the letter that kaiser sent can be accessed by anyone that works at kaiser

it is my belief that the firearms form is sent to kaiser
and then the letter was mistakenly sent out denying you from the permit, with a doctors sig that you never saw
now kaiser doesn't want to own up to their mistake bc nobody really knows exactly what happened
it is a huge company, and miscommunications happen all the time.  I see this daily.
it just sucks that these people have to suffer for kaiser's bone head mistake.

If you don't have a history of a disqualifying condition, this may well be the reason said disqualifying condition letter was sent; it was a mistake and now, once this had been set in motion, it is near impossible to correct. Hawaii law provides qualified immunity to providers that may render an opinion without "malice" but seems to offer no such protection to the organization employing those physicians. You might consider approaching the Risk Management Department and enlisting their help. In the course of discussing your case with them, you might mention that the organization has no qualified immunity under current Hawaii law and that one might argue that said organization, being unwilling to address an obvious mistake that prevented the exercise of a core, fundamental Constitutional right might be viewed as acting under "color of authority" which in turn could expose the organization to civil liabilities. It might be a stretch, but it might help....

Good to know.  However, you can have a healthcare provider and not have a doctor.  I had an HMSA PPO plan for years where I didn't have a primary doctor.  I'm assuming in those cases leaving it blank would be within the law?  I guess it's different for Kaiser, they automatically assign you someone right?

Not exactly. You could have a healthcare PLAN/insurance and not have a healthcare provider (Doctor, NP, etc.)....If you have a PPO and have not been assigned a provider, leaving the space blank would seem to be appropriate.

This is currently affecting my friend as well. What he is concerned about is that HPD is no longer waiting for the KP rejection letter. Once they see you are with KP they call you back and request your doctor fills out the extra form.

Now we have privately owned entities denying 2a rights for no basis?

Slippery slope for KP and us. I would sue Kealoha and KP for this.

I have kaiser registered a handgun a few weeks ago, no problem.
Same as always.

I too have been thrown into this process with Kaiser versus HPD on an application to acquire a handgun.

As the original post and others have posted, I have had no problem with renewing and acquiring through out this year.

I renewed my long gun permit in August - no problem.

I applied and acquired a handgun in September - no problem.

On Monday, November 24, 2014, filled out  the forms at HPD to get a permit to acquire a handgun (from a private owner). 

On Tuesday at 6AM, I received a call from the Firearms Section of HPD telling me that I needed another form to have filled out by Kaiser.

I picked up the form and dropped it off for my doctor to sign.

My doctor called me back that same day and told me that he doesn't do this, that Kaiser has a policy not to "approve" firearms purchases.

On Wednesday, November 26, I went to Kaiser and spoke to Daisy at Kaiser Administration, Honolulu Clinic.  She told me she didn't know why but that recently it came to here attention that this is Kaiser's policy because she had received a similar contact from another Kaiser member. She said she will have a "PCE or PCS", a physician I guess, who will contact me about this issue.

I then went to HPD to explain that I was having problems with Kaiser and its "new" policy.  They, the officers at the Firearms window told me that they were aware of this issue with Kaiser and nicely referred me to Harvey Gerwig, President of the HRA, who happened to be there to see an administrator about the issue of medical clearance.

I received the same documents of others as posted already and was given the same "solution"; that is to pay for my own psychologist or doctor to view my records from Kaiser and then sign off as HPD is requesting.

What the letter from HPD's request to the doctor assumes is that the subject has been identified as someone who has been diagnosed as had/has some mental defect or treatment for addiction.   Hence the language that the subject is no longer affected by mental defect of addiction.

The most egregious statement on the letter is that the doctor is "approving" me to acquire and own a firearm and ammunition.  That right there is a legal problem - my doctor doesn't make an approval, he/she can disqualifies me.

But no one will tell me what the problem is exactly.  No one has told me that it was for this or that condition. 

I have been advised that if I don't follow the suggestion to get an independent evaluation and let the permit process play out, I will be rejected after 20 days and then HPD will have to state in a letter why I was rejected.  I believe that a doctor will NOT disqualify me but they will have to right a letter to the positive, which I think is wrong.

However this letter from HPD may be so vague as to say that the medical clearance was not received (for what?).

Perhaps the issue on the confusing communications may be from the HIPPA Act …

What I found interesting in my talking with HPD is that they send a letter to Kaiser for medical clearance.  If they don't receive a reply within the allotted time frame (the first 14 days) they will issue the permit. So NO reply is not problem. 

So in my case something happened because HPD called me in less than 24 hours after I applied.  Since they are not doing it blanket for all Kaiser members, then the possibility is that there has been some correspondence from Kaiser from my last application that has somehow triggered this problem. Harvey Gerwig alluded to this because HPD is so far behind in it's paper work and perhaps Kaiser is too.

