Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now? (Read 181011 times)

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2014, 05:01:38 AM »
Opinions take a long time to release, and then appeals, and then more opinions.  This is kind of different; we should have had answers months ago.
Would you happen to know if the coming opinion will ONLY allow or deny intervenor status for Kamala Harris, or will it also include a ruling about re-hearing and/or en banc hearing as she requested?  :shaka:

Funtimes

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2014, 01:30:56 PM »
Would you happen to know if the coming opinion will ONLY allow or deny intervenor status for Kamala Harris, or will it also include a ruling about re-hearing and/or en banc hearing as she requested?  :shaka:

It's going to be step one re: Kamala.  Once she is approved (if approved) then she would get an opportunity to request en banc.  By most accounts, the judges timeline to request en banc has passed (we think?).  So now it would just be her getting a chance.

Best case she is denied and then the flood gates should open.  :shake:
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xer 21

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2014, 04:15:54 PM »
so, any updates on baker?  we seemed really close to a breakthrough for a while...

zippz

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2014, 04:58:47 PM »
I wonder how this will play out if the court approves CCW.  WIll it be like D.C. where anyone can carry without a permit until the city comes up with new laws and requirements?  Or would the city be able to immediately start processing CCW permit applications, but does the HPD already have a written set of requirements such as taking a CCW class and test?

Funtimes

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2014, 08:09:05 PM »
so, any updates on baker?  we seemed really close to a breakthrough for a while...

Still waiting on California. #tumbleweed.
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Funtimes

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2014, 09:49:38 PM »
Just saw this:


It’s a long way from May to December, and February through October is even longer. The landmark Second Amendment case, Peruta v. County of San Diego, No. 10-56971 (02/13/14), has been left hanging for eight months on a procedural issue, the intervention motion made by the California Attorney General.

In Peruta, the Ninth Circuit held San Diego County’s concealed carry permit system violated the Second Amendment because it required “good cause” for the issuance of the permit and not a general desire for self-defense. (Seehttp://www.law.com/sites/jamesching/2014/04/12/tactical-considerations-in-the-pending-motion-en-banc-to-review-ninth-circuits-peruta-decision-on-the-second-amendments-effect-on-concealed-carry-permit-issuance-in/#ixzz31nmZMr3b)


Read more: http://www.law.com/sites/jamesching/2014/10/12/state-ags-intervention-motion-stalls-peruta-case-for-eight-months/#ixzz3G0dEY1W5
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punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2014, 11:20:22 AM »
Nothing on Baker. And almost nothing on Peruta, other than that it has been relied upon heavily by Judge Scullin in the D.C. Court of Appeals to overturn the D.C. carry ban (Palmer, et. al. v. Washington D.C.). One speculation is that the Ninth Peruta panel is not acting on the Harris intervenor status in order to allow more courts to possibly cite Peruta in other circuits, and thus give it more "weight". Like i said, speculation. But for those who might want to read something peripherally relating to Baker/Peruta and CCW rights...

Washington D.C. enacted a "temporary" CCW licensing law in order to conform with judge Scullin's ruling. You'll never guess, but that new law requires "good reason", which also requires documented proof of that good reason. In other words, no CCW for anyone who wants to carry for self-defense without meeting the other unknown standards. Sound familiar? Of course Palmer, et. al. had sued in order to carry in public for "self defense", which attorney Alan Gura argued, novelly enough, that the right to bear arms (outside the home) is a Constitutionally-guaranteed right. Without the necessity of meeting any "good reason" standard (or any other) erected by our government bureaucrats.

I thought some might like to see some of the quotes from his "Memorandum re Permanent Injunction Request " from October 30, 2014 for it's similarities to Hawaii law (prohibitions against CCW). The whole thing can be downloaded/read here:

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=365704&d=1414888523

I've selected some quotes and placed in bold the most relevant phrases... I hope Gura succeeds and that perhaps this case as it is appealed helps push Peruta (and thus Baker), but I expect the same thing from Hawaii as we see from the D.C. legislators.Note that Gura argues at one point that even those who do not apply and have been rejected have standing to sue if it is known that the process of applying is futile (sound familiar?). So if that is the case all of us who merely want a CCW, even without having applied and been denied, would have standing to sue the state/county/police chief. Woohoo!

