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Poll

If Hawaii was to become a Shall Issue State tomorrow would you apply for a CCW permit?

Yes
96.6%
No
0%
Don't Care
3.4%
Total Members Voted
118
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Concealed Carry in Hawaii (Read 88347 times)

punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2014, 10:09:37 PM »
Quote from: bubba808 on April 27, 2014, 06:51:48 PM
as you quoted me. " similar to one of funtimes classes". do you have a clue what "similar" means? 

Oh, I see. You mean "similar" except that it would have nothing at all in common with the actual content of that class. You mean you meant "similar" in that it would be a "class"? If so, no need to mention funtimes, just say "class". Talk about someone not having a clue about word meanings. Though you have some ability with the weasel words, probably because you have no actual logical or rational answers to support your false claims and false logic. You still haven't pointed to one single instance where you referred to any other CCW besides firearms, except when you criticized someone for not including non-firearm weapons.

I have been avoiding responding to you specifically cuz I think you're incapable of intelligent communication. 

Coming from you?  :rofl: Here, I'll take one of your favorites from your playbook, and use the condescending "use the dictionary you ignoramus" card: "intelligent": guided by reason; rational

You continue to disrespect the bible and other people's religions. 

I would never have ever mentioned the "bible" were it not for you in your arrogance attempting to assert yourself and your justifications for your views by quoting it, extensively. Your "bible" is just a collection of myths and fairy tales (aka "miracles" which violate all the known laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc.) and I owe respect only to those things and people who earn it by displaying some kind of integrity and willingness to openly examine the evidence for a claim using critical thinking skills and evaluating the quality of all the evidence. And you claim you respect "other people's religions", correct? You think they're all wrong and delusions, and possibly the creations of Satan, and that the people who believe in those other "holy books" and "saviors" and "god(s)" and "miracles" are seriously in error and going to spend eternity in hell while you bask in heavenly glory... but you "respect" them. Sure you do.  :rofl:

your opinion is worthless to me. 

That's not surprising in the least. I find your attempted arguments, justifications, refusal to engage by direct and total avoidance of answering questions, strawman arguments, red herrings, deliberate distortions, misleading statements, etc. to be quite interesting. It's all educational for me. How does this kind of person who claims to be motivated by such a belief system respond when questioned about all of the preceding? Very educational indeed. But not surprising.

Lets agree to disagree.  Don't waste your time, I won't waste mine.

Thanks, I'll decide what wasting my time is and if I do or don't want to do whatever. I really couldn't care less what you believe, but when you attempt to justify some position on a public forum using false and misleading information with muddled incoherent arguments which include appeals to your personal superstitious beliefs, I'd like to see how you respond to requests for clarification. But I know you believe that'd be a waste of time, because, well, you know, you and "god" and the "bible" and all that.
:popcorn:
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 10:28:54 PM by punaperson »
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Kingkeoni

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2014, 11:16:53 PM »
Quote from: robtmc on April 27, 2014, 06:22:11 PM
Damn, this has turned into one of the weirder threads I have read on 2AHawaii since the fluffy rabbit stuff.

Speaking of fluffy white rabbits, I haven't seen Cougar around in a while...
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2aHawaii

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Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2014, 07:26:06 AM »
Bubba808, let me make this easy for you

1. There will probably be some sort of training requirement in order to be able to get a carry permit. That should make you happy.

2. Christians don't all agree with a total pacifism philosophy as you would and the links that you posted showed that. Even if they all did, you can't apply your beliefs in order to trump the constitution.
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Funtimes

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2014, 08:12:53 AM »
If I were teaching classes on CCW it wouldn't change too much from the basic courses.  Instead of shooting from the bench, I would just make people put on holsters and draw shoot from that after teaching them more about drawing. It would likely add just another hour or so to the class.  I'd also have a scoring requirement for passing instead of just a general competency.
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2014, 08:23:03 AM »
Quote from: Funtimes on April 28, 2014, 08:12:53 AM
If I were teaching classes on CCW it wouldn't change too much from the basic courses.  Instead of shooting from the bench, I would just make people put on holsters and draw shoot from that after teaching them more about drawing. It would likely add just another hour or so to the class.  I'd also have a scoring requirement for passing instead of just a general competency.
Chris, I'm wondering if you know anything about CCW classes, obviously in jurisdictions other than Hawaii where citizens have no right to self-defense using any weapons outside the home, that include or specialize in weapons other than firearms (e.g. expandable batons, "stun guns", pepper spray, etc.). Thanks. Hopefully some day residents of Hawaii will be "allowed" by our tyrant masters to exercise our right of self-defense with the weapons of our choice, rather than their choices for us. Each of those other weapons would seem to have different tactical strategies that specific training could address.
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zippz

