Drug use and our failed reasoning (Read 11964 times)

ren

Drug use and our failed reasoning
« on: February 03, 2014, 07:41:04 AM »
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/02/inside-philip-seymour-hoffman-s-apartment.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29#url=/articles/2014/02/02/inside-philip-seymour-hoffman-s-apartment.html
So there is another illegal drug death and there is a nationwide push for the legalization of another drug - marijuana?
After every shooting, there is a call for more gun laws - I don't understand the logic reasoning.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:38:40 AM by ren »
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survivorman

Re: Drug use and our failed logic
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 08:03:41 AM »
It seems to me that just about all of society's woes can be attributed to moral decay. Be it lying politicians that think that if they are not called on it, it was not a lie. Or a shooter that puts their ill feelings above the a safety of others.  These suspects are further enabled by talking heads who find any number of excuses for inexcusable behavior.
I'm not a bible thumper, but it seems that a lot of the worlds problems can be attributed to a war on god or at least what religion stands for..... Accountability.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 08:56:15 AM by survivorman »

BUD

Re: Drug use and our failed logic
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 08:35:06 AM »
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/02/inside-philip-seymour-hoffman-s-apartment.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29#url=/articles/2014/02/02/inside-philip-seymour-hoffman-s-apartment.html
So there is another illegal drug death and there is a nationwide push for the legalization of another drug - marijuana?
After every shooting, there is a call for more gun laws - I don't understand the logic.


That's because it is not logic. Just emotion.
It is what it is.

hvybarrels

Re: Drug use and our failed logic
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 09:26:17 AM »
the only things the war on drugs is good for are making sure the for-profit gulags are full of nonviolent offenders and bankrolling gangs and terrorist organizations. talk to some ex cops who aren't drinking the cool aid and they will tell you it's a straight up wealth extraction scheme.
I’m becoming clinically undepressed and thinking about beginning it all.

Funtimes

Re: Drug use and our failed logic
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 02:52:56 PM »
the only things the war on drugs is good for are making sure the for-profit gulags are full of nonviolent offenders and bankrolling gangs and terrorist organizations. talk to some ex cops who aren't drinking the cool aid and they will tell you it's a straight up wealth extraction scheme.

And you think the Cartels and gangs won't move to the next best thing?  It's not like most of these guys doing significant time *only* had drugs...
Check out the Hawaii Defense Foundation.
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Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

Q

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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 03:25:11 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 03:18:38 PM by Q »

hvybarrels

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 05:29:27 PM »
drugs are guaranteed fast cash for criminals. the same kind of demand for any other illicit activity can't be matched. it would put a huge dent in organized crime bankrolls. plus we would save money on cops and prisons and all that useless homeland security apparatus. addiction is a disease not a crime. but just like the medical system making money off sick people all these bloated government agencies are addicted to drug war money. take away the incentive and they all have to go figure out something productive to do instead of throwing our tax dollars in a hole and setting it on fire.
I’m becoming clinically undepressed and thinking about beginning it all.

pastordennis

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Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 09:13:01 PM »
Survivorman, you hit the nail on the head.Moral Decay. The Bible BEING THE HIGHEST MORAL STANDARD.God being the highest moral, ethical being. His ways are higher, His thoughts are higher. AND He can back it up with ACTION.As Jesus said to this one fellow....." You are close to the Kingdom of Heaven". Mary Jane is bad. Real bad. It is a drug. Period. Legalize drugs that will kill'ya, but not guns that will save'ya. And guns are a constitutionally protected right. But Drugs?????? Dont see the connection.

survivorman

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 08:38:38 AM »
Another slippery slope. Liberals love slippery slopes because the slope leads to their agenda, a utopia with no rules. Which would be great if people would regulate themselves other than settling for the lowest common denominator.  Without a moral compass any behavior is acceptable.  There is a fine line between liberty and lawlessness.
Civil unions=homosexual marriage
Healthcare reform=socialized Medicine
Commercial marijuana=legalized drugs=more junkies=more crime=Etc..
What kind of place will we be leaving for our kids and theirs?