Harvey Gerwig told me that there are known issues standing between Kaiser, HPD and the Hawaii State's Attorney General. He told me that even the letter that is sent to Kaiser in the first place he has issues with.  He believes that HPD wants to resolve the issue as it is starting to make there process more and more difficult.

I find it very unsettling that I have to retain a another doctor to sign a letter that I think Kaiser should be required to sign off on.

I smell a lawsuit against Kaiser.

For some clarity on what the law sez:

     §134-7  Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. 
     (a)  No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (b)  No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (c)  No person who:
          (1)  Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
          (2)  Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411;
          (3)  Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes; shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.

For some clarity on what the law sez:

     §134-7  Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty. 
     (a)  No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (b)  No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (c)  No person who:
          (1)  Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound as defined in section 712-1240, or intoxicating liquor;
          (2)  Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect pursuant to section 704-411;
          (3)  Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes; shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect.

I don't expect a detailed answer, but is there anything in your contact with Kaiser ever that might have included mental health services?  Counseling for any emotional situations, stress at work, sex addiction?

I mean, what you may have confided in your doctor could be as non-violent and insignificant as, "I'm not sleeping well.  This divorce is really eating at me.  Can I get a prescription for a sleep aid?"  Most sleep aids, as an example, are extremely easy to abuse and develop addictions to.  Not that you are addicted, but I can see someone wanting to be overly cautious knowing you might still be taking the sleep meds.

Being a Kaiser customer, I worry that if we don't identify what caused these triggers to make HPD place yet another hurdle in your patht, it could happen to anyone.  If it's something easy to avoid, it would be helpful to give others a heads up.


Interestingly, my daughter and I both received letters from our primary care physicians at Kaiser a couple days apart informing us they are planning to retire at the end of December.

That's a big coincidence, and with both choosing to retire just prior to the first of 2015, it makes me wonder if this isn't related to Obamacare somehow.

Anyway, without posting details, a simple yes or no if there was anything that's changed since the Summer which might be a factor with HPD would be helpful.  If not, then we could all be susceptible!

 

It looks like my issue has been resolved as far as Kaiser Permanente is concerned.

Today I spoke to Lisa Teves from Kaiser Permanente and she told me why HPD is requesting that I get a clearance for a handgun permit.

Se said that in August of 2013, Kaiser sent a letter to HPD disqualifying me from getting a permit to acquire.  She then told me that letter was in sent in error.

However since no one contacted them for the August 2013 letter, they didn't do anything.

She said that one of the assistants in the office responsible for the review misinterpreted the information on my record as a disqualification. 

They had a meeting about this with the whole office and discussed what the correct interpretation is for Kaiser to disqualify an applicant. She said they made sure that whomever is looking at the medical records to verify with a supervisor before sending the letter for disqualification to HPD.

The issue was that I had seen a specialist for my diabetes management who is in the behavioral department. The admin person saw that and did not question what the visit to that department was for.

That erroneous letter was sent in August of 2013!

Lisa checked my records and saw that I was correctly checked 4 times for disqualification since August of 2013 in the application process; even with my latest application on November 24th Kaiser sent a letter to HPD stating there was no disqualification for me to acquire a firearm.

She did not know directly about my problem with this application until I complained to the Admin last week.  She reviewed my information and contacted Officer Mau at the Firearms Section to clear this up. She questioned why they were using an old disqualification letter when subsequent approvals had been received. She said she did not get an answer from Officer Mau on this point.  She told HPD Firearms that she is sending another letter to them stating that this letter from August 2013 is a mistake and that my record is clean of any disqualifying information.

So the bottom line is that Kaiser made a mistake and is now making good on it. Lisa said she is sending me a copy of the letter they sent to HPD to clarify that the disqualification in August of 2013 was a mistake.

I asked about the process since my doctor says he doesn't make these approvals and she said that Kaiser responds to ALL requests from HPD on firearms clearances.  My doctor is not involved with this, only a small group is responsible for this function. She said it is rare that they disqualify someone.

She apologized for the error.  I thanked her for following thru on this.

So this week I will go pick up my permit to acquire a 1911 pistol. 

Awesome news and it is a shame you had to go through this.  Thank you for sharing your experience with us here on 2a. 

This is a shining example of how lightly we have to tread to keep our rights when decisions are left to only a handful of beurocrats,  especially when they may have an alternative agenda.  It is too easy to be violated.  Thank you!

It looks like my issue has been resolved as far as Kaiser Permanente is concerned.

Today I spoke to Lisa Teves from Kaiser Permanente and she told me why HPD is requesting that I get a clearance for a handgun permit.

