it is bordering on impossible for the incident to occur accidentally.

How likely is it one person in Hawaii Kai has personally found multiple supposedly stray rounds, and personally had bullets "whiz by his head" on the KH trail?  The odds are extremely unlikely.  He is either psychic, being targeted, or lying.

All the science in the world will neither prove nor disprove the accusations.  Without a witness or a confession, we will never know where the rounds originated.  This is not an episode of CSI!

DNFTT!

A heavier bullet's mass should allow it to carry further.  I wish we had an idea of the weight and type of bullet that allegedly found it way out of the range.  That in itself would go far as to determine if it is plausible the round came from Kokohead.  IMO, if they ever do repair the rifle range, the restrictions implemented will be so severe,  the rifles many people own now might as well be converted into paperweights.  This itself is an abomination to your rights.  You own it but you can't shoot it anywhere on Oahu? What good is your right to keep and bear arms then? 

Why is anybody taking this obvious attempt to create a diversion seriously?  There is no discussion. 

Can a bullet make it to the alleged point of impact at a house?  In theory, yes.

Is it likely to have come from Koko Head?  Not very.  Extremely improbable.

Are there other scenarios that make much more sense?  Absolutely.

Is the range being closed for safety, or for pure liability and political reasons?  Knee-jerk reaction to an unsubstantiated claim and unproven theory made in part by a chronic complainer with an agenda.

After millions of rounds fired, why are there not other claims of "found rounds?"  Because it is bordering on impossible for the incident to occur accidentally.

How likely is it one person in Hawaii Kai has personally found multiple supposedly stray rounds, and personally had bullets "whiz by his head" on the KH trail?  The odds are extremely unlikely.  He is either psychic, being targeted, or lying.

All the science in the world will neither prove nor disprove the accusations.  Without a witness or a confession, we will never know where the rounds originated.  This is not an episode of CSI!

DNFTT!

A heavier bullet's mass should allow it to carry further.  I wish we had an idea of the weight and type of bullet that allegedly found it way out of the range.  That in itself would go far as to determine if it is plausible the round came from Kokohead.  IMO, if they ever do repair the rifle range, the restrictions implemented will be so severe,  the rifles many people own now might as well be converted into paperweights.  This itself is an abomination to your rights.  You own it but you can't shoot it anywhere on Oahu? What good is your right to keep and bear arms then? 

All seems irrelevant since the range is closed.  Haven't seen any posts from OP lately so seems like a fire was lit just to watch it burn.

All seems irrelevant since the range is closed.  Haven't seen any posts from OP lately so seems like a fire was lit just to watch it burn.

If you really think about it, it really comes down to the safety aspect of the issue.  We definitely DO NOT WANT a person to get hurt or killed because of our range.  This WILL cause the low informed public a real cause to shut er down permanently.   The real discussion should be where and how are we going to persuade the city to open up a area where rifle shooters can do the required safe handling and practice without endangering the public.  If indeed it is the requirement of law, the city and county MUST designate a place to do this safely.  Of course this is all IMHO as IANAL.

If you really think about it, it really comes down to the safety aspect of the issue.  We definitely DO NOT WANT a person to get hurt or killed because of our range.  This WILL cause the low informed public a real cause to shut er down permanently.   The real discussion should be where and how are we going to persuade the city to open up a area where rifle shooters can do the required safe handling and practice without endangering the public.  If indeed it is the requirement of law, the city and county MUST designate a place to do this safely.  Of course this is all IMHO as IANAL.

Point is, the range is closed.  Someone posted something they knew would get a response.  Now, as part of the public record on this forum, it can be presented everywhere (including meetings with the mayor and neighborhood board meetings) for purposes to serve certain agendas.  Safety is of course the main concern.  If just one bullet has fallen in just one yard, that is unacceptable.  The course should be to do what it takes to make the range safe for ALL not just to push some sand into a pile and call it good.  Dispute the issue all you want.  As long as there is a danger (even that perceived by the "low informed public") to even one, then that must be addressed.  Imagine if you lived in that neighborhood and had your kids playing in the yard all the while wondering about this issue.  Not very comforting.  Is it possible this is a lie or that the bullets came from somewhere else?  Sure is.  But it is also possible that it is not.  So based on that," if it will save just one child..........."

Point is, the range is closed.  Someone posted something they knew would get a response.  Now, as part of the public record on this forum, it can be presented everywhere (including meetings with the mayor and neighborhood board meetings) for purposes to serve certain agendas.  Safety is of course the main concern.  If just one bullet has fallen in just one yard, that is unacceptable.  The course should be to do what it takes to make the range safe for ALL not just to push some sand into a pile and call it good.  Dispute the issue all you want.  As long as there is a danger (even that perceived by the "low informed public") to even one, then that must be addressed.  Imagine if you lived in that neighborhood and had your kids playing in the yard all the while wondering about this issue.  Not very comforting.  Is it possible this is a lie or that the bullets came from somewhere else?  Sure is.  But it is also possible that it is not.  So based on that," if it will save just one child..........."

