The Gold Dot Project –Part 2 -Testing some ammo

I knew that the factory spec was 1150fps from a 4” test bbl.
So I expected to get around 1100 from my little gun, a SW3913
with a 3.5 inch stock bbl.

I measured 5 rounds as follows, 1063/1068/1068/1058/1097.
Av=1070 SD=15
So my goal is to get about 1070fps with the Xtreme 124 PHP

Propellant choice:
Alliant suggests 5.8 unique with the speer GD bullet for 1180
Previous tests showed promise with Winchester Super Field
Hogdon suggests 4.8 HP38/231
Alliant also suggests 4.4 Bullseye

Loading:
For this first test, I decided to try 5.4gr of WSF (Super field)
I seated the Xtreme bullets to 1.12” just like the GD ammo
Taper crimped to .375”
I had some Federal Gold Medal Match Primers.
Cases were FC and WIN

Initial Test Results:
Sim test 1 was using WIN cases. I got 1093fps with SD of 17
Sim test 2 was using FC cases. I got 1093fps with SD of 17 also

Point of impact:
The simulated GD ammo hit slightly lower than factory.
Not too bad though. Testing was done off the bench at 25 yds. Point of aim was the bottom of the black circle.
See the pics…

Summary of test results for 7/16/14:
I was pretty close to hitting the goal.
Velocity was 2% over factory so if I cut back to 5.3 WSF then that should get really close to factory speed.
Drawing from previous chronograph data, here are a few other good bets for making your own Gold Dot simulator:
4.9 HP38
4.9 WW231
4.4 Bullseye
5.4 Unique
5.9 Herco
7.4 AA7

Cost Breakdown:
If you do the math, the cost of making your own simulator is something around $7.50 per box of 50.
Unfortunately, as of 7/16/14 the supply of handgun powder in this state is zero as far as I know. However if you are serious about being proficient with your self defense pistol, I strongly recommend making your own simulator ammo and practicing a lot. Even if it means burning up some of your precious powder supply.
Good luck to all you reloaders out there.

aloha OF
excuse the newbie question, but is the objective the same velocity, recoil, or POA/POI as GDHP or all three?
mahalo

aloha OF
excuse the newbie question, but is the objective the same velocity, recoil, or POA/POI as GDHP or all three?
mahalo

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All three, ideally.
That's pretty hard to accomplish, but we're close.
For the most part, velocity and recoil will go hand in hand. There are exceptions.
Point of impact is hard to duplicate because I see where the shell casings can affect the point of impact.
So if you grab a bunch of mixed shells and reload, you will definitely get a bigger shot group.
At normal close encounter range, it won't make much difference. The test targets were shot at 25 yards which is the outer limits for a compact 9mm.
The idea is to inspire confidence with your defense pistol by producing ECONOMICAL AMMO that LOOKS and FEELS like the real thing.
Then you will be more inclined to practice and thus become proficient at  manipulating your chosen tool if the day ever comes when you "meet the elephant".

Which brings another thought to my head. A lot of people in this forum suggest weird compact pistols for self defense.
Do these people ever ACTUALLY SHOOT these things? And if they do, have they shot them ENOUGH to be proficient at handling them in an emergency?

Thanks man
Excellent info, as usual

The xtreme bullets are on sale...free shipping this week till 7.27
That would make these 124 gr hollow points about 86.00 per m landed.

Thanks for the notification on the sale, OF
I bought Montana golds over the 4th of July weekend
Paid about $13 per thousand more than the sale price

Thanks for the notification on the sale, OF
I bought Montana golds over the 4th of July weekend
Paid about $13 per thousand more than the sale price

...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus.

But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.

So in this particular application the cheap bullets are better. Too bad powders for this load is hard to find now.
I heard sec had some pistol powder in... Then sold out in 2 hours.

Awesome project! Thank you very much for sharing!

...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus.

But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.