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2014, 08:42:37 AM »
I would try to reduce the requirements to be able to get a CCW as much as possible, due to none of the other bill of rights not requiring taking a class.  Ie you don't have to get certified or tested for the first amendment rights.  However we have to ensure CCWs have some standards to meet for the minimal level of safety.  What I propose is:

1.  Grant reciprocity with other states with a minimum standard (requiring testing or course)
2.  Have a simple exam for those that already received firearms training (NRA, military, etc) that covers laws and basic safe gun handling.  Have a live fire test from the holster, 10 rounds on a target with a minimum passing score, maybe 7 out of 10 on a silhouette at 10 yards safely.  Fees paid from CCW registration fees.
3.  People can take a CCW course which includes #2.  Course instructor can give the test.

Also I wouldn't exclude people, such as the elderly, as long as they can meet the requirements.  Keep it simple, same people that can possess a firearm can CCW.  If people are against CCW, that's fine with me, they don't have to apply for it themselves.  However don't prevent other people from exercising their rights to CCW and self defense.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 08:51:18 AM by zippz »
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2014, 08:58:56 AM »
Quote from: 2aHawaii on April 28, 2014, 07:26:06 AM
Bubba808, let me make this easy for you

1. There will probably be some sort of training requirement in order to be able to get a carry permit. That should make you happy.

2. Christians don't all agree with a total pacifism philosophy as you would and the links that you posted showed that. Even if they all did, you can't apply your beliefs in order to trump the constitution.
"...you can't apply your beliefs in order to trump the constitution."

But that is exactly what the ilk of Bubba808 are arguing, that their insight and values are from beyond and above the realm of mere mortal human thinking and reasoning about ethics and values, and therefore their views "inspired by god(s)" are superior to any documents or ideas or values created by "fallen sinners" (aka "humans") and therefore "ought" to trump lowly craven values as reflected in the Constitution (written, by the way, by mostly either non-believers or at best [edit: not Theists, but Deists] who believed that if there was a supernatural "creator", once the universe was created that "creator" was no longer involved in any active manner). Many people who hold such beliefs as Bubba808 believe it is their "sacred" duty and obligation to impose their beliefs, values, and morals, in one way or another, on the heathen nonbelievers and "christians" who have gone astray and interpreted the "bible" in an erroneous manner (In Bubba808s case, a christian concluding that they have a right to use lethal force for self-defense has strayed from "the word", "properly" interpreted and understood by Bubba808). Just ask him/them. They want to incorporate their particular interpretation of a book of fairy tales into actual government law and policies. If they just kept to themselves in their cults I wouldn't have a word to say about it (well except for the child abuse and such involving crimes against innocents), but once they start telling me I may not exercise a right because of what they believe, and lobby government to incorporate that denial of my rights into law, well... I object.

Here's a lengthy "New Age" religious/spiritual argument for self-defense and the right to use firearms in the exercise of the right to self-defense:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/tao.asp

Tao of Gun: Spiritual Sovereignty and the Hypocrisy of Gun Control

I'm sure tolerant advocates of religious "respect" like Bubba808 will read the entire thing in the interest of understanding others beliefs (as I'm sure he has read the main "spiritual" documents of all the other religions) and then in a respectful manner place it on a par with his preferred religious "scriptures" even though it comes to a diametrically opposed conclusion regarding a religious/spiritual-values-based argument re self-defense compared to his interpretation of his favorite document.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:43:35 AM by punaperson »
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zippz

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2014, 09:34:07 AM »
Can you guys take it to the PM's, getting sidetracked here.
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Jl808

Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2014, 09:43:20 AM »
Hi punaperson, before you judge all Christians with the likes of bubba808's inconsistent arguments, please consider the fact that the original "theists" devised the constitution with the belief that our individual rights written in the bill of rights are derived from the fact that we were all fearfully and wonderfully made by a divine Creator. Without the belief in a divine God, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are nothing more than a piece of paper written by people who lived long ago.