Parties often elevate form when they have no substance to discuss, and indeed, very little of
Defendants’ opposition asserts that their new/old licensing regime meets constitutional standards.
Plainly, it does not. Instead, the Court is again treated to a blend of inapposite cases, flat-out error,
and doublespeak. At the root of the problem, Defendants confuse the related concepts of ripeness,
mootness, and standing, and get all three wrong. But perhaps worst of all, Defendants deny the
power of federal courts to enforce compliance with their judgments.  p1

Defendants believe that they may instead endlessly erect barriers, pretending that each barrier is a “new law” requiring not only litigation to start from scratch, but administrative exhaustion as well. None of this is correct.  p2


When it suited Defendants, the 1932 law was a “longstanding,” “practical ban.” Now it suits
Defendants to present the 1932 regime, copied verbatim in the 2014 law following a five year
absence, as somewhat flexible. In a sense, Defendants are saying, “this time, trust us,” claiming that
“subsequent interpretation will be informed (and cabined) by relevant Second-Amendment case
law—none of which existed in 1931.” Opp., Dkt. 73, at 11 n.9. “[T]he District will now issue such
licenses, where it did not before.” Id. at 11. But Defendants do not suggest that they will issue
licenses to the Plaintiffs, who obviously cannot meet the Defendants’ new/old standards, so how is it
that Plaintiffs’ injury is resolved? Plaintiffs did not sue for an administrative adjudication, for the
right to discover the police chief’s opinion of whether they deserve to carry defensive handguns.
That much was never a secret. Plaintiffs sued for a constitutional right.
  p5

Of course, any suggestion that the individual plaintiffs, and SAF’s membership at-large,
might obtain handgun carry permits based on the constitutional interest in self-defense would be
cynical. Mere days after filing their brief, Defendants released their handgun carry license
application form, which require the submission of a “good” or “proper” reason under D.C. law,
along with substantiating evidence.
See Exh. A, at 3-4; Exh. B, at 4. Plaintiffs lack those attributes,
see infra, so they cannot apply. Of course, this case has never been about the special privileges of
favored individuals presenting rare circumstances. It is about whether ordinary, law-abiding,
responsible citizens may carry handguns for self-defense.
The “new” law does not allow for that.  p6

They have merely formalized the process of denial and prohibition by requiring
that which Plaintiffs do not have.
If a license were truly now available to Tom Palmer, it would not
have been too much to ask Defendants to explain exactly how he might obtain one considering his
lack of “good” or “proper” “reason.”
p12

Whatever Defendants might pretend about how they would go about policing “good”
and “proper” reasons, they cannot seriously suggest that they are prepared to issue handgun carry
licenses to people who fail to submit any reason at all for carrying handguns.
p14

“One need not apply for a benefit conditioned by a facially unconstitutional law.” United
States v. Baugh, 187 F.3d 1037, 1041 (9th Cir. 1999) (citations omitted). “The Constitution can
hardly be thought to deny to one subjected to the restraints of [a licensing law] the right to attack its
constitutionality, because he has not yielded to its demands.” Lakewood , 486 U.S. at 756 (quoting
Jones v. Opelika, 316 U.S. 584, 602 (1942) (Stone, C. J., dissenting), adopted per curiam on
rehearing, 319 U.S. 103, 104 (1943)). “As the ordinance [providing for unbridled licensing
discretion] is void on its face, it was not necessary for appellant to seek a permit under it.”
  p18

The issue is not whether Defendants are properly interpreting their “good reason”/“proper reason” requirement; the issue is whether that requirement, which on its face precludes Plaintiffs from carrying handguns, is unconstitutional—a decision that Defendant [Washington D.C. police chief] Lanier, unlike a federal court, is not qualified and not authorized to make.  p19

A corollary to the rule that one need not submit to a law in order to attack the law as
constitutionally defective is the rule excusing litigants from performing ritualistic and pointless
deeds in order to confirm that they are, in fact, injured by the law. If circumstances make clear that
an administrative application is hopeless, a plaintiff need not go through the futile act of submitting paperwork.
  p19

One can readily see why a replacement statute must not “differ[] only in some insignificant
respect” from the enjoined statute. Today, one needs “good reason” to exercise the right. When that
falls by the wayside, perhaps after another decade of litigation, the application fee would be raised to a million dollars. A decade later, only ambidextrous people can safely carry guns. A decade after that, Olympic medal marksmanship might be demanded. The list of “new laws” is bounded only by Defendants’ imagination. Each time, supposedly, exhaustion and litigation would be required anew, but generations of plaintiffs would [n]ever enjoy a meaningful right.
p20

[You can't say Gura doesn't have a sense of humor while reaming them...]
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 05:17:18 PM by punaperson »

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2014, 06:03:46 AM »
Peruta stands. No one has standing to appeal. Sua sponte en banc still a possibility. Now on to Baker and the Yolo County cases...