Se said that in August of 2013, Kaiser sent a letter to HPD disqualifying me from getting a permit to acquire.  She then told me that letter was in sent in error.

However since no one contacted them for the August 2013 letter, they didn't do anything.

She said that one of the assistants in the office responsible for the review misinterpreted the information on my record as a disqualification. 

They had a meeting about this with the whole office and discussed what the correct interpretation is for Kaiser to disqualify an applicant. She said they made sure that whomever is looking at the medical records to verify with a supervisor before sending the letter for disqualification to HPD.

The issue was that I had seen a specialist for my diabetes management who is in the behavioral department. The admin person saw that and did not question what the visit to that department was for.

That erroneous letter was sent in August of 2013!

Lisa checked my records and saw that I was correctly checked 4 times for disqualification since August of 2013 in the application process; even with my latest application on November 24th Kaiser sent a letter to HPD stating there was no disqualification for me to acquire a firearm.

She did not know directly about my problem with this application until I complained to the Admin last week.  She reviewed my information and contacted Officer Mau at the Firearms Section to clear this up. She questioned why they were using an old disqualification letter when subsequent approvals had been received. She said she did not get an answer from Officer Mau on this point.  She told HPD Firearms that she is sending another letter to them stating that this letter from August 2013 is a mistake and that my record is clean of any disqualifying information.

So the bottom line is that Kaiser made a mistake and is now making good on it. Lisa said she is sending me a copy of the letter they sent to HPD to clarify that the disqualification in August of 2013 was a mistake.

I asked about the process since my doctor says he doesn't make these approvals and she said that Kaiser responds to ALL requests from HPD on firearms clearances.  My doctor is not involved with this, only a small group is responsible for this function. She said it is rare that they disqualify someone.

She apologized for the error.  I thanked her for following thru on this.

So this week I will go pick up my permit to acquire a 1911 pistol. 

Good news Bullit!!! Gonna start using my C&R to fill up the safe.

Sad to hear about Pete, though. 

.

What I don't like about this is that the way the law is presented, it further makes vets NOT want to seek treatment.

I have lots of friends that are suffering that won't seek help, simply because they know they will get a letter of ineligibility to possess firearms from either the state or the VA.

In a way, this state makes Vets conditions worse.

Yep.  Without assurances that you won't lose your rights summarily by simply seeking counseling, people who just need to work some things out, but are nowhere near dangerous, will avoid the treatment.  That in itself could lead to a bad outcome due to lack of treatment.

No one should lose their rights without due process, starting with an evaluation by a trained and experienced professional. 

Maybe this policy is a tacit admission that the treatment (Rx) is often worse than the disease?  We all suspect these recent mass shooters were on some types of psychiatrist-prescribed meds.  That might be a logical place to start flagging people of higher risk. 

If the side-effects of these drugs include a desire to hurt yourself or others, taking guns away would be prudent ... but so would taking them off that particular prescription!!  Guns are not the only way to act out on medication-induced psychoses. 

No easy answers, so people opt for what is easy -- erring on the side of caution.

I guess you heard about NY State taking away guns from 278 citizens for medical reasons, eh?

Kaiser is creating a paper trail to cover their own ass, in their own mind,
at the expense and inconvenience of its members
and those members not being informed of whats going on
great job, kaiser.

A story with similar circumstances to this situation ...


Military Vet Sought Treatment for ‘Insomnia’ — Days Later, NY Police Officers Were Knocking on His Door: Lawsuit

U.S. Navy veteran and retired police officer Donald Montgomery is suing New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other officials
after his firearms were reportedly confiscated by police after he sought treatment for insomnia.

It all started after Montgomery visited his primary care physician on May 6 and complained about trouble sleeping, the Daily Caller
reported. He claimed to have been suffering from insomnia since moving from a different state. Montgomery then returned
to the hospital again days later for the same problems, except this time he was diagnosed with “Depression; Insomnia” by
hospital staff.

On May 23, Montgomery returned to the hospital yet again with the same symptoms. He reportedly stayed at the hospital for 48 hours
voluntarily for treatment.

In the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York earlier this month, Montgomery alleges that his visit was
wrongly recorded as an involuntary stay.

Montgomery claims in his lawsuit that officials violated his constitutional rights during the ordeal. He also accuses the hospital of violating
his privacy by giving his medical records to state police.

Montgomery is seeking monetary damages, legal fees, and the “striking down and rendering void” of New York’s “Mental Hygiene Law”
on grounds that it represents an “unconstitutional violation of the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/02/military-vet-sought-treatment-for-insomnia-days-later-ny-police-officers-were-knocking-on-his-door-lawsuit/