The reason why the life of a human being is of value is because humans are God's creation and are precious to Him. Even without a constitution and a bill of rights, our right to life and the right to defend that life should not be diminished.

Without the system of belief in God, humans are placed in equal status as animals as is the conclusion of most atheistic belief systems.  Might makes right.  Survival of the fittest. 

Note that recent history shows that the largest scale of human democides are done by governments that take the divine God out of the picture.  Current humanist/environmentalist trains of thoughts sometimes even label humans as "parasites" against the earth that should be eradicated by 90%. Sounds like another democide in the making.

The rights from the constitution that you hold in value cannot be detached from the belief system that you seem to hold in contempt. Try read the writings of A.W. Tozer, Ravi Zaccharias, Allistair Begg or other notable preachers instead of bubba808 before judging the Christian belief system.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:48:40 AM by Jl808 »
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Jl808

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2014, 09:44:24 AM »

Quote from: zippz on April 28, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
Can you guys take it to the PM's, getting sidetracked here.

Agreed.  No sense offending folks and taking a good discussion off topic.

:stopjack:
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jonjon

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2014, 10:09:42 AM »
Started this thread to find out the percentage of 2a Hawaii members who would apply for a CCW permit if Hawaii became a "Shall" issue state but it has evolved into a debate about religion  ???

Please stay on topic or start your own thread if you want to argue about religion and I will happily ignore it  :shaka:
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2014, 10:10:45 AM »
Quote from: Jl808 on April 28, 2014, 09:43:20 AM
Hi punaperson, before you judge all Christians with the likes of bubba808's inconsistent arguments, please consider the fact that the original "theists" devised the constitution with the belief that our individual rights written in the bill of rights are derived from the fact that we were all fearfully and wonderfully made by a divine Creator. Without the belief in a divine God, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are nothing more than a piece of paper written by people who lived long ago.

The reason why the life of a human being is of value is because humans are God's creation and are precious to Him. Even without a constitution and a bill of rights, our right to life and the right to defend that life should not be diminished.

Without the system of belief in God, humans are placed in equal status as animals as is the conclusion of most atheistic belief systems.  Might makes right.  Survival of the fittest. 

Note that recent history shows that the largest scale of human democides are done by governments that take the divine God out of the picture.  Current humanist/environmentalist trains of thoughts sometimes even label humans as "parasites" against the earth that should be eradicated by 90%. Sounds like another democide in the making.

The rights from the constitution that you hold in value cannot be detached from the belief system that you seem to hold in contempt. Try read the writings of A.W. Tozer, Ravi Zaccharias, Allistair Begg or other notable preachers instead of bubba808 before judging the Christian belief system.
You are wrong in virtually all your assumptions, premises, and conclusions, which are but a gross cartoonish oversimplification of the issues, BUT in deference to forum readers who have no interest in the imposition-of-religious-values arguments, even as applied to such attempts to deny the natural rights of citizens in the context of CCW, I won't bother to provide evidence and arguments to counter your assertions.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:23:57 AM by punaperson »
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2014, 10:22:49 AM »
Quote from: jonjon on April 28, 2014, 10:09:42 AM
Started this thread to find out the percentage of 2a Hawaii members who would apply for a CCW permit if Hawaii became a "Shall" issue state but it has evolved into a debate about religion  ???

Please stay on topic or start your own thread if you want to argue about religion and I will happily ignore it  :shaka:
In my view it's actually about the arguments people use to attempt to infringe upon our abiltiy to exercise our right to self-defense, which would include CCW. It doesn't matter to me if it's a secular argument or a religion-based argument, I'm going to defend the right of law-abiding citizens to exercise the right of self-defense without infringement, be it by secular authorities or religious zealots trying to impose their supposed "revealed" authority upon the secular enforcers of such limitations upon our rights.

Perhaps you ought to have made it a poll only, with the ability to comment disabled? Or if you want to enable comments but censor or delete topics or subject matter that you don't want included, announce that at the beginning and/or immediately remove the ones that violate that policy. If you allow comments of a certain content, you would, to be consistent, have to allow reply comments refuting or repudiating or agreeing with those original comments. But it's your thread, I guess, so do whatever you want. Obviously.  :shaka:
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Jl808

Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2014, 10:33:54 AM »
Apologies to the OP, to punaperson and to other forum members for joining in the religious fray.