So what would be your solution? 

I think the OP might have gotten scared of the responses.

But I agree with the points Heavies and BUD just said that safety is the first concern. I think the city's decision to close the range to repair it is an appropriate response to make sure no one gets injured pending investigation of the claimed bullets found.

If the bullets did come from the range, then the city needs to fix it after years of neglect. We fortunately have supportive city officials right now. So let's count our blessings -- if anything is going to get done right by the city, this would be the time.

Now let's encourage the city to move their butts and get the range fixed and reopened as soon and safely as possible.  Keep the pressure on... City Council continues to ask the Mayor who asks the Park Director for an update.

Galatians 6:9

Interesting post. My question is, from the 100 yd line, what is the angle that it would take to clear the crater?

Maximum Ranges (yards) centre fire rifle-cartridges 223 Rem, 308 Win, 30-06, direct fire, 2750 – 4400 yards.  http://www.saps.gov.za/crime_prevention/firearms/forms/sabsstd.pdf 


.30 caliber ricochets can depart a steel plate with 75% of their energy retained.  Gunshot Wounds:  Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic…, 2nd Edition, 1999, by Vincent J.M. DiMaio.


U-tube tracer ricochet videos (not Koko Head)

 



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEoQtwIwAw&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DgZW9I9Ka2B0&ei=DuG4UvW8K5G6oQTemICAAQ&usg=AFQjCNG67c8CVhgpmUdN-XIyhWDKZMPxrg&sig2=5qGIHG9nc7sEgCPNuPY3xw&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cGU

  fast forward to 1:54 to see end of video for tracer ricochets in slow motion


Possible trajectory of alleged bullet strike, Koko Kai Place, approximately 2,550 yards directly downrange from the Koko Head rifle range firing line, behind the Koko Head Crater rim which rises a maximum of 678 feet above the floor of the range at that point, see:  http://www.hawaiirifleassociation.org/?start=3
  .

I have that book. Your quote is incorrect. You are a liar.

- Ryan

Ephesians 4:25,26

"for we are all members of one body."

Ryan07: can you tell us what the correct quote would be?

For what it's worth, I know the OP. He's not anti-gun by any means and is quite knowledgeable about firearms and ballistics....and while you may argue the possibility of a bullet strike at the alleged homes/cars, the fact of the matter is that there is documentation of range deficiencies and limitations from years ago. So, all we need is for someone to claim a bullet strike causing injury and the range is closed for good. Better to take advantage of a friendly and supportive government and make the necessary improvements so that any such future claim can be discussed in light of adopting the most recent and stringent standards.

It looked like the book cited was saying that a bullet striking a steel plate can have up to 75% retained energy as long as the angle of incidence stays under 30 degrees. Anything higher than that and there is a massive decline in the retained energy.

Which brings me back to the question, does anyone know what angle the ridge is at from the 100 yd line? 200? 400?

Interesting post. My question is, from the 100 yd line, what is the angle that it would take to clear the crater?

Over 50 degrees.

.

I'm not going to directly quote the author as I am too lazy at the moment to cite the book and I am on my phone.

The paragraphs that talk about bullet ricochet were referencing a study with 9mm Luger and 45 ACP.  Angles of incident up to 30 degrees for both calibers off the steel plate resulted in bullets that stayed in one piece and retained 75% of their impact energy. It then says any angle greater than 30 degrees, retained energy decreases. The only mention of a .30 caliber is in a table of critical angleson water.

The top of the crater is 850ft from range level at a distance of 3,150ft from the firing line.

A 308 150gr bullet fired at a low angle hitting the nearest home, 2,500ft away,  would shoot 2,640 inches (220ft) high at a distance of 3,150ft.  So if shot at the correct angle to hit the house, it would hit the side of koko head first.  It would hit around the 440yd gong area.  Shooting angle is about 285MOA, so almost 5 degrees up.


Not sure what high angle would be.  Anyone know an online ballistic calculator that can do high angles?

The barrel of the rifle won't be able to clear the old roof when held at 60 degrees or higher inclination. You'd have to step out from under the roof to clear a shot like that.

.

The bullet would also be coming down at almost 75 degrees at the distance of the house = not going through a window and ending up on the counter.

Exactly.  There is no way in H a ricochet going straight up enough to clear the CRATER WALL then traverse the distance and also MAGICALLY go sideways to break a window!  And people believed it!?!  We get yelled at for any infraction, where was the yelling at him to prove it or shut it up.  No, instead the range gets completely shut down.  Guilty without any proof just like that which is b.s.  Yes want to err on the side of caution but how about common sense. 

Look I have no problem with expending our tax dollars for repairs and improvements but the way this went down is still suspect and underhanded and now we find our activities will be more curtailed too.  I give everyone credit for hanging in there and making the best of it so far.

For the lurkers these are my opinions alone, draw your own conclusions, YMMV, EPA MPG may vary, look both ways before crossing the street, chew food thoroughly before swallowing, and conserve water, thank you.

ps. YDN is a hottie.