Strange how all of these slippery slopes all slide to the left and downhill. 

Scary times we are living in.



Tom_G

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 09:44:17 AM »
There's no slipery slope here.  Marijuana isn't illegal because it's bad for you, marijuana is illegal because William Randolph Hearst did not want commercial hemp competing with his empire of pulpwood paper.  He manufactured the news, the screaming headlines, used his deep pockets to buy votes... you know, the usual.

Marijuana is less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco.  It's a completely different beast than the drugs we should be scared of: cocaine, meth, ice, crack, heroine, etc. 
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Funtimes

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 09:47:53 AM »
drugs are guaranteed fast cash for criminals. the same kind of demand for any other illicit activity can't be matched. it would put a huge dent in organized crime bankrolls.
1.) You take one form of money away, you can be sure that they will find others to supplement it.  I'm not sure, and I can try to research it, but I imagine the coke, heroine, and meth distribution is more money than weed.

plus we would save money on cops and prisons and all that useless homeland security apparatus.
I just so happen to know many of the individuals locked up for drug crimes. After looking at many of their records, it seems that it was just the low hanging fruit and easy prosecutions.  I have yet to see a single guy locked up for drugs where I'm thinking, "damn, he was a good dude." Those guys may exist, but I think they are few and far between.   An example, is an idiot I was researching the other night... locked up for felony possession.  He had like 10 other suspected felonies that were not pursued.  He had felonies that they arrested him on in conjunction with the drug charges - but the drug charge was the easiest to prove.  He has been in and out of the court system since eleven years old.



Check out the Hawaii Defense Foundation.
HDF on Facebook
Defender of the Accused in Arkansas Courts
Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

Funtimes

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 09:48:50 AM »
Marijuana is less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco.  It's a completely different beast than the drugs we should be scared of: cocaine, meth, ice, crack, heroine, etc.

Tom there are pathologists who strongly disagree with that.  With the modifications to the plant and growing methods, pot of today is not the pot of your years =p.
Check out the Hawaii Defense Foundation.
HDF on Facebook
Defender of the Accused in Arkansas Courts
Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

punaperson

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 10:06:50 AM »
So there is another illegal drug death and there is a nationwide push for the legalization of another drug - marijuana?
After every shooting, there is a call for more gun laws - I don't understand the logic reasoning.
The truth value of a conclusion is dependent upon the validity of the premises and the inductive or deductive method.

In one case, if you assume as a premise that 1. "guns" are bad (cause harm), and 2. the state ought to regulate bad things, then the state ought to regulate guns more strictly in order that less harm occurs. I'd challenge both premises on several counts. There needs to be a scientific evaluation of the cost/benefit analysis of firearm ownership, which may reveal that the benefits outweigh the costs, or that they are approximately even. If one believes the state ought to regulate things that cause harm, then things that cause more harm than firearm ownership (e.g. motor vehicles, alcohol, tobacco, medical malpractice, etc.) ought to be more severely restricted/regulated than those things that cause less harm (unless you postulate that irrational prejudice or bias is valid).

In the other case, the argument is 1. the state ought to regulate substances/things based upon their cost/benefit analysis of harm caused, 2. cannabis and other currently illegal drugs cause far less harm than many things the state currently deems legal (alcohol, motor vehicles, tobacco, incompetent doctors [lack of sufficient regulation], etc.), therefore the state ought to apply rationally appropriate regulations to cannabis, which means it ought to be regulated less restrictively than alcohol and motor vehicles (since they cause more harm). Someone asserting that cannabis and heroin are virtually identical in consequences of use and therefore ought to be accorded the same state regulation will be in the untenable position of producing any credible evidence to substantiate their claim. Much in the same way, the people who point to various "advocate" research from the CDC, et. al. about the extreme dangers of gun ownership have nothing but highly questionable methodologically unsound pseudo-science as evidence for their claims. Neither of which will stand up to critical scrutiny.