:shaka:  back on topic. :stopjack:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 11:01:13 AM by Jl808 »
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I think, therefore I am armed.
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Dels

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2014, 10:38:13 AM »
Yes,  I would apply for a permit. Yes,  I, am in favor of having to take a class in order to get a permit.
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Funtimes

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2014, 11:24:21 AM »
Quote from: zippz on April 28, 2014, 08:42:37 AM
  Ie you don't have to get certified or tested for the first amendment rights. 

I actually disagree with these statements.  It takes a significant amount of training and education in order to exercise your first amendment rights.

I personally think Arizona has one of the better systems (to me) where it's constitutional in almost all places, except places that may be more dense - where you need some sort of proof etc.   When the carry law is struck down, I really think we will see a large dramatic change to the HRS 134-9.  They will have to rework the whole set of statutes when we become shall issue.  Many places have quite a few laws outlining where we can carry, what we can do with it.  When we start carrying - they (the gov) will freak out because those restrictions are not currently in place.  For example, there is absolutely nothing that prohibits me from carrying a firearm into a courthouse if I have a permit to do so. Other than a few signs outside, which I'm not sure are actually codified into law - but are rather just signs.  Bars and alcohol?  We have all kinds of things that I know for certain they will look at.
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zippz

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2014, 12:40:19 PM »
Quote from: Funtimes on April 28, 2014, 11:24:21 AM
I actually disagree with these statements.  It takes a significant amount of training and education in order to exercise your first amendment rights.

I have to disagree with your disagreement.  As an individual, you can exercise your first amendment rights without training or certification.  I could stand at Thomas Square (or other public areas) protesting Occupy and would not need to show any training documents or certifications.  I may not be effective without training and have to obey the laws, but I can do it safely and legally.  Same with publishing or posting on the internet, no training or certifications are legally required.

For CCW, some states do not require any training or license, but most do.  However since there is some risk involved to the general public, ie negligent discharge/missing a target, then there should be at least a minimum standard that should be required and this would be tested while still allowing free exercise of 2nd amendment rights.
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Scar16

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Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2014, 01:20:41 PM »
Yes, and i hope hi would recognize if we already have a ccw from another state so we dont need to go through it all over again...
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2014, 02:16:34 PM »
Quote from: Funtimes on April 28, 2014, 11:24:21 AM

When the carry law is struck down, I really think we will see a large dramatic change to the HRS 134-9.  They will have to rework the whole set of statutes when we become shall issue.

I'm guessing they've got someone already writing the new law... I can hardly wait to read it....

...  Many places have quite a few laws outlining where we can carry, what we can do with it.  ...
I believe the fairly newly enacted (under court order) Illinois CCW law has 23 prohibited types of locations (bars, school parking lots, etc.). Good luck remembering all those and being able to clearly determine for certain if the area you want to enter is or is not prohibited.(I read one person claiming that outside a school you can park on the far side of the street and be legal, but not if you park on the school side of the street...). I believe one intent of such restrictions is too make so unclear as to exactly what conditions put you in legal jeopardy that you will just forget the whole thing... not just carrying, but even applying to carry. I'm pretty sure the tyrant bureaucrats in Hawaii will go to the mat and make every possible obstructionist move they can in terms of costs, prohibited locations, training requirements, wait times to get a license, etc. etc. etc. As I've written before, I hope I'm wrong and that some kind of rational view will prevail and they'll just say,"Okay, that is now the law so let's follow the letter and the spirit of the law and allow law-abiding citizens to carry whatever "arms" they prefer." I'd wager a fair sum it ain't gonna go that way...
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punaperson

Re: Concealed Carry in Hawaii
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2014, 02:22:15 PM »
Quote from: Scar16 on April 28, 2014, 01:20:41 PM
Yes, and i hope hi would recognize if we already have a ccw from another state so we dont need to go through it all over again...
Oh, I'm pretty sure you're going to need to go through it all over again... with the possible exception of some active/retired law enforcement and/or military... and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't cut them too much slack. But again, I hope I'm wrong.
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