Whatever these people did to attract this idiots attention aside, he was definitely showing intent to do bodily harm.

Under these circumstances, these simple rules have served me well;

Hit first.

Hit hard.

Hit often.

Repeat as needed until threat is neutralized.

Showing intent or posturing is not actually causing harm. The easiest solution is to walk away.

Here is your simple rules, I added the penalty.

1. Hit first = Jail for assault. You have now become the aggressor.

2. Hit hard= Jail, see rule 1. Plus, imagine if he falls and hits his head and he dies. Prison time.

3. Hit often= Jail, and prison because you kept beating him after the threat was neutralized. See rule 1 again.

So you're going to use deadly force on someone because they you verbally told them to back off and they didn't???

The firearm should never be looked at as an equalizer or the upper hand as you described it. It is a tool used as a last resort to defend your life or someone else's life, after all other options have been exhausted, from deadly force, rape, or kidnapping.

You are the type of person I hope and pray never have the opportunity to carry concealed because you will fuck it up for others by power tripping.

Have fun in prison.

 In most other places around the country, what that individual did constitutes assault.  Hawaii has slightly different takes on things, and partners up assault and battery.  So in this State this nutbags actions are considered Terroristic Threatening, at a minimum; an eager prosecutor could also probably swing TT1 on the first two elements of that offense.  Additionally, because of his language and contempt for race, I gladly agree with them pushing a hate crime enhancement towards this individual.

Not only did the man in blue shirt ask him to stop, but the individual attempted on numerous occasions to retreat from the individual, who aggressively continued his pursuit.    What tool is the individual supposed to use against an potentially agile and youthful attacker? 

Death can happen on the first swing; which is why people don't get in trouble for shooting someone who is punching them.   Serious bodily injury can be caused with kicks and punches as well. 

The only thing missing here is 100% absolute clear intent.  The dumbass only said that he was going to smash the phone; when he walks away though, some of that language sounds more threatening than what was said up close.  If he walked back towards the individuals, I would consider that clear demonstration of intent.  All that is let now is opportunity / capability.     Does the subject have the capability of causing serious bodily harm? Yes. He's a young agile individual.   Does he have opportunity? Yes. He is within physical proximity to me.  At this point you have essentially met the use of force requirements in almost all States across the country.  Hawaii has some pretty weak laws in this regard, but that's fine.   In Florida, a person would only need to prove that we thought that the forcible felony was imminent, which I think the video shows pretty clearly; it especially would have shown that way if the individual stood his ground and told the guy to go away.

Showing intent or posturing is not actually causing harm. The easiest solution is to walk away.

Here is your simple rules, I added the penalty.

1. Hit first = Jail for assault. You have now become the aggressor.

2. Hit hard= Jail, see rule 1. Plus, imagine if he falls and hits his head and he dies. Prison time.

3. Hit often= Jail, and prison because you kept beating him after the threat was neutralized. See rule 1 again.

1. Wrong - you were within your rights to respond with force.  You were authorized to respond with lethal force if you felt death or serious bodily harm could be involved.

2. Wrong - you are still on self defense.

3. Wrong -  He even says stop when the threat is neutralized, which is his way of saying threat stops.


Additional points - I'm not going to abandon my wife at that table.  No way in hell. 

I also would have had no questions about spraying him.  If he starts swinging, then that is him escalating the altercation to a point where lethal force is nearly without question authorized.   You can't say I started the fight when you ran over to me. And, just to say, because someone will be like "you shouldn't tell someone what to do with their dog."  People are well within their rights to tell you to stop doing that, it doesn't mean you get to come up to and threaten harm.

1. Wrong - you were within your rights to respond with force.  You were authorized to respond with lethal force if you felt death or serious bodily harm could be involved.

2. Wrong - you are still on self defense.

3. Wrong -  He even says stop when the threat is neutralized, which is his way of saying threat stops.

For most of the video he was just mouthing. At one point he Has his hands in his pockets. I saw no imminent threat. Only posturing and a lot of verbal aggression.

For most of the video he was just mouthing. At one point he Has his hands in his pockets. I saw no imminent threat. Only posturing and a lot of verbal aggression.

That's terroristic threatening and some demonstration of intent.  If you look at my posts, I stated more along then lines of when he reached for the girls cell phone.  If the other individual stopped and was pushed or touched in any manner it would have been game on.  Also, posturing that close puts you in the "imminent" category.  Go posture on a police officer like that, see what happens.   You will most likely get tased or sprayed.  If you swing, they may hurt you even more.

People just don't understand: You don't just get to do this shit to other people.   Not sure why people think it's ok.  It may have been how you grew up; you might even be used to it, or have been a part of it. But the larger portions of the country - won't stand for shit like this. 