Decision on CalGuns site:

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=368335&d=1415806941

Also here: Peruta Intervention Denied Order

Let's hope the court also denies the Hawaii request for en banc... I wanna see and hear what lame unconstitutional excuses the police chiefs, attorney general, county counsels, and our new governor-elect start whining...

SUMMARY*

* This summary constitutes no part of the opinion of the court. It has
been prepared by court staff for the convenience of the reader.

Civil Rights

The panel denied motions to intervene, which were filed
after the panel’s opinion and judgment holding that a
responsible, law-abiding citizen has a right under the Second
Amendment to carry a firearm in public for self-defense.
The State of California and the Brady Campaign to
Prevent Gun Violence moved to intervene under Federal Rule
of Civil Procedure 24 after San Diego Sheriff William D.
Gore declined to file a petition for rehearing en banc. The
California Police Chiefs’ Association and the California
Peace Officers’ Association, amici in this case, submitted a
petition for rehearing en banc. Noting that amici cannot file
petitions for rehearing en banc, the panel construed the
petition as a motion to intervene.

The panel held that the movants did not meet the heavy
burden of demonstrating imperative reasons in favor of
intervention on appeal. Noting that the movants sought
intervention more than four years after the case began, the
panel stated that the stage of the proceedings, the length of
the delay, and the reason for the delay all weighed against
timeliness.
In the absence of a timely motion, intervention
was unavailable.

The panel further concluded that 28 U.S.C. § 2403 and
Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 5.1 did not provide a basis
for intervention because the panel’s opinion never drew into
question the constitutionality of any California statute, but
only questioned San Diego County’s exercise of regulatory
authority under the relevant state statutes, specifically the
County’s policy that an assertion of self-defense is
insufficient to demonstrate “good cause” under the California
statutory scheme.

Dissenting, Judge Thomas stated that the majority’s
decision to prevent the State of California from intervening
in this case conflicted with controlling circuit precedent and
deprived one of the parties most affected by the panel’s
decision the opportunity to even present an argument on an
important constitutional question affecting millions of
citizens.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 07:00:27 AM by punaperson »

Funtimes

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2014, 12:09:01 PM »
Now we wait to see if Hawaii tries to go en banc / cert petition in my case.
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rellik

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2014, 02:16:06 PM »
Has Baker been ruled on?  Puerta,  stands. Has the stay been put aside?  I have been advised by my lawyers to not file against the county of Hawaii until Baker is resolved.  Why wait for Hawaii challenges? Shouldn't all Hawaiians that desire one, now apply for a CCW?  Inquiring minds want to know.

2aHawaii

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Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2014, 02:20:02 PM »
Has Baker been ruled on?  Puerta,  stands. Has the stay been put aside?  I have been advised by my lawyers to not file against the county of Hawaii until Baker is resolved.  Why wait for Hawaii challenges? Shouldn't all Hawaiians that desire one, now apply for a CCW?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Baker has been ruled on and matches the ruling in Peruta. Honolulu has applied to rehear the case en banc, so we'll see more in the next few weeks.
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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rellik

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2014, 03:57:06 PM »
Thanks for the response.
I will wait till 2015 to start jerking Kubojiri's chain.
With all due respect,  he belongs in chains, by reason
of "exceptional" need.

garfy2008

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2014, 03:04:14 AM »
>> punaperson

>>>Let's hope the court also denies the Hawaii request for en banc... I wanna see and hear what lame unconstitutional excuses the police chiefs, attorney general, county counsels, and our new governor-elect start whining...<<<

As far as our NEW Governor is concerned, unless he LIED on Hawaii Rifle Association's survey of candidates, he was rated an "A" by HRA (compared to Abercrombie's "F" rating).  So, based on that, Governor-elect IGE would have to allow Hawaii to become "shall issue".  We'll see how much "pull" he has with his almost completely Democrat Legislature.  Of course, if he opposes it, then next election we need to make sure that ALL GUNOWNERS puts him out of office.