So in this particular application the cheap bullets are better. Too bad powders for this load is hard to find now.
I heard sec had some pistol powder in... Then sold out in 2 hours.

i was at SEC and we were discussing GDHP and HPD
they said HPD switched from 147 gr to 124 gr
do you know when they did this and why?
i am assuming for higher velocity

i was at SEC and we were discussing GDHP and HPD
they said HPD switched from 147 gr to 124 gr
do you know when they did this and why?
i am assuming for higher velocity

.
...
I would think the guys at security would know when and why the change occurred.
Personally, I don't think it matters much what they use.

FYI. Back when they switched to 9mm around 1991 or so, I did the same project. I simulated the 147 gr winchester q load.
Back then, I could buy the SAME 147 bullet that Winchester used...in bulk...by the case.

This is a bump to update a few things.
1. I'll be posting some numbers with cfe pistol soon. Initial tests look real good.
2. Unfortunately the price of the bullets even with free shipping is about $9 more...95 per m.

Thank you OF.  If and went I start doing 9mm this thread will be a GREAT help, saving time and money!  You DA BEST!

i found these online. interesting stuff about those factory ammo.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9mm-115gr-speer-gold-dot-jhp/120/

when scrolled at the middle, you will find the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. as Oldfart is simulating

when scrolled at the middle, you will find the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. as Oldfart is simulating

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If you are really sharp you will notice that Mr. Shadow found 6 gr. of flat ball powder.
I did not want to muddle the issue but since it presents itself, here we go....
When dissecting Speer GD rounds, I had some ammo from different lots.
The lot that I test fired had about 5.3 gr. of flat ball.
A round from a different lot contained 6.2 gr of flat ball.

Wassup with dat???

If you do enough reading on ammunition manufacturing, you will find out that large manufacturers don't usually use canister grade powder.
They receive a lot (as in one batch) of powder and adjust their machines to achieve the desired effect. So you can pick up a box of GD today and compare it with a box from years ago and it will shoot the same way.
They probably have much different powder inside, but they still shoot the same. That is what really matters isn't it?

So then why did I only present the 5.3 gr load? Because if you dive further back in this forum, I did the XTP project which was simulating Hornady XTP 124 gr factory ammo.
Guess how much much powder was in that ammo? ....5.5 grains of flat flakes, possibly flat ball..
Therefore I wanted to pursue a handload that produced the correct velocity with a powder charge in the 5.4 gr range.
FYI here is a 60x photo of the flat powder that was in the Hornady xtp ammo. See attachment.

Does any of this really matter? No. not really. All that matters is that we get a similar shape/weight bullet and throw it downrange at the same speed as whatever the factory ammo does.

...
Montana gold are premium bullets. I love them. They are better than most. But I don't drive a lexus.

But seriously, if mg made a bullet similar to the gold dot, I would have bought those instead.
But their 124 hp is not the right profile...not even close.

Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?

Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets?  If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.

Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?

Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets?  If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.

wirecounter
oldfart is saying that his equivalent "head" to GDHP is the extreme, and these are cheaper than MG
he is testing 124 gr extreme and trying to come up with a practice equivalent to the factory speer GDHP

wirecounter
oldfart is saying that his equivalent "head" to GDHP is the extreme, and these are cheaper than MG
he is testing 124 gr extreme and trying to come up with a practice equivalent to the factory speer GDHP

...
Thanks for explaining the idea. In a perfect world, we mortals would be able to practice with the real thing.
Alas, such is not the case.
The best I can hope for is an affordable round with similar profile, weight, and speed.
 Point of impact can vary with shell casings, but at close range it's not so bad.

Are not MG HP bullets manufactured for target/competition shooting, whereas Speer GD HP bullets are for self defense application?

Also, the GD bullets are more than twice the cost of the MG bullets?  If you have a source for the GD where it costs less than the MG, please let us know.

if you want gold dots to reload wideners has them, actually the price seems comparable to MG per 100, and it can perform as a SD round if needed, whereas MG is not a good SD round....  they don't expand properly.


https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=2038&dir=

However, using your reloads in a SD situation is a bad idea, so I've been told.  In an emergency different story...