That's terroristic threatening and some demonstration of intent.  If you look at my posts, I stated more along then lines of when he reached for the girls cell phone.  Posturing that close puts you in the "imminent" category.  Go posture on a police officer like that, see what happens.

You're not a police officer. You don't get to use that as an example. It would be different with a police officer because the officer has a weapon and he has to maintain a reactionary gap.

You're not a police officer. You don't get to use that as an example. It would be different with a police officer because the officer has a weapon and he has to maintain a reactionary gap.

Lol #facepalm.   How is it different with a cop?  Do you think that a Citizens does not get to maintain a 'reactionary gap' as you say to?

 I've stood watch for law enforcement agencies carrying a gun, could you please tell me where this difference really falls into play?  I've also carried a gun and stood armed posts in foreign countries where we are drilled routinely on use of force.  The only reactionary gap I need to know is how close before a person will close distance and make contact / do harm to me.  If they are within that distance then it just furthers the opportunity element.

Because the officer has a gun, in plain view, within reach. You don't. The officer has a duty to address the problem. You can retreat, the officer can't.


Additionally, I guarantee the officer wouldn't shoot him because he was aggressive, as some people on here suggested they would do.

Because the officer has a gun, in plain view, within reach. You don't. The officer has a duty to address the problem. You can retreat, the officer can't.

Plain clothes/undercover officer with concealed firearm? He'd "retreat" in the face of this behavior?

So you're going to use deadly force on someone because they you verbally told them to back off and they didn't???

The firearm should never be looked at as an equalizer or the upper hand as you described it. It is a tool used as a last resort to defend your life or someone else's life, after all other options have been exhausted, from deadly force, rape, or kidnapping.

You are the type of person I hope and pray never have the opportunity to carry concealed because you will fuck it up for others by power tripping.

Have fun in prison.

Totally agree!

Speaking of cowards....weren't you the guy who was talking all sorts of smack on the Roosevelt post, yet backed off when ImKu invited you to bench 80?

Unlike u, I don't smack talk,  and I welcomed meeting him.  For better or worse, I don't have as much fear. 

Obviously, he would identify himself, call for a uniformed patrol unit and attempt to defuse the situation. Again, He would not shoot the guy. 

Because the officer has a gun, in plain view, within reach. You don't. The officer has a duty to address the problem. You can retreat, the officer can't.


Additionally, I guarantee the officer wouldn't shoot him because he was aggressive, as some people on here suggested they would do.

The guy already backed up.  And no, I said you would almost with certainty get tased or sprayed - or hit with a baton.  Those actions could lead to additional force. 

I'm not really sure where you have studied or been trained on use of force, but it seems this conversation is going around in circles.  You can believe or do what you want, but I know that for myself, I've been trained by 4 different commands on use of force, and stood watch understanding that use of force in multiple countries, multiple ports, and multiple posts as a sentry, roving security patrol, and auxiliary police officer.  I also know that every firearms training company I have gone to - use of force is covered to the best of their knowledge based on current standards.  Moreover, the Agency that I am currently with also teaches use of force up to and including lethal force. 

That's terroristic threatening and some demonstration of intent.  If you look at my posts, I stated more along then lines of when he reached for the girls cell phone.  If the other individual stopped and was pushed or touched in any manner it would have been game on.  Also, posturing that close puts you in the "imminent" category.  Go posture on a police officer like that, see what happens.   You will most likely get tased or sprayed.  If you swing, they may hurt you even more.

People just don't understand: You don't just get to do this shit to other people.   Not sure why people think it's ok.  It may have been how you grew up; you might even be used to it, or have been a part of it. But the larger portions of the country - won't stand for shit like this.

ok, i realize that if we get CCW, we will most likely get education in this area,  but at what point in this video would it be ok to let the aggressor know you are armed?
do you do the "expose the gun trick" like in the cowboy movies where they sweep their long jackets out of the way
do you blade yourself, put your hand on the hangun grip and get in weapons retention mode?
do you draw and keep the weapon at low ready with your finger off the trigger?
when and where do you do each step?

Lol we are giving this guy a lot of attention that he don't deserve. I wouldn't pull out a middle finger on this chump . If he scares  you to pull out a weapon then it's no wonder your on a 2a forum . The only thing that looks threatening is probably his breath . There's nothing a good stiff jab followed by a right hook / right upper cut can't handle in this situation. It's a pit bull affect.  He'll bark but you must not fear his bite . If you do your already bitten.

That's where the problem lies. Military use of force, while similar, is different from civilian use of force. At one time, The military was training soldiers in country to kick the guy in the nuts as a distraction before attempting to flexicuff them.   