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2014, 06:10:05 AM »
>> punaperson

>>>Let's hope the court also denies the Hawaii request for en banc... I wanna see and hear what lame unconstitutional excuses the police chiefs, attorney general, county counsels, and our new governor-elect start whining...<<<

As far as our NEW Governor is concerned, unless he LIED on Hawaii Rifle Association's survey of candidates, he was rated an "A" by HRA (compared to Abercrombie's "F" rating).  So, based on that, Governor-elect IGE would have to allow Hawaii to become "shall issue".  We'll see how much "pull" he has with his almost completely Democrat Legislature.  Of course, if he opposes it, then next election we need to make sure that ALL GUNOWNERS puts him out of office.
Seriously? You think that "A" grade from HRA means Ige supports CCW for law-abiding Hawaii citizens? I've tried (via emails and phone calls) for over two months to get him or his campaign to answer clear and direct questions about his position on CCW in general and in particular in light of Peruta. Not a peep from anyone having anything to do with Ige. (As a side note, I have posted the email I want to send to Ige with the revised questions re CCW on another thread, and yesterday their phones were working, but apparently there is still no email address for our governor-elect. Go figure.) It appears to me that the HRA (who almost always gives candidates higher ratings than the NRA-ILA does) appears to grade on a "curve". They give an "F" to people who advocate "almost no weapons for anyone anywhere anytime", and give and "A" to people who advocate some restricted/limited weapons for some people some of the time in some locations. That's not my idea of an "A". If Ige supported CCW he could long ago have stated his support by noting that the "no issue" policy of Hawaii is unconstitutional regarding both the U.S. Constitution and the Hawaii state constitution. There have been CCW bills in that last several (or more) legislative sessions and I don't recall Ige supporting them. When Peruta was decided in February 2014 he could have stated that he saw the validity of the legal arguments and would work to assure all Hawaii citizens their right to self-defense outside the home via CCW. I must have missed that press release. Perhaps he'll decide in light of yesterday's ruling that it would be better to spend taxpayer dollars to enhance the economy in ways that will make Hawaii more business and job friendly rather than spending that money to continue to violate the rights of Hawaii citizens. Wanna bet?

I'm curious to see how long it takes the panel to rule on the Richards case request for en banc/review and what happens with Baker being remanded to the lower court.

Aegis808

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2014, 12:54:27 PM »
>> punaperson

>>>Let's hope the court also denies the Hawaii request for en banc... I wanna see and hear what lame unconstitutional excuses the police chiefs, attorney general, county counsels, and our new governor-elect start whining...<<<

As far as our NEW Governor is concerned, unless he LIED on Hawaii Rifle Association's survey of candidates, he was rated an "A" by HRA (compared to Abercrombie's "F" rating).  So, based on that, Governor-elect IGE would have to allow Hawaii to become "shall issue".  We'll see how much "pull" he has with his almost completely Democrat Legislature.  Of course, if he opposes it, then next election we need to make sure that ALL GUNOWNERS puts him out of office.

I look forward to the day david ige tells the chief of police to start handing out CCW permits.

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2014, 01:28:11 PM »
I look forward to the day david ige tells the chief of police to start handing out CCW permits.
Crystal ball:

I couldn't find a photo of the federal marshals outside the governor's office waiting to see if he followed the court-mandated order.

Flinter

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2014, 09:37:38 AM »
The Baker case was remanded back to the Hawaii Federal District Court many months ago. Hasn't the time period  to request the panel decision be heard en blanc before the entire 9th ended? If so it's a done deal and we only need Judge Kay to hear the case on remand.

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2014, 12:51:46 PM »
The Baker case was remanded back to the Hawaii Federal District Court many months ago. Hasn't the time period  to request the panel decision be heard en blanc before the entire 9th ended? If so it's a done deal and we only need Judge Kay to hear the case on remand.
I believe that because both Baker and Richards essentially said "See Peruta", that the time limit to ask for en banc does not start until Peruta is finalized (and it hasn't been yet). Once that happens (after possible Harris appeal to 9CA/SCOTUS, possible en banc in 9CA either sua sponte or if Harris's appeal is upheld to become intervenor and her request for en banc is accepted... so it might be a while  ;)), the parties can ask for en banc, and my understanding is that the defendants in both cases have already filed for en banc and/or announced that they plan to file for en banc at the appropriate time. Sheriff Prieto, defendant in the Yolo county Richards case, has stated that he will take all possible legal steps to maintain his discretionary issuance of CCW licenses, including asking for cert from SCOTUS if necessary.

Another possibility, of course, is that some or all of the police chiefs here in Hawaii, like some of the county sheriffs in California, can decide of the own volition to issue CCW licenses in accord with the Peruta ruling even though it has not been finalized. (See flying pig image above.)

If anyone has contrary info, please post it and correct what I have surmised during my reading of the past several days.  :shaka:

Addition at 1:20PM. Thanks to arslin at a calguns thread http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=811282&page=25, post #978, here is the statement from the San Diego Sheriffs Department regarding their current policy re issuing CCWs in light of the Wednesday denials of intervenor status. Remember, Peruta technically only applies to San Diego county policy by sheriff Gore, so they are the most immediately and directly affected by Peruta.