I'd be curious to hear your explanation for what criteria the state ought to use in determining how much of what kind of harm justifies state regulation, and to what degree, and where exactly to draw those lines and how. Please clearly and directly apply whatever criteria you use directly to alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, firearms, and motor vehicles. I've never seen arguments to ban/heavily restrict firearms and cannabis, and leave alcohol and motor vehicles relatively unrestricted that wasn't logically fallacious and/or based upon evidence that was fraudulent or the result of incompetent or biased research.

punaperson

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 10:10:12 AM »
Tom there are pathologists who strongly disagree with that.  With the modifications to the plant and growing methods, pot of today is not the pot of your years =p.
Chris, please provide me with the links to the peer reviewed studies evaluating the relative health risks and consequences of tobacco and cannabis where the outcome is that cannabis causes more harm.

Or were you being sarcastic in the same way that there are physicians, sociologists, psychologists, statisticians, and economists that strongly agree that gun ownership is dangerous, and that there is no place for civilian gun ownership?

survivorman

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 11:13:23 AM »
There's no slipery slope here.  Marijuana isn't illegal because it's bad for you,

Marijuana is less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco.  It's a completely different beast than the drugs we should be scared of: cocaine, meth, ice, crack, heroine, etc.

That IS the slope.....first it's weed, then what? 

punaperson

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2014, 11:21:56 AM »
That IS the slope.....first it's weed, then what?
Alcohol? Off-label prescription pharmaceuticals? What kind of slopes are THOSE?

survivorman

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2014, 11:26:48 AM »
I'm beside myself on this, on this, on one hand I believe one should be free to do what he wants, but skeptical that left to their own devices idiots will behave. 
I could go for some legislation legalizing all drugs, but when the loser transitions from F'ing up his life to impacting others he gets hammered and removed from society.

punaperson

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 12:25:10 PM »
I'm beside myself on this, on this, on one hand I believe one should be free to do what he wants, but skeptical that left to their own devices idiots will behave. 
I could go for some legislation legalizing all drugs, but when the loser transitions from F'ing up his life to impacting others he gets hammered and removed from society.
As is said "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose".

The state would have some kind of interest in protecting the rights and safety of citizens by restricting access to seriously and unequivocably harmful substances and attempting to prevent individuals from harming innocent people, animals and property (via laws prohibiting such behavior and punishments for transgressions). This would punish people who consume substances and THEN endanger or harm others by operating a vehicle while impaired, etc. I.e. If it hurts no one else, government butt out.

As for individual choices as to what to consume... THAT is a slippery slope for the state to get involved in. The only real issue that is legitimate is if the state pays for/subsidizes medical care (how is that their job?) and there is overwhelming proof that some substance ends up costing taxpayers huge amounts for health care. Thus tobacco is illegal. Oh, wait, I guess they don't base their policies on a rational basis. If someone wants to be stoned or drunk occasionally or frequently or all the time, and they harm no one else in doing so, what business is it of the state? Of course the state will invoke some "moral" privilege claiming the right to protect citizens from themselves who are too ignorant to take care of themselves properly. Thus alcohol illegality. Oh, wait, it's cannabis illegality that they morally object to. And gambling. And exchange of value for sexual activities. And trans fats. And carbonated sugar-sweetened drinks that are over a certain size. And more than 7/10/15 rounds in a magazine. I don't think there can be a evidence-based rationale for any of it. If you don't hurt anyone else, none of the state's business. Unless you like Big Brother.

Growler67

Re: Drug use and our failed reasoning
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 07:02:21 PM »
Marijuana is less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco.

It is actually worse than tobacco.....most smokers inhale then exhale....with marijuana, then inhale and hold it.  Everything that is bad about smoking is made worse when forceably held in the lungs.  Maybe there is no added arsenic or some of the other "flavoring ingredients", but tobacco doesn't have natural resins in it either.  You DO know what resins are....don't you?....Glue....all natural glue....just like the tar in cigarettes.
Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfection is an Ideal and thus cannot exist in the real world. To seek perfection is to set yourself up for failure. Instead, strive for Excellence. Excellence is an attainable goal - Coach George Yamamoto, Mililani High School, RIP

Q

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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 07:11:03 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 03:14:40 PM by Q »