Showing intent or posturing is not actually causing harm. The easiest solution is to walk away.

Here is your simple rules, I added the penalty.

1. Hit first = Jail for assault. You have now become the aggressor.

2. Hit hard= Jail, see rule 1. Plus, imagine if he falls and hits his head and he dies. Prison time.

3. Hit often= Jail, and prison because you kept beating him after the threat was neutralized. See rule 1 again.

My friend, what I posted, I learned from hard experience. I've tried it both ways. I've found that my face hurts less if I don't get hit.

Waiting for someone to hit you is stupid if they're showing the intent to do so.

But hey, do what you want, it's your face. I'm only speaking for myself.

ok, i realize that if we get CCW, we will most likely get education in this area,  but at what point in this video would it be ok to let the aggressor know you are armed?
do you do the "expose the gun trick" like in the cowboy movies where they sweep their long jackets out of the way
do you blade yourself, put your hand on the hangun grip and get in weapons retention mode?
do you draw and keep the weapon at low ready with your finger off the trigger?
when and where do you do each step?

In this situation, You never expose your gun. You accept the added maturity and responsibility that comes with carrying CCW, grab your shit and leave.

If you are carrying a gun so you can flex your muscles and say I got a gun at every opportunity you don't deserve nor have the maturity to be allowed to carry CCW.

ok, i realize that if we get CCW, we will most likely get education in this area,  but at what point in this video would it be ok to let the aggressor know you are armed?
do you do the "expose the gun trick" like in the cowboy movies where they sweep their long jackets out of the way
do you blade yourself, put your hand on the hangun grip and get in weapons retention mode?
do you draw and keep the weapon at low ready with your finger off the trigger?
when and where do you do each step?

You wouldn't want to let him know you are armed until that gun is coming out under your control.  If you did the "cowboy sweep" so to speak, it could alert him prematurely and then he could make a run for your gun or you and then you are stuck without it; this could also actually escalate the situation.  Think about the Deedy trial where the witnesses basically said Elderts started taunting back, "So what, You gonna shoot me? Shoot me!" etc.  Overall, you have to be able to justify it, and the way I teach people is that you need to decide: Is this about to be the worse day of my life and can I die or be harmed if I don't respond? If you can't answer both those yes - then you are not there yet. 

Here is how I would try to play it out:

If a man approached my family in that manner, I would start out with verbal (Go away.  Leave us alone.  We are calling the police; and have someone do that last one). Recording is great, but you had (3) people at that table who could have been on the phone with 911.
If my family was at the table, it makes it difficult to just keep walking.  I'm not going to just abandon all of our property and leave.  I don't think anyone would do that.  I would try to use that table as positioning and continue with #1.
If it keeps going at this point, we can try some verbal judo.  "Look man - no one here wants problems, and you don't want to go to jail today."  You can develop key phrases that are catch phrases to throw someone off-guard, making them think about the question / statement a little bit.
Next, I might back up some but with my arms extended around the chest or facial area.  What would likely happen here is either he walks into me or pushes my hands away (both are forms of battery, which in most places is a forcible felony) and it just adds to the use of force justification.

 At this point, it may be a go to present the firearm.  Only you can decide this based on how threatened you are, how serious you think the threat is, and how likely it would be to cause bodily harm or death etc.  If and when you do, it's best to have it out in close retention at this distance.  Chances are when this guy sees a gun - he's going to go away (most incidents end like that).  If he chooses to proceed, well, that's a decision he made and not you.  This should also be accompanied with orders and primal language most likely.  "GET THE FUCK BACK." et.   As citizens, we are held to a much lower standard in the use of force; aside from that, individuals who are instructors or extensively trained, will likely be held to a higher standard as well.


For me, up until the point he tried to grab the phone with physical threats (robbery), I would have continued verbally.  If I had spray on me, the guy would have got that as soon as I could get the can out.   As far as retreating, we are also only required to retreat if we can do so with complete safety. Leaving my wife alone doesn't fit that description to me; that stuff is not happening - I won't leave her in a situation like that it's just cowardly. I would tell her to go away and she would likely listen.   

Lol we are giving this guy a lot of attention that he don't deserve. I wouldn't pull out a middle finger on this chump . If he scares  you to pull out a weapon then it's no wonder your on a 2a forum . The only thing that looks threatening is probably his breath . There's nothing a good stiff jab followed by a right hook / right upper cut can't handle in this situation. It's a pit bull affect.  He'll bark but you must not fear his bite . If you do your already bitten.

+1

Totally agree!Unlike u, I don't smack talk,  and I welcomed meeting him.  For better or worse, I don't have as much fear.

LOL.

I really did laugh out loud on this one.