"The issue of whether the State, the Brady Center, and/or CPCA and CPOA can intervene in the case has been settled – they cannot. However, the issue of whether or not the full Ninth Circuit will review the case en banc remains unanswered. The full court can accept a case for en banc review even if none of the parties make such a request – only time will answer that question.

Therefore nothing has changed for us, we will continue to process applications as we have been doing. Others that wish to place an application in abeyance may do so in person, not by mail. Should the decision be upheld, we will contact the applicants in the order applications were received."
__________________
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 01:26:37 PM by punaperson »

punaperson

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2014, 03:38:08 PM »
I just read another statement by another California county sheriff re how the intervenor denial by CA9 in Peruta will affect their CCW issuing policy. Notice how they make it seem as if they are already abiding by Peruta, and thus don't expect many people to apply, yet they emphasize with capital letters that they are still going to use the "good moral character" criterion at their own discretion. Please also note that they have issued 1200 permits in a county of 2,293,000 people. That is .05 PERCENT of the population in Riverside county that have qualified and been issued permits. Compare that to entire states: South Dakota 12.03% (240 TIMES higher rate), Indiana10.79% (216 TIMES higher rate), Alabama10.21% (204 TIMES higher rate). Even the 40th ranked state, New Hampshire has .96% of its citizens issued CCW licenses, which is more than 19 TIMES the rate of issuance of Riverside county. I'd like to see an explanation as to why the population of Riverside county is so averse to CCW if the process is really in accord with Peruta... they must have no crime there! Kinda like here, right? :geekdanc:

http://www.myvalleynews.com/story/81897/

Sheriff Sniff’s observations on the recent 9th Circuit Peruta Decision

Friday, November 14th, 2014
Issue 46, Volume 18.

The Sheriff’s Department is aware of the latest decision in the Peruta case announced yesterday, November 12th. It will be a short time before the legal guidance for the some 400 California police departments and sheriff’s offices that are impacted change their Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) processes in California. CCW permits can be issued to residents by both city police chiefs and our county sheriffs throughout California.

Those issued CCW permits are good throughout California, licensing the permit holders to carry loaded handguns, hidden on their persons or in their vehicle, throughout our California communities.

Just as every other law enforcement agency, the Riverside County Sheriff’s Department will always comply with statutory law and finalized court directions in this and other legal matters. Residents are reminded that California CCW issuance is discretionary by the police chief or sheriff, and is based upon both reason of (1) self-defense or self-protection, AND[their caps, my bold] (2) good moral character.

The Riverside County Sheriff’s Department does not anticipate a big increase in CCW applications with our agency, as our posture prior to yesterday’s Circuit Court decision has been both fair and reasonable for years, with a very large variety of so-called "good causes" being entirely acceptable – and each one simply articulated and expanded these very same "self-defense" and "self-protection" criteria outlined in Peruta. Many California law enforcement agencies have historically not issued CCWs to their residents and that is where we anticipate much greater impact as a result of yesterday’s decision by the 9th Circuit.

Riverside County residents are reminded that a CCW permit is not required to purchase a handgun and possess it for self-defense or personal protection within their home or within their place of business. CCW permits are required to carry a loaded, concealed firearm into our public places like driving on our roadways, and going to theaters, markets, and alike.

Unloaded or loaded firearms, openly displayed in clear view in a public place, generally remains a crime in California after "open carry" was banned by our state legislator [sic] just a few years back.

We may very well see the California Legislature react to this ruling by enacting new firearms laws this next year, and these issues in the various Circuit Courts may well still go forward to the SCOTUS.

The Riverside County Sheriff’s Department currently has approximately 1,200 CCWs issued across Riverside County. Nearly all of these have been issued after Sheriff Sniff took office in 2007.

salty0317

Re: Baker win at the 9th CCA - What now?
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2014, 08:16:52 PM »
It would seem to me that the State now faces a few legal and financial issues in this matter.
1) A takings requires compensation. The State could be flooded with personal body guard invoices by any number of private citizens who wish self protection.
2) Successfully prosecuting an individual for carrying a firearm without a permit is now a toilet grade prosecution via appeals.
3) Victims and their Families may now seek financial compensation from the State or Chief of Police for any bodily injury or wrongful death that may occur by would be criminal acts of assault, rape, murder etc. because the State has prohibited meaningful self protection.
Feel free to add to this list of newly adopted State responsibilities.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:24:08 PM by salty0317 »